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A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him - Religion - Nairaland

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A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 5:30pm On Oct 30, 2012
Unfortunately, most religious people or theists will reject scientific knowledge with fear of losing their faith.



-Fear of evolution

-Fear of cosmological theories

-Fear of logic and non-christian philosophy.


smiley
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by onetrack(m): 9:01pm On Oct 30, 2012
-fear of having the logical fallacies pointed out about their religion

-fear of having the contradictions in their holy book pointed out
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 9:20pm On Oct 30, 2012
onetrack: -fear of having the logical fallacies pointed out about their religion

-fear of having the contradictions in their holy book pointed out


I weep for humanity when knowledge is now a thing to be hated or feared
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by onetrack(m): 9:54pm On Oct 30, 2012
Logicboy03:


I weep for humanity when knowledge is now a thing to be hated or feared

People fear and hate knowledge only when they are told that their existence depends on that state of mind, usually by someone who has an interest in controlling that knowledge.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 10:06pm On Oct 30, 2012
onetrack:

People fear and hate knowledge only when they are told that their existence depends on that state of mind, usually by someone who has an interest in controlling that knowledge.

It is quite sad. Pastors know the power of religoon and use it to control the minds of their flock members
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 10:17am On Nov 01, 2012
quite sad.....knowledge has become a thing to fear rather than explore
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 11:06am On Nov 01, 2012
It is indeed sad that many religious people are cowed by scientific knowledge.

Of course, that can only boil down to insecurity in their faith.

One who has the true faith should not be made insecure by scientific knowledge. He should rather pursue it.

True Science and True Faith will only lead to the same answers, though they take different routes. However, faith can transcends the scope of science.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 11:09am On Nov 01, 2012
italo: It is indeed sad that many religious people are cowed by scientific knowledge.

Of course, that can only boil down to insecurity in their faith.

One who has the true faith should not be made insecure by scientific knowledge. He should rather pursue it.

True Science and True Faith will only lead to the same answers, though they take different routes. However, faith can transcends the scope of science.

You don't really believe the bolded, do you? There is no way you can reconcile religion with science without going against the fundamentals of your beliefs.

Try religiously explaining fossils. (dinosaurs)
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 11:41am On Nov 01, 2012
advocate666:

You don't really believe the bolded, do you? There is no way you can reconcile religion with science without going against the fundamentals of your beliefs.

Try religiously explaining fossils. (dinosaurs)

There is nothing in my religion that teaches against fossils or anything that's true in science.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 12:22pm On Nov 01, 2012
italo:

There is nothing in my religion that teaches against fossils or anything that's true in science.

Yes there are. Science says the following assertions in your book are false:
-The world was created in 6 days.
-The moon is a light.
-The sun rises and falls and can be ordered to stand still.
-All species of animals in one boat for 40 days
-A talking donkey
-Staying alive inside a fish
-Walking on water
-Getting pregnant without sex
-Rising from the dead
-etc.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 1:12pm On Nov 01, 2012
advocate666:

Yes there are. Science says the following assertions in your book are false:
-The world was created in 6 days.
-The moon is a light.
-The sun rises and falls and can be ordered to stand still.
-All species of animals in one boat for 40 days
-A talking donkey
-Staying alive inside a fish
-Walking on water
-Getting pregnant without sex
-Rising from the dead
-etc.


cheesy

Let see the christian get out of this one.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 10:11am On Nov 02, 2012
advocate666:

Yes there are. Science says the following assertions in your book are false:
-The world was created in 6 days.
-The moon is a light.
-The sun rises and falls and can be ordered to stand still.
-All species of animals in one boat for 40 days
-A talking donkey
-Staying alive inside a fish
-Walking on water
-Getting pregnant without sex
-Rising from the dead
-etc.

Science can never say categorically that certains things are true or false. Scientists keep learning and understanding new things everyday. So what was "false" yesterday can be "true" tomorrow and vice-versa.

And most of these instances are well beyond the scope of science so they cannot be declared wrong, only unfathomable.

I thought Fabrice Muamba rose from the dead. It was doctors that said, not me.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 10:20am On Nov 02, 2012
italo:

Science can never say categorically that certains things are true or false. Scientists keep learning and understanding new things everyday. So what was "false" yesterday can be "true" tomorrow and vice-versa.

And most of these instances are well beyond the scope of science so they cannot be declared wrong, only unfathomable.

