tevinsolt: If God does not exist then objective moral principles and obligations do not exist. Morality would only be a matter of individual or cultural opinion. But this would mean that torturing babies for fun, rape, & child abuse are not really objectively wrong, and are only a matter of opinion. How likely is it, though, that these atrocities are not really objectively wrong? Can you live with this conclusion? Our deepest intuitions inform us that these actions are horribly wrong.

This is really a summary of a moral argument for God’s existence. Formally it looks like this:


1.If God does not exist, objective moral principles & obligations do not exist
Objective moral principles & obligations do exist
Therefore, God exists
Consider premise
2. By objective we mean independent of opinion, just like 2 + 2 = 4 is objectively true even if everyone in the world disagreed. Despite people’s claims to being relativists, most people live as if they do believe in objective moral principles & obligations. It’s easy to say there are no objective moral principles & obligations, but it’s much more difficult to live as if there are none.

tevinsolt: The judgments we make when ourselves and others are unjustly treated, like in the above atrocities, reveal what we really believe about morality, regardless of what we say we believe. We believe that these atrocities are moral abominations, not just infringements of mere social conventions or personal dislikes. If objective moral principles & obligations do not exist where does our sense of duty and obligation come from?

This leads us to premise 1. If there is no God it is difficult to see how there could be any objective foundation, any universal standard for good and evil. How do you get ethics from only different arrangements of space, time, matter and energy? A purely materialistic universe would be morally indifferent. We would have only individual or cultural opinion, but no objectively binding moral obligations!

tevinsolt: If God does not exist then objective moral principles and obligations do not exist. Morality would only be a matter of individual or cultural opinion. But this would mean that torturing babies for fun, rape, & child abuse are not really objectively wrong, and are only a matter of opinion. How likely is it, though, that these atrocities are not really objectively wrong? Can you live with this conclusion? Our deepest intuitions inform us that these actions are horribly wrong.

This is really a summary of a moral argument for God’s existence. Formally it looks like this:


1.If God does not exist, objective moral principles & obligations do not exist
Objective moral principles & obligations do exist
Therefore, God exists
Consider premise
2. By objective we mean independent of opinion, just like 2 + 2 = 4 is objectively true even if everyone in the world disagreed. Despite people’s claims to being relativists, most people live as if they do believe in objective moral principles & obligations. It’s easy to say there are no objective moral principles & obligations, but it’s much more difficult to live as if there are none.

tevinsolt: Whaaa? Rephrase that ^^

tevinsolt: “We don't need a God to know right from wrong.”
Can each individual decide what’s right and wrong for themselves? Suppose you came to a traffic light and decided that red meant “Go” and green meant “Stop.” You would have made up your own standard, but would you be right?

tevinsolt:
Can society decide what’s right or wrong? Throughout history, societies have allowed ethnic cleansing, massacres, and wars. When you denounce these and other atrocities, you are also acknowledging that there is a standard higher than what a society decides.

It is impossible for fallible human beings to create an absolute standard. That’s why morality must come from a living and conscious source who is beyond the changing world of human imperfection. God, our creator, is that source. He holds us to his eternal standards of right and wrong.

wiegraf:

You claim god creates moral law, there is no god so that's not possible. I'm using 'god' here to represent yahweh or any other supernatural force. If someone claims he were mandated by god, his claims would be false (unless he could show you this god of course). Mind you he's not necessarily consciously lying, he could just be mistaken one way or the other. Ultimately all moral codes have been drafted by humans, even if unwittingly. You could present your evidence to show otherwise.


Anyways, god or no, you seem to be pushing what some call trandenscendal morality. Read this if you're ever free (e long tire, but maybe just the green bits should suffice)

www.nairaland.com/1090616/biological-basis-morality

thehomer:

Why on earth will you decide that?



How do you know what God's standards are? If you don't know what they are, how do you know that what you think counts as being moral is actually moral?

You can also try responding to actual posts rather than writing as if you're just lifting words from another book.

tevinsolt:

So from your world view, what is morlaity to you?
how do you think we got here??

wiegraf:

Morality is a human construct. Basically that long article's empirical view is hard to argue with. I'd personally like to have trandenscendal system built around natural evil (which simply means injurious to any life), but that's a complicated issue I couldn't explain now. This would be similar to what you propose except without god, just using natural laws and human common sense. Regardless, what I would like to be happening is very different from and less important than what is objectively happening.

