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Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? - Religion - Nairaland

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How Jesus Died For Our Sins : The Road To Easter / Did Jesus Die for Our Sin? Which Sin? Ifeann Should Please Come In / Can One Pray To God To Forgive The Sins Of Another? (2) (3) (4)

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Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 4:43pm On Dec 19, 2007
Or he came, got mugged,and died for the sadistic sins of his old testament daddy(see Leviticus and Deuteronomy).
That would make more sense than his dying for the sins of mankind now,would it not?  grin
The original sin was commited by his evil papa by deliberately planting that tree in the garden of eden,with the intention of saddling adam and eve with a sin that should never have been theirs.
A premeditated act of wickedness! angry
So he had to send his own son to "pretend die" for the sin he commited!What a juvenile!
I don't think that jesus have enough blood to wash away the sins of his psychopath papa. sad
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 5:05pm On Dec 19, 2007
He never died for the sin of anybody.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by luv2talk(m): 5:11pm On Dec 19, 2007
Jesus did not die for anybody,Rather,he died for truth, so,keep on doing good and stop relying on Jesus christ to help you, Barka de Sallah
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 2:19pm On Dec 21, 2007
Where are the christians?The topic is too hot for y'all? cool
The realization that the very book you ardently believe to be the "word of God" actually chronicled in gory details the perverse cruelty of the very "loving" god you are killing yourselves to have an eternal lives with, is too bitter a pill too swallow?
No wonder the present jews are so embarrassed by such a deity being their god!
The christians will be a tiny wee bit smart to disown this god and cut off from the OT for good.
But,are they that smart? cool
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 2:24pm On Dec 21, 2007
Yeah,except for the cruel sins of his butcher papa.He tried to wash away the blood of innocent people murdered by his father with his own blood!!!How perverse can one be?
babs787:

He never died for the sin of anybody.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 2:26pm On Dec 21, 2007
Yeah,and the truth is that his father was a genocidal mass murderer.May the innocents he brutally killed be able to forgive him.
luv2talk:

Jesus did not die for anybody,Rather,he died for truth
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by Pamperme: 4:28pm On Dec 21, 2007
grin grin grin grin
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 5:20pm On Dec 22, 2007
@Jagunlabi



Yeah,except for the cruel sins of his butcher papa.He tried to wash away the blood of innocent people murdered by his father with his own blood!!!How perverse can one be?

I tire o. Adam committed sin hundred of years, Jesus didnt come directly to clean that sin but had to wait after thousands of prophets. I thought God is a merciful one that doesnt punish a man for the sin of his son and vice versa shocked.

Jesus that came to die and very aware of his mission, cried on the cross to himself thus 'my God, my God, why has thiu forsaken me'?
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by Kuns: 5:44pm On Dec 22, 2007
The only people who are bordering on psychosis and are disillution are those who believe in the myth of the Christian and the Christ Story. It is psychosis to base ones life on the story of the Flavius Josephus Piso, the playwright and actor whose mythological plays began Christian.

Every one knows that Jesus is a derivative of Jupiter and Zeus (Jzeus) EhZeus phonetically Jesus and Krishna, Kristos the derivative of Khrist (Kris). Kristna existed millions of years before Christ.

Flavius Josephus Piso, created the Jesus Christ Story (New Testament) based on Greek, Roman and Aryan Hindu myths and mixed it with Ancient Egyptian realities. Flavius Josephus Piso was also an an wealthy Roman aristocrat Historian

Llke I always say don't believe me, check it out for yourself. Just type Flavius Josephus Piso into any seach engine, google it. Go and read a book based on facts, go to the British Nation Library or any library and enquire about Flavius Josephus Piso. It we all can be a slave for the system, as a lawyer of any sound right reasoning based on common sence, right understanding and right wisdomI know you will see that the Christ Story never happened. It was really a plot to dispose the powerful African empires of that period. Religion was used to control the people physical as it is today.

You can go to Youtube as well and type "Flavius Josephus story", these are white people telling you. With facts Piso made it up with Constantine II, and everyone went along with the myth and falsehood, this is Psychosis. For profit and loss account form sales generated over the festive seasons.

Satarnalia was what was originally celebrated by the Romans this now became Christmas actually satan or Santa is worship and Saturn is Rome mythologically God, is the Roman God of Agriculture. Saturn is also the name of one of the planets in our milky way or solar system.

At Howstuffworks you can see when all the myths are caming from.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 5:50pm On Dec 22, 2007
Can the christians think?They've been so brainwashed that they can't think or reason.They've all been turned into bloody drones,zombies.
All they need do is pick their bibles and read it properly,and all the lies will be unveiled to them.Just their own bible!That is all it takes.
The bible directly contradicts every bit of the perverse christian doctrine,every bit!Is that not a powerful hint from the true God?
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by jagunlabi(m): 5:54pm On Dec 22, 2007
By the way,when i say THE TRUE GOD,i am not referring to the gods of any organized religion.
Let's be clear about that one.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by olabowale(m): 8:15pm On Dec 22, 2007
@Kuns: I flatly disagree with you: Jesus son of Mary was not a myth. He was my Prophet. He was a Messenger of his Lord to the Children of Israel. But he was not son of God. He was not God. He was not a partner of God. But as a Prophet/Messenger, he performed many great miracles, by the help of his Creator! All of them to show that he was truly an elect of God.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by Dorcasde(f): 12:59pm On Jan 04, 2008
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He brought the message of salvation to mankind so that we could find our path back home. For him to fulfill on this earth, He had to be in flesh and blood. He suffered death on the cross because He stood firm that he was the Son of God and the Bringer of Truth, thereby putting a seal on His Word. Therefore, he fulfilled! On the contrary, denying His mission in the face of death would have meant victory to the darkness. The greatest prayer of intercession ever, was the one Jesus said on the cross, ‘Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.’ Why interceding if He was meant to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity? And after the betrayer who gave Jesus away realized the enormity of what he did, he returned the 30 pieces of silver he was paid and committed suicide.

