Mr_Anony:
Sorry, care to rephrase? I didn't get that at all.

matter cannot "magically" gain consciousness just as a radio cannot just magically start transmitting without an energy source that will bring the circuit to life.

Something kickstarted the human person.

But for the human activity called involuntary action other wise considered as a none deliberate action, it is also the brain that is resposible for it.

It is also the brain that is resposible for the action of a sleeping person since his actions are also involuntary while he is at sleep since he is still not doing things consciously at sleep. But his brain is still active.

While at sleep, certain parts of the brain are still at work.

Anony , I have a few questions :

If consciousness exists apart from the brain, kindly explain the following :

1. Amnesia : caused by damage to the brain and which gets increasingly worse with age. If the SOUL functions independently from the brain, why can it not take over these activities of memory retention, remembrance, recognition etc during episodes of amnesia

2. Fainting: As a boy growing up in boarding school, I have seen many fights where a bang to the head was all it took to send anyone into an unconscious state , normally lasting only a few minutes , when the victim recovered he would not normally recollect what happened for the first few seconds.

3. Comatose : Why do comatose victims not feel anything , know anything or remember anything ?

Why is it in all cases, that when the brain is impacted by some disease or damage , certain activities which are core to our being, such as memory, knowledge and the logical thought process , almost cease to function perfectly.

frosbel: Anony , I have a few questions :

If consciousness exists apart from the brain, kindly explain the following :

1. Amnesia : caused by damage to the brain and which gets increasingly worse with age. If the SOUL functions independently from the brain, why can it not take over these activities of memory retention, remembrance, recognition etc during episodes of amnesia

2. Fainting: As a boy growing up in boarding school, I have seen many fights where a bang to the head was all it took to send anyone into an unconscious state , normally lasting only a few minutes , when the victim recovered he would not normally recollect what happened for the first few seconds.

3. Comatose : Why do comatose victims not feel anything , know anything or remember anything ?

Why is it in all cases, that when the brain is impacted by some disease or damage , certain activities which are core to our being, such as memory, knowledge and the logical thought process , almost cease to function perfectly.

Point of correction, I do not hold that consciousness exists apart from the brain, I hold that the soul does and that is why we have a meaningful consciousness. Without a soul, man will effectively be a robot. The brain is a tool for thinking in much the same way the mouth is a tool for speech. Do you get my point?

Mr_Anony:
Point of correction, I do not hold that consciousness exists apart from the brain, I hold that the soul does and that is why we have a meaningful consciousness. Without a soul, man will effectively be a robot. The brain is a tool for thinking in much the same way the mouth is a tool for speech. Do you get my point?

okay, so we are on the same page with regard to point 1 - Consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain.

This brings me to the next question :

If consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain, what type and degree of consciousness are we to expect from the soul when it supposedly departs from a body at death ?

frosbel:

okay, so we are on the same page with regard to point 1 - Consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain.

This brings me to the next question :

If consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain, what type and degree of consciousness are we to expect from the soul when it supposedly departs from a body at death ?

Frosbel's only redeeming quality- debunking ridiculous christains that are different from his own

Logicboy03:

Frosbel's only redeeming quality- debunking ridiculous christains that are different from his own

KID go play with your mates, MEN are talking here

frosbel:

KID go play with your mates, MEN are talking here

I'm a man.


You mean to say "old men are talking here"

Mr_Anony:
If the brain controls everything, how can you talk about voluntary and involuntary actions? It is either the brain is voluntarily controlling something or something is overriding it's will and controlling it. It is illogical to say that the brain controls both voluntary and involuntary actions. Even your own response betrays you.

You are yet to show exactly us how matter magically develops a conscious intelligence.

Another meaningless talk. . .Its good you try to understand the context of what you are talking about before you speak some times. . .I define voluntary and involuntary actions biologically as follows. . .

Voluntary Actions: A voluntary action is basically an action which you yourself initiate by your own conscious. Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons. This action is under the control of the will thus is known as a voluntary action.

