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Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 1:54pm On Sep 27, 2012
ciphoenix: it says behavior is instinct in the absence of previous learning. Am i missing something here?
In other words, behavior is different from thinking - that's what is explained in your link. So, animals are doing things on their natural way based on instincts(even if they are thought they act accordingly but they can not reason - what would pass for thinking). You are missing instincts with thinking ability!
Re: Do Animals Think?? by ciphoenix: 2:09pm On Sep 27, 2012
all4naija: In other words, behavior is different from thinking - that's what is explained in your link. So, animals are doing things on their natural way based on instincts(even if they are thought they act accordingly but they can not reason - what would pass for thinking). You are missing instincts with thinking ability!
http://www.livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html:
Some animals are more thoughtful than others, according to a comparative psychologist who says evidence is mounting that dolphins, macaque monkeys and other animals share our ability to reflect upon, monitor or regulate their states of mind.
J. David Smith of the University at Buffalo notes that humans are capable of metacognition, or thinking about thinking ."Humans can feel uncertainty. They know when they do not know or remember, and they respond well to uncertainty by deferring response and seeking information," Smith writes in the September issue of the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences.
And accumulating research, he says, suggests metacognition is not unique to humans.
"The idea is that some minds have a cognitive executive that can look in on the human's or the animal's thoughts and problem-solving and look at howits going and see if there are ways to guide it or if behavior needs to pause while more information is obtained," Smith told LiveScience.
Robert Hampton, assistant professor of psychology at EmoryUniversity in Georgia, who studies neuroscience and animal behavior, agrees that some animals show metacognition.
"Work with primates has shown many parallels with human metacognitive performance," said Hampton, who was not involved in the current review study. "In particular, some of the studies done by Dr. Smith and colleagues have shown close correspondence between the performance of humans and monkeys in nearly identical metacognitive tests."
Thoughtful tests
Testing metacognition in humans is a relative walk in the park, as we can verbalize our feelings of knowing or not knowing. But animals can show off their mental skills without words. For instance, scientists give animals difficult perceptual tasks, such as deciding whether a box on a screen contained thousands of dots or just a few. The animals also have an out: They can decline the trial and avoid a penalty for a wrong response.
The original experiment showingsuch mental abilities in a non-human animal involved the dolphin Natua. "When uncertain, the dolphin clearly hesitated and wavered between his two possible responses," Smith said."But when certain, he swam toward his chosen response so fast that his bow wave would soak the researchers' electronic switches."
"The opposite would be they justreact to the world," Smith said. That's exactly what studies on pigeons have shown. When in doubt, the birds just plow ahead,it seems.
Several converging studies now show that capuchin monkeys barely express the cognitive ability that dolphins have expressed, though similar studies of macaque monkeys suggests these primates do thinkabout thinking.
Smith said perhaps certain branches in the primate order developed metacognitive abilitieswhile others didn't. Another idea is that the relatively big-brained animals, like dolphins, evolved this capacity.
So even if lowly pigeons don't boast the mental prowess, crowsmight, he figures. "It would be great to see if the ultimate in birdbrains have this capacity as well,"Smith said. Other research finds crows to be amazingly smart and adept at tool use .
Self-awareness
And while metacognition can involve self-awareness, the "I" part of the equation isn't a necessary ingredient, Smith said. Scientists are not sure if other animals possess self-awareness .
Hampton gives two examples to illustrate metacognition with andwithout self-awareness. If a psychologist is asked if she can answer a five-year-old's psychology question, she will answer yes, reasoning that she isan expert and that a 5-year-old can't have too difficult of a question. "This is likely to be correct, and thus the psychologist has correctly predicted her cognitive performance. However, she did not need to introspect in any significant way to do this," Hampton said.
Say that same psychologist is asked if she'll remember the neighbor's name when he comesover for a party. When she tries to recall the name, she comes up with "Dave," the correct name. Soshe would answer "yes."
"Again, this metacognitive prediction of cognitive performance is likely correct. But note here that the psychologist isthe only one in a position to know with confidence whether she can remember the name," Hampton said. "No one else couldpredict her performance as well as she could, contrasting with the other example. This second case of metacognition is much more likely to involve self-awareness or consciousness."