The physical body of Jesus was just an instrument for him to walk the surface of this earth. Therefore, to say that the physical body/instrument that God used on earth can forgive sins is nothing but idolatry; which in this case is faith in physical blood, for the forgiveness of sins. Besides, how can blood from gruesome murder bring about salvation/forgiveness? It is obedience to His Words that brings salvation, not His blood. Put differently, His Words bring salvation, not His death. We have to redeem our sins by obeying His Words.

1 Like

Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by olabowale(m): 2:39pm On Jan 04, 2008
@Dorcasde: Shin ha.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He brought the message of salvation to mankind so that we could find our path back home. For him to fulfill on this earth, He had to be in flesh and blood. He suffered death on the cross because He stood firm that he was the Son of God and the Bringer of Truth, thereby putting a seal on His Word. Therefore, he fulfilled! On the contrary, denying His mission in the face of death would have meant victory to the darkness. The greatest prayer of intercession ever, was the one Jesus said on the cross, ‘Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.’ Why interceding if He was meant to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity?
: Listen sister, God has no son or daughter or father or mother! So Jesus son of Virgin Mary is no son of God. If God ever has a child/offspring, the Muslims would be the first to worship it! There were many parts to Jesus ministry: The first is to lead back the Children of Israel, and no one else to the right path of believing in One God and worshipping that God and obeying His commandments. By this, if the Children of Israel had followed Jesus instructions, by his Lord, they would have been the conveyors of true Monotheism, the worship of God in its pure Oneness, without any association with it, but negating all types of associations. Jesus was not more than a creation, because he could not have existed by his own power, because he has none, except by the power of the One God! And for the umptty time, Jesus did not die on the cross and there is no need for him to stand firm on the process of death, at least, not yet. But in the future he will do just that as a believer. If Jesus was ver on the cross and he made any prayer on the cross and if the prayer was accepted, then his killers and his betrayers are all in Paradise then, right? Therefore, those who committed evil acts from that point on, eg Hitler and company, with lesser sins than the killing of Jesus, your son of god, your God in the flesh who walked the streets of Jerusalem, Galillee, will in no doubt be in Paradise, right? Finally, I observed that the 100% rank of the killers are 'disbelievers,' in the complete package of Jesus, which includes his prophethood, his son of godship and his death on the cross as a means of salvation. If these people are going to paradise since Jesus made that supplication to God, then, the future people who do not believe his total package as is, eg the Muslims, who believe in his messengership are already a shoe-in for Paradise, right? Even the Jews fair just as well as the Muslims. The others are not doing too bad either, right? Did you notice that Jesus prayered to a Higher Authority than himself? That Higher Authority is God and thats Who the Muslims worship!

So what advantage do the Christians have over others, in their belief? What is the purpose of Jesus leading the way to the path home? You will see therefore, from Islamic observation, that there was no Jesus on the cross and therefore there was no prayer and the acceptance of 'the forgive them, ,' of the on the cross prayer! Everything is fraudulent, as you have stated it in your remark above. She she!
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 10:17am On Jan 05, 2008
@jagunlabi,

jagunlabi:

Where are the christians?The topic is too hot for y'all? cool

Christians do not play the frantic games that Muslims applaud themselves over. If you have been on the Forum long enough, you'd have noticed that this is a recycled topic that has been thrashed already. Why would anyone be interested in wasting precious time repeating the same issue over and over again? cool

Besides, isn't amusing that Muslims cannot even agree among themselves on their arguments? here is a sample of two Muslims saying DIRECTLY opposite statements:

#1 - babs787:

babs787:

He never died for the sin of anybody.

#2 - luv2talk:

luv2talk:

Jesus did not die for anybody,Rather,he died for truth, so,keep on doing good and stop relying on Jesus christ to help you, Barka de Sallah

On the one hand, the former does not believe that Jesus died (He "never died"wink; on the other, the latter believes He actually died (He "died" for truth). Did you guys ever seek to sort yourselves out before asking where others are?
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by TheSly: 10:21am On Jan 05, 2008

Jesus did not die for anybody,Rather,he died for truth, so,keep on doing good and stop relying on Jesus christ to help you, Barka de Sallah

who is this one. . . . . undecided
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 10:38am On Jan 05, 2008
~Sly~(*_*):

who is this one. . . . . undecided

Lol. . . abeg help me ask am well-well. grin
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 11:22am On Jan 05, 2008
@pilgrim.1


Welcome back cheesy


Let us read these verses together


Genesis 2 v 15: the Lord God took the man and put him in the gardenf Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying 'you may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.


But please why didnt they die after eating that fruit as said by God?