I thought Fabrice Muamba rose from the dead. It was doctors that said, not me.

I give you specifics but you make general statements. Some things are facts that cannot change no matter what. None of those is "beyond the scope of science". Science has already declared them wrong, unless you want us all to bow down and start worshipping Fabrice Muamba. Do you?
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 10:49am On Nov 02, 2012
advocate666:
Some things are facts that cannot change no matter what. None of those is "beyond the scope of science". Science has already declared them wrong, unless you want us all to bow down and start worshipping Fabrice Muamba. Do you?

*perplexed* What has worshipping Muamba got to to with anything?

Okay let's handle your specifics one by one.

When did Science say "rising from the dead" is false?

And did doctors (scientists) say Fabrice Muamba was "dead" or not?
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 12:00pm On Nov 02, 2012
italo:

*perplexed* What has worshipping Muamba got to to with anything?

Okay let's handle your specifics one by one.

When did Science say "rising from the dead" is false?

And did doctors (scientists) say Fabrice Muamba was "dead" or not?

Science doesn't need to tell you things before you can use your common sense. It is simple logic: If you rise from dead, then you were never dead. Scientifically or otherwise. But let's look at what death really means.
Here is the scientific definition of death: the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism.
I hope this sinks in; or do you want me to describe "permanent" for you? [from this definition, science thus says that rising from the dead is false]

To answer your second question,
NO! Doctors did not say that Fabrice Muamba was dead.

There was this single Boltom team doctor, Dr Tobin, that got carried away and made sensational declaration to journalist who by profession would amplify anything. But this time around, even the sensationalist journalists took such declaration with a pinch of salt because all of them put the statement in quotation marks in order to deny that any such nonsense emanated from them.
Fabrice Muamba suffered a cardiac arrest which is one of the signs of death but is not death. Please do not confuse both. Cardiac arrest is treatable. Death is not.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 12:57pm On Nov 02, 2012
advocate666:

Science doesn't need to tell you things before you can use your common sense. It is simple logic: If you rise from dead, then you were never dead. Scientifically or otherwise. But let's look at what death really means.
Here is the scientific definition of death: the permanent cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism.
I hope this sinks in; or do you want me to describe "permanent" for you? [from this definition, science thus says that rising from the dead is false]

From that definition of death, we can not know for sure if anybody is dead or not. Since we have to be present at the end of time before we can ascertain whether the "cessation of biological functions" was actually 'permanent' or not. If you declare someone dead today, how are you to know that he cannot be revived after a year using whatever means. E.g I'm sure you'd say the mummies of Egypt are dead, or are they not? What happens if somehow, by scientific or spiritual means, they are revived tomorrow, you will then tell me that they weren't dead in the first place.

That brings me to this: hardly anything is ever certain in science, it is always seeking to understand. Even that definition of death can change tomorrow. Faith know that God has power over life and death. Science will only continue to try to understand. Faith is beyond the scope of science. Science doesn't even have the tools to test faith.

advocate666: To answer your second question,
NO! Doctors did not say that Fabrice Muamba was dead.

There was this single Boltom team doctor, Dr Tobin, that got carried away and made sensational declaration to journalist who by profession would amplify anything. But this time around, even the sensationalist journalists took such declaration with a pinch of salt because all of them put the statement in quotation marks in order to deny that any such nonsense emanated from them.
Fabrice Muamba suffered a cardiac arrest which is one of the signs of death but is not death. Please do not confuse both. Cardiac arrest is treatable. Death is not.

Doctor Tobin said Fabrice died. The other doctors didn't refute that claim. You are the only one in the whole world that I've heard that said Dr Tobin was carried away.

Anyway, I'll take the doctor's word over yours.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 1:12pm On Nov 02, 2012
Why do christians lie and deceive?


Italo, do you think you are winning souls for yur religion when you deceptively say that doctors said that Muamba was dead.


Now, did the doctors mean to say ~"dead" in a medical/literal sense or metaphorical sense? Didnt the doctors mean that his heart had stopped beating, which translates to death but not in all instances?


Remember that no doctor will tell you that he can treat a clinically dead person
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 2:05pm On Nov 02, 2012
italo:

From that definition of death, we can not know for sure if anybody is dead or not. Since we have to be present at the end of time before we can ascertain whether the "cessation of biological functions" was actually 'permanent' or not.

