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Stats: 1062949 members, 1236068 topics. Date: Friday, 24 May 2013 at 10:37 AM
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by MsDarkSkin: 4:01am On Aug 19, 2012|
Smooth what exactly is your point?
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by MsDarkSkin: 4:03am On Aug 19, 2012|
Lol pyguru is the spambot system. They just named it.
You have to be sure you are posting compatible links or else pyguru will refuse it and hide your post.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 3:34pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Wow I can't believe how far off topic everything has gone and how little people have spoken about the Sudanese.
So back to the Sudanese. I have family in both Sudan and Egypt so I'm fairly familiar with them. There is no identity crisis in Sudan. Sudanese are diverse but all are Sudanese. I am trying to explain something I think that people are not seeming to understand. Both North Sudanese and Southern Egyptians view themselves as black! They don't think they are just like other Arabs! They are [b]Black Arabs [/b]by phenotype typically and language and Afro-Arab by culture. It is simple as that. But there are some Sudanese that are fully Arab so there is no need for them to identify as black as you will see below. I speak Arabic and I am familiar with their culture. I guess I relate to them because I'm mistaken for Southern Egyptian or North Sudanese even by Egyptians, Sudanese, Ethiopians and Eritreans. I resemble North Sudanese most even though I'm Horner. Anyway Sudan is a vast country composed of multiple ethnicities since its one of the biggest countries in Africa.
The North Sudanese and Southern Egyptians are primarily a mixture of varying degrees of Nilote, Cushitic and Semitic. Some groups look more Cushite (like the Beja that speak a language related to Somali), others look more Nilote, others are Arab like the Rashaida and many look like mix. There are also minority Fulani in West Sudan and some West African ethnic groups though a minority compared to Nilo-Saharan, Semitic, Nilote, Cushitic groups. This region was a crossroads for all these populations just like Egypt is a mix of Semitic, Cushitic (actually Cushitic DNA E1b1b1 M78 comes from Egypt so really technically it is Northeast Egyptian), Nilotic, European, Levantine etc because Egypt was also a multiracial society as well. For example Egyptians and North Sudanese/Southern Egyptians share E1b1b1 M78 with Afar, Ethiopians, Somalis and Horners and other lineages. They also share genetics with Nilotics and Semites.
The North Sudanese and Southern Egyptians did not lose their African culture! In South Egypt and North Sudan the people still speak language of ancient Nubia - Nubi which is Nilo-Saharan. They are called Nubi in their country and identify as black and have a distinct culture. Watch this video to understand as Southern Egyptian Nubi man explains Egypt is African (North Egyptians look Arab, Southerns are darker and less mixed which gives an idea how original Nile Valley population looked):
Sudan is so mixed some identify as black like other Africans and others see themselves as different from other Africans and as Afro-Arab or just Sudanese Arab. They always identify as Sudanese first before Arab because their culture is unique. You will understand why when you see how different they can look. The culture of Sudan unites people of various phenotypes. Below are examples
First some Southern Egyptian (Nubi) that many North Sudanese are related to in culture and language
Mounir famous singer who identifies as Nubi not Arab
North East Sudan (Beja) - Cushitic - They make up 10-15% of the total Northern Sudanese and live from South Egypt down to Eritrea and speak same language group as Oromo, Afar and Somali
Rashaida (Semitic) - North Sudan
Sudanese with Nilotic influence
Look at these crowds see the mix of Nilotic influenced and Afro-Arab, Cushite etc. features?
Afrah Mall in Sudan
The only major thing separating them from Southern Sudanese is culture, religion etc.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 4:15pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi: Wow I can't believe how far off topic everything has gone and how little people have spoken about the Sudanese.Actually you are very right. It is hard for many of us living in less multiracial or more racist societies to understand how someone with a “black” skin can be Arab but looking at those pictures, those people cannot be strictly "black"African either. They are just Sudanese I guess. It just reminds me of Brazil, a wonderful blend and that is how the world was supposed to be when different races meet. I guess that is how Ancient Egypt was , a mix of races. It belong to the world! Anyway thanks for the clarification and I am planning to visit Sudan soon. Sudan and Somalia are the only East African country I have not visited
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 4:30pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Kind of like Brazil but difference is that Brazil is obsessed with skin color and Sudanese are not. It is normal to see dark Sudanese man with woman that looks Arab and it is normal because they are both Sudanese. Sudan is awesome. = ) My family in Khartoum loves it. Have you been to Egypt before? I think people don't know that people who look black are found in Egypt.
