@Syrup,

It appears I will be disagreeing with you for the first time on nairaland.

If I may ask, what do you think would have happened to that ministry if the crime commited happened in say, the U.K. For instance, Davidylan pointed at how Matthew Ashimolowo lost his minitry in the U.K. due to money. Why should the State have a higher level of integrity than the Church? is it not supposed to be the other way round?

The case of Judas and Jesus' ministry is different. Judas didn't steal money and put it into Jesus' ministry, rather, he stole money from Jesus' treasury to spend on himself. What do you think Jesus would have done if Judas stole N35 million naira and put it into Jesus' ministry? While Pastor Chris may not have received the money directly, do you think the branch didn't send a tithe of the money to the main branch? I think not.

Here what paul had to say with regards to himself and his ministry: 1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: I guess this scripture is not binding on Christ Embassy.

syrup:

#4. The case of stolen money should not overshadow the bigger picture of people being saved through the preaching of the Gospel.

There is nothing like the "big picture" when it comes to holiness. You are either holy or unholy, there is no middle wall where sin is acceptable as long as it does not overshadow the big picture of the salvation by the preaching of the gospel. The gospel by itself has power to transform, it has nothing to do with the vessel being used.
However the vessel can be a hindrance to the spiritual growth of the flock.

Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

syrup:

#5. Whatever our grievances in this mystery, let us have large enough hearts to forgive and move on; rather than strain at this issue as if the whole ministry committed to Pastor Chris rested on it.

Achan, 1 man out of millions, stole a garment from the people of Ai and the whole army of Isreal was defeated!

syrup:

As in #4 above, one out of the twelve apostles chosen by the Lord Jesus was a thief (John 12:6). Anyone would have had cause to accuse the ministry of Jesus because one of His apostles had such a sad reputation; but that did not stop the ministry of saving the lost in the name of Jesus Christ, did it??

Did Jesus not condemn Judas? As TayoD said, Judas did not steal to help Jesus ministry rather he stole from the purse to help his own personal "ministry". We all know where Judas ended up. That should be lesson enough.

syrup:

Wherefore, brethren, may we be gracious enough to let this matter rest; and rather rejoice that one case of suspected stolen money will NEVER diminish the preaching of the Gospel. By this, I am not in the least encouraging crime (high or low); but in a spirit of thankfulness, let us seek and think on those things which glorify the interest of God's Kingdom.

Stolen money will not diminish the preaching of the gospel. However the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. God's work will continue whether you are in sin or not. However, there is coming a day when ALL evil hidden will be revealed! Our gifts will not be able to save us in that day

@ TayoD

I am clear and simple here If this man has taken this money and he knows that it is stolen He should return it back. If he doesn't He is then a stumbling block to this young once.

If he does not repent and he dies in this state his final abode is hell fire pastor or No pastor. Most pastor are trooping to Hell that is one reason I have held myself from this position because you are not responsible for not yourself alone but all the flock.

The sin of a pastor in hell he will be beaten with many stripes. Look Should we now cover him and say it is Good? God Forbid!!!!

But He is already Condemned if this is true that he took the money and keeps it because he had made hell triumph over the church by taken the money.

I am angry that Satan have something to ridicul the Church Dont Get me Wrong

Now do we condemn him more? No

We pray Like Nehemiah that the Spirit truth convicts him and he repents and refunds the money.

This is covering sin with the blood of the lamb of God

@TayoD,

TayoD:

@Syrup,

It appears I will be disagreeing with you for the first time on nairaland.

All the same, I am most grateful for that and even more thankful for your brotherly love.

TayoD:

If I may ask, what do you think would have happened to that ministry if the crime commited happened in say, the U.K. For instance, Davidylan pointed at how Matthew Ashimolowo lost his minitry in the U.K. due to money. Why should the State have a higher level of integrity than the Church? is it not supposed to be the other way round?

Granted - the Church should be the light of the world with highest integrity. But sad as the case may be, there are other sadder instances of money issues in many quarters - within and outside the Church. At the end of the day, I don't think it is happier for anyone to lose their ministry regardless. The Kingdom of God suffers much damage in our hands if we pedantically call attention to these issues, than we do in rejoicing in the blessings God grants in spite of the turbulence.