Involuntary Actions (Reflex Actions): Involuntary actions as their name suggest, are total opposites of voluntary actions, a reflex action is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

The brain controls all these things. . .How does the soul control anything on its own?. . . .

If there is something external to the brain that controls thoughts then why do people lose their memory when their brain malfunctions?. . .The immaterial soul that exist independent of the brain should not lose its ability to think, no?. . .People that lose all memory with brain injury, how will this same people remember everything after death without a brain when their brain is unable to remember anything as a result of injury or malfunction?. . .

mazaje:

Another meaningless talk. . .Its good you try to understand the context of what you are talking about before you speak some times. . .I define voluntary and involuntary actions biologically as follows. . .

Voluntary Actions: A voluntary action is basically an action which you yourself initiate by your own conscious. Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons. This action is under the control of the will thus is known as a voluntary action.

Involuntary Actions (Reflex Actions): Involuntary actions as their name suggest, are total opposites of voluntary actions, a reflex action is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

The brain controls all these things. . .How does the soul control anything on its own?. . . .

If there is something external to the brain that controls thoughts then why do people lose their memory when their brain malfunctions?. . .The immaterial soul that exist independent of the brain should not lose its ability to think, no?. . .People that lose all memory with brain injury, how will this same people remember everything after death without a brain when their brain is unable to remember anything as a result of injury or malfunction?. . .

How much more debunkery can Anony take?


This is embarrassing

Logicboy03:


I'm a man.


You mean to say "old men are talking here"

speak for yourself, old ke

mazaje:

Another meaningless talk. . .Its good you try to understand the context of what you are talking about before you speak some times. . .I define voluntary and involuntary actions biologically as follows. . .

Voluntary Actions: A voluntary action is basically an action which you yourself initiate by your own conscious. Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons. This action is under the control of the will thus is known as a voluntary action.

Involuntary Actions (Reflex Actions): Involuntary actions as their name suggest, are total opposites of voluntary actions, a reflex action is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

The brain controls all these things. . .How does the soul control anything on its own?. . . .

If there is something external to the brain that controls thoughts then why do people lose their memory when their brain malfunctions?. . .The immaterial soul that exist independent of the brain should not lose its ability to think, no?. . .People that lose all memory with brain injury, how will this same people remember everything after death without a brain when their brain is unable to remember anything as a result of injury or malfunction?. . .

fair points and well said !!

frosbel:

okay, so we are on the same page with regard to point 1 - Consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain.

I don't think we are really on the same page as you seem to have over-simplified my stance. Before I go to the next question, I'll break something down for you.
Let us look at what it means to be conscious let's strip away the bits that make up your consciousness so you get what I mean.

Assuming you had no eyes, no sense of smell, no sense of taste, no ears, and no sense of touch but your brain was still working, can you be said to be conscious?

Now compare with a robot with a powerful CPU equipped with a camera, sound detection, tactile pressure sensors, and odor sensors. It will be able to see, here and feel and also make calculations based on the input it gets. Can this robot be said to be conscious?

The point I am making is that the consciousness you have now does not come from your brain, it comes to your brain. You use your brain to think, your brain doesn't think you into existence.

This brings me to the next question :

If consciousness cannot exist apart from the brain, what type and degree of consciousness are we to expect from the soul when it supposedly departs from a body at death ?

When the soul leaves the body, it has a different form of consciousness. one that is not reliant on physical stimuli because the soul is no longer accessing reality via a brain.

Mr_Anony:
I don't think we are really on the same page as you seem to have over-simplified my stance. Before I go to the next question, I'll break something down for you.
Let us look at what it means to be conscious let's strip away the bits that make up your consciousness so you get what I mean.

Assuming you had no eyes, no sense of smell, no sense of taste, no ears, and no sense of touch but your brain was still working, can you be said to be conscious?

Now compare with a robot with a powerful CPU equipped with a camera, sound detection, tactile pressure sensors, and odor sensors. It will be able to see, here and feel and also make calculations based on the input it gets. Can this robot be said to be conscious?

The point I am making is that the consciousness you have now does not come from your brain, it comes to your brain. You use your brain to think, your brain doesn't think you into existence.



