Jesus in his own lifetime said he was going to come back IN THE LIFETIME of his listeners. There at least 4 passages in the bible were Jesus is quoted as emphasising that he was going to come back while his listeners were still alive. Here they are;

Matthew 16: 24 -28;

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.



Mark 8: 34 - 38

34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in THIS adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.



Luke 9: 23 - 26

23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.
27 But I tell you of a truth, t[b]here be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God[/b].

--
--

etc

In fact, I will let Netwriter explain (
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD43LYjf4sY).

SO WHAT ARE WE DOING WAITING FOR HIM WHEN HE MAY HAVE BEEN AND GONE?

therationa:

SO WHAT ARE WE DOING WAITING FOR HIM WHEN HE HAS BEEN AND GONE?

we? When did you start believing the bible?

Leave us to keep waiting.

There are questions waiting for u on the other threads you put up claiming to be seeking answers . . . answer them first before we tell you why we (not you) are still waiting.

4Him:

When did you start believing the bible?

This is the curious thing about therationa. He has a high capacity for self deception and contradiction.

@therationa
Since you have doubts about the veracity of the bible, does it not make sense for you to stop making references to biblical passages

I used "WE" to refer to our generation. That should not detract from the main thrust of my question, should it. Why are there passages suggesting that Jesus expected his return in the lifetime of his listeners?

therationa:

I used "WE" to refer to our generation. That should not detract from the main thrust of my question, should it. Why are there passages suggesting that Jesus expected his return in the lifetime of his listeners?

not only does it detract from it, it makes your alleged "question" nothing but a sham.

You claim (without proof) that God does not exist.
You claim that Jesus Christ is a myth.
you claim that the bible is merely a book of fairy tales . . .

Short of labeling you a hypocrite, why are you still referencing that bible?

Funny how you are in the habit of missing the centrality of my questions. It matters NOT whether I believe in the bible to discuss it.

I AM SURE YOU DO REFUTE THE KORAN WITHOUT BELIEVING IN IT.

I am simply looking for the facts, internal consistency and how they correspond with the evidence before us.

@therationa,

therationa:

Jesus in his own lifetime said he was going to come back IN THE LIFETIME of his listeners. There at least 4 passages in the bible were Jesus is quoted as emphasising that he was going to come back while his listeners were still alive.

As in the other thread where we (you and I) had a good e-conversation about interpreting the Bible, I think this is another example of the same thing you've just posted. Again, you have already reached your conclusion unfairly even before examining the texts or inviting a discussion - especially when you've torn those texts out of their contexts!

In any case, the same inference and queries have been made on the same issue once-too-many times on this Forum (see, for example: Are These Really Jesus' Sayings And Were They Fulfilled?).

Although not so many answers have been proffered on the Forum thereto, understandably so because it seems that those who are in the habit of making such inferences have been too busy plagiarizing the thoughts of other arguers and not being able to stand on their own to discuss the postulations they make. Of course, I've waited for the poster of the link above to return from his self-exile and take my challenge to not scoot off from his assumptions, but be willing to stay his ground and be man enough to discuss his plagiarized articles.

I would offer you the same challenge here: do you care to enter a discussion  to defend your own assumptions already reached before considering the views of others?

therationa:

Funny how you are in the habit of missing the centrality of my questions.

funny how you are in the habit of dribbling urself.

therationa:

It matters NOT whether I believe in the bible to discuss it.

It matters a great deal. You cant claim to be sincerely discussing something you believe is nothing but a fairy tale.

therationa:

I AM SURE YOU DO REFUTE THE KORAN WITHOUT BELIEVING IN IT.

you wont catch me putting up threads on the quran every 5 mins.

therationa:

I am simply looking for the facts, internal consistency and how they correspond with the evidence before us.

Each time "facts" were pointed out to you, you either ignored them, deliberately misinterpreted them or ran away to put u another thread.
Show us some consistency urself. you cant be asking us for evidence and then providing us with "speculation".

Stimulus,

Thanks for your sensible response. Yes, again, I plead quilty for "jumping to conclusions" like you say. Unfortunately, the standard bible not contain the subtext of its passages. If this is what is required to really understand these complicates passages, then I do not have that knowledge. Enlighten me if you may.

4Him:

Each time "facts" were pointed out to you, you either ignored them, deliberately misinterpreted them or ran away to put u another thread.