Through a painful experience, I have learnt the true meaning of Rom 14:4 - "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." It is verses like this that show me my own insignificance in the sight of God, rather than focus on another's faults.

That is why I have rather started praying for Christian leaders, especially people like pastor Matthew Ashimolowo. In his repentance, may God uplift and increase him all the more, as well as raise many more mighty men who are sold out to the Lord.

TayoD:

The case of Judas and Jesus' ministry is different. Judas didn't steal money and put it into Jesus' ministry, rather, he stole money from Jesus' treasury to spend on himself. What do you think Jesus would have done if Judas stole N35 million naira and put it into Jesus' ministry? While Pastor Chris may not have received the money directly, do you think the branch didn't send a tithe of the money to the main branch? I think not.

At the end of the day, Judas was a thief; and it does not make much difference how he operated. The Lord knew "he stole money" (as you acknowledged), but the Lord never once asked him to return the money to His treasury. This is not to suggest that I'm in support of sharp practices. However, whoever was stealing money from who and where did not diminish the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Day arrives, all thieves will be judged by the Judge Himself.

TayoD:

Here what paul had to say with regards to himself and his ministry: 1 Thessalonians 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: I guess this scripture is not binding on Christ Embassy.

I do pray that a day will come when we will rejoice to see much more than we know about holiness - not only as we wish for in Loveworld; but much more than that, as applicable in our own lives.

We all agree stealing is wrong and should be discouraged at all levels. Yet, I confess that God has not made me a judge over anyone's ministry. I pray rather that we may all live in brotherly love even in the midst of our differences.

God bless you much.

Hi @davidylan,

davidylan:

There is nothing like the "big picture" when it comes to holiness. You are either holy or unholy, there is no middle wall where sin is acceptable as long as it does not overshadow the big picture of the salvation by the preaching of the gospel. The gospel by itself has power to transform, it has nothing to do with the vessel being used.
However the vessel can be a hindrance to the spiritual growth of the flock.

You have spoken well. Yet, I don't suppose that Pastor Chris makes sin an acceptable factor in his ministry.

davidylan:

Jeremiah 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

A good reference, no doubt. I only want to ask if the allegations highlighted thereto can be charged against pastor Chris? Here:

                  * scattered my flock

                  * driven them away

                  * not visited them.

Which of these is pastor Chris accused of?

davidylan:

Achan, 1 man out of millions, stole a garment from the people of Ai and the whole army of Isreal was defeated!

That's true. However, history has recorded more than 100 thieves in Christianity who have stolen anything from money to cars, garments, wives, and other property. In spite of this sad fact, the whole of Christianity has not been defeated!

davidylan:

Did Jesus not condemn Judas? As TayoD said, Judas did not steal to help Jesus ministry rather he stole from the purse to help his own personal "ministry". We all know where Judas ended up. That should be lesson enough.

I don't remember reading if Jesus condemned Judas for stealing money (neither did He condone it). "Condemn" is a strong word; and I would rather be persuaded that the Lord Jesus warned Judas instead of condemning him.

Judas ended up lost as a 'son of pedition' (John 17:12); but the reason thereto was much more a case of betraying the Son of God, than of how much money he stole ~~ "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born." (Mark 14:21).

davidylan:

Stolen money will not diminish the preaching of the gospel. However the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. God's work will continue whether you are in sin or not. However, there is coming a day when ALL evil hidden will be revealed! Our gifts will not be able to save us in that day

Amen. I agree without reservations.

Guys

let us leave cheap talks!! I cant believe you guys have time arguing and counter arguing over carnal matters!!! The LCM of life is this: if anything is of God, it will thrive if not it fades away like its likes. Be careful what you say or write, follow Christ, HE is the one that died for you.

Come off baby talks please!