When the soul leaves the body, it has a different form of consciousness. one that is not reliant on physical stimuli because the soul is no longer accessing reality via a brain.

Crap, boolshyt, nonsense......etc



Just shut up.

^^^^ what exactly was nonsense in what he said ..or you just felt like saying those words...

mazaje:

Another meaningless talk. . .Its good you try to understand the context of what you are talking about before you speak some times. . .I define voluntary and involuntary actions biologically as follows. . .

Voluntary Actions: A voluntary action is basically an action which you yourself initiate by your own conscious. Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons. This action is under the control of the will thus is known as a voluntary action.

Involuntary Actions (Reflex Actions): Involuntary actions as their name suggest, are total opposites of voluntary actions, a reflex action is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

The brain controls all these things. . .How does the soul control anything on its own?. . . .

If there is something external to the brain that controls thoughts then why do people lose their memory when their brain malfunctions?. . .The immaterial soul that exist independent of the brain should not lose its ability to think, no?. . .People that lose all memory with brain injury, how will this same people remember everything after death without a brain when their brain is unable to remember anything as a result of injury or malfunction?. . .

Lol, again you are confusing mechanism with agency.

Voluntary Actions: A voluntary action is basically an action which you yourself initiate by your own conscious. Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons. This action is under the control of the will thus is known as a voluntary action.

In other words, you make your brain do it.

Involuntary Actions (Reflex Actions): Involuntary actions as their name suggest, are total opposites of voluntary actions, a reflex action is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

The brain controls all these things. . .

In other words your brain does this by itself.


A while back, you said that man is nothing more than his brain so essentially the brain controls the will.

How exactly does your brain control a "you" that controls it in turn?

Logicboy03:


Crap, boolshyt, nonsense......etc



Just shut up.

Ok we've heard your voice. thank you for nothing.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]

Let us look at what it means to be conscious let's strip away the bits that make up your consciousness so you get what I mean.

Assuming you had no eyes, no sense of smell, no sense of taste, no ears, and no sense of touch but your brain was still working, can you be said to be conscious?

Yes.

The brain does not control only sensory organs , it does far more than that !

The brain stores memory, processes information and many other aspects of human physiology.

See below :




you can be deaf , dumb, blind ,not sensitive to stimuli and still be conscious.

Now compare with a robot with a powerful CPU equipped with a camera, sound detection, tactile pressure sensors, and odor sensors. It will be able to see, here and feel and also make calculations based on the input it gets. Can this robot be said to be conscious?

A robot cannot be said to be conscious, it is reliant on accurate intelligent data input to produce the desired output.

However, it cannot work when detached from the source of current , similar to a human body that cannot function without oxygen.

The point I am making is that the consciousness you have now does not come from your brain, it comes to your brain. You use your brain to think, your brain doesn't think you into existence.

Existence comes through the animation of the human body , by the spirit put into it by GOD or life giving breath for want of a better word.

Once this breath enters into man, his body anatomy begins to function and the various components begin to perform their specialized functions. The brain in this instance produces the sense of consciousnesses in that man.

When the soul leaves the body, it has a different form of consciousness. one that is not reliant on physical stimuli because the soul is no longer accessing reality via a brain.

Wrong.

If it did, then people who are brain dead, in a coma or experiencing bouts of amnesia will be fully conscious of their surroundings and respond accordingly.

To suggest that we have a docile soul inside us , which becomes active when we die , is unscientific, illogical , but most importantly unscriptural.

greatgenius: Some of you are not reasoning and thinking outside the box.. you are not your brain.. thoughts Originate from the mind and not the brain.. the brain is a receiver. A transformer.. To put it mildly its a radio. In fact the whole body is a RADIO

Behavioral changes sometimes happen during accidents or disruptions to the brain becuase like a radio any sort of damage to it affects its ability to receive a frequency signal.. nothing more nothing less

it is an obvious fallacy to think for instance that songs originate from a radio.. something we all did as kids..but unfortunateky some of you are still holding on to that fallacy about the brain

frosbel: Yes.