@therationa,

The above quote from 4Him is the same thing I'd highlighted several times in the past in your posts: your 'consistency' really wobbles; and it would be a great help to you personally if you take care to demonstrate some more serious coherence in your assumptions.

Nonetheless, I'd like to add a few notes in response to your rejoinder:

therationa:

Funny how you are in the habit of missing the centrality of my questions. It matters NOT whether I believe in the bible to discuss it.

True, it may not matter that much whether or not you believe in the Bible (or any book at all for that matter) before entering a serious dicussion of that Book. However, it matters all the more for you to be consistent when making or reaching any conclusions based on your assumptions in discussing matters in that or any Book.

therationa:

I AM SURE YOU DO REFUTE THE KORAN WITHOUT BELIEVING IN IT.

Valid argument, so I give that to you. However, if that was meant as a trip-up line of defence, it has failed to do its job effectively. At least, those who argue the Koran while refuting its message have often times demonstrated their consistent position in their several arguments. You will be hard pressed to find such discussants plagiarizing other people's assumptions wholesale and then scooting off in their inability to defend their own premise.

therationa:

I am simply looking for the facts, internal consistency and how they correspond with the evidence before us.

Ah - there! The very thing that I'd be looking for when you do take my offer to enter into a discussion on this same subject. Care to do so?


- - - -
edited.

therationa:

Unfortunately, the standard bible not contain the subtext of its passages.

Be that as it may, it should not be that difficult to answer to your queries. Honestly.

therationa:

If this is what is required to really understand these complicates passages, then I do not have that knowledge.

I can well sympathize with you on that; but I'd not be so condescending to take your presumptions on board - otherwise, how then would I be able to offer anything of interest at all to you?

therationa:

Enlighten me if you may.

Okay then, would I take that as an invitation to share something for your consideration?

therationa:
Thanks for your sensible response. Yes, again, I plead quilty for "jumping to conclusions" like you say. Unfortunately, the standard bible not contain the subtext of its passages. If this is what is required to really understand these complicates passages, then I do not have that knowledge. Enlighten me if you may.

@therationa

It is good that you admit your 'guilt'. It is a good starting point.

You need to be an EXPERT in koine Greek, ancient Hebrew, Aramaic and a host of other biblical languages before you can even start reaching the kind of wild and self-contradicting assertions you have generated on this forum.

Read the english bible (i'm sure you do not know greek, hebrew or aramaic), meditate on it. If you have questions, ask your pastor(s), check concordats, check bible commentaries and a host of other documents that can be of immense help.

The bible is not a trivial book. It is not a simple as it seems to you.

Can you pull me up specifically where I have been lacking in consistency? I would like to know.

(popping out for 30 minutes, will be back soon)

therationa:

(popping out for 30 minutes, will be back soon)

Okay then, gee us a shout when you do come back. Enjoy while thou be gone briefly!

Ok, I seek enlightenment from the bible experts. Go on then. What do these passages mean?

@therationa,

therationa:

Ok, I seek enlightenment from the bible experts. Go on then. What do these passages mean?

Right then. I'd be taking the first example of verses from the link I offered earlier - Matthew 10:23 - just as illustrative of the fact that not many people have a good grasped of these verses, and have thereby arrived at their unbalanced and accusative views.

Of course, by obliging to discuss them, it doesn't mean that I answer to your flattering appellation of 'Bible experts'; I'd rather be content in sharing my thoughts on this subject for your consideration, while asking that you stay on course to defend your own assumptions that we have missed the Lord's 2nd Coming. Would we find you obliging that request as well?

well I will retract my assertion if you can show me that the literal interpretation is not the correct one.

I have given my thoughts on this issue before:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101571.0.html#msg1812102

therationa:

well I will retract my assertion if you can show me that the literal interpretation is not the correct one.

Okay; but then what do you mean by "the literal interpretation"?


- - - - -

@justcool,

justcool:

I have given my thoughts on this issue before:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-101571.0.html#msg1812102

many thanks - a confirmation of what I stated earlier: this subject has been recycled one-too-many times already!

This is what I mean;

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Does the above verse mean anything other than that Jesus would return before his listeners were dead?.

The literal interpretation means He would return before the all died out. Is there any other non-literal interpretation?