Most Nubi in Egypt look Afro-Arab or Arab but some Nubi don't even look mixed.
These are more Nubi
This famous Nubi Egyptian singer Hamza El Din he recently passed away
The Southern Egyptians do face some racism in Egypt but nothing like America. Some racism they face is like in Egyptian movies they don't play big part or have stereotypical roles in movies. They definitely see themselves as black. They are part of Egypt that are hidden from world unfortunately.
There is even this rap group that is Southern Egyptian called Black Theama that sing about racism in Egypt and identify as black and talk about these issues.
But in general Egypt is multiracial and people get along fine. Not all Arab countries are racist like people make it out to be. Egyptians like Sudanese are very hospitable and kind people.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 4:42pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Just to add one more thing, Egypt used to have Nubi Egyptian president Anwar Sadat (His father was Nubi Southern Egyptian and mother Nubi North Sudan). There is border between two countries but same Nubi people live on both sides. People see him as Egyptian not as different than other egyptians. So there is no black and white like in America where people try to make each other different. They all share same culture and language. Americans see him as just black guy but Egyptians see him as Egyptian of Southern Egyptian/Afro-Arab stock and don't try to divide their people
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 5:01pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi:It’s awesome. We have a Nubian minority in Kenya too who weer brought here by the British. By the way many of us assume that Egypt is Arab country because we rarely see African faces playing a role in the political and social life of the country. I always assume black Egyptians are a very tiny minority. I know Anwar Sadat and Tantawi are of Nubian descent but other than that, black Egyptians are often hidden from view. Well visiting Egypt has always been part of my dream but first I would like to visit Northern Sudan . By the way, I did not know there were so many Cushites in Sudan; of course I knew about the Beja but Sudan always seemed like Nilotic-Semitic country. Also thanks to lots of negative coverage by the media which played Darfur conflict as Arab v African, thing a lot of Africans tend to have a negative view of North Sudan. I think the worst stories of racism in the Arab world usually come from Lebanon where African workers, particularly female domestic house helps, are treated very badly but I know a lot of Africans are living normally in Dubai, Saudi Arabia etc. By the way where do the Copts originate from? Do they play a major role in Egyptian politics/social life or are they another invisible minority?
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 5:11pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi: Just to add one more thing, Egypt used to have Nubi Egyptian president Anwar Sadat (His father was Nubi Southern Egyptian and mother Nubi North Sudan). There is border between two countries but same Nubi people live on both sides. People see him as Egyptian not as different than other egyptians. So there is no black and white like in America where people try to make each other different. They all share same culture and language. Americans see him as just black guy but Egyptians see him as Egyptian of Southern Egyptian/Afro-Arab stock and don't try to divide their peopleI love the picture! Poor guy. Well American society is sick. But why do you think the Nubians or people of Nubi desent are at the bottom of Egyptian society? Are there many in universities, businesses, professional careers? Are there many in military? Nubians always made great soldiers. Are there Cushites who are indigenous in Egypt, as in who have been in the country from time immemorial or did many of them immigrate from North Sudan? Good to hear Egypt is not that racist, a lot of Arab countries tend to be very egalitarian in my view apart from Lebanon unlike Western countries. I guess Lebanon and Libya are the worst countries to live in….Nubians used to be powerful, did they own slaves?
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 5:23pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi:These guys are cool, but Egypt is a country grappling with many social and political issues during the transition. I wonder how well their message is received by the general populace who may not even acknowledge that racism exists. I heard of a controversy where a Lebanese singer called the black Egyptians "monkeys". Sad. Anyway, you are painting a great image of Egypt and North Sudan and I must say I’m letting my guard down . The Nubians used to be Christians, I wonder if there some who still preserve that heritage.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 5:25pm On Aug 20, 2012|
The more Mediterranean/Arab mixed Egyptians are bigger in population because so much was invested in north and because when they made Aswan dam in Egypt it was easier for North Egypt to grow fast compared to South which ended up with less resources. But there are plenty of dark Egyptians and you can see them more when you go South. It's true they are not in politics much and Western TV does not show them much. But you see them on Egyptian TV and movies but they don't get leading roles as much.
