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|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 8:19am On Nov 19, 2012|
New International Version (NIV)
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[b]?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
The above verses makes it explicitly clear Jesus is superior to angels.Heretics please repent before it is too late
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by pastormustwacc: 8:32am On Nov 19, 2012|
So you are saying that it is the voice of the arcangel that will wake up the dead? I thought it was Jesus that was supposed to wake up the dead?
Oya, chukwudi explain this mystery instead of calling people heretics. Have you not been following the thread?
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 8:34am On Nov 19, 2012|
What are the angels then? There are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.
Shee una don see the biblical description of angels.To call Jesus an angel is amongst the biggest insult yet to him.Not even the 4th century arians brought him so low.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 8:39am On Nov 19, 2012|
Stop fooling yourself.we already know the seventh day adventist stand on this issue.Stop pretending you are neutral here.
If you want to hear what the bible says.I have already posted them in my last two posts on this thread.Better pay heed.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 8:52am On Nov 19, 2012|
Micheal is not the only arch angel.He is only the arch angel in charge of battle.other arch angels mentioned in the canonised scriptures include gabriel and raphael.as clearly stated by the books of tobit and revelation,there are seven arch angels in all.Others mentioned in some on the non-canonical books include uriel,zarapael e.t.c.
13 But for twenty-one days the spirit prince* of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels,* came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.*
14 Now I am here to explain what will happen to your people in the future, for this vision concerns a time yet to come.”
Verse 13 makes it clear he is not the only arch angel.so when ever the term arch angel is mentioned it dosen't just refer to micheal.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 11:27am On Nov 19, 2012|
pastormustwacc: Is it the trumpet that will bring us back to life? If so, na who go blow the trumpet - that person has the power to bring the dead back to life? Someone should please unravel this mystery.
It is clear as it is stated there.
Shout, voice of an arch angel and the trumpet of God.
Those that hear His voice....when He shouts, those in the grave will hear his voice(ie from His shout) and come out.
The voice of an arch angel has what it does as the commander of God's army.
The trumpet of God(the 7 trumpets), has what it does. See it from Revelation and my post above.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 11:33am On Nov 19, 2012|
what is the meaning of "Son of man"?
Shout is not the same blowing a trumpet.
Sound of voice is not the same as sound of trumpet.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 11:43am On Nov 19, 2012|
chukwudi44: Heb 1:14
Hope you will also learn things that are insults to God our Father and stop them.
We are all learning here.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 12:41pm On Nov 19, 2012|
3 things are clear in the bible :
1. Jesus did not pre-exist as a being , but as a purpose and plan in the mind of GOD and for the redemption of the human race.
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." - Genesis 3:15
2. Jesus was begotten of the Father at a fixed time in history as a fully fledged MAN
3. Angel Michael is exactly what the bible says he is , an archangel
No amount of scripture twisting and manipulation of the bible can come to any other conclusion.
This is what happens when you base your teaching on an organisation instead of the Holy Spirit.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 12:47pm On Nov 19, 2012|
frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :
Stop spewing garbage.John 1:1. Already tells us he had always existed from the very begining.
If Jesus existed as a fully fledged man then who is his human father? Is the holy spirit human? Can a human father give birth to a dog? Can a dog give birth to a turtle?
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 1:11pm On Nov 19, 2012|
I do not adhere to the mysteries of the pagan Antichrist catholic church.
Jesus is not GOD but the Son of GOD and the Son of GOD had a beginning.
You may want to read John 1:14
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by true2god: 1:56pm On Nov 19, 2012|
chukwudi44: Hebrews 1:4-8The bible made it clear, Jesus christ is NOT angel Michael. Its unfortunate that some pple are comin up erroneous and unbiblical research like dis.
Let take two scenerios from the scriptures. First is the event that was recorded in Daniel 10:13. An angel was bringin an answer to a prayer but was delayed for 21days by 'the prince of persia' before angel michael came to the rescue.
The second scenario was recoreded in Jude verse 9 whereby the arch-angel michael was disputing/struglin with the devil for the body of moses. And finally the arch-angel michael told the devil, 'the lord rebuke u' b4 he was able to go with the body of moses.
The two analysis stated above highlited 5 things:
1) that angel michael was stronger than the 'prince of persia'
2) that angel michael struggles/disputed with the devil and had to invite the presence of the lord to have his way
3) that the prince of persia is different from the devil himself but both are evil spiritual forces workin against the work and pple of God.
4) that angel Michael cant be Jesus christ cos he cant be strong with 'the prince of persia' and disputed/struggled with the devil
5) that angel michael had to invite the presence of the lord (by sayin the lord rebuke u) before he could hav his way against the devil.
The book of Hebrews 1:6 said: let all the angels of God (arch-michael inclusive) worship him. The bible is clear on dis matter, even arch-angel michael worshopped him(Jesus, the son).