@Geenona

if anything is of God, it will thrive if not it fades away like its likes

This is a Lie coming from the pit of Hell. In the days of Elijah The Prophet it was how many against him? 400!!!!!!
In the days when the Children of Isreal wanted to enter the land The Lord gave how many people entered? Only 2 Joshua and Caleb.


SUCCESS IN MINISTRY DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT GOD !!!!!!!!!!! 

@SYRUP

Rom 14:4 - "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

THis Negates The Cry of God To Ezekial In EZE: 33


We are Representative of God If we see sin and don't Condemn it We ourselves are Evil and their blood is on Our. However I am against the Moeckery of Christ.

To warn a Servant and to tell him of the Judgement of God is NOT DOING WHAT ROM 14:4 is saying.

The Devil also quotes the bible too and he knows that very verse and it is in the mouth of New Age "Christians"

They will say Things like "don't Judge", "If it is not of God it will fade away" "God is love and he wants us to Share his Love".

WHEN OUR LORD JESUS WENT TO CALVARY HOW MANY PEOPLE STOOD and were with him

Even Peter had Backslided.
Even Thomas did not believe it when Christ resurrected.

But There were people that Stood and even helped him carry the Cross.

THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE WETHER PASTOR OR NO PASTOR
BE YOU KUMUYI
BE YOU CHRIS
BE YOU HAGIN
BE YOU WHATEVER

The Wages of Sin is death by hellfire

@Backslider,

Again, as with others, I am grateful for your brotherly love and response.

Backslider:

@SYRUP

Rom 14:4 - "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

THis Negates The Cry of God To Ezekial In EZE: 33

If Rom. 14:4 negates the cry of God in Ezek. 33, then I am sorry to observe that you are inferring that the Bible contradicts itself - which it does not.

Backslider:

We are Representative of God If we see sin and don't Condemn it We ourselves are Evil and their blood is on Our. However I am against the Moeckery of Christ.

I think I've posted my say on that and indicated my condemnation of sin in clear terms:

syrup:

This is not to suggest that I'm in support of sharp practices. However, whoever was stealing money from who and where did not diminish the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. When the Day arrives, all thieves will be judged by the Judge Himself.
- - -
We all agree stealing is wrong and should be discouraged at all levels.

. . . and:

syrup:

#2. That Pastor Chris understood the money was stolen (if at all true) and yet did not make any move to urge a refund of same, is disturbing enough.

I don't know if those two examples say anything about my disavowing sin in any quarter and at any level? But just like you said about being against the mockery of Christ, in practical terms we Christians continue to mock Him if we can't move on from here, and slow down harping on the same issue - sometimes with relish!

Backslider:

To warn a Servant and to tell him of the Judgement of God is NOT DOING WHAT ROM 14:4 is saying.

Agreed. But in all honesty, how many posters on this thread have personally warned Pastor Chris directly? It seems we have rather used this Forum as a highway for criticism than loving appeal to reach out to people.

Backslider:

The Devil also quotes the bible too and he knows that very verse and it is in the mouth of New Age "Christians"

I'm grateful to know that as well, without assenting to New Age philosophy.

Backslider:

They will say Things like "don't Judge", "If it is not of God it will fade away" "God is love and he wants us to Share his Love".

True again. But I wonder if we should be more interested in the ministry of judging, criticizing and lampooning [JCL] simply because we don't want to be seen and heard as New Age 'Christians'.

Backslider:

WHEN OUR LORD JESUS WENT TO CALVARY HOW MANY PEOPLE STOOD and were with him

It doesn't have to be a matter of number - whether the whole world or just a few, I'm thankful to know that those who stood there loved Him dearly. More than, He loved us enough to redeem and bless us in spite of our mockery and rejecting Him.

Backslider:

Even Peter had Backslided.
Even Thomas did not believe it when Christ resurrected.

Painful, wasn't it? But both Peter and Thomas didn't lose their ministries - and we are thankful that the 'backslider' Peter was so used of God to have left us two very inspiring epistles in the NT.

Backslider:

But There were people that Stood and even helped him carry the Cross.

Amen.