Adam, however persuaded by hi wife Eve, transgressed God's command and ate the forbidden fuit of the tree of knowledge. God cursed them both:

Genesis 3 v 16-19. To the woman He said:

'i will greatly multiply you pain in childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children yet your desire shall befor your husband ad he shall rule over you'.

And to Adam He said,

'because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of knowledge which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground because of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shallbring forht for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweet of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken and you are dust and to dust you shall return.


On account of Adam's sin, human beings are being deprived of sanctity grace and inherit his punishment.


As a result of the inherited sin, God now sent Jesus to come and die for a sin committed thousand of years by his great grand parents and we were told that Jesus died on the cross to wash away that sin. If really Jesus died for that sin committed by Adam, the curse placed on them should have been erased but the curse is still hanging despite the fact that Jesus died for that sin. Any explanation to this Pilgrim.1?


Thanks
cool
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 12:27pm On Jan 05, 2008
@babs787,

babs787:

Genesis 2 v 15: the Lord God took the man and put him in the gardenf Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying 'you may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.


But please why didnt they die after eating that fruit as said by God?


Adam, however persuaded by hi wife Eve, transgressed God's command and ate the forbidden fuit of the tree of knowledge. God cursed them both:

That's quite easy to understand - because for you as a Muslim, you think only in terms of the physical and not in spiritual terms.

To assure you, both Adam and Eve actually "died". HOW? God was not referring to physical death in that text you quote (Genesis 2 v 15). As the context demonstrates in perusing with other verses, it shows clearly that He was referring to the spiritual implications of their actions - spiritual death. In other verses, the prophets have clearly declared that the sould that sinneth, it shall die (e.g., Ezek. 18 v 4, 20); but more often than not, many people assume that "die" and "death" must always be referring to physical death.

Certainly, the Bible enunciates clearly that some who sinned againt God actually were put to death - in whcih case the judgement was referring to physical death (cf. Exo. 31 v 14). However, the prophetic inplications of Genesis 2 v 15 reaches beyond the immediate time and cluse of Adam and Eve when they sinned - and that is why the spiritual consequences were clearly enunciated for us in Genesis 3; and in that same chapter (v 15 again), a prophetic declaration of God's redemption for humanity was proclaimed. The Seed of the Woman was to bruise the head of the serpent - which all the prophets expressed in several ways until it was fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ.

To solve your problem here is easy - once you enunciate the difference between physical and spiritual death from a Biblical perspective, then the verses that seem to be your worrires become immediately clear in their context.


babs787:

On account of Adam's sin, human beings are being deprived of sanctity grace and inherit his punishment.

This may seem to present an insurmaountable problem for you; but only if you so desire to keep it that way. Because the Qur'an has no way of delineating the reality of the common cause and experience of sin from Adam to the present day, Muhammad claimed that Satan touches everyone on the day of their birth. Yet, how that touch of Satan should "deprive" humanity of sanctity and grace, that is an issue that Muslims have never bothered to clearly enunciate.

babs787:

As a result of the inherited sin, God now sent Jesus to come and die for a sin committed thousand of years by his great grand parents and we were told that Jesus died on the cross to wash away that sin.

This is the reason why I asked if you are after a discussion or rather hell-bent on deliberately being a coward by misrepresenting issues.

In the first instances, Adam and Eve are not the "great grand parents" of Jesus - Islam does not even teach that ribald idea. If it does, please kindly post the references directly without making any excuses and let us read them simply for ourselves.

However, when you look again at Genesis 3 v 15, we find that the prophetic declaration of God's redemption for humanity was clearly published there.

Does this bother you? Well, in simple terms, a prophecy looks to the future even though it is connected with the past. The sins may have been committed in the PAST; but God promised to bring redemption to all humanity at the set time of His counsels. This is the reason why the same effects of sin from Adam and Eve are beingfelt by everyone today - and whoever has trusted Christ as simply as the Bible states, will find indeed that te prephecies are true! I knew this the very day I trusted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour; and I knew the ddifference God's promises makes in the life of a genuine seeker for His love.

babs787:

If really Jesus died for that sin committed by Adam, the curse placed on them should have been erased but the curse is still hanging despite the fact that Jesus died for that sin. Any explanation to this Pilgrim.1?

You are only repeating the very same issue that have been thrashed - please try not to humour me by pretending you no longer remember the FACT.

However, here's what I have in answer:

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ does not place the Christian under a "curse". God cursed the ground on for Adam's sake - and the reason for this is clearly given: "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3 v 17).

However, prior to the diluvian judgement, we find already that Noah was a man whose parents (particularly his father Lamech) had prophesied that the bring comfort to them concerning the same curse that God had placed on the ground:

"And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us
concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground
which the LORD hath cursed." - [Genesis 5 vs 29]

Did that prophesy come to pass or not? I submit that it definitely did. We read that after the judgement of the flood, this is what happened and then read also the pronouncement that God made about the curse on the ground:

Genesis 8:20-21

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast,
and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart,
I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again
smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Mr babs787, the "curse" you often noise abroad without first checking your assertions are a testimony of the FACT that you often like to recycle borrowed ideas and claim that they are your own! Not to worry, please see above and understand that your worry about a so-called "curse" in the Genesis narratives were also taken care of in that same Genesis.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 2:20pm On Jan 05, 2008
@pilgrim


Genesis 2 v 15: the Lord God took the man and put him in the gardenf Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying 'you may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.


