Truly this argument has indeed reached the point of drudgery. Now let me put it to tiarabu, have the holy spirit fulfill the promise, if yes, how have the holy spirit fulfill the promise?

maclatunji:

^And you fail to grasp that Jesus and his gospel are a part of our religion.

Hey, make we no derail into why Jesus enter the Koran oh. It was part of your religion to lure in the Christians and get sympathy from the Jews.

There was NO record of Muhammed or Islam or Muslims in either the Bible or the Torah. Interestingly, even manuscripts, for example, the dead sea scrolls dated 408 BCE and 318 CE BEFORE Islam, has no record of Islam, Mohammed or Islam. If blotting out Islam from these books were a conspiracy, the manuscripts found to have existed BEFORE Muhammed or Islam or Muslims should have exposed such conspiracy. All we are left with are strenuous efforts from you guys to twist and turn trying to conjure Prophet Muhammed's name into the Bible. If Jesus mentioned a certain Ahmed to come after him, it would have resonated throughout history and would have shown up somewhere and somehow.

We can dissect the Bible and pick any truths we want from it.

That disseection includes lifting verses out of context, abi? We have seen that in several instances. If the Bible is corrupt, how can you determine what is true in it? What makes you think that the very text you lift from it to support Muhammed are true? Such is the incredulity of your contradiction.

It is purely for debating with the likes of you. As for our daily lives and relationship with God, the Qur'an and teachings of the Prophet (SAW) are more than enough.

For the reasons I stated above, your debates are therefore based on false premise & conjectures, fluid interpretations, and illogical conclusions.

See tiara claiming the Bible like it is her personal inheritance.

The Bible is not only my personal inheritance but for all who accepted Christ as he directed do himself in Mark 16:15

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

You could have a claim if you so wish.

@Tiarabubu:

by tiarabubu: 10:54am
Hey, make we no derail into why Jesus enter the Koran oh. It was part of your religion to lure in the Christians and get sympathy from the Jews.

One wonders what led the Jews to a specific place; Yatrib [now Madina], an oasis in dirt patch arabia? There must have been a divine reason, a place that finally saw and served as the home and the resting place of the last prophet [sa]. What was it? This is your mission impossible, tiarabubu.

There was NO record of Muhammed or Islam or Muslims in either the Bible or the Torah.

there was No record of Jesus or Christianity or Christians in the Torah or Psalm. Why? When you get why, apply it to your statement.

Interestingly, even manuscripts, for example, the dead sea scrolls dated 408 BCE and 318 CE BEFORE Islam, has no record of Islam, Mohammed or Islam. If blotting out Islam from these books were a conspiracy, the manuscripts found to have existed BEFORE Muhammed or Islam or Muslims should have exposed such conspiracy.

ave you heard the jewish rabbi saying Muhammmadim in the songs of Solomon? You people translated it to "he is together lovely". Think about it.

All we are left with are strenuous efforts from you guys to twist and turn trying to conjure Prophet Muhammed's name into the Bible. If Jesus mentioned a certain Ahmed to come after him, it would have resonated throughout history and would have shown up somewhere and somehow.

Here are your problems:
A}. Moses was told a prophet like him will be raised among his brethren. That statement does not exclude Muhammad [sa]


B]. John was asked if he was Elijah or The Christ or The Prophet. He said none of them. Jesus said John was the greatest prophet born of a woman from the children of Israel. Jesus was born of a woman. Jesus further stated that John is Elijah. How can Jesus made the greatest Israelite prophet, John a man lying or who does not know himself being Elijah? How can Jesus not know that John said he is not Elijah? You see John and Jesus disagreeing with each other?


C]. Jesus said his disciples are people of little faith. So he told them a comforter after him will set records straight because when that comforter arrives, there will be a lie as the norm and this comforter must set things straight by correcting it.

If we do not say more than the above, what will come to mind are in regard to issue a], who really was the prophet if we looked at who is like Moses? We will not find Jesus in this group, or shall we find Paul. Muhammad [sa] is still not excluded being a prophet and a cousin of the jews. In issue b], we must be tempted to ask if Jesus or John or some others is/are wrong here?


Jesus and John could not be wrong or against each other. It has to be others, the Bible scribes who were inspired not firmly and decisively and final by what inspired them, since there are many versions of the Bibles and we ave not settled on a single, worldwide universally accepted Bible for all Christians. finally in issue c], we must find who fits the another comforter after Jesus had left by researching any religious personality who speaks out claiming what he spoke was what he heard from God, correcting, leading, etc even restoring faith in Jesus for the spiritual enrichment of man.


such a man must be a prophet like any comforter before him. Muhammad [sa] fits snugly into each a, b and c. We have the Quran, Hadith and Sunnah and the fact that Islam and not judaism or christianity is the religion of Adam [as] and his righteous wife and household, religion of Enoch, Noah and those who entered the boat with him, relgion of Ibrahim and his family on which agreement and Friendship became reality between he and God, religion of all prophets including the man Jesus [as].

That disseection includes lifting verses out of context, abi?

God is 1 says the OT. NT Jesus says "Oh Israel, your Lord, my Lord is 1 God". NT Paul: "Jesus is Lord, God". How do the muslims lift any of these verses out of context, since they are so direct and elementary?

We have seen that in several instances. If the Bible is corrupt, how can you determine what is true in it?

You determine corruption by what does not make sense, what confuses, in the same sense when somebody tells you lafun from cassava is garri from cassava. They look different, smel different, taste different. Neither can pass for the other.

What makes you think that the very text you lift from it to support Muhammed are true?

if they are not true Quran wins because it maintains that the Bible scribes already changed the truth including misplacing words from its rightful place. I see Muhammadim now he is together lovely.

Such is the incredulity of your contradiction.

We are only humans, if that is true. The Bible should not make mistakes like us the muslims because the holy spirit inspired it, remember? We see Quran as accurate the reason we investigate your Bible and draw out what agrees with the Quran and what the heart can accept within practical and logically analysis.

The Bible is not only my personal inheritance but for all who accepted Christ as he directed do himself in Mark 16:15

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the houses of Israel. One would wonder what is a lost sheep here, except those in misguidance, deviants from the original truth. What is the original truth except what was given to Moses, since Jesus said that the laws and prophets before him he came to live and advocated that no one should not live it or advised any to not live it.


After Jesus, Paul came in and made the man Jesus who had to obey what Moses brought, the very God, regardless of what Jesus said about his being powerless, obedience to God, and declaration that Ellah is his God, in the same way The God of all. Paul made Jesus to a liar, elevating him and demoting God to the level of man. Is there any greater confusion?

maclatunji:

^And you fail to grasp that Jesus and his gospel are a part of our religion. We can dissect the Bible and pick any truths we want from it. It is purely for debating with the likes of you. As for our daily lives and relationship with God, the Qur'an and teachings of the Prophet (SAW) are more than enough.

See tiara claiming the Bible like it is her personal inheritance.

keep picking the lettters without profit THE LETTER KILL BUT THE SPIRIT IS LIFE.

WHATEVER YOU PICK DOES NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH THAT KEEPS HAUNTING.

MOST MUSLIM NO THAT THERE IS SOMETHING IN CHRISTAINITY THAN WHAT ISLAM OFFERS BUT IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE

SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? SELF DENIAL AND TWISTING OF THE WORD OF GOD.

I PRAY YOUR EYE BE OPEN. CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SO REAL.

@Manmacho: God's word, you said above?

What about this: 1Corinthians 7 verse 25

The Revised Standard Version (RSV) reads:

"Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion (gnomen) as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy."

Here Paul is qualifying himself as trustworthy. In america, such a self qualification is ground for accusation of lying or something awful to happen. when a person says trust me, watch out.

Muhammad [sa] was accepted by even his enemies as the most trustworthy.


and this : 2 Timothy 4 verse 13

New International Version (©1984)
When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.

What God needing a cloak for the already cloaked Paul? or scrolls [Jewish], and the parchments.


i intentionally ignore the mundane parts of the NT like the unending once upon a time information or the dead people waking up and going to the city, the end.

manmacho:

keep picking the lettters without profit THE LETTER KILL BUT THE SPIRIT IS LIFE.