Further research is needed to tease out any self-awareness in animals, Smith said
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 2:26pm On Sep 27, 2012
ciphoenix: http://www.livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html:
Some animals are more thoughtful than others, according to a comparative psychologist who says evidence is mounting that dolphins, macaque monkeys and other animals share our ability to reflect upon, monitor or regulate their states of mind.
J. David Smith of the University at Buffalo notes that humans are capable of metacognition, or thinking about thinking ."Humans can feel uncertainty. They know when they do not know or remember, and they respond well to uncertainty by deferring response and seeking information," Smith writes in the September issue of the journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences.
And accumulating research, he says, suggests metacognition is not unique to humans.
"The idea is that some minds have a cognitive executive that can look in on the human's or the animal's thoughts and problem-solving and look at howits going and see if there are ways to guide it or if behavior needs to pause while more information is obtained," Smith told LiveScience.
Robert Hampton, assistant professor of psychology at EmoryUniversity in Georgia, who studies neuroscience and animal behavior, agrees that some animals show metacognition.
"Work with primates has shown many parallels with human metacognitive performance," said Hampton, who was not involved in the current review study. "In particular, some of the studies done by Dr. Smith and colleagues have shown close correspondence between the performance of humans and monkeys in nearly identical metacognitive tests."
Thoughtful tests
Testing metacognition in humans is a relative walk in the park, as we can verbalize our feelings of knowing or not knowing. But animals can show off their mental skills without words. For instance, scientists give animals difficult perceptual tasks, such as deciding whether a box on a screen contained thousands of dots or just a few. The animals also have an out: They can decline the trial and avoid a penalty for a wrong response.
The original experiment showingsuch mental abilities in a non-human animal involved the dolphin Natua. "When uncertain, the dolphin clearly hesitated and wavered between his two possible responses," Smith said."But when certain, he swam toward his chosen response so fast that his bow wave would soak the researchers' electronic switches."
"The opposite would be they justreact to the world," Smith said. That's exactly what studies on pigeons have shown. When in doubt, the birds just plow ahead,it seems.
Several converging studies now show that capuchin monkeys barely express the cognitive ability that dolphins have expressed, though similar studies of macaque monkeys suggests these primates do thinkabout thinking.
Smith said perhaps certain branches in the primate order developed metacognitive abilitieswhile others didn't. Another idea is that the relatively big-brained animals, like dolphins, evolved this capacity.
So even if lowly pigeons don't boast the mental prowess, crowsmight, he figures. "It would be great to see if the ultimate in birdbrains have this capacity as well,"Smith said. Other research finds crows to be amazingly smart and adept at tool use .
Self-awareness
And while metacognition can involve self-awareness, the "I" part of the equation isn't a necessary ingredient, Smith said. Scientists are not sure if other animals possess self-awareness .
Hampton gives two examples to illustrate metacognition with andwithout self-awareness. If a psychologist is asked if she can answer a five-year-old's psychology question, she will answer yes, reasoning that she isan expert and that a 5-year-old can't have too difficult of a question. "This is likely to be correct, and thus the psychologist has correctly predicted her cognitive performance. However, she did not need to introspect in any significant way to do this," Hampton said.
Say that same psychologist is asked if she'll remember the neighbor's name when he comesover for a party. When she tries to recall the name, she comes up with "Dave," the correct name. Soshe would answer "yes."
"Again, this metacognitive prediction of cognitive performance is likely correct. But note here that the psychologist isthe only one in a position to know with confidence whether she can remember the name," Hampton said. "No one else couldpredict her performance as well as she could, contrasting with the other example. This second case of metacognition is much more likely to involve self-awareness or consciousness."
Further research is needed to tease out any self-awareness in animals, Smith said
Doesn't this research prove beyond reasonable doubt that animals don't think? Is it what have been explained what you are passing for thinking. Jeez! You have to comprehend the argument to prove if animals really think not by exercising metacognition (which in the real sense is different from thinking).Metacognition is just a surviving tool. Every animal has brain and exercise it in one way or the other but for thinking it's only humans who do that.