You will never stop amusing me. I asked you a question but confused yourself and never knew that I never posted Genesis 2 v 15 in another thread.

Now do you think that I can be deceived like you? Far from that. Read the verse again and something will catch your attention which is:

for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.

What could me as straight forward as this?



However, here's what I have in answer:

The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ does not place the Christian under a "curse". God cursed the ground on for Adam's sake - and the reason for this is clearly given: "cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life" (Gen. 3 v 17).



Na wa with this your response o.Let me break it down for you. You said that God placed the curse on the ground, please read the verses again:


God punished Eve for eating that fruit and this is the punishment

Genesis 3 v 16-19. To the woman He said:

'i will greatly multiply you pain in childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children yet your desire shall befor your husband ad he shall rule over you'.



Note; Gid did not curse the ground here


And to Adam:


'because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of knowledge which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground because of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shallbring forht for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweet of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken and you are dust and to dust you shall return.


God made us understand that he cursed the land because of what Adam did by listening to the voice of his wife and having eaten of the tree of knowledge.



"And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us
concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground
which the LORD hath cursed." - [Genesis 5 vs 29]


Now, did God curse the land because of Noah and did he offend God?
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 2:36pm On Jan 05, 2008
@babs787,

Have you finished pretending about not remembering to have posted any issues on Genesis 2 v 15? WHY were you pretending to have partial amnesia?

babs787:

@pilgrim

You will never stop amusing me. I asked you a question but confused yourself and never knew that I never posted Genesis 2 v 15 in another thread.

Did I claim that you posted it in that particular thread? I simply reminded you since you were deliberately ducking this thread, and that was how your confusion started chasing you to pretend that you had a momentary lapse of memory.

babs787:

Now do you think that I can be deceived like you? Far from that. Read the verse again and something will catch your attention which is:
for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.
What could me as straight forward as this?

Where did God mentioned that they would be put to death (physical death) or where did he mention that they would die PHYSICALLY? That was why I took ti,me to explain the coherence and context of that verse in relation to the PROPHECY in chapter 3 v 15 to show that God was not pointing to physical death.

If you find physical death there rather than a pointer to something far beyond that, please let us know. It will not do to sit smug behind the PC and keep denying issues.

babs787:

Na wa with this your response o.Let me break it down for you. You said that God placed the curse on the ground, please read the verses again:

Please babs787, please. . . grin stop acting like a clown - Muslims do that all the time.

Genesis 3 v 16-19 is not a CURSE. Biblical exegesis does not throw words just about anyhow (even though you claimed to know the Bible more than others). God pronounced a judgement upon Eve which should be a asign to all generations as a FACT that the account in Genesis is true; but a curse is a different thing!

Of those who were not simply "judged" but cursed, we read the following:

Genesis 3:14 - The serpent
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,
thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon
thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

Genesis 4:11 - Cain (for mudering his brother)
And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth
to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand.


The Bible does not confuse these issues - and instead of your shakara of knowing the Bible more than anybody, please rest your bloviates and let us hear word! cheesy A "curse" was not placed on Eve - go and find the verse where God pronounced a curse on her!

Even you have said this:

babs787:

God punished Eve for eating that fruit and this is the punishment

Genesis 3 v 16-19. To the woman He said:

'i will greatly multiply you pain in childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children yet your desire shall befor your husband ad he shall rule over you'.

Did that sound like God cursed EVE? grin

You're forcing yourself to read issues that are non-exietent into the Bible - and for all that, you still arrive at your failure to clearly distinguish them!
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 3:23pm On Jan 05, 2008
@pilgrim


Have you finished pretending about not remembering to have posted any issues on Genesis 2 v 15? WHY were you pretending to have partial amnesia?


Call my attention when you finish deceiving yourself. You posted wrong thing in the wrong thread, asking for Gen 2 v 15 in a thread where I never posted that shocked shocked



Did I claim that you posted it in that particular thread? I simply reminded you since you were deliberately ducking this thread, and that was how your confusion started chasing you to pretend that you had a momentary lapse of memory.


If you did not claim, why were you asking for that in a thread I never raised such/ Abi your eyes don see double grin




Where did God mentioned that they would be put to death (physical death) or where did he mention that they would die PHYSICALLY? That was why I took ti,me to explain the coherence and context of that verse in relation to the PROPHECY in chapter 3 v 15 to show that God was not pointing to physical death.


Here you are again with your physical death and please can you show me where God told them that it would be spiritual death because he said they would die that same day?


If you find physical death there rather than a pointer to something far beyond that, please let us know. It will not do to sit smug behind the PC and keep denying issues.


Can I have where God said it was a spiritual death?





Genesis 3 v 16-19 is not a CURSE. Biblical exegesis does not throw words just about anyhow (even though you claimed to know the Bible more than others). God pronounced a judgement upon Eve which should be a asign to all generations as a FACT that the account in Genesis is true; but a curse is a different thing!

My dear Sister, why did God pronounce judgement on Eve?


Of those who were not simply "judged" but cursed, we read the following:

Genesis 3:14 - The serpent
And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this,
thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon
thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.

Genesis 4:11 - Cain (for mudering his brother)
And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth
to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand.


The Bible does not confuse these issues - and instead of your shakara of knowing the Bible more than anybody, please rest your bloviates and let us hear word! A "curse" was not placed on Eve - go and find the verse where God pronounced a curse on her!