WHATEVER YOU PICK DOES NOT CHANGE THE TRUTH THAT KEEPS HAUNTING.

MOST MUSLIM NO THAT THERE IS SOMETHING IN CHRISTAINITY THAN WHAT ISLAM OFFERS BUT IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE

SO WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? SELF DENIAL AND TWISTING OF THE WORD OF GOD.

I PRAY YOUR EYE BE OPEN. CHRIST AND THE HOLY SPIRIT IS SO REAL.

You talking about self-denial? Wonders indeed shall never end.after all the proof presented both proving the 'comforter' cannot be the christian 'holy spirit' and also proving it is Muhammad (sa),tiarabubu is using 'strong head' to be in self-denial.if self-denial is lethal both of you would have being dead by now.

To salvage her tiny faith in whatever she's defending,she's pulling redherrings to altogether deny Muhammad (sa) mentioned in the bible.I earlier in this thread presented links to other threads of the several places in the bible the holy Prophet (sa) is mentioned.it is indeed shocking that fanatical christians can claim the bible even prophecies about the soviet union and other of america's political situations,but they ironically believe their bible mentions nothing about Muhammad (sa)-alas not even a note of condemnation-about the great man who changed history and single-handedly made the most impact on human life.most likely the christians got this skill from the jews who deny Jesus (as) inspite of the fact that christians can spot a million and one prophecies in jewish scripture about Jesus (as).

As my brother,Sweetnecta,earlier pointed out,the christians today should find out what the jews before Muhammad (sa) who migrated to medina actually went there for.what was the reason the jews migrated to medina?

LagosShia:

You talking about self-denial? Wonders indeed shall never end.after all the proof presented both proving the 'comforter' cannot be the christian 'holy spirit' and also proving it is Muhammad (sa),tiarabubu is using 'strong head' to be in self-denial.if self-denial is lethal both of you would have being dead by now.

Please stop being funny. What proof? Jesus gave 5 attributes of the comforter, Prophet Muhammad couldn't make even one out of five of the attributes and you say you gave proof? How? 0/5 is not a pass mark oh!

To salvage her tiny faith in whatever she's defending,she's pulling redherrings to altogether deny Muhammad (sa) mentioned in the bible.I earlier in this thread presented links to other threads of the several places in the bible the holy Prophet (sa) is mentioned.it is indeed shocking that fanatical christians can claim the bible even prophecies about the soviet union and other of america's political situations,but they ironically believe their bible mentions nothing about Muhammad (sa)-alas not even a note of condemnation-about the great man who changed history and single-handedly made the most impact on human life.most likely the christians got this skill from the jews who deny Jesus (as) inspite of the fact that christians can spot a million and one prophecies in jewish scripture about Jesus (as).

Ironically the Bible does mention Prophet Muhammad. It's in Mathew 7:15-18

As my brother,Sweetnecta,earlier pointed out,the christians today should find out what the jews before Muhammad (sa) who migrated to medina actually went there for.what was the reason the jews migrated to medina?

The Jews of medina arrived there after the Jewish-Roman wars ( of 66–73 AD, 132–135 AD and 115–117 which left an epic impact on the Jews, turning them from a major population in the Eastern Mediterranean to a scattered and persecuted minority). I'm Arabia they introduced agriculture putting them in a culturally, economically and politically in a dominant position than their Arab neighbour. (encyclopedia of Islam "Al-Medina"

@Tiarabubu:

by tiarabubu: 10:45pm On Sep 06
Please stop being funny. What proof? Jesus gave 5 attributes of the comforter, Prophet Muhammad couldn't make even one out of five of the attributes and you say you gave proof? How? 0/5 is not a pass mark oh!

Is audible speech one of them? Muhammad [sa] had a speech people heard. The people were wrong before the were made right by what they heard from him. If audible speech, correcting, making people from disbelief to belief, are parts of the the 5 parts, then Muhammad had all the 3. Then lets talk about leading to all truth, rebuking the world of sins, reminding people all that is true from Jesus, praising Jesus. Each Muhammad [sa] excelled in.

How do you lead to all truth except you let people know the arithmetic of 3 is not 1 and 1 is not 3 and God is not tribal but Universal God, Lord The Creator, Who is 1 and worthy of all worship and no one else is worthy with Him. The greatest sin is the sin of not correctly acknowledging God: making Him a tribal God, making man and ghost out of Him, making Him more than 1 and saying He is non existence or irrelevant.

I ignore the He in the description of the Another Comforter because that will be a male, a gender that Muhammad [sa] belonged. God is neither a male or female. I am assuming that you are talking about the same ghost that overshadowed Mary to get her pregnant, here?

Ironically the Bible does mention Prophet Muhammad. It's in Mathew 7:15-18 Matthew 7:15-20

New International Version (NIV)
True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Is any of these about Muhammad [sa] who came 610 years after it was spoken, yet he would not be analyzed as the possible Another comforter, with audible speech when there is a need to correct people from the wrong belief, steering them on the right path and tell them that God is One by the Mercy and in The Name of God? Muhammad [sa] was never a pretender. He started his ministry by telling the truth so much so that so many of his family members rejected the truth and one in particular, Abu Lahab [lana] became his enemy till he died as an everlasting enemy. Abu Lahab was told he will die as a disbeliever 10 years before his death. He was a disbeliever through the 10 years not able to disproof the Quranic verdict upon him. This alone is enough to show Muhammad [sa] was a true prophet of God. The jews will say Jesus was a false prophet because he said God is now 3 according to the NT, even though the same Jesus agreed with OT that God Lord is 1 before. As a Muslim, it was Muhammad [sa] who made me recognize Jesus as a true prophet of God, allowing me to see where both OT and NT agreed and allows me to see where the Bible writers lied upon God, Angels, prophets and prophet Jesus [as]. Muslims are ever struggling to be the exact grapes of Muhammad [sa] vineyard, instead of the christians ever the thorn bushes of the grapevines of Jesus.

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

When judaism does not bear fruits because it is not from God, it is replaced by christianity which unfortunately came from the people and not from God. Islam is the religion from God on man. God stated it in the Quran. And below are what jews and others say about Islam:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9a6blduFb0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzoMJfJCR0I&feature=related


even an atheist gets in on the act.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrG8ooymBKA&feature=related

so does glen beck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3sjnUecWqY&feature=related



Is there any reason for Jews to choose Yatrib over other places in the middle east as they did at the time they did?

Below is an answer and you could do better research than talking about agriculture for a people who hold so highly in spiritual matters: It must be spiritual, tiarabubu. By the way Raheeq-alMakhtum means SEALED NECTAR.
my name is sweetnecta, because i do not want to bear SEALED NECTAR, which is a description of Muhammad [sa].

Extracts from Raheeq-alMakhtum:

The Jewish traditions spoke of a prophet who would come to/from Yathrib:

The Madinese always heard the Jews say that a Prophet was about to rise, for the time for a new dispensation had arrived. Him they would follow and then smite their enemies as the children of ‘Ad and Iram had been smitten. [Rahmat-al-lil'alameen 1/84; Ibn Hisham 1/429; Za'd Al-Ma'ad 2/50]

The people of Yathrib recognised Muhammed as the prophet the Jews spoke of during their first meeting:

"Of what tribe are you?" asked the Prophet. "Of the tribe of Khazraj," they replied. "Are you the allies of the Jews?" The Prophet enquired. They said: "Yes." "Then why not sit down for a little and I will speak to you." The offer was readily accepted for the fame of Muhammad had spread to Madinah and the strangers were curious to see more of the man who had created a stir in the whole area. The Prophet presented to them an expose of Islam, explained its implications, and the responsibilities that fell upon the men who accepted it. When the Prophet concluded his talk, they exchanged among themselves ideas to the following effect: "Know surely, this is the Prophet with whom the Jews are ever threatening us; wherefore let us make haste and be the first to join him."