The research is clear that animals don't think!
Re: Do Animals Think?? by ciphoenix: 2:30pm On Sep 27, 2012
all4naija: Doesn't this research prove beyond reasonable doubt that animals don't think? Should what have been explained what you are passing for thinking. Jeez! You have to comprehend the argument to prove if animals really think not by exercising metacognition (which in the real sense is different from thinking).Metacognition is just a surviving tool. Every animal has brain and exercise it in one way or the other but for thinking it's only humans who do that.

The research is clear that animals don't think!
its not instinct either. Unless there's another word for it. Also look up http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-what-is-your-dog-thinking and http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 2:33pm On Sep 27, 2012
ciphoenix: its not instinct either. Unless there's another word for it. Also look up http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-what-is-your-dog-thinking and http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text
Let's call it 'survival instincts' by connotation. I think it can easily pass for instincts than anything else.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by ciphoenix: 2:36pm On Sep 27, 2012
all4naija: Let's call it 'survival instincts' by connotation. I think it can easily pass for instincts than anything else.
Okay Boss
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 2:44pm On Sep 27, 2012
ciphoenix: Okay Boss
You too boss. grin grin grin .
Re: Do Animals Think?? by boyofgodbybirth(m): 3:42pm On Sep 27, 2012
DANILSA: i don waka pass,this topic na for great thinkers and philosophers, make una go ask jona wey read zoology, me na management i read,i will come back latter for expo grin grin grin
AM BACK
Scientists think that animals think:
But what exactly do they think about?
I tire ooooo na money abi na food.............
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Dsage1: 4:41pm On Sep 27, 2012
all4naija: I can only laugh at the line in bold. grin grin grin. Ants do that based on instincts!That is a good example for you.

Now I quite understood you're saying only what you read. Talking about Ants,the following simple experiment will teach you more.

Get ready two spoonful of grain sugar, put one in the very safest conner of your house and the other spoon in the very clean or open place. Study what they would probably does or their reactions to those two spoons putting at different places and tell me the outcome of your study.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Zico0(m): 6:17pm On Sep 27, 2012
2me, i see animals as computers: they r interlectually programmed nd cant not think outside the box.
There level of intelligence vary acordin 2 there kind.
But, we shud not 4get "Mr Niger" frm Biology; animals r adaptive nd respond 2 chnges, nd they also pick patterns. 4xample, the chickens in my compound weneva im headed 2 d backyard 2 dump dirti they quickly 4olo me. As it hz bcum regurlar(they didnt fathom it themselves). Hweva, if i go witout a dusbin they also 4ollo me bcuz they cant do deductive reasoning. On the oder hand, a monkey might not follow me witout d dustbin not cos it thinks perhaps, bcuz nature placed it wit bigger eyes n brains so it can pick two patterns(it cn identify wen im holdin a bin frm wen im not). I think d amount an animal wil do is dependent on wat nature place it wif. We as humans tho we do all sort of reasoning we still cant give robots life. We r jus as stupid 2 God as animals r to us
Im jus sayin: i wasnt a science student.

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Re: Do Animals Think?? by searay(m): 7:47pm On Sep 27, 2012
Some animals like ants and termites do plan for the future, by seraching for food at a certain season and store it for the off season. Or does planing doesn't involve thinking?
Re: Do Animals Think?? by ciphoenix: 8:09pm On Sep 27, 2012
Even computers can learn. They can be programmed to learn
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Dsage1: 8:51pm On Sep 27, 2012
Zico0: 2me, i see animals as computers: they r interlectually programmed nd cant not think outside the box.
There level of intelligence vary acordin 2 there kind.
But, we shud not 4get "Mr Niger" frm Biology; animals r adaptive nd respond 2 chnges, nd they also pick patterns. 4xample, the chickens in my compound weneva im headed 2 d backyard 2 dump dirti they quickly 4olo me. As it hz bcum regurlar(they didnt fathom it themselves). Hweva, if i go witout a dusbin they also 4ollo me bcuz they cant do deductive reasoning. On the oder hand, a monkey might not follow me witout d dustbin not cos it thinks perhaps, bcuz nature placed it wit bigger eyes n brains so it can pick two patterns(it cn identify wen im holdin a bin frm wen im not). I think d amount an animal wil do is dependent on wat nature place it wif. We as humans tho we do all sort of reasoning we still cant give robots life. We r jus as stupid 2 God as animals r to us
Im jus sayin: i wasnt a science student.