So what did God do to eve then if it is not a curse because it her eating that fruit brought that statement from God?



Did that sound like God cursed EVE?



Why was the statement made after the incident and what does it look like?


You're forcing yourself to read issues that are non-exietent into the Bible - and for all that, you still arrive at your failure to clearly distinguish them!

You seemed very fast at answering the question on Adam and Eve though you goofed in your explanation but never tried to answer earlier questions.

That is Pilgrim, playing her game of dishonesty grin
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by auwal87(m): 3:45pm On Jan 05, 2008
*Poster

NO! Jesus did Not Died for the Sins of Mankind, He is still Alive, and will come down to Earth one day, He got a big Favour from God, He is the only Human Being that was raised up to Heaven including his own Body, Not like us, Body is left on Earth, and Soul is raised to Heaven, So Jesus is still Alive, God knows better than we do,
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 3:48pm On Jan 05, 2008
@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim

Call my attention when you finish deceiving yourself.

Please stop sounding like a broken record - it has become stale from overuse and only further confirms you're empty and have nothing tangible to offer.


babs787:

You posted wrong thing in the wrong thread, asking for Gen 2 v 15 in a thread where I never posted that shocked shocked

Did I assert that you posted any issues about Genesis in this thread? My statement was that simple that even a toddler could not have missed it.

babs787:

If you did not claim, why were you asking for that in a thread I never raised such/ Abi your eyes don see double grin

For the simple reason that after you have bloated and gloated on a scholarship you obviously do not have, you kept ducking this thread - and that's why I hinted you to prod you here and face up with your duplicity.

babs787:

Here you are again with your physical death and please can you show me where God told them that it would be spiritual death because he said they would die that same day?

Three issues I have presented to you as pointers to help you understand clearly why it could not be referring to PHYSICAL death:

  (a) death in the Bible is defined in several ways, and not just one.

  (b) in its CONTEXTS with other verses, the verse you quoted point to spiritual death,
      and not physical death.

  (c) to help the reader understand this, I also offered God's PROPHETIC remedy in
      Genesis 3 v 15 to show that He was referring to a time beyond Adam's day!

When you put these things together, you find that the Bible does not throw words carelessly as Muslims carelessly read their Qur'an. Each concept is clearly defined CONTEXTUALLY, and if anyone misses the context, the only end up with pretexts which they read into the texts - as you did in trying to read a CURSE for Eve where there was none (because you tore the verse out of its context).

babs787:

Can I have where God said it was a spiritual death?

The explanations are already given - nor did I say that God SAID verbetim that it was spiritual death. He did not say it was PHYSICAL death either - but when you dig deep, you come to understand simply that the "day" in question was not referring to a literal interpretation that is to be taken out of its context.

If the game you're trying to play here is that you're looking for a verse where God said this and that (as you did in the case of your assertion of the Qur'an coming to "correct" the Biblical scriptures), then understand that my statements did not make a claim that you're trying to force into it. grin

babs787:

My dear Sister, why did God pronounce judgement on Eve?

My dear babs787, I am waiting for your rebuttal to what I have offered first before jumping to another issue. This hyperventilating of Muslims who have nothing to say in discussing an issue where they make claims that cannot be substantiated is not exactly what will score you any cheap glory here, babs.

You made a claim that God CURSED Eve - please deal with that fallacy before ducking away from it!

You pretend to be smart, but not smart enough to sneak away from this issue.

babs787:
So what did God do to eve then if it is not a curse because it her eating that fruit brought that statement from God?

Please find me where God ever CURSED Eve. I beg you - find me that verse.

As for those who came under the CURSE of God for what they did, I have offered you clear verses for them. I expect you to find me a verse where God CURSED Eve. Thank you.

babs787:

Why was the statement made after the incident and what does it look like?

The statement was made AFTER the incident - and not before it. A righteous God does not punish people for sins they haven't commited. Does that sound like a CURSE to you, babs787?

babs787:

You seemed very fast at answering the question on Adam and Eve though you goofed in your explanation but never tried to answer earlier questions.

Please stop crying and demonstrate where I goofed. If I offered that clear pointers that God never placed a CURSE on Eve, where is that a "goof" and yet you could not offer an alternative to demostrate your case?

babs787:

That is Pilgrim, playing her game of dishonesty grin

Dishonesty is simply the Islamic games of making claims that you cannot substantiate. I am not a Muslim making such claims - so keep playing them and proving that is your forte.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 3:49pm On Jan 05, 2008
@auwal87,

auwal87:

*Poster

NO! Jesus did Not Died for the Sins of Mankind, He is still Alive, and will come down to Earth one day, He got a big Favour from God, He is the only Human Being that was raised up to Heaven including his own Body, Not like us, Body is left on Earth, and Soul is raised to Heaven, So Jesus is still Alive, God knows better than we do,

So, whatever happened to your earlier assertion that Jesus died for truth? WHY are Muslims so confused that they are suddenly crawling out of their holes to contradict their own statements? grin
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by babs787(m): 4:10pm On Jan 05, 2008
@pilgrim.1




Three issues I have presented to you as pointers to help you understand clearly why it could not be referring to PHYSICAL death:

(a) death in the Bible is defined in several ways, and not just one.


Can I have some of the ways please?