They, therefore, embraced Islam, and said to the Prophet, "We have left our community for no tribe is so divided by hatred and rancour as they are. Allâh may cement our ties through you. So let us go and invite them to this religion of yours...". . .

tiarabubu:

Please stop being funny. What proof? Jesus gave 5 attributes of the comforter, Prophet Muhammad couldn't make even one out of five of the attributes and you say you gave proof? How? 0/5 is not a pass mark oh!

1.he will guide you into all truth.
2. He wil not speak on his own;
3. he will speak only what he hears,
4. and he will tell you what is yet to come.
5.He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

I can prove Muhammad (sa) did all of the above.but no one on this earth can prove his 'holy spirit' has done any of the above.

Ironically the Bible does mention Prophet Muhammad. It's in Mathew 7:15-18

This is what Matthew 7:15-18 says:

"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit".

The above is a warning containing general statements about anyone you or I disagree with,including Paul who never see or meet Jesus (as),Joseph Smith and T.B. Joshua.there is nothing in those verses about Muhammad (sa) or relating to him.you're applying them based on your blind interpretation and prejudice.

The Jews of medina arrived there after the Jewish-Roman wars ( of 66–73 AD, 132–135 AD and 115–117 which left an epic impact on the Jews, turning them from a major population in the Eastern Mediterranean to a scattered and persecuted minority). I'm Arabia they introduced agriculture putting them in a culturally, economically and politically in a dominant position than their Arab neighbour. (encyclopedia of Islam "Al-Medina"

The first jewish revolt against roman rule was over 500 years before Muhammad (sa) was born.therefore the revolts are not a reason why according to the jews themselves who moved to Medina just around the time the holy Prophet (sa) was born,they went there for a reason.arabia was not an habitable or hospitable place for people seeking refuge.the people and the environment were harsh.the jews were scattered everywhere but their presence in arabia was precisely for a reason which is supported in your own bible that you have with you today.I can bring you those verses about arabia (the wilderness of paran).

Habakkuk 3:3
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise".

Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south (the Prophet migrated from Makkah to Medina,known as hijra), from his mountain slopes.

The Battle of Badr and the First Muslim Victory in the Bible

Isaiah 21:13–17
An oracle concerning Arabia:You caravans of Dedanites,who camp in the thickets of Arabia,⁠14⁠bring water for the thirsty;you who live in Tema,bring food for the fugitives. 15⁠They flee from the sword,from the drawn sword,from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. 16⁠This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. ⁠17⁠The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.

The Jews Knew When Prophet Muhammad (sa) Would Come

"The Fifth Kingdom(of God) In The Bible Prophecy Of The Book "DANIEL 2" Is Islam!"
https://www.nairaland.com/772940/fifth-kingdom-god-bible-prophecy

@ Sweetnecta

Sir, you would notice that I seldom reply your post. No disrespect intended but I find them incoherent and verbose. So, I will side step them for the time being until you are more concise and to the point. I am sorry.

LagosShia:
1.he will guide you into all truth.
2. He wil not speak on his own;
3. he will speak only what he hears,
4. and he will tell you what is yet to come.
5.He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you.

I can prove Muhammad (sa) did all of the above.but no one on this earth can prove his 'holy spirit' has done any of the above.

1. Which truth did he guide us to? Confusing the holy Spirit with Mary? Stating things that Jesus didnt say? cursing the very people who follow Christ? Pray which truth? I will not bother elaborating as it has been sufficiently dealt with in this forum

2. He wil not speak on his own; On whose authority? His sytle and that of Jesus were SO FAR apart that he could not have spoken from the same authority Jesus did.

3. he will speak only what he hears,: Give the vast differences between his message and that of Jesus, its obvious that what he heard was not from the same source as Jesus. The confidence and authority Jesus weilded was absent in Muhammed who sought refuse from Satan. Jesus was sinless but Muhammed acknowledges his sin. Jesus never killed or ordered any killed dispite Roman and fellow jewish persecution, Prophet Muhammed well....you know the story.

4. and he will tell you what is yet to come. Which was?

5.He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. What glory did he bring to Jesus? Denying his death, misidentifying important events around his ministry etc

Now to the areas where Jesus gave the comforters attributes, which you cleverly side stepped:

(i)John 14:16 — And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever

Is The Prophet with us? Forever?!

(ii)- the Spirit of Truth.

Is the Prophet (Muhammed) a spirit?

(iii) John 14:17 — But you know him for he lives with you

What the prophet with the diciples around 1 AD? Remember Muhammed lived aroud 620 AD! over 600 year later

(iv) and will be in you.

Can the Prophet live in someone?

(v) John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

How many of Jesus' sayings did Muhammed relay? Please educate me. Feel free to quote the Hadith and the Sunna (both strong, weak and anyone)


Typical of you to pick verses in isolation and try to force feed your audience.

This is what Matthew 7:15-18 says:

"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit".

The above is a warning containing general statements about anyone you or I disagree with,including Paul who never see or meet Jesus (as),Joseph Smith and T.B. Joshua.there is nothing in those verses about Muhammad (sa) or relating to him.you're applying them based on your blind interpretation and prejudice.

For saying things we know Jesus didn't say, for misrepresenting the Christian faith (eg Mary part of the "trinity", for asking the murder of apostates, for the deaths he caused in the name of the God he professes, etc, is it surprising we think so?

You even gave me an additional reason - I disagree with him.

The first jewish revolt against roman rule was over 500 years before Muhammad (sa) was born.therefore the revolts are not a reason why according to the jews themselves who moved to Medina just around the time the holy Prophet (sa) was born,they went there for a reason.arabia was not an habitable or hospitable place for people seeking refuge.the people and the environment were harsh.the jews were scattered everywhere but their presence in arabia was precisely for a reason which is supported in your own bible that you have with you today.I can bring you those verses about arabia (the wilderness of paran).

The Jews are not known to fear harsh environments. That is why in less than 40 years they have converted a harsh desert of the present day Isreal (which was largely agriculturally unproductive) into an agricultural wonder. the Jews are a major food exporter all over the world.

After the Jewish-Roman wars, Jews were found all over the known world. They settled whereever they were tolerated. This is why there are Jews all over the middle east including areas that were harsher than Arabia. Go read the encyclopedia of Islam "Al-Medina" for more scholarly research on the matter. Its better than making assumptions you know.

Habakkuk 3:3
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise".

Deuteronomy 33:2
"He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south (the Prophet migrated from Makkah to Medina,known as hijra), from his mountain slopes.

The Battle of Badr and the First Muslim Victory in the Bible

Isaiah 21:13–17
An oracle concerning Arabia:You caravans of Dedanites,who camp in the thickets of Arabia,⁠14⁠bring water for the thirsty;you who live in Tema,bring food for the fugitives. 15⁠They flee from the sword,from the drawn sword,from the bent bow and from the heat of battle. 16⁠This is what the Lord says to me: “Within one year, as a servant bound by contract would count it, all the pomp of Kedar will come to an end. ⁠17⁠The survivors of the bowmen, the warriors of Kedar, will be few.” The Lord, the God of Israel, has spoken.

The Jews Knew When Prophet Muhammad (sa) Would Come

"The Fifth Kingdom(of God) In The Bible Prophecy Of The Book "DANIEL 2" Is Islam!"
https://www.nairaland.com/772940/fifth-kingdom-god-bible-prophecy

Oh dear! Here is LagosShia trying hard to find Muhammed in the "corrupt" Bible again! To debunk this your lines will mean I will digress from the topic. Fortunately, I have come across threads where these issues were trashed out (such as the one you provided) so i will throw a few scenarios to open up the matter.

In the same Bible that you claim Paran is in Arabia, consider the following;

(i)Hadad the Edomite, during the reign of Solomon, escaped to Egypt when he was a boy (1 Kings 11:17). "They set out from Midian and went to Paran. Then taking men from Paran with them, they went to Egypt..." (1 Kings 11:8-19). To think that Hadad set out from Midian (which is south east (SE) of Israel, near the Sinai in the Arabian Peninsula, go up north east east (NEE) to "Paran" (Mecca), then somehow end up in Egypt (south west of Mecca) is unthinkable.