The brain does not control only sensory organs , it does far more than that !

The brain stores memory, processes information and many other aspects of human physiology. you can be deaf , dumb, blind ,not sensitive to stimuli and still be conscious.

conscious of what?

frosbel:
A robot cannot be said to be conscious, it is reliant on accurate intelligent data input to produce the desired output.

However, it cannot work when detached from the source of current , similar to a human body that cannot function without oxygen.

Good

frosbel: Existence comes through the animation of the human body , by the spirit put into it by GOD or life giving breath for want of a better word.

Once this breath enters into man, his body anatomy begins to function and the various components begin to perform their specialized functions. The brain in this instance produces the sense of consciousnesses in that man.

I would say that the spirit of a man accesses physical reality through the body. The brain doesn't produce the consciousness, it is only used as a tool to interpret it.

frosbel:
Wrong.

If it did, then people who are brain dead, in a coma or experiencing bouts of amnesia will be fully conscious of their surroundings and respond accordingly.

To suggest that we have a docile soul inside us , which becomes active when we die , is unscientific, illogical , but most importantly unscriptural.

You got me wrong. Once the soul leaves the body, it does not use the brain to access a physical reality. It is the tool that is damaged not the person. As for whether the bible talks about a soul distinct from the body,: Yes it does!

Logicboy03:


Crap, boolshyt, nonsense......etc



Just shut up.

lol.

Men!
What a drama.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, again you are confusing mechanism with agency.


In other words, you make your brain do it.

How do you read?. . . Your cerebral cortex (brain) sends impulses from it to the effectors (muscles or glands) via the spinal cord with relay neurons and finally a motor neurons.

In other words your brain does this by itself.

a reflex action [/b]is not under the control of the will. In this case, your spinal cord takes total control, without your own conscious will.

A while back, you said that man is nothing more than his brain so essentially the brain controls the will.

[b]How exactly does your brain control a "you" that controls it in turn?

The brain is the you. . .That is why some drugs affect the brain in a way that the "you" is at the mercy of the drugs. The you does ONLY what the drugs wants the "you" to do. . .If there is am immaterial part of the body called the soul as you call it, how then do such drugs affect it and make it lose its ability or derail is ability?. . .The brain is the man when it comes to thoughts, consciousness, and awareness. . .The soul has never been shown to exist anywhere. . .I have been asking you to show me how the soul exist on its own independent of the brain and all I get is one baseless talk or the other. . .You can not even back up the claim you are making with any evidence at all, yet you keep making them. . .

You got me wrong. Once the soul leaves the body, it does not use the brain to access a physical reality. It is the tool that is damaged not the person.

So people with mental illness have their souls damaged or what?. . .

[quote author=Mr_Anony]
conscious of what?

existence.


The brain is alive because :

1. The heart is still beating and pumping blood to and from it.

2. The Lungs are still working to respire and insert oxygen into the blood cells

3. The stomach is still digesting food and producing energy and nutrients for the brain to work more effectively

4. I have a body which can be laid down, though in a position of helplessness, on a bed , reclining chair or an object of similar kind.


In this state , I can think, reason, apply logic and disseminate knowledge. My emotions of hate, love, anger etc are still very much intact.

I would say that the spirit of a man accesses physical reality through the body. The brain doesn't produce the consciousness, it is only used as a tool to interpret it.

You say man is a spirit, though the bible says he is a mortal soul, but taking your position as true for sake of argument, consider the following questions and respond accordingly :

1. If the brain does not produce consciousness, what does ? How many types of consciousness are there ?

2. Does God create a spirit/soul each time a woman conceives and put it into the zygote , also does he do this for hundreds of thousands of zygotes at a time ? In summary , which came first the soul/spirit or the body.

3. If yes to no.3 , does this not contradict Genesis 2 where it says God completed all his work of creation on the 6th day ? Is he still creating spirits at conception according to your logic ?

4. What is the difference between the spirit and the soul ?

5. Why does the bible call man a living soul, ONLY after the breath of GOD enters into him ?

6. Where in the bible , especially from Genesis's account of creation is there mention of MAN created with 3 ingredients ?