@therationa,

therationa:

The literal interpretation means He would return before the all died out. Is there any other non-literal interpretation?

I'm not trying to be tedious to you; but it would help us in this dicussion that I do not misread you at any point. And having clarified your point, I'm willing to share what I pomised earlier.

And why are there so many instances implying the same understanding (return in the generation) with little explanation to caution about a non-literal meaning (I can only thing of the "one day meaning a thousand/thousand meaning one day" as a commentary to the expectation of Jesus's followers)

Stimulus,

Waiting for your response with bated breath.

therationa:

And why are there so many instances implying the same understanding (return in the generation) with little explanation to caution about a non-literal meaning (I can only thing of the "one day meaning a thousand/thousand meaning one day" as a commentary to the expectation of Jesus's followers)

Not to worry, I'm trying to re-visit that link so I don't quote the OP incorrectly. However, I anticipated the above quiz from you; which is hardly what I'd be considering offering. In other words, I'm not seeking a "literal interpretation" for the sake of arriving at ideas which fail to look at the collective whole.

The collective whole is what I'm proposing; for to snatch a few verses here and there is the reason why many people have problems understanding simple issues.

@therationa,

therationa:

Stimulus,

Waiting for your response with bated breath.

Good then.

Now, let's start off by keeping your assumptions in clear view, which is: today's Christians "have already missed Jesus' 2nd Coming". I'm making reference to that premise, because I hope that you'd not whip up any excuses for something else where you find it tedious to hold your presumptions any longer.

As stated earlier, I'd be using the first example in that link to address this issue of the 2nd Coming. Of course, of the verses you quoted (Matthew 16:24-28, Mark 8:34-38 and Luke 9:23-26), the first one in your quote (Matt. 16:28) appears as item #2 in that link.

However, I'd be using the Matthew 10:23 verse (item #1 in that thread) to discuss the subject for the reason that it more or less answers to the same inference you've made for all the verses you quoted in yours; and this would help the poster in the other thread realize that plagiarizing the fancies of other arguers does not make an intelligent person out of him.

So here:

Matthew 10:23 - When giving instructions to his apostles as to just how they are to go about spreading his message Jesus says,." . . . for truly I say unto you, you shall not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

The thought that follows that quote is: "They have since perished but son of man hasnt come".

Reading such texts out of their contexts, many have arrived at their pretexts for the idea that either:

> (a) those were not Jesus' own words; or

> (b) if they were, they have proven to be unfulfilled and therefore
false prophecies; or yet that:

> (c) they should be given a "literal interpretation" - which should
therefore mean that the 2nd Coming has already occured in the past!

That your premise answers to the third assumption (c), I'd be focusing mainly on that here.

A basic question needs to be asked:

In what context was He to "come" in that passage?

Many people obviously miss the whole gist of that text because they you snatch it completely out of its context and therefore assumed that the prophecy failed!

Please understand that Jesus was very succinct, specific and clear in the prophetic message of His second coming. He was not vague about that subject, and the relevant texts where He enunciated His second coming include the following:

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with
power and great glory.

When you seek the [b]context of the "coming" in the verse above, you see that it points to the epoch of the Day when He returns to earth and the Judgement of humanity is unveiled (compare with Mark 13). That is why we read in clear terms of ALL the tribes of the EARTH" than merely the cities of Israel. Infact, the previous verse (Matthew 24:29) tells us that this "coming" in this context is set at the time described as "immediately after the tribulation of those days" - days when the heavenly powers shall be shaken, and the celestial bodies (sun and moon) will not yield their light!

Further back in the early verses of the chapter, the disciples had asked him some questions, which point out directly that His answers were towards the epoch of His "second coming". They asked in Matt. 24:3 --

'And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came
unto him privately, saying, Tell us, -
~ when shall these things be?
~ and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
~ and of the end of the world?

His answers addressed His coming differently from that which He spoke about in Matthew 10; and the context in Matthew 24:29-30 as above simply demonstrate the point contextually.

. . . continuing:

@therationa,

However, He indeed spoke of His "coming" in various other ways and contexts different from the second coming. As regards the text quoted (Matthew 10:23), for instance, He was not speaking in terms of the apocalyptic epoch of the Judgement Day that affect ALL the tribes of the EARTH and the heavenly bodies being shaken! Please read the preceding verses of that chapter again to see the context, and let me delineate them neatly for you:

(a) In Matthew 10, He was speaking in terms of Jewish persecution
of the apostles; whereas, in Matthew 24, He was speaking in terms
of ALL the tribes of the EARTH!