(ii)The Israelites left Sinai (after receiving the Law) for the Desert of Paran (Numbers 10:12), on the way passing through Kibroth Hattavah (Numbers 11:34), Hazeroth (Numbers 12:16), and settling at Kadesh [Barnea] of Paran (Numbers 13:26), which is the northern part of the desert. From Paran, spies were sent to Canaan to check out the land (Numbers 13:3). The spies' exploration took them from Paran through the Desert of Zin (south of Israel), Rehob, Lebo Hamath, Negev, Hebron (Numbers 13:21-22). The southern boundary of the Israelite promised land is given as "Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary wll start from the end of the Salt Sea [i.e. Dead Sea], cross south of the Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kadesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn, join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the Sea [i.e., Mediterranean]" (Numbers 34:3-5). Zin and Kadesh are clearly to the south of Israel, so to demand that Paran is on the east of Israel requies an impossible boundary. Also, how ON EARTH could the spies have trekked from Arabia to the present day Isreal! Na wa!

(iii) "And this is the blessing wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death and he said, 'The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Mount Seir upon them; he shone forth from Mount Paran he came from ten thousands of holy ones: with flaming fire at his right hand. Yea, he loved His people; all those consecrated to him were in his hand: so they followed in thy feet, receiving direction from thee, when Moses commanded us a law, as a possession for the congregation of Jacob. Thus the Lord became King in Jeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together." (Deuteronomy 33:1-5). And the Prophet cursed the Jews whose text validated him? How could Moses had bless Israel when the present day Arabs so despise the Jews and are in constant "war" with. Surely, if Muhammed was the one in that text, pray tell, how was he a "blessing" to the Jews?




So the "Lord God of Isreal" validated your prophet and now you guys conveniently shout "death to the filthy Jews!", "wipe Isreal off the Map", "push them into the sea" lol! So you guys have not considered the prophecies about Isreal reclaiming their land in the same Bible too?. Are you blind to that?

^

Madam tiaramumu,

You are basing your entire post on disputing the location of paran or the wilderness of paran.however the prophecies I presented are not all based on that point-but only one prophecy is.you've also gone further to repeat old arguments,in particular about us quoting from the 'corrupt bible' when that point have already being discussed and clarified in this very thread.I should bring to your knowledge that the wilderness of paran is reported in bible sources to be identified with arabia.

You are questioning the location of paran in a relative manner,tying it to the location of mount sinai.archaelogical evidence now available have pointed out that biblical mount sinai is in fact located in modern day saudi arabia,very close to Makkah.it is identified as Jabal al-lawz.the dispute is where biblical mount sinai is located.since you want to portray yourself as a reasonable person,which obviously you're not,I should bring to your knowledge that the bible report that the israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years.if mount sinai is to be associated with modern day sinai peninsula in egypt,which has a maritime boundary with the west of present day saudi arabia,I fail to see why they wandered in egypt which is just nearby for 40 years!!!it is only reasonable that the 40 years spent in the desert refers to the wide expanse of the arabia desert in the arabian peninsula rather than in mount sinai which shares a short and small boundary with palestine,the home and destination of the israelites.

Let me also make one sound reasoning to believe that mount sinai is in arabia and the israelites crossed the sea from egypt into arabia and wandered in the arabian desert.according to the bible,Moses (as) never stepped foot in the holy land.he was even buried outside of palestine,somewhere in present-day Jordan,north of arabia.also according to the bible,Moses (as) was in Midian which is identified as to the north of arabia.if the bible says Moses (as) didn't step foot in the holy land,then how did he get to Midian,north of arabia around Jordan,if not from southward through arabia?did he use flight from egypt to midian flying over palestine without a stop over?!

I pray you think! I can clearly notice you cannot refute the prophecies presented.so instead you're throwing doubt which portrays your ignorance.

As for israel reclaiming its land,the palestinian people who are mostly muslims have israelite and jewish heritage too and are indigenous and entitled to have that land too.among the palestinians is also canaanite ancestry.the canaanites preceeded the birth of Abraham (as) himself in palestine.whether using religion,heritage or history,the palestinian people have more right and bigger case to lay claim to the land

tiarabubu:



1. Which truth did he guide us to? Confusing the holy Spirit with Mary? Stating things that Jesus didnt say? cursing the very people who follow Christ? Pray which truth? I will not bother elaborating as it has been sufficiently dealt with in this forum

2. He wil not speak on his own; On whose authority? His sytle and that of Jesus were SO FAR apart that he could not have spoken from the same authority Jesus did.

3. he will speak only what he hears,: Give the vast differences between his message and that of Jesus, its obvious that what he heard was not from the same source as Jesus. The confidence and authority Jesus weilded was absent in Muhammed who sought refuse from Satan. Jesus was sinless but Muhammed acknowledges his sin. Jesus never killed or ordered any killed dispite Roman and fellow jewish persecution, Prophet Muhammed well....you know the story.

4. and he will tell you what is yet to come. Which was?

5.He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. What glory did he bring to Jesus? Denying his death, misidentifying important events around his ministry etc

Now to the areas where Jesus gave the comforters attributes, which you cleverly side stepped:

(i)John 14:16 — And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever

Is The Prophet with us? Forever?!

(ii)- the Spirit of Truth.

Is the Prophet (Muhammed) a spirit?

(iii) John 14:17 — But you know him for he lives with you

What the prophet with the diciples around 1 AD? Remember Muhammed lived aroud 620 AD! over 600 year later

(iv) and will be in you.

Can the Prophet live in someone?

(v) John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

How many of Jesus' sayings did Muhammed relay? Please educate me. Feel free to quote the Hadith and the Sunna (both strong, weak and anyone)


Typical of you to pick verses in isolation and try to force feed your audience.







For saying things we know Jesus didn't say, for misrepresenting the Christian faith (eg Mary part of the "trinity", for asking the murder of apostates, for the deaths he caused in the name of the God he professes, etc, is it surprising we think so?

You even gave me an additional reason - I disagree with him.





The Jews are not known to fear harsh environments. That is why in less than 40 years they have converted a harsh desert of the present day Isreal (which was largely agriculturally unproductive) into an agricultural wonder. the Jews are a major food exporter all over the world.

After the Jewish-Roman wars, Jews were found all over the known world. They settled whereever they were tolerated. This is why there are Jews all over the middle east including areas that were harsher than Arabia. Go read the encyclopedia of Islam "Al-Medina" for more scholarly research on the matter. Its better than making assumptions you know.



Oh dear! Here is LagosShia trying hard to find Muhammed in the "corrupt" Bible again! To debunk this your lines will mean I will digress from the topic. Fortunately, I have come across threads where these issues were trashed out (such as the one you provided) so i will throw a few scenarios to open up the matter.

In the same Bible that you claim Paran is in Arabia, consider the following;

(i)Hadad the Edomite, during the reign of Solomon, escaped to Egypt when he was a boy (1 Kings 11:17). "They set out from Midian and went to Paran. Then taking men from Paran with them, they went to Egypt..." (1 Kings 11:8-19). To think that Hadad set out from Midian (which is south east (SE) of Israel, near the Sinai in the Arabian Peninsula, go up north east east (NEE) to "Paran" (Mecca), then somehow end up in Egypt (south west of Mecca) is unthinkable.

(ii)The Israelites left Sinai (after receiving the Law) for the Desert of Paran (Numbers 10:12), on the way passing through Kibroth Hattavah (Numbers 11:34), Hazeroth (Numbers 12:16), and settling at Kadesh [Barnea] of Paran (Numbers 13:26), which is the northern part of the desert. From Paran, spies were sent to Canaan to check out the land (Numbers 13:3). The spies' exploration took them from Paran through the Desert of Zin (south of Israel), Rehob, Lebo Hamath, Negev, Hebron (Numbers 13:21-22). The southern boundary of the Israelite promised land is given as "Your southern side will include some of the Desert of Zin along the border of Edom. On the east, your southern boundary wll start from the end of the Salt Sea [i.e. Dead Sea], cross south of the Scorpion Pass, continue on to Zin and go south of Kadesh Barnea. Then it will go to Hazar Addar and over to Azmon, where it will turn, join the Wadi of Egypt and end at the Sea [i.e., Mediterranean]" (Numbers 34:3-5). Zin and Kadesh are clearly to the south of Israel, so to demand that Paran is on the east of Israel requies an impossible boundary. Also, how ON EARTH could the spies have trekked from Arabia to the present day Isreal! Na wa!