7. Do you know better than the bible where it very often and quite categorically reinforces the fact that when a man dies his thoughts perish with him ?

" His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4

You got me wrong. Once the soul leaves the body, it does not use the brain to access a physical reality.

This is the stuff of Greek mythology and belongs to the platonic school of thought.

The breath is what leaves the body at death , not some bogus soul.

It is the tool that is damaged not the person. As for whether the bible talks about a soul distinct from the body,: Yes it does!

what makes the person ?

a. body
b. soul
c. spirit
d. a&b
e. a,b &c
f. a & c

Mr_Anony:
Lol, again you are confusing mechanism with agency.


In other words, you make your brain do it.


In other words your brain does this by itself.


A while back, you said that man is nothing more than his brain so essentially the brain controls the will.

How exactly does your brain control a "you" that controls it in turn?

^^^

is this meant to confuse someone?

The brain is the controller, that a computer hybernates does not mean the cpu is no longer working.
...................
The brain works based on the information that it receives and is being fed.

But when the brain is convince of some superior information rationale that it has been inputed into it will start acting in accordance with that input.

It can start accepting some signals or rejects certain signals from it sensing organs.

With the conviction on the inputed you can then see a beautiful(naked woman not your wife) woman you remove your face or you decide to feed your eyes.

All this ^^^ are based on the initial input into the brain that looking at an naked woman not your wife will get you arouse/fall.

This ^^^ are actually how the decisions of the brain are arrived upon and depending on the varieties/volume of information stored(memory)


This are the conditions that the brain operates upon.

Without an initial imputed information there is no basis for the brain to decide to look at a naked she or refused to look at her.
Eg, little kids.

Man has nothing to do with an external/interna soul.


With more storage of information into the brain to work with, experience/knowledge = memory you have more info to scan(meditation/analysis) befor output = action.

Depending on the priority attached to the issues under consideration this action can continue into the persons sleep and can cause certain obvious reactions when certain stored or inputed information is unravel.

Control of the person or of the brain is as a result of such convictions, all Withing the brain.

Mr_Anony:


I would say that the spirit of a man accesses physical reality through the body.

the spirit of God is an impersonal force that activate the body, much like an electrical current is an impersonal force that activate the radio, TV, computer, fan, etc etc.

But the different being that the spirit of the almighty God is the most powerful force in the whole univers, and can do whatsoever the almighty wants to do.

This same spirit like an electrical current does a lot of things.

One of such things being kickstarting a man to life.

Man and animals.

Mr_Anony:
The brain doesn't produce the consciousness, it is only used as a tool to interpret it.

another word for the character output of a man is "his spirit". That is,
the spirit of the man of the character of the man, you can tell a man, you have a violent spirit, meaning, you have a violent character.
....................

But the sustenance of the man is the spirit or the power of God.

It is a power the power that drives/runs the man and not the man.
It is this spirit or power that goes back to God.

The current that runs a TV set is not the TV.

This same spirit was what the almighty God gave to Jesus to use in all his miracles including the apostles and prophets.

It was God's power that was given to them and not a person.


This power of the almighty is unlimited on what it can do, but only what is the will of the almighty that the almighty uses it on.

The almighty controls it and we are only surviving from it.
see:
"And "all" flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: "All" in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." (Genesis 7:21-22).

Another name for the spirit of God is the breath of God.
Peace.

truthislight:

^^^

is this meant to confuse someone?

The brain is the controller, that a computer hybernates does not mean the cpu is no longer working.
...................
The brain works based on the information that it receives and is being fed.

But when the brain is convince of some superior information rationale that it has been inputed into it will start acting in accordance with that input.

It can start accepting some signals or rejects certain signals from it sensing organs.

With the conviction on the inputed you can then see a beautiful(naked woman not your wife) woman you remove your face or you decide to feed your eyes.

All this ^^^ are based on the initial input into the brain that looking at a naked woman not your wife will get you arouse/fall.