Like after Egyptian revolution the most famous chef on Egyptian TV was Ghalia you see she is southern and people love her so much even guys would call to ask to marry her:
Definitely there is racism within Arab countries but even against other Arabs who are poor, against other groups like Asians, Indians etc. Many Africans live in Dubai with no problem at all. In fact Egyptians do not consider themselves Arab at all but Egyptian. Real Arabs are only Gulf ones. Like an Egyptian in Gulf Arab country might not be treated well. And a Gulf Arab in Egypt will be hated. A Sudanese in Yemen will be treated well and welcome but a recent Ethiopian or Somali refugee will face problems. But then the Ethiopians or Somalis that lived in Yemen for many generations are treated like other Yemeni. There are Saudis descended from Hausa and Fulani and they are treated like other Arabs.
The Copts are exactly same as other Northern Egyptians. They just kept Coptic religion Egyptians had before Islam. Egyptians were mixed even before Islam with Mediterranean groups anyway. I have a good friend that is Coptic and she looks just like other Egyptians. Typical Egyptians have distinct look they are dark in skin tone compared to Lebanese etc.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 5:35pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Black Theama is very popular with all Egyptian. Mohamed Mounir is Southern Egyptian and he is considered Egyptian star loved by all.
There are some Nubian Christian but they are minority.
Yes the Lebanese did call the Nubians monkey in her song. It was Haifa Wehbe I really don't like her. Supposedly it was just lyrics some guy wrote for her but she still sang it. Just to explain the Lebanese, Syrians, Palestinians, Jordanians are not from multiracial society like Egypt or Sudan. The few blacks in their country are descended from slave and are treated very badly. Lebanese try to be more like Europeans. I have friend from there and she is half Asian and they did not treat her well. Not a great society. Out of that group Syria is okay but Sudanese people hate Lebanon.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 5:48pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Nubi are not at bottom but they are more poor and smaller population. But they are not at bottom they are like other Egyptians in universities, businesses etc. There are Cushites indigenous in Egypt these are Beja that live in South Egypt and they have always been there since time of Ancient Egypt.
These are Cushitic Beja warriors found in ancient egyptian
These are Beja of Egypt and Sudan now
Nubians were awesome. A lot of Eurocentric historians will act as if Nubians were all slaves which is not true. Nubia just like Egypt was multiracial society and mixed. Of course the Egyptians in their painting will draw their enemies as looking ugly or different which is what these historians talk about but really the Nubians some looked like Southern Egyptians, some Cushite and some looked Nilotic. Nubians ruled Egypt for a time and of course they had slaves like other ancient peoples and when they did rule Egypt became better because fact is that Egypt and Nubia were not two separate places but a continuum of same peoples and culture. Taharqa is famous Nubian king who conquered Egypt.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 6:03pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Anyway, what is interesting here is that Egyptians are just “Egyptians”, like they have always been from time of Ancient Egypt. Reminds me of this Egyptian Egyptologist who was asked whether Ancient Egyptians were black or white and he simply said that AE were neither white or Black I have read Sudanese forums and seen the hate they spew on the Lebanese, but the Lebanese community in Sudan seems to relatively tiny. Seeing how the Lebanese tend to create insular communities wherever they go, I am not surprised they can be so racist in their own backyard. But I guess for many poor people in the Arab/Muslim world, including blacks, countries like Lebanon are seen as land of opportunity; just like the way many other Africans cross over to the West for opportunities due to cultural similarities.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 6:21pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Well I love Taharqa and Piankhi! Anyway, I don't buy that Eurocentric crap, they are strenuously clinging to Ancient Egypt, it is ridiculous. If Cushites(the Beja) are indigenous to Egypt, then they are founders of ancient Egypt no doubt but this is a debate people will have till the end of time . I like the bolded, AE and Nubia was truly a continuum.In fact North Sudan has lots of Pyramids, more than Southern Egypt itself.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 6:26pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Lebanon isn't that rich. Lebanese are not always treated great in Gulf countries either where many Lebanese women are trafficked to. To be honest Asian workers have it much worse than the Africans. Lebanon and Sudan have little to do with each other and neither groups are in each others countries much. Lebanese are more in West Africa. Sudan has more Egyptians and Gulf Arabs. One of the Sudanese tribes Rashaida is actually from Saudi. Anyway bottom line is Egypt and Sudanese are Africans and Arabs and some are black some aren't.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 6:31pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi:These guys looked mixed...Nilotic+Cushitic
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 6:34pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi:True. African is what we are.."black" is a very divisive term. We are simply Africans!