(iii) "And this is the blessing wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death and he said, 'The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Mount Seir upon them; he shone forth from Mount Paran he came from ten thousands of holy ones: with flaming fire at his right hand. Yea, he loved His people; all those consecrated to him were in his hand: so they followed in thy feet, receiving direction from thee, when Moses commanded us a law, as a possession for the congregation of Jacob. Thus the Lord became King in Jeshurun when the heads of the people were gathered, all the tribes of Israel together." (Deuteronomy 33:1-5). And the Prophet cursed the Jews whose text validated him? How could Moses had bless Israel when the present day Arabs so despise the Jews and are in constant "war" with. Surely, if Muhammed was the one in that text, pray tell, how was he a "blessing" to the Jews?




So the "Lord God of Isreal" validated your prophet and now you guys conveniently shout "death to the filthy Jews!", "wipe Isreal off the Map", "push them into the sea" lol! So you guys have not considered the prophecies about Isreal reclaiming their land in the same Bible too?. Are you blind to that?

tiarabubu:So the "Lord God of Isreal" validated your prophet and now you guys conveniently shout "death to the filthy Jews!", "wipe Isreal off the Map", "push them into the sea" lol! So you guys have not considered the prophecies about Isreal reclaiming their land in the same Bible too?. Are you blind to that?

[size=14pt]JESUS,INSULTS AND THE JEWS[/size]

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 8:44
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Mathew 23:33
"You[b] serpents[/b], you generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell"?

Mathew 12:34
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks".

Mathew 12:39
"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

Mathew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

LagosShia: ^

Madam tiaramumu,

Yes Lagosliar...

You are basing your entire post on disputing the location of paran or the wilderness of paran.however the prophecies I presented are not all based on that point-but only one prophecy is.you've also gone further to repeat old argument about us quoting from the 'corrupt bible' when that point have already being discussed and clarified in this very thread.I should bring to your knowledge that the wilderness of paran is reported in bible sources to be identified with arabia.

You are questioning the location of paran in a relative manner,tying it to the location of mount sinai.archaelogical evidence now available have pointed out that biblical mount sinai is in fact located in modern day saudi arabia,very close to Makkah.it is identified as Jabal al-lawz.the dispute is where biblical mount sinai is located.since you want to portray yourself as a reasonable person,which obviously you're not,I should bring to your knowledge that the bible report that the israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years.if mount sinai is to be associated with modern day sinai peninsula in egypt,which has a maritime boundary with the west of present day saudi arabia,I fail to see why they wandered in egypt which is just nearby for 40 years!!!it is only reasonable that the 40 years spent in the desert refers to the wide expanse of the arabia desert in the arabian peninsula rather than in mount sinai which shares a short and small boundary with palestine,the home and destination of the israelites.

Let me also make one sound reasoning to believe that mount sinai is in arabia and the israelites crossed the sea from egypt into arabia and wandered in the arabian desert.according to the bible,Moses (as) never stepped foot in the holy land.he was even buried outside of palestine,somewhere in present-day Jordan,north of arabia.also according to the bible,Moses (as) was in Midian which is identified as to the north of arabia.if the bible says Moses (as) didn't step foot in the holy land,then how did he get to Midian,north of arabia around Jordan,if not from southward through arabia?did he use flight from egypt to midian flying over palestine without a stop over?!

See, I am used to this your tactic of changing topic when your position is shown to be false. I will NOT fall for the bait. The issue at stake is NOT the wilderness of paran but the prophet Muhammad as the comforter. When the issue of paran comes up we shall focus on it and clear it up. Disputing paran = mecca is so easy from the bible itself to historical facts and archeology. Davidylan and Co dealt well with the issue here
www.nairaland.com/839098/muhammed-imagined-abraham-built-kaaba among others.

No be today I know you.

I pray you think! I can clearly notice you cannot refute the prophecies presented.so instead you're throwing doubt which portrays your ignorance.

I am being merely dismissive of them. Again I will not be dragged off the main issue since I have already shown in two small examples how paran couldn't have been in mecca. I showed on simple terms that Joshua spies in the OT couldn't have left isreal and went to paran in mecca to spy in a matter of days given that the two are over 1000km apart! It then follows that paran couldn't have been in mecca.

It then follows that those prophecies had nothing to do with Muhammad or Hijra since the paran in the Bible isn't mecca.

As a result of this I would rather stick to the issue at hand.

As for israel reclaiming its land,the palestinian people who are mostly muslims have israelite and jewish heritage too and are indigenous and entitled to have that land too.among the palestinians is also canaanite ancestry.the canaanites preceeded the birth of Abraham (as) himself in palestine.whether using religion,heritage or history,the palestinian people have more right and bigger case to lay claim to the land

The same Bible passages you want to claim gave prophecies about Muhammad also affirms the land of isreal! Why is the Bible wrong on this count and not on Muhammad?

See why I find it difficult to understand you. If it rubbs you right its ok. If it doesn't its "corrupted"

The Isreali and palestinians have claim to that land. No one has a bigger claim than the other. The Jews lost their home land once and want it back. The palestinians have also a stake for being there too. It's a balancing act to find a middle ground. The fact is all this belligerent talk about wiping out the jews is wash and will not happen. The palestinians will need to be practical and seize the opportunity by the recent withdrawal of the Isrealies from territories to come to the table and iron out their differences.

Other islamic nations are not walking the talk. They use the palestinians as pawns urging them to reject concrete proposals that would have brought peace decades ago. Isn't it odd that the bulk of aid to the palestinians come from the "christian" USA and the EU?! Where are their muslim brothers? WHERE IS IRAN (that wants to wipe isreal off the map)? Where is Saudi with their billions? Jordan nko? Why no open its doors to the "refugees"? Qatar? UAE? When it comes to feeding the poor dying children they do nothing but claim "outrage" openly! Even far away predominantly "Christian" nations of Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador and Australia donate to the PNA






Since 1993 the European Commission and the EU member-states combined have been by far the largest aid contributor to the Palestinians. [60] The Arab League states have also been substantial donors, notably through budgetary support to the PNA during the Second Intifada; [i] they have been however criticized for not sufficiently financing the UNRWA and the PNA,and for balking at their pledges. [/b] [61].... During the Paris Conference, 11% of the pledges came from the US and Canada, 53% from Europe and 20% from the Arab countries.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians#section_1

See also

freund.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/02/do_arab_states_.html



But the palestinian issue is not what is at stake. It's the claim that prophet Muhammad is the comforter.

Do I sense desperation?

Read them again carefully. Use a dictionary and read again. can you compare that with threatening to kill (wipe a nation off the map).



[quote author=LagosShia]

[size=14pt]JESUS,INSULTS AND THE JEWS[/size]

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

John 8:44
Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets, and stone them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together , even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


Mathew 23:33
"You[b] serpents[/b], you generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell"?

Mathew 12:34
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks".

Mathew 12:39
"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

Mathew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

^
You're accusing me of changing the topic yet you continue with redherrings.I wasn't the one who brought the issue of the arab and jewish conflict into this thread.you are the one who want to use the very jews cursed in many places of the bible when being rebellious and blessed when being obedient to score points.

You still went to drift from the topic even after accusing me of what you're doing.

The topic is about who the comforter is.by my account that topic is done!

We were talking about why the jews chose to be in arabia at around the time Muhammad (sa) was born in anticipation of the Prophet (sa) from arabia.I went on to cite just few of a number of prophecies about arabia in the bible.you disputed one of the prophecies,and said paran isn't Makkah.I am telling you paran is Makkah and the 'wilderness of paran' is the arabian desert.you have not accepted that.you even went on to claim that paran is around sinai which is in egypt.let me show you how you have disputed your very own bible:

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

So if you say the wilderness of paran is close to biblical mount sinai and biblical sinai is in arabia according to whoever authored Galatians 4:2,now who is the liar?

tiarabubu:

Yes Lagosliar...