This ^^^ are actually how the decisions of the brain are arrived upon and depending on the varieties/volume of information stored(memory)


This are the conditions that the brain operates upon.

Without an initial imputed information there is no basis for the brain to decide to look at a naked she or refused to look at her.
Eg, little kids. Has nothing to do with an external/internal soul.


With more storage of information into the brain to work with, experience/knowledge = memory you have more info to scan(meditation/analysis) befor output = action.

Depending on the priority attached to the issues under consideration this action can continue into the persons sleep and can cause certain obvious reactions when certain stored or inputed information is unravel.

Control of the person or of the brain is as a result of such convictions, all Withing the brain.

Very nicely said. . .

Where is Mr. Anony ?

frosbel: existence.


The brain is alive because :

1. The heart is still beating and pumping blood to and from it.

2. The Lungs are still working to respire and insert oxygen into the blood cells

3. The stomach is still digesting food and producing energy and nutrients for the brain to work more effectively

4. I have a body which can be laid down, though in a position of helplessness, on a bed , reclining chair or an object of similar kind.


In this state ,I can think, reason, apply logic and disseminate knowledge. My emotions of hate, love, anger etc are still very much intact.

@bold, I wonder how you can possibly do those things seeing that you have never seen anything, heard anything, smelt anything, felt any touch or tasted anything. So what exactly will you be thinking about?

frosbel: 1. If the brain does not produce consciousness, what does ? How many types of consciousness are there ?

2. Does God create a spirit/soul each time a woman conceives and put it into the zygote , also does he do this for hundreds of thousands of zygotes at a time ? In summary , which came first the soul/spirit or the body.

3. If yes to no.3 , does this not contradict Genesis 2 where it says God completed all his work of creation on the 6th day ? Is he still creating spirits at conception according to your logic ?

4. What is the difference between the spirit and the soul ?

5. Why does the bible call man a living soul, ONLY after the breath of GOD enters into him ?

6. Where in the bible , especially from Genesis's account of creation is there mention of MAN created with 3 ingredients ?

7. Do you know better than the bible where it very often and quite categorically reinforces the fact that when a man dies his thoughts perish with him ?

" His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." - Psalm 146:4

1. As I said, the brain does not produce consciousness. We only access physical consciousness through the brain - or more specifically the five senses.

2. I don't know the mechanics of how God creates spirits, souls and bodies but I know he created them.

3. Not applicable

4. That's a tough question. Kinda like asking the difference between God and the Spirit of God....besides it is beyond the scope of the discussion I have agreed to have with Mazaje. Perhaps some other time, we'll discuss it in depth.

5. Man also became a living body when God breathed into him and becomes a dead body when he breathes his last. Emphasizing on the word "soul" does you no favors.

6. If you agree that the breath of God is man's spirit and the inanimate dust figure is man's body and man's body sprang to life when God breathed into it but God doesn't call man a living body, He calls man a living soul, This should tell you that there are three components in action there.
I know you will contest this because you believe that body + spirit(breath) = conscious soul. The problem is that your stance will make it difficult for you to comprehend scripture.
Here are some examples (all quoted from your favourite RSV)

Psalm 31:9 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am in distress; my eye is wasted from grief, my soul and my body also.

Isaiah 10:18 The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land the LORD will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 35:18 And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called his name Benjamin.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The above verses show that there is a clear distinction between the soul and the body.

7. Actually, you misquoted Psalm 146:4 because "thoughts" as used there is in the context of man's future plans and it tries to show us the futility of man's machinations when compared to God so that we don't trust in man because he doesn't own his life and all his plans and intentions perish at death.

Now more to the point you are trying to make; I don't dispute that when a person dies he loses touch with the physical, he is cut off from all physical experience. What I maintain and the bible agrees with is that man retains a conscious soul that leaves after the body dies. It doesn't interact with the physical anymore because it lacks a body.

frosbel: This is the stuff of Greek mythology and belongs to the platonic school of thought.

The breath is what leaves the body at death , not some bogus soul.