(b) In Matthew 10, their commission was only to the lost sheep of
the house of Israel (vs 5 & 6 - "Go not into the way of the Gentiles
. . . go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."; whereas,
in Matthew 24, the Gospel was to be preached to EVERY NATION
(vs. 14: "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in ALL
the world for a witness unto ALL nations; and then shall
the end come".

Having outlined the difference between these two distinct "comings", let me give you an example of a prophecy declaring one type of His "coming" as different from the second coming.

In Matthew 23:39, Jesus says: "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord." This was a reference to the prophecy in Malachi 3:1, where the Messiah is called "the Messenger of the covenant":

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare
the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall
suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant,
whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

Please notice that Malachi was one of the OT prophets (so that the OP of the other thread does not come up with his rubbish of the NT is 'corrupt'). Long before the birth of Christ, this OT prophet had declared that:

The Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His Temple!

"The Lord" Himself will come, declared Malachi (and several other prophets had declared the same). A few other prophets who declared the same "coming" in this context include the following (note also what exactly they called the Messiah):


(1) Prophet Isaiah (Isaiah 62:11)

'Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world,
Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, THY SALVATION cometh;
behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him'

- - - - - - - -

(2) Prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 9:9)

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem:
behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE:
he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass,
and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

Since these are prophetic declarations, the identity of the Messiah is given in various contexts so that only those whose hearts have been illumined by the Holy Spirit will be able to recognize Him. That is why Isaiah in ch. 62:11 refers to Him as "Thy Salvation" - the Messiah is the "SALVATION" of His people (as the Psalmist also called Him "my Salvation" in Psalm 27:1 ['the LORD is my Light and my Salavation]; and Simeon in Luke 2:30 actually calls Him by the name "the Salvation".

. . . continuing:

@therationa,

Let's go back to the prophecy in Malachi 3:1 - "The Lord whom ye seek shall suddenly come to His Temple!"

When would this have happened? We turn to Matthew 21.

There at His entry into Jerusalem, Jesus goes to the Temple indeed - but what He found there was an appalling condition that set Him to drive them all out! Sadly, the leaders of the people had no regard for the prophecies God had given. . . and they had no clue when Malachi's prophecy was fulfilled upon them! Yes indeed. . . "the Lord" Himself whom Malachi called 'the Messenger of the covenant' had suddenly arrived at the Temple when they were least prepapred for that august visit!

If the prophecy in Malachi made no sense to them, then all the other prophecies would have made no sense to them either. And that was why they had been so pre-occupied with such commercial activities in the Temple and thought that since Malachi's prophecy said He would come "suddenly" and it was not fulfilled around the time of Malachi, then the prophecy was long past. . . or God had probably changed His mind!

The effect of God's prophecy is that it does not matter how long it assumes in the eyes of man! That is why He warns us to be very careful to wait for the fulfilling of His word:

'For the vision is yet for an appointed time,
but at the end it shall speak, and not lie:
though it tarry, wait for it;
because it will surely come, it will not tarry.'
~ [Habakkuk 2:3]

God does not measure timing in His ways as we are often prone to measure timing! It may seem as if His prophecies are a long time in being fulfilled; but he says: at the END, it SHALL speak. . . it will SURELY come!!

- - - - -

All this simply go to point out that the "coming" in Malachi 3:1 was verily fulfilled in Matthew 21. However, in Matthew 23, due to their hypocrisy, Jesus testifies to them:

Matthew 23:38-39
'Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.'

What has happened here? How is it that when the prophecy in Malachi was fulfilled, the Jews did not even recognize it until He had to leave their house 'desolate' unto them?

When we compare the incidence with Luke 19, we understand why:

Luke 19:41-45
'And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day,
the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from
thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies
shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep
thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and
thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone
upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold
therein. . .

They did not know the time of their visitation; nor did they know about their day that there were things which God had prepared to belong to their peace! Yet, many prophets had announced this very blessing in prophetic language many times before --

Zechariah 2:10
'Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion:
for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee,
saith the LORD'


Isaiah 12:6
Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion:
for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.