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 6:36pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Ya Egypt was a Northeast African empire that only got mixed later on. Thanks I'm glad you learned something. By the way [b]Sudanese guys are so freakin hot [/b]if you have noticed they are diverse. I don't think just Cushites founded Egypt I think Egyptians, Cushites, Nilo-Saharans all came together first to create Nubia and Ancient Egypt and then the Mediterranean, Arabs, Levantines came and mixed with them later.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 6:40pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Yup Beja are more mixed now with NiloSaharan and Semitic like other Egyptians and Sudanese.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 7:02pm On Aug 20, 2012|
lavashi:Thanks for the perspective. I like getting info from people who have actually lived in a country, not those who have read about it. Anyway as for AE, shows everyone can be part of that great civilization. I plan to be in Sudan ASAP Pity I have not visited this beautiful country
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 7:35pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Thanks! Well I'm off now glad to have helped. By the way Sudan itself means land of Blacks (Bilad as-Sudan) which is exactly what it is. No identity crisis there lol
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Black Kenichi(m): 8:20pm On Aug 20, 2012|
Thank you for the info and pics about North Sudan and Upper Egypt. I have to say that both North Sudanese an Upper Egyptians are very underrated and underpraised in terms of African beauty!
Many men (including me) would fight and die to come home to a woman that looks like this. She's so beautiful!
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 5:32pm On Aug 21, 2012|
Yes definitely. As much as people want to deny it the fact is that Egypt was never in isolation. Chadic, Nilosaharan, Cushitic, Semitic groups etc. all of these contributed to history and genetics of Egypt and Nubia.
Just as an example let's take the Cushitic Beja that live from Egypt to Eritrea and have always been there. Look at how similar they dress/look and their hair is with other Cushitic speakers (now there are more differences in dress)
Afar man (Djibouti)
Beja (Egypt, Sudan, Eritrea)
Somali (this was before 1950's the dress they wore)
Notice similar dagger on his arm
Egypt was never isolated and still isn't. Egypt reflects diversity of Africa and always did. I know Hausa speak Chadic language do they dress originally similar to this?
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 1:00pm On Aug 22, 2012|
lavashi:Interesting that you should bring the issue of Bilad as Sudan when I was just reading a Sudanese forum where someone was saying that it meant the soil was black, not land of black people http://www.sudanforum.net/showthread.php?t=100191. I just laughed. I guess the same issue exists with AE where people say KMT actully meant "black land"(black fertile soils) not land of the blacks. Anyway, am comfortable with an ancient Egypt which was a multiracial society with Cushitic, Nilo-Saharan, the Levantines, Mediterranean people etc but it seems there are people who want “Exclusive Rights” to AE …many Somalis I have met for example are already on a “victory lap” in claiming ancient Egypt
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Kenyaphilia: 1:20pm On Aug 22, 2012|
lavashi:From Wikipedia, it seems Hausas changed their language to an Afro-Asiatic language at one point in their history since they seem to have Nilo-Saharan origin. So I don't think they are Cushitic in the real sense of the word but they share same language family.
According to a Y-DNA study by Hassan et al. (2008), about 40% of Hausa in Sudan carry the West Eurasian haplogroup R1b. The remainder and majority belong to various Sub-Saharan paternal lineages: 15.6% B, 12.5% A and 12.5% E1b1a. A small minority of around 3% are E1b1b clade bearers, a haplogroup which is most common in North Africa and the Horn of Africa.
In terms of overall ancestry, an autosomal DNA study by Tishkoff et al. (2009) found the Hausa to be most closely related to Nilotic populations from Nigeria, Cameroon, central Chad and South Sudan. This suggests that the Hausa and other modern Chadic speaking populations originally spoke Nilo-Saharan languages, before later adopting languages from the Afro-Asiatic family.