The bible does not agree with you.

frosbel: what makes the person ?

a. body
b. soul
c. spirit
d. a&b
e. a,b &c
f. a & c

Answer: Option E: a,b&c.

1Thessalonians 5:23: May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mr_Anony:

@bold, I wonder how you can possibly do those things seeing that you have never seen anything, heard anything, smelt anything, felt any touch or tasted anything. So what exactly will you be thinking about?



1. As I said, the brain does not produce consciousness. We only access physical consciousness through the brain - or more specifically the five senses.

2. I don't know the mechanics of how God creates spirits, souls and bodies but I know he created them.

3. Not applicable

4. That's a tough question. Kinda like asking the difference between God and the Spirit of God....besides it is beyond the scope of the discussion I have agreed to have with Mazaje. Perhaps some other time, we'll discuss it in depth.

5. Man also became a living body when God breathed into him and becomes a dead body when he breathes his last. Emphasizing on the word "soul" does you no favors.

6. If you agree that the breath of God is man's spirit and the inanimate dust figure is man's body and man's body sprang to life when God breathed into it but God doesn't call man a living body, He calls man a living soul, This should tell you that there are three components in action there.
I know you will contest this because you believe that body + spirit(breath) = conscious soul. The problem is that your stance will make it difficult for you to comprehend scripture.
Here are some examples (all quoted from your favourite RSV)

Psalm 31:9 Be gracious to me, O LORD, for I am in distress; my eye is wasted from grief, my soul and my body also.

Isaiah 10:18 The glory of his forest and of his fruitful land the LORD will destroy, both soul and body, and it will be as when a sick man wastes away.

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Genesis 35:18 And as her soul was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called his name Benjamin.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The above verses show that there is a clear distinction between the soul and the body.

7. Actually, you misquoted Psalm 146:4 because "thoughts" as used there is in the context of man's future plans and it tries to show us the futility of man's machinations when compared to God so that we don't trust in man because he doesn't own his life and all his plans and intentions perish at death.

Now more to the point you are trying to make; I don't dispute that when a person dies he loses touch with the physical, he is cut off from all physical experience. What I maintain and the bible agrees with is that man retains a conscious soul that leaves after the body dies. It doesn't interact with the physical anymore because it lacks a body.



The bible does not agree with you.



Answer: Option E: a,b&c.

1Thessalonians 5:23: May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that soul in the Bible is the man or animal (Gen 2:7 - man became a soul when he received breath of life). Similarly soul is used to describe dead men or dead bodies, meaning soul (man) dies (nephesh-soul used at Leviticus 21:1, Numbers 9:6, Numbers 9:7)

Soul is also used often to mean "life that a person or animal has". Most of the verses you quoted refer to soul in this usage.

Example of soul being used to refer to "life" is Acts 20:10 - "To whom, when Paul had gone down, he laid himself upon him, and embracing him, said: Be not troubled, for his soul is in him". (Douay Rheims). Most translations use life, though it should be soul.

Note too that "spirit" is used to mean character or mental disposition/attitude - e.g spirit of jealousy (Numbers 5:14). Most of the verses you quoted refer to spirit in this usage.

In Matt 10:28 - Here soul is used to mean "life" or prospect of life. Jesus here meant we should be concerned about God who can deprive us of life. Satan and his agents can kill us, but God can give us life again (by resurrection). Only God can permanently take away life from a person - as if by burning in a fire, meaning permanent destruction without possibility of resurrection.

Hebrews 4:12 simply means the Bible can change lifes and show people up for what they really are. Soul here is life and spirit is character - combined to denote a living person's inner feelings or mental disposition/character that can be laid bare or change by the bible's message. Unless you think the bible can attack real joints and marrow.

In 1Thessalonians 5:23, here Paul was talking of the preserving (used by some translations instead of sanctifying - no biggy) the church or congretion. From the context, the Thessalonians were to remain blameless by praying (verse 17), quench not the Spirit (verse 19), keep away from evil ( verse 22) so that the spirit ( mental disposition or character of the congregation), body (members of congregation - 1 Corinthians 12:12-13), and soul (life or existence ) of the congregation is preserved.