See, I am used to this your tactic of changing topic when your position is shown to be false. I will NOT fall for the bait. The issue at stake is NOT the wilderness of paran but the prophet Muhammad as the comforter. When the issue of paran comes up we shall focus on it and clear it up. Disputing paran = mecca is so easy from the bible itself to historical facts and archeology. Davidylan and Co dealt well with the issue here
www.nairaland.com/839098/muhammed-imagined-abraham-built-kaaba among others.

No be today I know you.





I am being merely dismissive of them. Again I will not be dragged off the main issue since I have already shown in two small examples how paran couldn't have been in mecca. I showed on simple terms that Joshua spies in the OT couldn't have left isreal and went to paran in mecca to spy in a matter of days given that the two are over 1000km apart! It then follows that paran couldn't have been in mecca.

It then follows that those prophecies had nothing to do with Muhammad or Hijra since the paran in the Bible isn't mecca.

As a result of this I would rather stick to the issue at hand.




The same Bible passages you want to claim gave prophecies about Muhammad also affirms the land of isreal! Why is the Bible wrong on this count and not on Muhammad?

See why I find it difficult to understand you. If it rubbs you right its ok. If it doesn't its "corrupted"

The Isreali and palestinians have claim to that land. No one has a bigger claim than the other. The Jews lost their home land once and want it back. The palestinians have also a stake for being there too. It's a balancing act to find a middle ground. The fact is all this belligerent talk about wiping out the jews is wash and will not happen. The palestinians will need to be practical and seize the opportunity by the recent withdrawal of the Isrealies from territories to come to the table and iron out their differences.

Other islamic nations are not walking the talk. They use the palestinians as pawns urging them to reject concrete proposals that would have brought peace decades ago. Isn't it odd that the bulk of aid to the palestinians come from the "christian" USA and the EU?! Where are their muslim brothers? WHERE IS IRAN (that wants to wipe isreal off the map)? Where is Saudi with their billions? Jordan nko? Why no open its doors to the "refugees"? Qatar? UAE? When it comes to feeding the poor dying children they do nothing but claim "outrage" openly! Even far away predominantly "Christian" nations of Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador and Australia donate to the PNA






Since 1993 the European Commission and the EU member-states combined have been by far the largest aid contributor to the Palestinians. [60] The Arab League states have also been substantial donors, notably through budgetary support to the PNA during the Second Intifada; [i] they have been however criticized for not sufficiently financing the UNRWA and the PNA,and for balking at their pledges. [/b] [61].... During the Paris Conference, 11% of the pledges came from the US and Canada, 53% from Europe and 20% from the Arab countries.






But the palestinian issue is not what is at stake. It's the claim that prophet Muhammad is the comforter.

LagosShia: ^
You're accusing me of changing the topic yet you continue with redherrings.I wasn't the one who brought the issue of the arab and jewish conflict into this thread.you are the one who want to use the very jews cursed in many places of the bible when being rebellious and blessed when being obedient to score points.

You still went to drift from the topic even after accusing me of what you're doing.

The topic is about who the comforter is.by my account that topic is done!

We were talking about why the jews chose to be in arabia at around the time Muhammad (sa) was born in anticipation of the Prophet (sa) from arabia.I went on to cite just few of a number of prophecies about arabia in the bible.you disputed one of the prophecies,and said paran isn't Makkah.I am telling you paran is Makkah and the 'wilderness of paran' is the arabian desert.you have not accepted that.you even went on to claim that paran is around sinai which is in egypt.let me show you how you have disputed your very own bible:

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for[b] Mount Sinai in Arabia [/b]and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

So if you say the wilderness of paran is close to biblical mount sinai and biblical sinai is in arabia according to whoever authored Galatians 4:2,now who is the liar?

Good. So the topic is done. You now know better why Muhammad was NOT the comforter abi? Good!

Now Open a new thread on paran, bacca, arabia & mecca and your prophecies then we can thrash it out. I will also address your Hagar/mount sinai /arabia quote in Galatians. by the way read the chapter and know the comparison Paul was making between the Arabs and jews so you don't embarrass yourself

Hope you wouldn't rely too heavily on the bible. I would love Quranic quotes too on the issue!

On the question of aide to the palestinians:

Let me remind you how you were blindly adamantby generalizing how christians are generous while muslims are 'monstrous' until it was reported that your slapping pastor,oyedepo,in nigeria was threatening his muslim sister with starvation if she doesn't convert to christianity.then you were quite embarrassed!

The europeans and americans have a duty to provide for the palestinians because they're responsible for the suffering israel inflicted on the poor palestinian poor.they sent the european jews,then seen as a liability,to cause damage to others in palestine.

Let me also remind you that the west you're boasting of would offer aide to anyone so long as the aide is channeled to its puppet who is capable of using the aide to make sure the people forfeit their right.a quick reminder is gaza ruled by hamas.hamas won the palestinian elections in a democratic process.yet still aide to the palestinians was cut and they were threatened with starvation if hamas rule.hamas ended up gaining control of gaza while the PA of the stooge,mahmood abbass ruled the west bank.gaza has being under siege for years and limited supply of food and medicines under strict israeli scrutiny is sent to gaza all in a bid to ensure collective justice.

I do not deny the positive role of latin american countries especially the ones opposed to the west you're promoting as a role for christians.however it is blindness to generalize or classify an entire population as either good or bad.

tiarabubu:

Good. So the topic is done. You now know better why Muhammad was NOT the comforter abi? Good!

If that would make Madam tiaramumu sleep at night,then good!

Now Open a new thread on paran, bacca, arabia & mecca and your prophecies then we can thrash it out. I will also address your Hagar/mount sinai /arabia quote in Galatians. by the way read the chapter and know the comparison Paul was making between the Arabs and jews so you don't embarrass yourself

Hope you wouldn't rely too heavily on the bible. I would love Quranic quotes too on the issue!

That was a favorite topic by the bible thumpers on nairaland until not too long ago.I have discussed about paran,bacca and mount sinai.I thought you were going to have a good night rest but too bad you brought this up.let me leave you with my post from another thread where what you're asking for was discussed.enjoy the nightmare:

LagosShia: @ those in page #1 talking about archaeolohy and what the Quran mentions specifically about Abraham and the Ka'bah in particular,let me first bring to your notice that in your very own bible Hagar,the mother of Ishamel,who we believe along with his father Abraham rebuilt the ka'ba and placed the black stone is mentioned to have being in arabia.

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
(note that the above verse cannot be taken figuratively as the christian would speculate because Hagar is not from arabia but from egypt).so if really Hagar (as) was in arabia,why do you find it hard to believe Abraham stepped foot in Makkah?

here is even more explicit verse regarding the "wilderness of Paran" which is Arabia:

Genesis 21:20-21 (KJV) “And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.”

and you can read here for archaelogical finding that mount sinai is actually in saudi arabia (note that the israelites according to the bible are said to have roamed the desert for years.that could only be in arabia):

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/mt__sinai_found.htm
http://antipas.net/15faq.htm


read about Paran (Faran in arabic):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

Numbers 10:12
Then the Israelites set out from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran.




In Surah 3:96, Makkah (refered to as Mecca) is given the name Bakkah:
Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-`Alamin (the mankind and jinns).

The Bible, in Psalm 84:5,6, mentions the valley of Baca:
Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs: the autumn rains also cover it with pools. (NIV)

furthermore we read about Paran (arabia) in the bible:

Numbers 10:12 (KJV) “And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.”

Numbers 13:1-3 (KJV)
“And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. And Moses by the commandment of the LORD sent them from the wilderness of Paran: all those men were heads of the children of Israel.”


Habakkuk 3:3
God came from Teman, the Holy One from [b]Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth.[/b]
(we know that the first revelation that descended upon Muhammad (sa) was in a cave called hira in a mountain known as Jabal an-Nur in Makkah).