Backslider:

THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE WETHER PASTOR OR NO PASTOR
BE YOU KUMUYI
BE YOU CHRIS
BE YOU HAGIN
BE YOU WHATEVER

Do we really wish these men dead - is that the overriding focus of our concern?

It's easy to magnify the faults of others and blast them in our emporium; but do we realize how often we ourselves are as deserving of death in our sin (whether by commission or ommission)?? 1 John 1:10.

Backslider:

The Wages of Sin is death by hellfire

I believe the Bible teaches judgement by hell-fire; but more than that, I believe that the most criticized servant of the Lord is accountable to HIM and not to me.

I detest sin in all its forms. May God help me to see MINE more than any one else's so that HE is glorified in my life. Not many may agree with my persuasions; but may God help me love everyone and reject what is not of HIM.

[center]Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults - Psalm 19:12.[/center]

@Syrup

In Ezekiel :33 The watchman sin was washed away already. If You are not Worthy there is no need of Being a watchman this is how true revival comes.

GOD HATES SINNERS AND SIN TRUE OR FALSE?

Answer Is God Hates Sinner and Sin

syrup:

At the end of the day, I don't think it is happier for anyone to lose their ministry regardless.

Syrup, I believe the idea that one has a ministry as a construct, franchise, or entity in it's own right is erroneous thinking.

NT Christianity is about salvation and serving. Children of God serving their Father. You are either a vessel meet for His use or you are not. If you are God can/may use you, if you are not, He won't.

For emphasis, God doesn't need any of us to get His will done. It's His work, we are fellow labourers, if we choose to be and He chooses us.

The error of "my ministry" is evident when people look to it and it's results to justify what the Bible abhors. You can't lose a ministry because you don't have one. What you lose or keep is your salvation.

^{This is not about anybody per se. Just a word for believers.}

God bless

You can't lose a ministry because you don't have one.

2Co 4:1 - Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.

2Co 5:18 - All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

2Co 6:3 - We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited.

Ga 2:8 - For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.

2Ti 4:5 - But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

2Ti 4:11 - Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry. [color=#990000]

TayoD:

2Co 4:1 - Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.

2Co 5:18 - All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

2Co 6:3 - We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited.

Ga 2:8 - For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.

2Ti 4:5 - But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

2Ti 4:11 - Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry. [color=#990000]

Oh my, how could I have overlooked all those references to "ministry" in the scriptures? Me bad.

Excellent work TayoD, you've certainly demonstrated that you can cut & paste. Now please articulate it as a concept. Something that you build around and construct into an entity in it's own right. That's seperate from the person and their walk with God & service to Him.

Let me give you a hint. The early believers understood and articulated ministry as service, an act. The religiously inclined in this age think it's a thing! I kind of doubt you'll see it though!

There was a time I quite admired you fervour. I now understand that for what it truly is. A virulent strain of unthinking religious zeal - which I must say is apparent in many proponents, both for and against Pastor Chris, (both of them) - Evidenced by your focusing on people, a refusal to appreciate questioning of your position, the fear of scrutinising it, or ability to fully articulate it.

Have a good day.

God bless

TV01:

Let me give you a hint. The early believers understood and articulated ministry as service, an act. The religiously inclined in this age think it's a thing! I kind of doubt you'll see it though!

You hit the nail on the head. While the early apostles saw the ministry as a sort of service to the believers and to those they shared the gospel to, unfortunately believers of today see the word"ministry" to represent something that is akin to a business empire.

Hello guys,

I've carefully followed the persuasions of subsequent rejoinders and here's what I've got to say:

@Backslider,

Backslider:

@Syrup

In Ezekiel :33 The watchman sin was washed away already. If You are not Worthy there is no need of Being a watchman this is how true revival comes.

GOD HATES SINNERS AND SIN TRUE OR FALSE?

Backslider:

Answer Is God Hates Sinner and Sin

First, I apologise that you wanted an immediate answer to your questions; but I was a lil busy with other commitments.

Now, here's what I'm persuaded about the love of God: God hates sin, but loves sinners.