(b) in its CONTEXTS with other verses, the verse you quoted point to spiritual death,
and not physical death.


You think so. The verse is a very straight forward one that doesnt need any twisting which you have been doing



(c) to help the reader understand this, I also offered God's PROPHETIC remedy in
Genesis 3 v 15 to show that He was referring to a time beyond Adam's day!


Haba, that is a blatant lie my dear.



When you put these things together, you find that the Bible does not throw words carelessly as Muslims carelessly read their Qur'an. Each concept is clearly defined CONTEXTUALLY, and if anyone misses the context, the only end up with pretexts which they read into the texts - as you did in trying to read a CURSE for Eve where there was none (because you tore the verse out of its context).

Now read this again:


for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.

Two things can be got here

1. The day you eat the fruit
2. That day you shall die

Now are you trying to say He was referrig to spiritual death. You accused someone of lifting out of context but you have been doing what you accused others of. God made it known to us that the very day they eat the fruit, they will die and you are here trying to twist it, givng it another meaning. Do you mean that the day they eat the fruit, the day they will die a spiritual death? cool




The explanations are already given - nor did I say that God SAID verbetim that it was spiritual death. He did not say it was PHYSICAL death either - but when you dig deep, you come to understand simply that the "day" in question was not referring to a literal interpretation that is to be taken out of its context.


What was the day referring to considering the other part of the statement that says 'the day you eat the fruit'





My dear babs787, I am waiting for your rebuttal to what I have offered first before jumping to another issue. This hyperventilating of Muslims who have nothing to say in discussing an issue where they make claims that cannot be substantiated is not exactly what will score you any cheap glory here, babs.


Good to hear you say you are waiting for my rebuttal. Let me remind you that when we are through with this, we will go and debate the previously raised questions cool

You are the one trying to force what is not into that verse which happened to be glaring.

these are the verses again:


Genesis 3 v 16-19. To the woman He said:

'i will greatly multiply you pain in childbearing, in pain you shall bring forth children yet your desire shall befor your husband ad he shall rule over you'.


Go to that book of Genesis and you would see that they never had any problem nor God telling or commanind them as in the above statement prior to the eating of the fruit. They moved freely, they didnt face any hardship but had to go through the above after eating the fruit. It was the eating of the fruit that made God to tell her as in the above verse. Now, please do you think God would have told her that if she has not eaten that fruit? God told her that as the punishment for eating the fruit



And to Adam He said,
'because you have listened
to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of knowledge which I commanded you, you shall not eat of it. Cursed is the ground because of you, in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life, thorns and thistles it shallbring forht for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweet of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken and you are dust and to dust you shall return.


Also he made this statement to Adam after eating the fruit. You should know that Adam lived in that Garden peacefully and confortably before the issung of eating the fruit came up but God had to tell him that being the punishment for eating the fruit.



You made a claim that God CURSED Eve - please deal with that fallacy before ducking away from it!


What does that look like my dear? Did God place any hardship on her before eating that fruit?


You pretend to be smart, but not smart enough to sneak away from this issue.


No I am not smart but still learning.



Please find me where God ever CURSED Eve. I beg you - find me that verse.


Now, did God place any hardship on them before they ate the fruit? Is that statement not supposed to be punishment for her sin?


As for those who came under the CURSE of God for what they did, I have offered you clear verses for them. I expect you to find me a verse where God CURSED Eve. Thank you.

Stop twisting the word of God (inspired word of God grin). You know the truth that made that statement after eating the fruit which he commanded them not to and you are very aware that God never told them what he did in those verses. The eating of the fruit brought about that and it served as a punishment for eating the fruit. Deny the fact again. cool



The statement was made AFTER the incident - and not before it. A righteous God does not punish people for sins they haven't commited. Does that sound like a CURSE to you, babs787?


Ok, good. God made that statement because of the sin they committed. God did not give that command when they havent eaten that fruit but had to that after eating the fruit. Please does that not look like a punishment for the sin committed by them?




Please stop crying and demonstrate where I goofed. If I offered that clear pointers that God never placed a CURSE on Eve, where is that a "goof" and yet you could not offer an alternative to demostrate your case?


You should prepare to answer the questions on Jesus being sent to the whole world
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 4:38pm On Jan 05, 2008
@babs787,

babs787:

@pilgrim.1

Can I have some of the ways please?

I had enunciated two types of death for you already: spiritual death and physical death - with references - in my initial rejoinder. The reason why you may be asking this question this lately is because you never paid attention to them - otherwise there would be absolutely no need for this.


babs787:

You think so. The verse is a very straight forward one that doesnt need any twisting which you have been doing

There's no twisting - that was why I spoke of CONTEXT. It is because you deliberately want to tear it out of its context, that is why you cannot endure what was posted in my rejoinder - NOR have YOU offered any alternative exegesis for the verse.

The only thing you have done so far is what every lazy person can do without effort - DENY them!

babs787:

Haba, that is a blatant lie my dear.

I haven't seen where you offered anything as alternative for the truth thereto.

babs787:


Now read this again:


for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.