Good analysis but the same thing applies to human. For instance, if you know that someone would surely reply your messages,there's tendency that you will always be willing to chat with such a person whether for fun or other thing. But the moment such person start ignoring your messages, you gradually lost interest.

You can test this too on the sets of fowls you're talking. You will see that by the time you carry your said basket like ten time without throwing something to them,they won't follow you again because they were able to remember what you did in the last couple of times.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Dsage1: 8:59pm On Sep 27, 2012
searay: Some animals like ants and termites do plan for the future, by seraching for food at a certain season and store it for the off season. Or does planing doesn't involve thinking?

May God bless you. Even rats do store some food incase of scarcity.

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Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 9:25pm On Sep 27, 2012
D sage:

Now I quite understood you're saying only what you read. Talking about Ants,the following simple experiment will teach you more.

Get ready two spoonful of grain sugar, put one in the very safest conner of your house and the other spoon in the very clean or open place. Study what they would probably does or their reactions to those two spoons putting at different places and tell me the outcome of your study.
Lol... Hahaha... that is funny. I don't have ants in my environment though.Why not tell us the outcome of this your research?
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 9:36pm On Sep 27, 2012
D sage:

Good analysis but the same thing applies to human. For instance, if you know that someone would surely reply your messages,there's tendency that you will always be willing to chat with such a person whether for fun or other thing. But the moment such person start ignoring your messages, you gradually lost interest.

You can test this too on the sets of fowls you're talking. You will see that by the time you carry your said basket like ten time without throwing something to them,they won't follow you again because they were able to remember what you did in the last couple of times.
I think, it is like dabbling into a subject without definition. You must first of all tell us what you are really on about?
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 9:39pm On Sep 27, 2012
searay: Some animals like ants and termites do plan for the future, by seraching for food at a certain season and store it for the off season. Or does planing doesn't involve thinking?
Isn't that part of their instincts? If not, what are ants instincts?
Re: Do Animals Think?? by dczieta: 9:39pm On Sep 27, 2012
of course animals think cuz if they only act on impulse they would be exibiting the same response everytime ......read operant conditioning it tells u that animals think and operate on their environment

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Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 9:40pm On Sep 27, 2012
dczieta: of course animals think cuz if they only act on impulse they would be exibiting the same response everytime ......read operant conditioning it tells u that animals think and operate on their environment
lipsrsealed cheesy
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Dsage1: 10:00pm On Sep 27, 2012
all4naija: Lol... Hahaha... that is funny. I don't have ants in my environment though.Why not tell us the outcome of this your research?

Hmmmm, smart guy,do the research first and let know your result. I'm ready to tell mine first,if you accept to carry out research. If you don't have ants in your environment, go and get them from anywhere possible.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Dsage1: 10:08pm On Sep 27, 2012
dczieta: of course animals think cuz if they only act on impulse they would be exibiting the same response everytime ......read operant conditioning it tells u that animals think and operate on their environment