If it is permanent, then it is permanent. If jesus's death was permanent, the he couldn't have risen. If he did rise, then it was not permanent and then not death according to that definition. Logic is really very hard for the godly.

italo:
If you declare someone dead today, how are you to know that he cannot be revived after a year using whatever means. E.g I'm sure you'd say the mummies of Egypt are dead, or are they not? What happens if somehow, by scientific or spiritual means, they are revived tomorrow, you will then tell me that they weren't dead in the first place.

That brings me to this: hardly anything is ever certain in science, it is always seeking to understand. Even that definition of death can change tomorrow. Faith know that God has power over life and death. Science will only continue to try to understand. Faith is beyond the scope of science. Science doesn't even have the tools to test faith.

I like your argument about mummies. It is even possible to bring some "to life" today via cloning of their cells. That, however is not rising from the dead. It simply is reproduction. That is how everyone of us was made.

If the definition of death changes tomorrow, then it wouldn't be death as we know it today and certainly will not be death as narrated in the bible. However this definition change is highly unlikely as it has been the sole definifition from time immemorial.

italo:
Doctor Tobin said Fabrice died. The other doctors didn't refute that claim. You are the only one in the whole world that I've heard that said Dr Tobin was carried away.

Anyway, I'll take the doctor's word over yours.

Here we go again with the appeal to authority argument against documented evidence. We know the method:argumentum ad verecundiam. Look it up.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by F00028: 2:55pm On Nov 02, 2012
italo : 3 ~ team logicboy :0
and i don't even like italo undecided

plus, oogicboy you are penalised for getting strangled with your,own rope.

1 Like

Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 2:57pm On Nov 02, 2012
F00028: italo : 3 ~ team logicboy :0
and i don't even like italo undecided

plus, oogicboy you are penalised for getting strangled with your,own rope.


le asskisser appears!


Cheerleading all the way!!
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 5:15pm On Nov 02, 2012
You say that "science has already declared 'rising from DEATH' false."

Then you say that "DEATH is a PERMANENT (lasting for eternity or till the end of time) cessation of all biological functions.

How could science have declared it false when science has to wait till the end of time to be sure of "death."

advocate666:
If it is permanent, then it is permanent. If jesus's death was permanent, the he couldn't have risen. If he did rise, then it was not permanent and then not death according to that definition. Logic is really very hard for the godly.

..."According to that definition." But not everybody thinks that death is always a permanent cessation of all biological functions.

advocate666: I like your argument about mummies. It is even possible to bring some "to life" today via cloning of their cells. That, however is not rising from the dead. It simply is reproduction. That is how everyone of us was made.

Cloning of cells is possible today even though it was unimaginable yesterday. Now do you know what other unimaginable thing today will be possible tomorrow? Possibly, the mummies could actually be brought back to life. Not just cloning their cells.

advocate666: If the definition of death changes tomorrow, then it wouldn't be death as we know it today and certainly will not be death as narrated in the bible. However this definition change is highly unlikely as it has been the sole definifition from time immemorial.

There is no proof that it has been the SOLE definition from time immemorial. In the Bible, Martha and many others didn't see death as you see it. She believed her brother was dead and she believed he could live again.

advocate666: Here we go again with the appeal to authority argument against documented evidence. We know the method:argumentum ad verecundiam. Look it up.

...And doctor Tobin had both! - authority and documented evidence.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 5:18pm On Nov 02, 2012
F00028:
and i don't even like italo undecided

What did I do to make you dislike me?

Perhaps it is something I can be sorry for...
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 6:54pm On Nov 02, 2012
italo: You say that "science has already declared 'rising from DEATH' false."

Then you say that "DEATH is a PERMANENT (lasting for eternity or till the end of time) cessation of all biological functions.

How could science have declared it false when science has to wait till the end of time to be sure of "death."



..."According to that definition." But not everybody thinks that death is always a permanent cessation of all biological functions.



Cloning of cells is possible today even though it was unimaginable yesterday. Now do you know what other unimaginable thing today will be possible tomorrow? Possibly, the mummies could actually be brought back to life. Not just cloning their cells.



There is no proof that it has been the SOLE definition from time immemorial. In the Bible, Martha and many others didn't see death as you see it. She believed her brother was dead and she believed he could live again.



...And doctor Tobin had both! - authority and documented evidence.