Two things can be got here

1. The day you eat the fruit
2. That day you shall die

Now are you trying to say He was referrig to spiritual death. You accused someone of lifting out of context but you have been doing what you accused others of. God made it known to us that the very day they eat the fruit, they will die and you are here trying to twist it, givng it another meaning. Do you mean that the day they eat the fruit, the day they will die a spiritual death? cool

Thy very day they ate of that fruit in DISOBEDIENCE to God, they experienced spiritual death. Go and find out before assuming your denials where you have had nothing alternative fopr those verses.

babs787:

What was the day referring to considering the other part of the statement that says 'the day you eat the fruit'

The day does not necessary mean that it was a mere physical death that was meant. Satan who came to them also knew that the whole import of God's admonition to them was a spiritual matter - he knew God was not speaking in terms of physical or natural death and living. They were already LIVING whene Satan came to slicker them with a false promise that they would not surely DIE. They were already seeing with their EYES before Satan told them that their eyes would be OPENED (Genesis 3:4 & 5).

Did you also ponder about those verses and wonder that Satan was speaking not in physical or natural terms - when as a matter of FACT, they were already LIVING with OPENED EYES?

This is why I asked you to look carefully at the context - and all will become clear to you - instead of seeking to deliberately argue away from the gist of the verses and read your own pretexts into them! grin

babs787:

Good to hear you say you are waiting for my rebuttal. Let me remind you that when we are through with this, we will go and debate the previously raised questions cool

I have never been shy of bleaching you guys - and I will always do so as long as you bring your islamic hypocrisy to bear.

babs787:

You are the one trying to force what is not into that verse which happened to be glaring.

No wahala - that is why I have offered you the simple challenge of clearly going one step fuurther and stop behaving like a lazy student. You cliamed to know the bible very well, abi? Seriously gufted people with knowledge do not sit down and DENY issues. . . that is the easiest thing anybody can do.

Take one step further and prove your mettle by exegeting those verses.

babs787:

these are the verses again:

Go to that book of Genesis and you would see that they never had any problem nor God telling or commanind them as in the above statement prior to the eating of the fruit. They moved freely, they didnt face any hardship but had to go through the above after eating the fruit. It was the eating of the fruit that made God to tell her as in the above verse. Now, please do you think God would have told her that if she has not eaten that fruit? God told her that as the punishment for eating the fruit

Are you not saying the same thing that you have not been able to prove up until now? he "punishment" was NOT a curse! Since you pretend to know so much and have been the one reading "CURSE" upon Eve - [lease quote the verse where it says God CURSED Eve! Period.

babs787:

Also he made this statement to Adam after eating the fruit. You should know that Adam lived in that Garden peacefully and confortably before the issung of eating the fruit came up but God had to tell him that being the punishment for eating the fruit.

Did that suggest that God placed any CURSES upon Adam? I ahve demonstrated that the curse was not upon Adam, but upon the ground for his sake. If you find a verse where God cursed Adama and Eve, please simply save the cacophony and quote the verse directly. Thank you.

babs787:

What does that look like my dear? Did God place any hardship on her before eating that fruit?

Does islam teach that every hardship is the same thing as a CURSE?

babs787:

No I am not smart but still learning.

Sorry, you don't seem to have been able to demonstrate your pretended scholarship.

babs787:

Now, did God place any hardship on them before they ate the fruit? Is that statement not supposed to be punishment for her sin?

Punishment for sin - yep. CURSE upon Eve - a big NO!

If you find the CURSE upon Eve, please stop the argument and simply post it directly.

babs787:

Stop twisting the word of God (inspired word of God grin). You know the truth that made that statement after eating the fruit which he commanded them not to and you are very aware that God never told them what he did in those verses. The eating of the fruit brought about that and it served as a punishment for eating the fruit. Deny the fact again. cool

Don't take a heart-attack on this simple thing. I never twisted the word of God; and all this while, the CURSE you are disingenously reading into the text upon Eve is what I have challenged you to simply post. Is that too hard for you as well? grin

babs787:

Ok, good. God made that statement because of the sin they committed. God did not give that command when they havent eaten that fruit but had to that after eating the fruit. Please does that not look like a punishment for the sin committed by them?

You're beginning to sound like abroken record just to prove that you have no case.

God did not curse Eve - and even though you want to force that pretext into the context, please be informed that even Islam does not teach that illiterate idea.

Drop your pretext, and you will no longer be chasing your confusion.

babs787:

You should prepare to answer the questions on Jesus being sent to the whole world

has this issue already worn you out that you can't wait to finish it off nicely? grin Please save the hypocrisy and let us know that you're only saving face.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by Bobbyaf(m): 6:07pm On Jan 05, 2008
Babs787 Adam's death in the context of Genesis 2 was both physical and spiritual. I am inclined to think however that God stressed the physical death. If you examine the sentence construction carefully, you'll notice God said "shall die"

If God had meant a spiritual death it would mean that both Adam and Eve could not have been restored. You see the word "shall" connotates certainty, and if it was intended to mean a spiritual death as Pilgrim is sugesting, then both our parents would have died without the possibility of salvation.

So in essence Adam and Eve were not expected to have died instantaneously, or where would the love of God be manifested in trying to restore them?

Genesis 3:15 points to the reality of Jesus death for the sins of the world caused by Eve and Adam.
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.”

Here Christ Himself their Creator spoke to their salvation. Although He adressed Satan directly who possessed and spoke through the serpent, Christ was addressing the conflict that would exist between good and evil, and that one day He the seed of the woman would be bruised(as seen in His death on calvary), but Satan's head would be crushed. In other words as long as good existed evil will never have free reign. Good will always be there to keep it in check because of what God's Son did on calvary. There will always be two kinds of people. Those that follow after righteousness, and those that follow after evil. Seth's descendants followed God, while Cain's followed evil.

