plappville:

You should not be afraid to accept what the bible say, its not a matter of surporting a side.
I am not here to surport anyone but to accept the bible on what it says.



Very similar roles indeed, Doest the bible teaches two captains? I don't think so because, Satan lost His place because He wanted to be Equal.

pastormustwacc: Is it the trumpet that will bring us back to life? If so, na who go blow the trumpet - that person has the power to bring the dead back to life? Someone should please unravel this mystery.

chukwudi44: Heb 1:14

What are the angels then? There are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

Shee una don see the biblical description of angels.To call Jesus an angel is amongst the biggest insult yet to him.Not even the 4th century arians brought him so low.

frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :

1. Jesus did not pre-exist as a being , but as a purpose and plan in the mind of GOD and for the redemption of the human race.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." - Genesis 3:15

2. Jesus was begotten of the Father at a fixed time in history as a fully fledged MAN

3. Angel Michael is exactly what the bible says he is , an archangel

No amount of scripture twisting and manipulation of the bible can come to any other conclusion.

This is what happens when you base your teaching on an organisation instead of the Holy Spirit.

chukwudi44:

Stop spewing garbage.John 1:1. Already tells us he had always existed from the very begining.

If Jesus existed as a fully fledged man then who is his human father? Is the holy spirit human? Can a human father give birth to a dog? Can a dog give birth to a turtle?

chukwudi44: Hebrews 1:4-8

New International Version (NIV)

4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

The Son Superior to Angels

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”[a]?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”[b]?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”[c]

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

The above verses makes it explicitly clear Jesus is superior to angels.Heretics please repent before it is too late

Boomark: @frosbel

How about Him being the 1st born of creation and that all things where made through Him.

Boomark: I identified the "one having the likeness of the sons on men" in Da 10;16,18 as Gabriel. He is responsible for making Daniel understand the vision, Da 8:16, 9:21-22, 10:21.

This has not changed anything as regards the topic but we now know that the one in Da 10:21 is not Christ.

Hebrew 1:5 is still not supporting an angel being the begotten son of God.

frosbel:

sorry I have been a little busy recently, however you can find a useful article [url=http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/1-11.%20AGENT%20OF%20NEW%20CREATION.pdf]HERE[/url]

I am not disagreeing for disagreement sake, all the evidence in scripture does not support this theory that Jesus is an angel. It's almost blasphemy !!

chukwudi44: Heb 1:14

What are the angels then? There are spirits who serve God and are sent by him to help those who are to receive salvation.

Shee una don see the biblical description of angels.To call Jesus an angel is amongst the biggest insult yet to him.Not even the 4th century arians brought him so low.

( Michael is discribed as the Captain of the Angels, Rev 12:7. He is one who stands in times of conflict for the children of Israel" Daniel 12:1). We know also that(Jesus was sent only to Israel: Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

frosbel: ^^^^

I agree.

But the problem with those who believe in the Trinity and Jesus as an archangel is that they believe in a pre-existence of Jesus as a being.

2 things.

The first ADAM was a man and the last Adam was also a MAN but this last ADAM had no natural father , he derived his divinity direct from his father who is GOD.

If we simply accept that Jesus Christ was born of a WOMAN by the Power of the Spirit of GOD , and that he is GOD's plan for the salvation of all MEN who repent from their sins, it begins to fall into place quite nicely.

Jesus is not an angel and he is also not Yahweh.

He is the SON of GOD or the Messiah !!!!

So simple , yet so hard for many to grasp.

frosbel: 3 things are clear in the bible :

1. Jesus did not pre-exist as a being , but as a purpose and plan in the mind of GOD and for the redemption of the human race.

"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel." - Genesis 3:15

2. Jesus was begotten of the Father at a fixed time in history as a fully fledged MAN

3. Angel Michael is exactly what the bible says he is , an archangel

No amount of scripture twisting and manipulation of the bible can come to any other conclusion.