You just repeated yourself while exposing gross ignorance.
You seem to have a problem with the definition of the word, "permanent". When you understand that word, you'll understand death.

According to you,
a clinically dead person is dead.
a person in a coma is dead.
a person in a vegetative state is dead.
a body function shut off is death.
even a person holding his breath is dead.

And I am telling you that although some of these situation are not reversible with our technology today, they are not death.

No. The mummies can never be brought back to life because of many reasons which I won't go into now. But if you had studied ancient egypt mummification procedure, you should have known that the guts of the dead are removed before the drying process. This includes the brain which is liquefied first, then the stomach, liver, heart, kidneys, eyes, etc. The mummies are only dried flesh and bone. Such cannot be brought back to life.

You want to use the bible to justify an argument to me? This is what I mean by gross display of ignorance. I started by telling you that the bible is full of inaccuracies, but to justify these falsehoods, you use a disputed biblical falsehood of rising from the dead to justify rising from the dead. Try to think outside the bible. It's like telling everybody in the morning that the time is 10pm and showing them a broken watch to justify the wrong time.

Concerning your obsession with Dr. Tobin, I want to know: if another doctor confirms everything I said about death, would you agree with him?
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by F00028: 7:58pm On Nov 02, 2012
.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by F00028: 7:59pm On Nov 02, 2012
italo:

What did I do to make you dislike me?

Perhaps it is something I can be sorry for...


forget it man. whatever it was you've made up for it by running rings round team boylogic...
peace.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 9:16pm On Nov 02, 2012
F00028:

forget it man. whatever it was you've made up for it by running rings round team boylogic...
peace.


Fail
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by LordBabs(m): 11:58pm On Nov 02, 2012
Upending from the subject matter to a rather semanticity crisis is unadorable. Language/definitions can sometimes be technical and not fixed. Back to the status quo, I believe Logicboy hits the nail on the head with that anecdotal phrase. It's a wide-world fact that most theists habitually recoursed to argumentum ad baculum, at an eventual point of argument. It's really their style. But atheists and true knowledge-seekers ne'er bow to fanciful and illogical threats. It's our style, and it's the only key to knowing even the most abstruse things in life...OPENMINDEDNESS!
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by Nobody: 1:01am On Nov 03, 2012
Lord Babs: Upending from the subject matter to a rather semanticity crisis is unadorable. Language/definitions can sometimes be technical and not fixed. Back to the status quo, I believe Logicboy hits the nail on the head with that anecdotal phrase. It's a wide-world fact that most theists habitually recoursed to argumentum ad baculum, at an eventual point of argument. It's really their style. But atheists and true knowledge-seekers ne'er bow to fanciful and illogical threats. It's our style, and it's the only key to knowing even the most abstruse things in life...OPENMINDEDNESS!

Thank you!
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 3:23pm On Nov 04, 2012
advocate666:

You just repeated yourself while exposing gross ignorance.
You seem to have a problem with the definition of the word, "permanent". When you understand that word, you'll understand death.

It's understandable you have to say something like this to save face now that the heat is on.

advocate666: According to you,
a clinically dead person is dead.
a person in a coma is dead.
a person in a vegetative state is dead.
a body function shut off is death.
even a person holding his breath is dead.

And I am telling you that although some of these situation are not reversible with our technology today, they are not death.

Those are your assumptions, not my views.

advocate666: No. The mummies can never be brought back to life because of many reasons which I won't go into now. But if you had studied ancient egypt mummification procedure, you should have known that the guts of the dead are removed before the drying process. This includes the brain which is liquefied first, then the stomach, liver, heart, kidneys, eyes, etc. The mummies are only dried flesh and bone. Such cannot be brought back to life.

Well, perhaps they can be brought to life in future if all these organs are transplanted into them or by any other means that might not be known to us today. Who are you to say "never". And if you insist that they can "never" be brought to life, then we must wait till the end of time to find that out. Simple.

advocate666: You want to use the bible to justify an argument to me? This is what I mean by gross display of ignorance. I started by telling you that the bible is full of inaccuracies, but to justify these falsehoods, you use a disputed biblical falsehood of rising from the dead to justify rising from the dead. Try to think outside the bible. It's like telling everybody in the morning that the time is 10pm and showing them a broken watch to justify the wrong time.

Its you who is ignorant of the fact that you were the one who kept bringing the Bible into the discussion.