Christ was that seed and eventually did manifest Himself to die on behalf of the world as promised. Christ Himself in the NT spoke of this often.

John 6:51 says, 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 6:33pm On Jan 05, 2008
@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

If God had meant a spiritual death it would mean that both Adam and Eve could not have been restored. You see the word "shall" connotates certainty, and if it was intended to mean a spiritual death as Pilgrim is sugesting, then both our parents would have died without the possibility of salvation.

Spiritual death does NOT suggest that there would be no possibility of salvation. Two things you should always keep clearly in mind:

(a) If God meant a literal, physical death, they both would have died that very day! The fact that this did not occur that very day points out that we have to seek to understand its context - and from all indication, because the verse is prophetic in character, it is nothing short of a spiritual death.

(b) the condition of man when God sent His Son is such that we were ALL dead in sins - that is what the Bible teaches in Ephesians 2:1 & 5 - "we were dead in sins" even though we were physically alive.

The idea you are espousing clearly did not take these issues into consideration; for if you did examine them carefully, you would not assume that spritual death meant that there was no possibility of a recovery.

1 Cor. 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by Bobbyaf(m): 11:46pm On Jan 05, 2008
My argument is simply this Pilgrim. The expression "in the day, " does not confine itself to spiritual death. Logically speaking death connotes the cessation of life, be it spiritual, or physical. In my understanding "in the day, " means that at what ever moment Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, the process of death both physically and spiritually would have started.

As usual the KJV seems to pose a problem in its manner of translation.
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by pilgrim1(f): 5:47am On Jan 06, 2008
Hi again @Bobbyaf,

I understand your point and where you're coming from; and there's no reason for me to hold my views as superior to yours or anyone's. I can only present them as coherently as I possibly can manage so that the sense is not lost - and when examined closely in relation to other verses, they should be found to hold true and firm.

The principle of Biblical exegesis is such that a verse cannot just be interpreted solely on its own. It has to be compared with other verses (cf. 1 Cor. 2:13 - "comparing spiritual things with spiritual"wink as well as not taking a single verse privately to assume an idea (2 Pet. 1:20 - "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation"wink. These are the two things I often bear in mind when reading and studying the Bible - and that is why I often make the points that people read in my entries the way they appear.

That said, the point in Genesis specifically points to spiritual death rather than merely physical or natural death. A few points to clarify this:

(a) "in the day" does not point to dying physically that very day - for as is clear in the verses examined so far, neither Adam nor Eve died physically that very day!

(b) spiritual death is not something that begins and transits slowly - it happens instantaneously! That is what happened the very moment that their sin brought (spiritual) death to them, and the effect of that spiritual death was seen in their dread of the presence of God (Gen. 3:8 - "Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God"wink.

(c) the collective testimony of Scripture is that this death (spiritual death) passed upon EVERY single being that ever lived - even over those who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression (Romans 5:14).

(d) scripture describes the experience of spiritual death in other terms - especially as evidenced in the life of the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14 - "the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"wink

(e) however, the basic principle that speaks of this specific experience in the event in Genesis is well encapsulated in 1 Corinthians 15:22 -- "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive". You can see here that being "made alive" is not a matter of being physically alive - for even Christians also die physically. The death that all die in Adam is spiritual death - it does not matter that a man lives the age of Methuselah.

The exceptions to physical death in Scripture are enunciated in Enoch who was taken by God and did not experience physical death; Elijah who went up by a chariot of fire; (and possibly Melchizedek - although this is debatable).

The guiding principle is this:

Muslims wonder how the vicarious death and resurrection of Christ should benefit even those who lived in the OT before He was born in the NT. I have debated this very issue with auwal87 before in another thread - but the answer is simply understood in the verse just cited above: "even so in Christ shall all be made alive". The resurrection is a true event because of JESUS CHRIST and no one else. Second, it is a future event (SHALL be made alive).

It is not only in the NT that this hope of resurrection was expressed - we know that for a fact! Muslims are more comfortable to run to the OT to examine issues (but when they are shown, they are still left clueless). In the OT, however, Job also looked for the hope of the Resurrection in connection with the REDEEMER:

Job 19:25-27

25For I know that my Redeemer liveth,
and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

26And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:

27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold,
and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Beautiful hope! cheesy Not only did Job (as far back as in the OT) declare clearly that he had a hope of the Resurrection at the latter day after worms destroy his body; but notice what he called the Redeemer by inspiration - "yet in my flesh shall I see God" - he acknowledges that the Redeemer IS GOD, and his eyes shall see HIM in that day!

What we lost in Adam is given to us in greater glory! Spiritual death came through Adam; and true LIFE has come to us through the Son of God - Jesus Christ Himself, the Prince of life!

Many blessings. smiley
Re: Jesus Died For The Sins Of Mankind? by olabowale(m): 3:43pm On Jan 06, 2008
@Bobbyaf:
As usual the KJV seems to pose a problem in its manner of translation.
: Before I say anything about your postulation that there is a problem of translation in the KJV, tell me what version was before KJV? Why was it abandoned? What version was KJV copied from? Why are there fewer Books in KJV than Douay Version? Why, why, why, my yard man?

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