Pilgrimage of Prophet Ezekiel (mentioned in the bible) to Makkah:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ezekiel_pilgrimage.htm

Please compare these two verses and see if paran isn't in arabia:

Genesis 21:20-21 (KJV)
“And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.”

Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

@Tiarabubu:

by tiarabubu: 6:14pm On Sep 07
@ Sweetnecta

Sir, you would notice that I seldom reply your post. No disrespect intended but I find them incoherent and verbose. So, I will side step them for the time being until you are more concise and to the point. I am sorry.

Thank you. I do not write specifically for any individual. but for people who may just come across it and the amber of guidance is kindle. who can imagine Moses [as], the fugitive from the law of Pharaoh, fatherless Jesus [as] from surely unmarried young girl Mary, and fully orphaned Muhammad [as] to be prophets like Adam [as] the first man, created without prior example. these men were even messengers [as], a post higher than prophet-hood.

of course, the messengers of the messenger [sa] you deny have different ways of approach. I am happy that Lagosshia is schooling you, though you may be stubborn to get into. The good news is you are talking, just may be the spiritual light switch will be turned on before it is too late. I hope for you.

LagosShia: On the question of aide to the palestinians:

Let me remind you how you were blindly adamantby generalizing how christians are generous while muslims are 'monstrous' until it was reported that your slapping pastor,oyedepo,in nigeria was threatening his muslim sister with starvation if she doesn't convert to christianity.then you were quite embarrassed!

The europeans and americans have a duty to provide for the palestinians because they're responsible for the suffering israel inflicted on the poor palestinian poor.they sent the european jews,then seen as a liability,to cause damage to others in palestine.

Let me also remind you that the west you're boasting of would offer aide to anyone so long as the aide is channeled to its puppet who is capable of using the aide to make sure the people forfeit their right.a quick reminder is gaza ruled by hamas.hamas won the palestinian elections in a democratic process.yet still aide to the palestinians was cut and they were threatened with starvation if hamas rule.hamas ended up gaining control of gaza while the PA of the stooge,mahmood abbass ruled the west bank.gaza has being under siege for years and limited supply of food and medicines under strict israeli scrutiny is sent to gaza all in a bid to ensure collective justice.

I do not deny the positive role of latin american countries especially the ones opposed to the west you're promoting as a role for christians.however it is blindness to generalize or classify an entire population as either good or bad.

Lol! I was embarrassed indeed! In your dreams. So called pastors have done worse if you don't know. When they do we condemn them openly and let the law take its course.

When you and your ilk want to talk down on the west you say it's "Christian" countries so in this case I am putting it to u that they are "christian". Lol! If you don't understand the import of inverted commas on a word, please find out. It's for sacarsm!

Kai when you will you guys EVER take responsibility for your failings! Chai!
So fellow muslims should DIE cos its the Wests responsibility? Come on! Would you let YOUR BROTHER starve because you didn't cause his situation? Did Australia cause the situation? Did Brazil? Did Mexico? Are they not friends of the west?

The Arab world IS PLAYING POLITICS WITH THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE. simple! It has little to do with the west but the deep divisions in the middle east! When will you guys own up! Chai. All the hot air agmedinijad is blowing can't his country afford to give palestinians more money commensurate with his rhetoric? The West needs the middle east calm so as to fuel their economies. They are right now burning money they can ill afford on keeping hezbollah, isreal, Iran apart and at the same time looking at Syria, Iraq, egypt etc not to talk of aid to Iraq, palestinians, isreal, egypt, Jordan. Privately they collect the dollars and publicly denounce "the great Satan". Even Iran needed the "great satan" to silence sadam and not a wimper was heard from them even when USA entered saudi and Iraq (sacred lands)

This is one digression I will delve into cos it has to do with HUMAN lives.

Read this




Do Arab states really care about the Palestinians?

For all their talk of standing by the Palestinians, Arab regimes sure have a funny way of showing it.

I did a bit of research and discovered an interesting, yet largely unknown, little fact: Arab states provide less than 3 percent of the annual budget of UNRWA, the UN agency that assists Palestinian refugees throughout the Middle East.

By contrast, Western countries cover some 95 percent of the organization's finances each year.

Now, if they really truly cared about the fate of their Palestinian brethren, would oil-rich countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain be so miserly and cheap when it comes to improving their living conditions?

Read below and see for yourself.

UN pressing Arab states for more aid to Palestinian refugees

By Michael Freund


Despite their rhetorical pledges of support for the Palestinians, the Arab states are providing an increasingly smaller amount of aid to the United Nations Relief and Work Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), prompting the UN agency to step up efforts to solicit more funds from Arab regimes throughout the region.

At a press conference held Wednesday in Manama, the Bahraini capital, UNRWA representative Peter Ford issued a plea to Arab countries to increase their donations on behalf of Palestinian refugees, asserting that UNRWA is facing "a financial crisis."

Over the past two decades, Ford noted, Arab states have provided a steadily decreasing percentage of UNRWA's funding. In the 1980s, he said, their donations amounted to 8% of the group's annual budget, whereas now, "Arab donors currently contribute less than three percent of UNRWA's overall spending."

"The objective," he said, "is to return to that level of support at a time when the innocent refugees, as always the victims of political problems, are suffering more than ever."

Ford added that while funds from major donor countries have been "regular and steady," the agency is now looking to tap into other sources, in particular the Arab states, in light of growing demand for UNRWA's services among Palestinian refugees.

"The situation for the refugees is ominously deteriorating because of Israeli attitudes and Palestinian in-fighting," he said. "There is an increasing need for funds from several sources, mainly Arab states."

Ford was in Bahrain to meet with government officials in an effort to drum up additional pledges of support. He plans to visit several Gulf Arab states in the near future as well.

According to UNRWA's Web site, the largest pledge received from an Arab country in 2006 was $1.5 million from Kuwait, with Saudi Arabia promising just $1.2 million. By contrast, Sweden pledged more than $41 million, the UK $27 million, and Denmark over $12 million.

Other Arab states were even less generous, with oil-rich Bahrain offering $30,000 and Lebanon a mere $10,000.

The US was the largest supporter of UNRWA's activities, with more than $137 million of the group's budgeted expenditures of $462 million coming from Washington.

As of October 31, the latest date for which figures are available, UNRWA was expecting a funding shortfall in 2006 of $117 million, with total pledges amounting to $345 million.

Nearly all of UNRWA's operations are financed by voluntary contributions from governments and the European Union. In total, Western countries provide more than 95% of the agency's finances.





freund.typepad.com/my_weblog/2007/02/do_arab_states_.html


So unless there is anything else on the comforter issue, I leave you to continue condemning the "christian" west for self inflicted troubles.

^
Your report is really confusing you.you're mistaking donations to UNRWA as all the donations arab and muslim states make to the palestinian people.you're disregarding the millions muslim states give through unofficial channels.I could remember the report once of the hamas leader,Ismaeel Haniya stranded in the egypt-gaza border with large sum of money in hard currency,after visit to muslim countries.does the west make donation to democratically elected Islamic hamas?no!they consider hamas a terrorist organization for fighting against zionist occupation of its land.what about the weapons supplied to the palestinians from Iran and Syria and from other countries in the past?

Let me also remind you that half of the population in Jordan is palestinian refugees.lebanon and syria each house hundreds of thousands of palestinian refugees on their land.all this because israel wants all of palestine for only jews-those practicing judaism-even if they be converts who are not descended from Abraham (as).and if your ancestor is jew or israelite,or if he is canaanite living in palestine before Abraham (as) was born,you are to leave your land if you don't practice judaism and you identify yourself as palestinian and practicing Islam or Christianity.this is the racism and apartheid your 'generous' West donated to palestine.