Complications aside, morality is more or else a code of conducting business. Imo with religion involved we tend to corrupt it by accommodating needless bits from said religions.

I don't know how we got here, I'm just sure there were no gods or supernatural forces involved. Same way I know there were no gods involved in creating the internet, even if I don't fully understand how the entire framework exists. There was no intelligent designer either, unlike the internet. Breeders can create hairless cats after just a few centuries of breeding yet it takes god(s) 13 billion years and hundreds of billions of stars in hundreds of billions of galaxies to come up with humanity? And some religions portray all this as being built just for us? Anyways, there are many reasons to not believe, one being ignorance is not a valid reason to assume the existence of a god(s).

tevinsolt:

so let me get this straight, there's is no God or an intelligent creator when reality clearly shows, behind every thing there's is a mind behind it, but no you would rather believe in a miracle without a miracle worker....hmm sounds interesting.

what is the purpose of your existence/what do you live for? and what is the evidence that what you live for is reliable?

also who are you to decide how God chooses to create?......u claim morality is a human construct, are you sure? because if you are there's is no right or wrong, if you do not believe in a God, you have no value, you are just a spec of dust in the universe and the idea you are valuable than a grass is an illusion because you basically thing........i could go around claiming "i'm the greatest, i'm the greatest" but it doesn't make it true, because it is just an idea i formulated in my mind and it's an illusion

wiegraf:

This is rather terrible, built on assumption upon assumption. The bold is particularly silly, and I've already addressed it no less. From there on, false assumptions

tevinsolt:

if it's assumption then come out and say it for what it is....
on planet earth things comes from something prior and this is fact, calling you a spec dust is not assumption it's a logical conclusion on what you believe

wiegraf:

Like I already said, you don't know how something works does not equate to god(s) made it. Extend that miracles, you don't know does not equate to miracles, it equates to ignorance.

Compared to the vastness of the universe I'd day I'm probably even less relevant than a grain of sand is to a beach. But if you meant that as an insult, you don't want me insulting you.

tevinsolt: and also based on your view, there is no right or wrong, how can tiny things in the universe decide what is moral and what is not? and a sense of worth and value is an illusion, it's only in your mind because you are irrelevant in the whole universe.

tevinsolt:

I know it through the bible.....God is holy, good, and love.......

tevinsolt:
Jesus a sinless man claimed to be God in human flesh, he was either lying through his teeth or wait .... he might be who he actually claimed to be.....his life , death and resurrection supports his claim and affirms that the God written about in the Torah is the one true God.

tevinsolt:
The judgments we make when ourselves and others are unjustly treated, like in the above atrocities, reveal what we really believe about morality, regardless of what we say we believe. We believe that these atrocities are moral abominations, not just infringements of mere social conventions or personal dislikes. If objective moral principles & obligations do not exist where does our sense of duty and obligation come from?

This leads us to premise 1. If there is no God it is difficult to see how there could be any objective foundation, any universal standard for good and evil. How do you get ethics from only different arrangements of space, time, matter and energy? A purely materialistic universe would be morally indifferent. We would have only individual or cultural opinion, but no objectively binding moral obligations!

tevinsolt:


So from your world view, what is morlaity to you?
how do you think we got here??

tpia6:



You should know there would be no morality if there were no amorality.

And what is considered amoral in some places, is moral in others

Its a question of whose morality (or mores) are followed at any point in time, and what values ( oftentimes financial) are placed on whatever is considered moral or amoral.

tevinsolt:


Morality by definition is an idea that upholds the worth and dignity of humans. immorality is opposite, you can't have one be the other that's a contradiction. there's never a time the murder of someone is right or the rape of someone is right, in the absolute sense of it rape is wrong, regardless of anyone's opinion.

tevinsolt:
If God does not exist then objective moral principles and obligations do not exist. Morality would only be a matter of individual or cultural opinion. But this would mean that torturing babies for fun, rape, & child abuse are not really objectively wrong, and are only a matter of opinion.