"From K = 5-13, all Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad cluster with west-central Afroasiatic Chadic speaking populations (Fig. S15). These results are consistent with linguistic and archeological data, suggesting a possible common ancestry of Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from an eastern Sudanese homeland within the past ~10,500 years, with subsequent bi-directional migration westward to Lake Chad and southward into modern day southern Sudan, and more recent migration eastward into Kenya and Tanzania ~3,000 ya (giving rise to Southern Nilotic speakers) and westward into Chad ~2,500 ya (giving rise to Central Sudanic speakers) (S62, S65, S67, S74). A proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7,000 ya from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have caused many western Nilo-Saharans to shift to Chadic languages (S99). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hausa_people
Also, they have a unique culture that is very much influenced by fusion of Islamic plus their own unique African culture. I think the Hausas on NL can clarify that, I always like getting info from the horse's mouth
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by PhysicsQED(m): 11:16pm On Aug 22, 2012|
Please don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. The theory of Hausas "changing their language" from an unidentified (because no one can identify this alleged original language or its remnants!) "Nilo-Saharan" language to what they speak now (Hausa) after encountering some Chadic speakers is a junk conjecture by a lazy researcher who is trying to racialize language differentiation and diversification to an extreme extent. In their warped minds, languages are indications of separate branches of humanity, not a continuum, and it's impossible for a group having the racial aspects of the Hausa to speak a language which is closer on the linguistic continuum to that of North Africans or Horn of Africa residents (who, by the way, are quite distinct from one another racially/genetically as well, despite some shared ancestry) than their neighbors without another group coming in and "giving them" the language.
Islam among Hausa is due to ancient trade, and later to Fulani conquest and nothing more.
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 4:00am On Aug 23, 2012|
Thanks for the info on the Hausa. Somalis have no right to claim it. No one has a right to claim it except for Egyptians. Somalis were just part of neighboring populations just like Nilo-Saharans that traded, lived in and shared language group and gene flow with Egyptians. There was a point in history when the Puntites (Somalia/Eritrea) allied with Kushites/Nubians to attack Egypt. If they were the same then they wouldn't have tried to destroy egypt lol
"The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).
The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack."
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by lavashi: 7:42am On Aug 23, 2012|
Kenyaphilia what tribe are you? Kikuyu?
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by SmoothCrim: 8:52am On Aug 23, 2012|
Only and I mean Only GHANAIAN RULE can SAVE SUDAN!!!!!!!
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by Mister G: 2:35pm On Aug 23, 2012|
SmoothCrim: Only and I mean Only GHANAIAN RULE can SAVE SUDAN!!!!!!!
You must be on drugs, to be making that statement. Ghana cannot even save itself, btw what is west africa doing about the situation in Mali. Absolutely nothing. So clean up your own region, before trying to dictate otherwise to others. Hell, do you thing the Egyptians going to allow you to invade their area of influence in especially in relations to the nile river? Think about it!
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by SmoothCrim: 2:57pm On Aug 23, 2012|
Mister G:We would rule it like the British did!!! Mali is being solved unlike Somalia which descended into chaos !!!! Mali is quiet!!! Forget about Egypt!! They stood by and supported many massacres!! Not exactly leadership material!!! Only Ghanaian RULE can save Sudan! Nubia means Gold and Ghanaians are the Gold masters!!! Give ME Sudan!!!!
|Re: The Sudanese Arabs: Sudan's Identity Crisis by PhysicsQED(m): 4:27pm On Aug 23, 2012|
I'm still annoyed by that junk that Kenyaphilia informed me about and I have to make another comment on this "Hausas changing their language" crap from the imbeciles cited on wikipedia. There are many other Afroasiatic languages spoken in Nigeria, but by smaller groups, such as Angas and Bachama. Common sense would indicate that an Afroasiatic speaking (specifically, proto-Chadic) ancestral group moved into West Africa, including Nigeria and settled there and settled there so long ago that they had time to diversify and branch out into separate Chadic branches such as Hausa, Angas, Bachama, Boghom, Bade/Bedde etc. If the Hausa much later incorporated some non-Hausa into their population due to conquests and/or slave trade, then that's a totally separate issue from whether the language they speak now is rooted in what the distant ancestors of the core Hausa originally spoke (it is) or whether it was borrowed from some unidentified and unidentifiable "other" migrating group that is not the proto-Hausa themselves. The numerous distinct Chadic languages in West Africa that compose West, Central, and East Chadic and the great diversity of Chadic should clue people into the fact that there was not some "language change" but that Chadic speakers are supposed to have a certain "racial" or if you like, genetic profile, which the Hausa, Angas, Bura, Masa, etc. fit into, rather than a racial profile like that of the Horn of Africa peoples or North Africans. Nobody can give any evidence of the supposed "Nilo-Saharan" language or languages the Angas, Bachama, and every single other Chadic group was speaking prior to speaking what they speak now, and asserting that every single one of the groups changed their language or had ancestors that did, is just foolish and is the most complex (rather than the simplest) explanation possible. This "language change" crap is racialism from quack anthropologists.
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