Read carefully and go through the links that talk of the PLA budget of 1 billion dollars plus and see who funds most of it. Since 2008 the US gives 600m of it.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians#section_1


thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/07/19/palestinians_deny_us_aid_threat



Continue living in denial. Here is an except from a document from inside the PLA by palestinians themselves for some years past. I am not digging others cos this thread is NOT about palestinians so I will stop here (by the way muftah has Hannah ashrawi as DG)

According to recent estimates by the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA), total donor commitments since the establishment of the PNA in 1994 until October 2005 amounted to roughly US$ 6 billion (US$ 6,104,851,292), while actual donor disbursements during the same period amounted to roughly US$ 5 billion (US$ 4,677,626,670).1 The bulk of these funds came from the US (a total of US$ 778 million); the EC (a total of US$ 1.2 billion); various EU countries (among whom Sweden, the UK, Germany and France are the largest); Japan (a total of US$ 151 million); the World Bank Group (a total of US$ 114 million), and the Arab countries (among whom the largest donor has been Saudi Arabia, with a total of US$ 334 million).2 (See Figure 1 below for breakdown of largest donors and percentages

www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/PA_Sources_of_Funding2.pdf


While there are real serious problems in palestine, you guys don't address the main issues rather use rhetoric to whip sentiments and prolong the suffering of poor ordinary palestinians. Keep defending the indefensible.

If you want to discuss the palestinian issue, open a thread and I will help cure some of your stereotype where you see ALL else as the problem except yourselves.

while I am not into un, arab, palestinian, even muslim and us politics, the one thing you forgot tiarabubu is that your copied research was authored by freud, a jew. who do you think most jews will support; jews or the oppressed palestinians? clearly, palestinians are being oppressed.

i remember in manhattan, democrat assemblyman aiken of brooklyn was accusing obama as a non usa born, hence natanyahu can even run for us presidency! when it comes to it, most jews will take the position of israel, rather than take the side of usa that has nurtured them from almost german extinction to a state of honor.

i need to remind you that in this united states, muslims pay taxes and there are muslims who pay good taxes, owners of real money. i am sure if people are allowed to dictate what their us taxes are to be spent on, i for one will not want a cent from me to go to israel. yet israel get plenty of money and supports from america.

most people in the usa, i dont know about the rest of the west who will work for better palestinian over the interest of israel is accused and can actually be oppressed with trump up charges.

my prayer is this that in my lifetime, that the muslims in america can rise up and by influence neutralize the influence of israel and her lobbyists. Didnt Turkey try to help the palestinians few years ago with some humanitarians losing their lives by the commando style response of israel?

tiarabubu: Read carefully and go through the links that talk of the PLA budget of 1 billion dollars plus and see who funds most of it. Since 2008 the US gives 600m of it.

The Palestinian Liberation Organization does not represent the majority of palestinians as democratic elections show.hamas does.therefore it is understandable why the PLA led by the stooge Mahmood Abass,who opposes hamas is being pumped with billions.you got to keep your friend strong to weaken your enemy.the US and europe regard hamas a terrorist organization but the palestinian people do not.what happened in palestinian politics is a coup against democracy by the west.practically they're financing an illegal government led by their puppet,mahmood abass,whose fatah faction lost in the last election.

bukatyne: Jesus Christ was God who came in the form of flesh (man) to die for our sins. His blood that was shed on calvary heals, saves, delivers, cleanses, makes one whole, redeems etc. read Philippians 2

if jesus is god nd that he came in human flesh nd that he die 4 the sin of the world WHY christain er praying 4 forgiveness of sins day nd night after the death of jesus

LagosShia:

The Palestinian Liberation Organization does not represent the majority of palestinians as democratic elections show.hamas does.therefore it is understandable why the PLA led by the stooge Mahmood Abass,who opposes hamas is being pumped with billions.you got to keep your friend strong to weaken your enemy.the US and europe regard hamas a terrorist organization but the palestinian people do not.what happened in palestinian politics is a coup against democracy by the west.practically they're financing an illegal government led by their puppet,mahmood abass,whose fatah faction lost in the last election.

Lol!

Hamas came to power in 2006. Before then fatah was running the show abi? This is what Hannah ashrawi had to say about who was paying for running the palestinian authority BEFORE hamas.



cording to recent estimates by the Palestinian Academic Society for the Study of International Affairs (PASSIA), total donor commitments since the establishment of the PNA in 1994 until October 2005 amounted to roughly US$ 6 billion (US$ 6,104,851,292), while actual donor disbursements during the same period amounted to roughly US$ 5 billion (US$ 4,677,626,670).1 The bulk of these funds came from the US (a total of US$ 778 million); the EC (a total of US$ 1.2 billion); various EU countries (among whom Sweden, the UK, Germany and France are the largest); Japan (a total of US$ 151 million); the World Bank Group (a total of US$ 114 million), and the Arab countries (among whom the largest donor has been Saudi Arabia, with a total of US$ 334 million).2 (See Figure 1 below for breakdown of largest donors and percentages



www.miftah.org/Doc/Factsheets/MIFTAH/English/PA_Sources_of_Funding2.pdf




Now that the donors western donor have stood by, the Arabs have failed to fill in the gaps. And guess what? The palestinians are broke!

m.timesrecordnews.com/news/2012/sep/07/palestinian-authority-faces-cash-crunch-raising-ri/

The palestinians could not even pay salaries





“The problems are becoming more entrenched,” said newly appointed Finance Minister Nabeel Kassis, who spends most of his time trying to scrape together enough cash to pay the monthly bills and salaries. “I don’t like to call it juggling. I call it management. So far we have managed to get through, but in the second half of the year we could be in very bad shape.”

Almost throughout its 18-year existence, the Palestinian Authority has been dogged by financial woes but has always managed to squeeze by, often at the last minute. Now, it appears headed toward the brink again as its leaders warn of the most severe cash crunch they’ve ever seen.

Some unpaid employees of government contractors have gone on strike and more could follow if salaries are not paid. At least one supplier went bankrupt after the government failed to pay its bill.

Over the last week, thousands of Palestinians hit the streets in several cities to protest the rising price of food and fuel, directing most of their anger at the government.

“We are fed up,” said taxi driver Atta Hameidi, who took part in a demonstration Thursday over fuel prices. “I fill my car with gas and hardly have anything left. How do I feed my children and put them through school?”

For two years, Palestinian banks lent money to help keep the government afloat, but now they are turning off the spigot, worried they’ve become too vulnerable should the Palestinian Authority default.

And international donors have slashed their support from $2 billion in 2008 to less than $1 billion this year, of which only half has been delivered.



m.timesrecordnews.com/news/2012/sep/07/palestinian-authority-faces-cash-crunch-raising-ri/


WHERE ARE THE ARABS!!! Now that their people are in power where is the money?!


The bottom line is that the Arabs don't want to walk the talk.

Abeg open another thread make I open your eyes! Make we leave this one

^
You want to evade the point I am making.the PA is headed by a puppet of the west.why is it when someone else not loyal to their dictate was elected,they threatened the palestinians with starvation?isn't it obvious the money is meant to do what's in their interest?

^^^
Please Shia we are not kids here.

You said that the Arabs are funding the palestinians. I showed you that their contributions are miniscule and they are even failing in their pledges to the palestinians. The west is a major donor. You said they bear responsibility, l said why should the Arabs allow their muslim brothers to starve despite their rhetoric.

You say fatah is western stooge. Fine. Hamas is in power let the Arabs fund it. But no. Palestinians never had it this bad!

Why would you say the west is threatening palestinians with starvation when the arab countries are the ones who should step up to support hamas!

WHY DO YOU BLAME OTHERS FOR YOUR PROBLEM! If the Arabs so love the palestinians why allow them starve! Why must the palestinians depend on the the "christian" west, and the "great satan" USA to feed them. What are you guys doing? Just watching?

You are an interesting fellow.

Let the comforter debate continue.

^
I hope you know (with the exception of syria and iran that back hamas) most if not all of these arab states are governed by tyrants who are loyal to the west.

Mubarak closed the border with gaza and cut food and gas supply with israel's blessing.mubarak himself who put egypt in bondage was receiving 3 billion dollars 'aide' from the US.the generals of the egyptian army under mubarak were on the payroll of the pentagon as well.for what? I think to protect and keep israel safe.and you think they care about palestinians? Or is it zionist-wahhabi saudi monarcy? Please get your facts straight!

And many of those helping hamas would definitely not come out to state what they have given.

Tiarabubu, well done, I am preparing for exam, when I finish I will resume, hope they dont ban me.