Paul couldn't have been talking of preserving physical body (why would physical body need to be preserved at death - until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again - when it returns to dust) or preserving spirit in the context you are looking at.

Nothing here to hold onto to support story of the immortal soul that survives and lives indepndent of the body at death.

The bible's message is so clear, no point twisting unrelated verses. Here's what was going to happen to man (Adam) after his sin:

Gen 3:19 - By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Eccl 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Man stays dead untill resurrection. That's the whole point of resurrection - if man had an immortal (and better) component that continues to live after death, then the whole point of resurrection would be meaningless.

.

TroGunn:

Note that soul in the Bible is the man or animal (Gen 2:7 - man became a soul when he received breath of life). Similarly soul is used to describe dead men or dead bodies, meaning soul (man) dies (nephesh-soul used at Leviticus 21:1, Numbers 9:6, Numbers 9:7)

Soul is also used often to mean "life that a person or animal has". Most of the verses you quoted refer to soul in this usage.

Example of soul being used to refer to "life" is Acts 20:10 - "To whom, when Paul had gone down, he laid himself upon him, and embracing him, said: Be not troubled, for his soul is in him". (Douay Rheims). Most translations use life, though it should be soul.

Note too that "spirit" is used to mean character or mental disposition/attitude - e.g spirit of jealousy (Numbers 5:14). Most of the verses you quoted refer to spirit in this usage.

In Matt 10:28 - Here soul is used to mean "life" or prospect of life. Jesus here meant we should be concerned about God who can deprive us of life. Satan and his agents can kill us, but God can give us life again (by resurrection). Only God can permanently take away life from a person - as if by burning in a fire, meaning permanent destruction without possibility of resurrection.

Hebrews 4:12 simply means the Bible can change lifes and show people up for what they really are. Soul here is life and spirit is character - combined to denote a living person's inner feelings or mental disposition/character that can be laid bare or change by the bible's message. Unless you think the bible can attack real joints and marrow.

In 1Thessalonians 5:23, here Paul was talking of the preserving (used by some translations instead of sanctifying - no biggy) the church or congretion. From the context, the Thessalonians were to remain blameless by praying (verse 17), quench not the Spirit (verse 19), keep away from evil ( verse 22) so that the spirit ( mental disposition or character of the congregation), body (members of congregation - 1 Corinthians 12:12-13), and soul (life or existence ) of the congregation is preserved.

Paul couldn't have been talking of preserving physical body (why would physical body need to be preserved at death - until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again - when it returns to dust) or preserving spirit in the context you are looking at.

Nothing here to hold onto to support story of the immortal soul that survives and lives indepndent of the body at death.

The bible's message is so clear, no point twisting unrelated verses. Here's what was going to happen to man (Adam) after his sin:

Gen 3:19 - By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Eccl 3:19-20 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Man stays dead untill resurrection. That's the whole point of resurrection - if man had an immortal (and better) component that continues to live after death, then the whole point of resurrection would be meaningless.

i guess you have done a fine job of it already.
Well dong.

I dont just know when the spirit of Gone turned to an individual.

God send his spirit or his power and takes it back when the persons dies, but people wish to say that this spirit now turns to a person while returning back. Na wao!

Meanwhile it is this same spirit that God us in doing all other things in divers form and the creeping things.

Well, since this same spirit powers all other living things like worms, ant, flies maggot, milipede, centipede, rats, cockroches, mice, etc etc, they also go back to stay with God when the spirit also goes back to God.
see:

"And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of

every "creeping" thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the "breath of life",

of all that was in the dry land, died." (Genesis 7:21-22).

"And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the "creeping" things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:23).
...............

Yes, all this creeping things are with God also since the same breath/spirit on them leaves and go back to God according to @Annony.
*sigh*

Anony claims that there is an elusive soul somewhere, he refuses to tell us where it is located and completely refuses to provide a single evidence for it. . .So far his argument for the soul remains people think and reason that means "soul". . .LOL!. . .Show us that the soul exist independently of the brain, all we get to read about is endless long English. . .