As regards Ezek 33, I don't follow your meaning about being "worthy" to be a watchman. I think my position is clear enough: I am NOT condoning sin in any measure; and I've said so before time and again:

syrup:

We all agree stealing is wrong and should be discouraged at all levels.

syrup:

I think I've posted my say on that and indicated my condemnation of sin in clear terms

syrup:

I detest sin in all its forms. . .
may God help me love everyone and reject what is not of HIM.

I really don't know what it is that you want me to say beyond that. Even then, I'm thankful for your concern.

@TV01,

TV01:

Syrup, I believe the idea that one has a ministry as a construct, franchise, or entity in it's own right is erroneous thinking.

Thank you, TV01. But I don't think that I ever used the word 'ministry' in any of the sense you thought to have read in my post. As in TayoD's outline, it is clear that people have ministry committed to them from the Lord Jesus Himself. "And say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, that thou fulfil it" (Col. 4:17).

TV01:

The error of "my ministry" is evident when people look to it and it's results to justify what the Bible abhors. You can't lose a ministry because you don't have one. What you lose or keep is your salvation.

Okay, I trust that following TayoD's outline from Scripture, the concept of "my ministry" is not erroneous afterall: "For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles" (Gal. 2:8).

TV01:

Let me give you a hint. The early believers understood and articulated ministry as service, an act. The religiously inclined in this age think it's a thing! I kind of doubt you'll see it though!

Could you be more specific, please.

TV01:

There was a time I quite admired you fervour. I now understand that for what it truly is. A virulent strain of unthinking religious zeal - which I must say is apparent in many proponents, both for and against Pastor Chris, (both of them) - Evidenced by your focusing on people, a refusal to appreciate questioning of your position, the fear of scrutinising it, or ability to fully articulate it.

I hope for love's sake you have not been precisely self-descriptive. This is a very touchy issue; but whether for or against, I don't think it was ethical to have alleged the "virulent strain of unthinking religious zeal," no matter what your persuasion or position may be in the discussion.

Yet, for all that, could I propose to ask the discussants: what exactly is/are the accusation(s) that disqualifies(-y) Pastor Chris as a minister of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Bless all.

@Syrup

It is not Disqualification that we are talking about. Anyone that sins Is a Slave of Sin.

You may be eating from the master table. He is a (House master) because He is Bondage of Sin.

The Issue is Sin and nothing Else.

@Backslider,

Okay, appreciate your views. Even so, who is being accused of what?

syrup:

@TV01,

Thank you, TV01. But I don't think that I ever used the word 'ministry' in any of the sense you thought to have read in my post.

Okay Sis' Syrup, please tell, in what sense exactly did you mean it  

syrup:

Okay, I trust that following TayoD's outline from Scripture, the concept of "my ministry" is not erroneous afterall:

If you are referring to TayoD's grandiloquent (but low tariff) cutting and pasting exercise, then no!

syrup:

Could you be more specific, please.

Certanly, if you care to be more specific about what it is specifically you'd like me to be more specific about!

syrup:

I hope for love's sake you have not been precisely self-descriptive. This is a very touchy issue; but whether for or against, I don't think it was ethical to have alleged the "virulent strain of unthinking religious zeal," no matter what your persuasion or position may be in the discussion.

Touchy? to whom exactly? I say it like I see it, and on an issue by issue or point by point basis. If people take offence, apologies. But I'm not given to exaggerated expressions of piety.

syrup:

Yet, for all that, could I propose to ask the discussants: what exactly is/are the accusation(s) that disqualifies(-y) Pastor Chris as a minister of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ?

As ever I'm not overly concerned by any individual, just commenting on what I see as the scriptural imperative on the matter. But I'll say this, what disqualifies/qualifies, any "true believer" is exactly the same in all cases.

God bless

@TV01,

TV01:

Okay Sis' Syrup, please tell, in what sense exactly did you mean it

In just precisely the sense that I stated what I did without reference to your assumptions. If you disagree, please point out where I used the word ministry in any of the meanings you gave.

TV01:

If you are referring to TayoD's grandiloquent (but low tariff) cutting and pasting exercise, then no!