I think this is clear enof for any1 who is not ready to twist the scriptures in order to make a point.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 3:02pm On Nov 19, 2012|
How does John 1:14 explain your point?
Verse 15 even makes it clear Jesus existed before John the baptist.
New International Version (NIV)
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by akinemma1: 4:03pm On Nov 19, 2012|
the bible is very clear,the problem is that we are the ones confusing ourselves.my imple answer is that Jesus is not angel micheal.pertaining to daniel 12 vs 1
New International Version (NIV)
12 “At that time Michael, the great prince who
protects your people, will arise. There will be
a time of distress such as has not happened
from the beginning of nations until then. But at
that time your people—everyone whose name
is found written in the book—will be delivered.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the
earth will awake: some to everlasting life,
others to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the
brightness of the heavens, and those who lead
many to righteousness, like the stars for ever
if you study the book of mattew 24,you will discover that Jesus christ said that at his coming,he will come with his angels and he will send his angels to gather all the saints.this simply means angel michael will be among the angels that will appear with Jesus at his second coming.also if you study the bible very well,you will also discover that angel michael is the guardian angel of israel,so at Jesus coming angel michael will be the angel assigned to gather all the elects from israel that is just what daniel 12 vs 1 means.if you are still doubting,go to www.eternitynewsletter.blogspot.com and read the second revelation God showed to angelical zambrano about heaven and hell. you will discover their that angel micheal is different from Jesus as angelical saw Jesus christ, angel michael and angel gabriel.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 4:10pm On Nov 19, 2012|
But the problem with those who believe in the Trinity and Jesus as an archangel is that they believe in a pre-existence of Jesus as a being.
The first ADAM was a man and the last Adam was also a MAN but this last ADAM had no natural father , he derived his divinity direct from his father who is GOD.
If we simply accept that Jesus Christ was born of a WOMAN by the Power of the Spirit of GOD , and that he is GOD's plan for the salvation of all MEN who repent from their sins, it begins to fall into place quite nicely.
Jesus is not an angel and he is also not Yahweh.
He is the SON of GOD or the Messiah !!!!
So simple , yet so hard for many to grasp.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 5:51pm On Nov 19, 2012|
How about Him being the 1st born of creation and that all things where made through Him.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 7:16pm On Nov 19, 2012|
sorry I have been a little busy recently, however you can find a useful article HERE
I am not disagreeing for disagreement sake, all the evidence in scripture does not support this theory that Jesus is an angel. It's almost blasphemy !!
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 7:56pm On Nov 19, 2012|
I identified the "one having the likeness of the sons on men" in Da 10;16,18 as Gabriel. He is responsible for making Daniel understand the vision, Da 8:16, 9:21-22, 10:21.
This has not changed anything as regards the topic but we now know that the one in Da 10:21 is not Christ.
Hebrew 1:5 is still not supporting an angel being the begotten son of God.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 7:58pm On Nov 19, 2012|
Boomark: I identified the "one having the likeness of the sons on men" in Da 10;16,18 as Gabriel. He is responsible for making Daniel understand the vision, Da 8:16, 9:21-22, 10:21.
Sorry brother , I was not reading
Anyway we can always agree to disagree, what matters is that we believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the Living GOD.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Boomark(m): 9:20pm On Nov 19, 2012|
Can't open pdf file with my phone. I think you have referred me to that site before. When i asked you similar question on your thread about Christ pre-existence but could not get anything tangible from the site.
I remember i was 1st or 2nd to post on that thread.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 9:57pm On Nov 19, 2012|
chukwudi44: Heb 1:14
My brother in Christ, you are getting the whole thing wrong. I am not a 7th day adventist member nor a JW as some of you think.
I am only concern to believe what is written in the bible without confussing myself. I do not support anyone or whatever.
No one is perfect, we are all learning from each other, anyone here that believe he/she knows the bible too well is only decieving His/herself.
For your information, i have stated before in a thread that i worship with a Baptist church.
You may not have follow up that thread, but its less important. I personally have been asking myself several question on
this two fugures, although i haven't concluded yet, but scriptures made me believe they are similar, This means they can be ONE.
Now back to your comment in defining an angel. How will you now access this scriptures i will display below? It may be long but plz pardon me, and try to get to the end of it. Yes Angels serve God, this means they cannot accept others to serve/worship them abi? also You are aware that :
( Michael is discribed as the Captain of the Angels, Rev 12:7. He is one who stands in times of conflict for the children of Israel" Daniel 12:1). We know also that(Jesus was sent only to Israel: Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Now lets go and Look at the OT, in the book of Joshua, we can see that Joshua also saw Michael the Archangel:
Joshua 5:13-15,Joshua 6:2,Joshua 6:1
13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Joshua 6:1-2 1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.
What do you "nail down" wit this account? who did Joshua saw? "The captain of the Lord's host" , and we find that it is the Lord!