Firstly, this argument is to determine if science declares as false what religion says is true. So how can we then omit what religion says through the Bible from the discussion.

Secondly, you said your definition of death has been the only definition of death from time immemorial (a clear lie) so I showed you through the Bible that it has not been the definition for religious people including Martha.

Besides, who is displaying gross ignorance here. Didn't I also tell you that faith is beyond the scope of science? How then do you intend to use science to prove or disprove what is beyond its scope?

advocate666: Concerning your obsession with Dr. Tobin, I want to know: if another doctor confirms everything I said about death, would you agree with him?

Dr Tobin's view is not necessarily my view. However, its the view of someone I'd consider a scientist. Now if Dr Tobin's view is contrary to this your doctor's view, how then can you conclude that science declares rising from the dead as false. Who is the authority to go to in Order to know exactly what 'science' says.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 3:25pm On Nov 04, 2012
You see why I generalized? Look how much time we've spent on "rising from death" alone.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by advocate666: 5:25pm On Nov 04, 2012
Italo, your arguments may work for those brainwashed in your congregation but to all right thinking people, it is full of fallacies:
-we can't argue against religion because it is beyond the scope of ...
-you can't disprove my faith because the bible said such and such
-i can't debate you so i'll make stuff up as we go along.
-a doctor is an authority as long as i agree with him, if not, then science is a farce.
etc etc.

I can do the reverse argument and tell you that there is no authority thus in any religion as different sections of different thousands of religions have their own specific idea of god.

You see, we come round to your initial statement about true science and true faith: Science to you is only acceptable if it conforms to your faith.

What we are telling you is that science doesn't give a fck about your faith.
Re: A Wise Man Is Not Cowed By Knowledge But Uses It To Guide Him by italo: 9:34am On Nov 05, 2012
advocate666: Italo, your arguments may work for those brainwashed in your congregation but to all right thinking people, it is full of fallacies:

-we can't argue against religion because it is beyond the scope of ...

That's your assumption and distortion of what my argument is. My argument is: you can't use science to prove or disprove faith because faith transcends the scope of science. Science deals with the physical; faith goes way beyond it.

advocate666: -you can't disprove my faith because the bible said such and such

Not my argument. You are desperately building up arguments that are not mine and tearing down your arguments yourself. My point is: if you must make an attempt to disprove my faith (which is inseparable from what the Bible says), then we must at least mention what the Bible says. When you mentioned "rising from the dead", weren't you referencing what the Bible says? Why can't I do same?

advocate666: -i can't debate you so i'll make stuff up as we go along.

Another dubious effect of your desperation. What have i made up? If I couldn't debate you, I'd not debate you. Simple as that. However, what I am after is not to win any debate. What I'm after is TRUTH.

advocate666: -a doctor is an authority as long as i agree with him, if not, then science is a farce.
etc etc.

Yet another dubious effect of your desperation. If you will oppose me, at least oppose what is truly my position. Don't make up what you wish were my opinions and oppose them. I consider every doctor and scientist as an authority of some sort when it comes to the matter we are discussing. But, of course they cannot all agree. So to whom do we go as the final authority on what science says? Its just a question brother, not an ascertion. In fact it is you who tries to deride one doctor's view because it is contrary to yours when you said Dr Tobin was just "carried away."

advocate666: I can do the reverse argument and tell you that there is no authority thus in any religion as different sections of different thousands of religions have their own specific idea of god.

How can you do that when my first statement to you was:

italo:
There is nothing in MY religion that teaches against fossils or anything that's true in science.

Did you catch that or did you miss it? MY religion. MY religion!!!

...And my religion has an authority - The Magisterium.

advocate666: You see, we come round to your initial statement about true science and true faith: Science to you is only acceptable if it conforms to your faith.

Science is only acceptable if it is true and sincere.

advocate666: What we are telling you is that science doesn't give a fck about your faith.

That is NOT what you were first saying. At first you said science says certain things about my faith are false and I was telling you that science cannot say so because faith is beyond its scope. Now what you are saying seems to be a shift in position.

You might say that science doesn't care about my faith (I wonder what that means), but there are many scientists who are people of faith (including mine). Many of them have even been some of the great pioneers in many areas of science.

You tend to forget half the arguments you and I made initially... Or could it be that you didn't think our statements through before posting?

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