All the same, I find it quizzical that you take a heated position in discussing issues with people while failing to see the weakness in yours. This is what you stated earlier:

TV01:

The error of "my ministry" is evident when people look to it and it's results to justify what the Bible abhors. You can't lose a ministry because you don't have one. What you lose or keep is your salvation.

To that effect I referenced a verse to point out that you were greatly mistaken to have supposed that one doesn't have a ministry.

TV01:

Certanly, if you care to be more specific about what it is specifically you'd like me to be more specific about!

I have been very specific in my inputs and have not been ambiguous. You're not obliged to be as specific if you do not wish to do so.

TV01:

Touchy? to whom exactly? I say it like I see it, and on an issue by issue or point by point basis. If people take offence, apologies. But I'm not given to exaggerated expressions of piety.

Touchy issue in itself - not to you nor anyone else. Where you read exaggerated expressions of piety is taking things too far, TV01. If you disagree, you could as well keep it up.

TV01:

As ever I'm not overly concerned by any individual, just commenting on what I see as the scriptural imperative on the matter.

Is that not exactly what so many people have been doing - make comments as they see issues from the "scriptural imperative on the matter"? Was that not why we offered scripture on so many persuasions heretofore?

TV01:

But I'll say this, what disqualifies/qualifies, any "true believer" is exactly the same in all cases.

A blanket statement that hasn't said anything. In any case, out of love, I still seek to know this: Even so, who is being accused of what?

Hi Syrup,

I think cyber-space makes its easy to overlook the fact that there's a a huge community of religious/faith believers out there of which all of us are at best tiny dots.

I've said severally that I prefer not to discuss people/personalities, issues. I posted in response to a particular point, on which we seem to have differing takes. No problems. We can discuss that if we wish.

As far "Pastor Chris" or the matter of the "49million seed/tithe", not only do I consider us in very differnt places on many planes, but I have very little knowledge of him, his ministry or the particular incident, as such I have hitherto refrained from comment. Hence my blanket type statement.

If you would like me to speak specifically, I'll happily oblige, just outline the points or facts stating what requires clarification or comment and I'll respond.

God bless

@TV01,

As usual, I am not surprised by your ignoring that which is written and going about to establish your own truths.

Knowing how well you are quick to dismiss everything that does not meet up with your narrow expectations, I copied and pasted scriptures which have obviously suffered the same fate in your hands.

As I once told you, when you start going down such self-destructive paths, you are absolutely on your own.

TayoD:

As usual, I am not surprised by your ignoring that which is written and going about to establish your own truths.

Sorry 0! Learned one who knows what is written, yet clearly fails to understand it  !

TayoD:

Knowing how well you are quick to dismiss everything that does not meet up with your narrow expectations, I copied and pasted scriptures which have obviously suffered the same fate in your hands.

Quick to dismiss, Moi? Au contraire mon frere! I always go to great lengths to enunciate my position and to understand that of other discussants. Freely stating where my position is not yet fully formed or subject to change. You on the other hand have been nothing less than absolutely certain in all your offerings. Unfortunately you are usually "certainly wrong".

Funny how you pointedly refused my request that you expound in addition to C&P .  

TayoD:

As I once told you, when you start going down such self-destructive paths, you are absolutely on your own.

The faith path is one everone for the most part walks alone. I assure you you can walk better and further if you remove your head from up the Mogsbottom and clean off the religious poo-poo that is clogging up you sensory perception .

Here, extend your hand so I can pass you some virtual loo paper. Actually you'll probably require a shovel!

Salute!

TV01 stop being sarcastic bro.
Brethren I hate all this kind of argument amongst believers.
It will lead nowhere.

We all agree that stealing is sin,exthortion and deceit are evil too.
At the end of the day,where will you spend eternity

If the trumpet sounds right now,where will you be?
^{Still trying to win a silly argument?}

@Brethren,

Please, let me offer a peace-leaf to us all. I welcome the fact that we all differ in persuasions on this and many subjects in other threads; but even so, there should be no grounds for heated responses.