Zephaniah 3:15 & 17
The LORD hath taken away thy judgments,
he hath cast out thine enemy:
the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee:
thou shalt not see evil any more!
The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save,
he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love,
he will joy over thee with singing!

This meaning of His "coming" suddenly to His Temple as the Messenger of the covenant would have brought great blessings indeed to them! If they had recognized Him who was in their midst, how blessed indeed they would have been!

But sadly, they had failed to see Him for WHO He was, and the blessing was hid from their eyes!

. . . continuing:

@therationa,

The preceding answers so far have sought to distinguish for you the various contextual meanings of His "coming".

When you read of the "coming", please seek the context first before you assume the prophecy failed! The first text quoted in the other thread (Matthew 10:23) has been expounded - and I went further to show you another aspect of His "coming" which appertained to the prophecies of the OT prophets: especially Malachi who warned that the Lord that the Jews were seeking would COME suddenly into His Temple!

- - - -


Now, in answer to your assumptions:

Your premise was in view of these texts: Matthew 16:24-28, Mark 8:34-38 and Luke 9:23-26 - and from which you understanding led you to believe that we have already missed Jesus' 2nd Coming.


Indeed, the apostles had not gone round the cities of Israel BEFORE that prophecy in Malachi 3;1 was fulfilled - and when He suddenly was in His Temple, rather than they seeing and recognizing that it was their Day of visitation for huge blessings, they did not. Sadly, they had neglected the prophecies (or interpreted them poorly, perhaps giving them a literal interpetation such as that it should have happened in Malachi's day suddenly). And when Jesus did "come" suddenly, it was a sad case of finding them living contrarily to His warning of preparing for that "coming". The result? He drove them out of the Temple before pronouncing to them that their house was left unto them desolate!

The same instance of reading the other verses you quoted out of CONTEXT!! Many people make these assumptions because they give them a "literal interpretation" without having considered the collective teaching on the various meanings of this teaching.

Where you failed to see them contextually, you will keep making the same mistakes!

- - -

Perhaps you may want to take the time to review them and let's read from you where we might have missed the "literal interpretation" in yours.

Cheers.

Stimulus,

Thanks for your responses, But try as I might I just could not link them up together well enough in my head to understand them. No fault of yours, of course. My mind is just not wired up understand scriptures the way you do.

I was expecting you would deal with Matt 16: 28 but that was not forthcoming, alas. I shall modified the subject of my mail as promised to reflect the complicated nature of the subject.

How about this one?

Beware of any simplistic interpretation of jesus 2nd coming passages

@therationa,

therationa:

Stimulus,

Thanks for your responses, But try as I might I just could not link them up together well enough in my head to understand them. No fault of yours, of course. My mind is just not wired up understand scriptures the way you do.

I understand that giving a very detailed response would need careful reading and absorbing. Which is what I'd like you to do - please find the time and go through them: the point is simply this - there are are several contextual meanings to the subject of Jesus' coming, and they relate to:

     (a) His coming in view of the OT prophecies in a narrow sense

     (b) His coming in terms of the apocalypse in a broad sense

If these two issues are kept well in view, the seeming confusion soon dissolve away.

therationa:

I was expecting you would deal with Matt 16: 28 but that was not forthcoming, alas.

Well, I did deal in a summary way with Matthew 16:28 when I made this concluding remarks:

stimulus:


Now, in answer to your assumptions:

Your premise was in view of these texts: Matthew 16:24-28, Mark 8:34-38 and Luke 9:23-26 - and from which you understanding led you to believe that we have already missed Jesus' 2nd Coming.

If you follow the reason why I set forth the distinct meanings of the subject of His Coming, Matthew 16:28 should not be difficult to see as regards your inference. Please let me know if you need further clarification thereto.

therationa:

I shall modified the subject of my mail as promised to reflect the complicated nature of the subject.

Will look forward to that.

therationa:

How about this one?

Beware of any simplistic interpretation of jesus 2nd coming passages

Lol. . . thanks and much appreciated. I'm sure by the time you go through my rejoinders, you'd find that I'd well considered that advice while responding.

Cheers.

Stimulus,

Thanks. It's been fun

Thanks, therationa.

Bravo stimulus. Even i found it hard to wrap my head around your explanations . . . i learnt something new today thanks!