This is what happens when you base your teaching on an organisation instead of the Holy Spirit.

pastormustwacc: ^^I am thread OP, so i am not supposed to take sides. Immagine me being an interviewer. So now, we have 2 groups of people on this thread:
1. Those that believe that Jesus=Michael
2. Those that believe that Jesus <> Michael

Then on another level:
1. Those that believe that Jesus is the second person in the trinity
2. Those that believe that Jesus is not part of the trinity

*Heaves a sign of relief, lets proceed, i am happy with the contributors especially frosbel*

plappville:

My brother in Christ, you are getting the whole thing wrong. I am not a 7th day adventist member nor a JW as some of you think.
I am only concern to believe what is written in the bible without confussing myself. I do not support anyone or whatever.
No one is perfect, we are all learning from each other, anyone here that believe he/she knows the bible too well is only decieving His/herself.
For your information, i have stated before in a thread that i worship with a Baptist church.
You may not have follow up that thread, but its less important. I personally have been asking myself several question on
this two fugures, although i haven't concluded yet, but scriptures made me believe they are similar, This means they can be ONE.

Now back to your comment in defining an angel. How will you now access this scriptures i will display below? It may be long but plz pardon me, and try to get to the end of it. Yes Angels serve God, this means they cannot accept others to serve/worship them abi? also You are aware that :
( Michael is discribed as the Captain of the Angels, Rev 12:7. He is one who stands in times of conflict for the children of Israel" Daniel 12:1). We know also that(Jesus was sent only to Israel: Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Now lets go and Look at the OT, in the book of Joshua, we can see that Joshua also saw Michael the Archangel:

Joshua 5:13-15,Joshua 6:2,Joshua 6:1

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Joshua 6:1-2 1 Now Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in.
2 And the LORD said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.

What do you "nail down" wit this account? who did Joshua saw? "The captain of the Lord's host" , and we find that it is the Lord!
Joshua worshiped him, and He did not stop Joshua in his worship. In fact, th lord actually encouraged Joshua to worship Him! isn't this very significant ?

In Reve, when John tried to worship an angel, the angel tld him not to do that: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:10) We are only to worship God!

Are we just reading that Joshua saw the Lord? Joshua is told tht this ground is holy and to take off his shoes.
He is in the presence of the Lord. We als see, that this Divine Being accepted the worship and the reverence that Joshua gave him.
He actually invited Joshua to worship and reverence him! You and i know that Angels will nt accept worship at all.
When John tried to give honor to an angel, the angel stoped him.

We also see that Jesus accepted worship whe He was on earth! He accepted the worship of the people around Him (Matthew 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Hebrews 1:6).

This Divine being is of no doubt is Jesus because Jesus himself said tht no one has ever seen God and that He is the one who has comunicated with man.

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Joshua had talked to this Divine Being face to face.

And what is the down look on Michael all about? God's plans and ways of doing things is not same as ours. Do we have to say the bible isn't plain enough with this account? Who is the Captain of the Lord's host that Joshua worshiped here? Left for you to tell me.

Peace.

chukwudi44:

Stop fooling yourself.we already know the seventh day adventist stand on this issue.Stop pretending you are neutral here.

If you want to hear what the bible says.I have already posted them in my last two posts on this thread.Better pay heed.

chukwudi44:

There is nothing in Rev 12:7 that describes Micheal as captain of the angels .

Rev 12:7-8

 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.

And there is no where in the bible where is is written that Joshua met the angel micheal.The identity of the person Joshua met was never disclosed even though many has suggested it could have been Jesus.

I have said ot before that Micheal is not the only arch angel but rather there are seven of them.The term arch angel dosen't necessary refer to micheal.Gabriel,Raphael and uriel are also among the arch angels.

plappville:

Who is leading the good angels? and who is leading the bad angels?
Michael leads
Satan leads
What are you defending? or are you saying that the angels went fighting with Satan and His angels without a leader/captain?

chukwudi44: If Jesus is truely angel micheal then it should be wrong to worship him.So your worship angle really holds no water.

Heb 1:4-13 makes it absolutely clear that Jesus is superior to angels.If you want to abide by the biblical definition of angels,you will do well to stick to that.

plappville:

Yes i have known this and that is why i have been wondering, Could it be that we are seeing the activities of Jesus before the NT when we look to Michael?
Is the angel of the lord, who is not an angel at all? could this angel-like being actualy be Jesus? could His name, in Heaven in the past, ve been Michael?

When you truelly fit scripture to scripture due to events, you will ask yourself questions if you care.
But not withstanding, God secret Is God secret, we don't question it.

chukwudi44:

So because he is to lead the battle @ the time of the end make him the captain of angels? Micheal is clearly stated as not been the only arch angel.Where did you read that he is the captain of all angels?