- - - - - - -

@TV01,

Many thanks for stating your point. Any lines in mine that might have unwittingly been misread by you is regretted. I had only wanted to offer a clear perspective on the present concern - and indeed I anticipated many would descend on me for taking the views I've maintained hitherto.

TV01:

As far "Pastor Chris" or the matter of the "49million seed/tithe", not only do I consider us in very differnt places on many planes, but I have very little knowledge of him, his ministry or the particular incident, as such I have hitherto refrained from comment. Hence my blanket type statement.

Okay, point noted. I'm not a member of, or an apologist for, Christ Embassy. Having tried to carefully follow the present issue, my conclusions were outlined initially (about 5 points); and then narrowed down to just one question: 'who is being accused of what?'

As regards addressing issues from Scripture, I believe we are all learning and to this end don't have problems with anyone posting verses without comments - as long as they speak to the point. This, I believe, was exactly what TayoD offered.

I am grateful for the grace expressed especially by TayoD in bearing out his position to have disagreed with me initially and say so with clear reasons. I do hope that we would all receive more grace to see beyond our differences and hold on to what binds us in the love of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

God bless you all.

Whoso hateth is brother has not the love of God.

We are Judged by every word or Idle Word that we speak.

The Kingdom of God suffereth Violence and Only the Violence take it

syrup:

I'm not a member of, or an apologist for, Christ Embassy. Having tried to carefully follow the present issue, my conclusions were outlined initially (about 5 points); and then narrowed down to just one question: 'who is being accused of what?'

I am a member of Christ embassy and i'm grateful for that, but if i wasn't, i'd still view this matter from your stand point.

I don't know when fellow christians would stop this "holier than thou" attitude. I wonder how many people could look deep into a matter with the mind of Christ that never condemned. can we just for a moment  put on Christ and see what he would have us see in times like this? We preach love to sinners and lack it within ourselves. This is more than a money issue we are dealing with here because this accusation keeps harping on.

News Flash: the church is born of God and we have overcome all criticism.

U know how we do it from back in the days to this time? We keep talking whether u like it or not. All we know is that the word never fails. This is our secret and our strength.

II Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.

8 We are hard-pressed on every side, yet not crushed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

9 persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

. . . .

16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,

18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

All these talks, Bible calls them light afflictions but we glory in what we see which is beyond this physical realm or sensory perception. what u could feel or any hear-say. We do not follow after a man but God in a man and not fogetting that salvation is personal.

We shouldn't be faster than God in our Judgement. For the fact that some scriptures could be quoted by anybody and time after time does not make it lose its potency. Let God be God and the judge. You don't know better and so can't improve his perfect Justice. His ways are just forever.

lysaa if indeed your pastor or church collected money from a member and it was proven the money was stolen,they ought to give it back immediately
It is a crime to be in possession of stolen property.
Just because God is not striking people down in immediate judgement ,does not make stealing excusable.

If that money had been stolen from you,you won't be quoting those verses,you'll be fighting tooth and nail to have it returned.
Let's call a spade a spade!!
If all members of your congregation feel this way about this money,the rest of Christiandom ought to lock their doors and keep all Christ embassites away since any stolen property that makes it to the church is a "testimony" to Gods providing power.
If Christ called us to an example,we ought to be that example indeed

HOLIER THAN THOU? ? ?

Holiness is what God Desires. Now see and Read The Bible
Luke 19 Verse

6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.

7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner.

8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.

9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

SO IF HE TOOK IT RETURN IT!!!!

GO AND WEEP AND SHOUT AT THE CHURCH MOURN THAT THIS EVIL IS DONE IN THE HOUSE OF GOD.

@babyosisi,

Thanks for calling a spade a spade. I don't know when being criticised for stealing becomes affliction for the sake of Christ.

@Backslider As christians, we were born Holy when we were born again and as such we must live Holy lives. However, this is not the same as living 'holier than thou' lives. I Suggest you guys(church police) go look for the pastor of one of the many Christ Embassy branches in Lagos who recieved money from the man; tell him what you have to say and hear his own side of the story so that you dont continue to heap condemnation on yourselves.