And conditioned Reflex by Ivan Pavlov.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Candybob(m): 4:47am On Sep 28, 2012
Animals think, the instinct is part of the thought process. Feeding, escaping predators, hunting (try catching a rat and u will understand the level of brain activity involved), selecting and attracting a mate, taking care the young, building a home (if u see wat some animals build), establishing order, politics (those chicken fights are not for nothing), guarding ur territory, quarreling, reconciling, working in a team, is not wat u do without the ability to reason. They have the ability for respect, discipline(the reason they can be tamed), emotions(love, fear, hate, suspicion, trust, empathy, loyalty, even curiousity! Their thought pattern varies but there is nothing basic about any.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by searay(m): 5:46am On Sep 28, 2012
all4naija: Isn't that part of their instincts? If not, what are ants instincts?
you can visit this site for more info http://www.studyenglishtoday.net/can_animals_think.html http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199911/do-animals-think
Re: Do Animals Think?? by simdam500(m): 12:44pm On Sep 28, 2012
Am sure they do(thinkin).
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Bolarge1(m): 4:28pm On Sep 28, 2012
WHO SAID ANIMALS DONT THINK?

Re: Do Animals Think?? by searay(m): 11:20am On Sep 29, 2012
all4naija: Isn't that part of their instincts? If not, what are ants instincts?
ask google
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 11:29am On Sep 29, 2012
Candybob: Animals think, the instinct is part of the thought process. Feeding, escaping predators, hunting (try catching a rat and u will understand the level of brain activity involved), selecting and attracting a mate, taking care the young, building a home (if u see wat some animals build), establishing order, politics (those chicken fights are not for nothing), guarding ur territory, quarreling, reconciling, working in a team, is not wat u do without the ability to reason. They have the ability for respect, discipline(the reason they can be tamed), emotions(love, fear, hate, suspicion, trust, empathy, loyalty, even curiousity! Their thought pattern varies but there is nothing basic about any.
Instincts is not thought process.It is natural belief, opinion or idea possessed by animals.They are inherent natural tendency toward some behaviors, they are mainly for survival,etc. That is the simple reason why metacognition has been misrepresented to be thinking in animals because most animals can exhibit it.

ANIMALS DON'T THINK - that's been a proven fact. Not what people are trying to insinuate here due to imagination and guess works. Even researchers who thought animals think have no proven evidences to support their claims.
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Nobody: 11:34am On Sep 29, 2012
Re: Do Animals Think?? by Emary(f): 1:45pm On Sep 29, 2012
I googled "Do animals think research" and got all these. The consensus is that animals think but they are still trying to determine the level of meta cognition. Some of them even think about thinking. Some believe that they think like autistic children who do not apply their senses in the "normal" way we do. Also, the Bible tells me in the story of Balaam (Numbers 22:21-35) that the donkey he was riding could think and sensed the presence of the angel before he did. God only opened her mouth. He also showed that He loves animals because he told Balaam that if she had not turned him away, He would have killed him but spared her(Vs. 32). I don't need anymore conviction than that.

http://www.livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/03.14/01-thinking.html
http://cqresearcherblog..com/2010/10/do-animals-think.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/18/hunting.animalwelfare
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/may/what-do-animals-think
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-what-is-your-dog-thinking
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text
Re: Do Animals Think?? by ciphoenix: 3:09pm On Sep 29, 2012
Emary: I googled "Do animals think research" and got all these. The consensus is that animals think but they are still trying to determine the level of meta cognition. Some of them even think about thinking. Some believe that they think like autistic children who do not apply their senses in the "normal" way we do. Also, the Bible tells me in the story of Balaam (Numbers 22:21-35) that the donkey he was riding could think and sensed the presence of the angel before he did. God only opened her mouth. He also showed that He loves animals because he told Balaam that if she had not turned him away, He would have killed him but spared her(Vs. 32). I don't need anymore conviction than that.

http://www.livescience.com/5712-animals-thinking-research-suggests.html
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/03.14/01-thinking.html
http://cqresearcherblog..com/2010/10/do-animals-think.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/dec/18/hunting.animalwelfare
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/may/what-do-animals-think
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/jul-aug/06-what-is-your-dog-thinking
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text
same thang i got. There was no definite assertion tho
Re: Do Animals Think?? by masterpiecer(m): 3:21pm On Sep 29, 2012
ciphoenix: same thang i got. There was no definite assertion tho

thief!, u stole the words outa my finger tips. LOL

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