Joshua worshiped him, and He did not stop Joshua in his worship. In fact, th lord actually encouraged Joshua to worship Him! isn't this very significant ?
In Reve, when John tried to worship an angel, the angel tld him not to do that: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10) We are only to worship God!
Are we just reading that Joshua saw the Lord? Joshua is told tht this ground is holy and to take off his shoes.
He is in the presence of the Lord. We als see, that this Divine Being accepted the worship and the reverence that Joshua gave him.
He actually invited Joshua to worship and reverence him! You and i know that Angels will nt accept worship at all.
When John tried to give honor to an angel, the angel stoped him.
We also see that Jesus accepted worship whe He was on earth! He accepted the worship of the people around Him (Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Hebrews 1:6).
This Divine being is of no doubt is Jesus because Jesus himself said tht no one has ever seen God and that He is the one who has comunicated with man.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Joshua had talked to this Divine Being face to face.
And what is the down look on Michael all about? God's plans and ways of doing things is not same as ours. Do we have to say the bible isn't plain enough with this account? Who is the Captain of the Lord's host that Joshua worshiped here? Left for you to tell me.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:10pm On Nov 19, 2012|
You now disagree with those scriptures that proved Christ pre-existance.
Don't you think this is self interpretations?
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:14pm On Nov 19, 2012|
frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:40pm On Nov 19, 2012|
pastormustwacc: ^^I am thread OP, so i am not supposed to take sides. Immagine me being an interviewer. So now, we have 2 groups of people on this thread:
The Bible did not tell us that Jesus is Yahwah because He Himself told us that He was sent by Yahwah to earth.
The OT gave us certain events/activities or roles carried out by the Archangel Angel Michael, these roles were also displayed by Jesus.
1 Peter 1:10-11)10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
This chapter shows that, It was the Spirit of Christ that has always communicatin with the prophets of OT.
So, if the Spiri of Christ had inspired the prophets of the OT, then it makes very gud sense to say that Joshua talked to Jesus As i stated to bro @chukwudi44. After all, Jesus is the word of God! Christ has been the one who has communicated with man, this is why "No one has seen God at any time".(John 1:18,1 John 4:12,
Exodus 33:20, 1Timothy 6:15,16 Jesus said -"And the Father who sent me
has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice
nor seen his form."
(John 7:37 Consider these verses bros...
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 10:44pm On Nov 19, 2012|
There is nothing in Rev 12:7 that describes Micheal as captain of the angels .
And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.
And there is no where in the bible where is is written that Joshua met the angel micheal.The identity of the person Joshua met was never disclosed even though many has suggested it could have been Jesus.
I have said ot before that Micheal is not the only arch angel but rather there are seven of them.The term arch angel dosen't necessary refer to micheal.Gabriel,Raphael and uriel are also among the arch angels.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:46pm On Nov 19, 2012|
You do not know me and you are already tagging me as the bold
Scripture cannot contradict itself, it cannot say one thing here another thing there no no no!
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 10:49pm On Nov 19, 2012|
If Jesus is truely angel micheal then it should be wrong to worship him.So your worship angle really holds no water.
Heb 1:4-13 makes it absolutely clear that Jesus is superior to angels.If you want to abide by the biblical definition of angels,you will do well to stick to that.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 10:52pm On Nov 19, 2012|
Who is leading the good angels? and who is leading the bad angels?
What are you defending? or are you saying that the angels went fighting with Satan and His angels without a leader/captain?
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 11:00pm On Nov 19, 2012|
So because he is to lead the battle @ the time of the end make him the captain of angels? Micheal is clearly stated as not been the only arch angel.Where did you read that he is the captain of all angels?
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:12pm On Nov 19, 2012|
chukwudi44: If Jesus is truely angel micheal then it should be wrong to worship him.So your worship angle really holds no water.
Yes i have known this and that is why i have been wondering, Could it be that we are seeing the activities of Jesus before the NT when we look to Michael?
Is the angel of the lord, who is not an angel at all? could this angel-like being actualy be Jesus? could His name, in Heaven in the past, ve been Michael?
When you truelly fit scripture to scripture due to events, you will ask yourself questions if you care.
But not withstanding, God secret Is God secret, we don't question it.
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by Nobody: 11:16pm On Nov 19, 2012|
His name could have been nweke or bayo or whatever prior to his incarnation but the fact remains Jesus was far superior to angels and he is certainly not angel micheal who is clearly stated to have been an angel
|Re: Is Michael The Archangel Really Jesus? (revelation 12:7) by plappville(f): 11:20pm On Nov 19, 2012|
Whatever the version, it state below:
Did Joshau worshiped Him or not? Joshua 5:14
NIV: "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
NASB: He said, "No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"
ASV: And he said, Nay; but as prince of the host of Jehovah am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
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