Luke 6:40 (KJV):
The disciple is not above his master: but everyone that is perfect shall be as his master.

however in aramaic the bolded word is actually :

"Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she' MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

The most accurate and honest translation for
the Aramaic 'mushlam' is none other than the Arabic, 'muslim'.

The Hebrew word "mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace". "Salem" means "safe".

see the Aramaic bible society ,
http://home.comcast.net/ ~rzuberi/
index_files/page0005.htm , and http://
home.comcast.net/~rzuberi/articles/
Being_Like_The_Teacher.pdf .

@op .. Is it necessary for you to bring christianity into the picture for you to validate your believe in islam?
Well, gospel of luke was originally written in greek koine,a dialect in attic greek. So tell me how an aramaic word is going to validate the use of the word ‘mushlam‘ or whatever it is?

Alaafia l‘oro:
@op .. Is it necessary for you to bring christianity into the picture for you to validate your believe in islam?

not christianity, Jesus Christ.

Alaafia l‘oro:

Well, gospel of luke was originally written in greek koine,a dialect in attic greek. So tell me how an aramaic word is going to validate the use of the word ‘mushlam‘ or whatever it is?

I wonder why that is. Jesus didn't speak greek.

F00028:

not christianity, Jesus Christ.


I wonder why that is. Jesus didn't speak greek.

Well, I believe muslims don‘t believe in the bible, therefore anything you want to use to support your claim about Jesus should not be taken from the bible.
As for the language, Jesus wasn‘t the one who ‘wrote‘ the gospel of luke himself, hence the language he spoke during his time doesn‘t matter(in the case of this gospel) since the original writer wrote in another language; what matters is the meaning of the word in the original text of the original writer.

Alaafia l‘oro:

Well, I believe muslims don‘t believe in the bible, therefore anything you want to use to support your claim about Jesus should not be taken from the bible.

Muslims believe in the exact revelation God gave Jesus not the gospel according to mark or john. if they are the words of Jesus, they are scripture.

though the bible does contain the words of the Prophets it also contains the wrods of other people, anonymous even. so as a whole we do not consider the bible as the word of God.

Alaafia l‘oro:

As for the language, Jesus wasn‘t the one who ‘wrote‘ the gospel of luke himself, hence the language he spoke during his time doesn‘t matter(in the case of this gospel) since the original writer wrote in another language; what matters is the meaning of the word in the original text of the original writer.

no, what matters are the exact words spoken by Jesus. things get lost in translation all the time.
and a person's background, experiences, education, perspective, etc easily influence his translation/interpretation.

Well, as you said ‘muslims don‘t consider bible as the word of God‘, since you don‘t consider it as the word of God, isn‘t it demeaning for you to pick some texts( no matter who is believed to be the speaker) and make use of it?
Having said that, the word ‘mushlam‘ actually means ‘spiritually perfect‘ and not in anyway referring to muslims as a regilion/sect.
Besides, what assurance do you have that ‘mushlam‘ is the only aramaic word which has the same meaning as ‘perfect‘ since Jesus could have used any of those other words.

Alaafia l‘oro:
Well, as you said ‘muslims don‘t consider bible as the word of God‘, since you don‘t consider it as the word of God, isn‘t it demeaning for you to pick some texts( no matter who is believed to be the speaker) and make use of it?

I said, we do not consider the bible, as a whole the word of God.

Alaafia l‘oro:

Having said that, the word ‘mushlam‘ actually means ‘spiritually perfect‘ and not in anyway referring to muslims as a regilion/sect.

but Jesus Christ never said, ‘spiritually perfect‘ or even the greek, 'teleios'. if he spoke aramaic he said 'mushlam'.

Alaafia l‘oro:
Besides, what assurance do you have that ‘mushlam‘ is the only aramaic word which has the same meaning as ‘perfect‘ since Jesus could have used any of those other words.

you have evidence for this?

Evidence? You are looking for evidence when you are obviously feeding on half information gotten from an islamic website. Com‘on, there is no language which doesn‘t have synonyms for almost every word, you can‘t jump into conclusion that he made use of the exact word ‘mushlam‘.
Having said that, what is the meaning of ‘mushlam‘ ? I ‘ve my own meaning for it (from the internet) but let me know yours so as to know the direction the discussion should go. Thanks.

@F00028, according to your quote

Muslims believe in the exact revelation God gave Jesus not the gospel according to mark or john. if they are the words of Jesus, they are scripture.

Like i mentioned in a thread on this board, if one is patient enough on this board, you guys will hang yourselves with your contradictions. From your post, you said muslims believe in the words of Jesus, do you believe these words of Jesus? If you do not believe according to Mark or John, why do you believe according to Luke?

John 10:36-38 NKJV

do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

Alaafia l‘oro:
Evidence? You are looking for evidence when you are obviously feeding on half information gotten from an islamic website. Com‘on, there is no language which doesn‘t have synonyms for almost every word, you can‘t jump into conclusion that he made use of the exact word ‘mushlam‘.
Having said that, what is the meaning of ‘mushlam‘ ? I ‘ve my own meaning for it (from the internet) but let me know yours so as to know the direction the discussion should go. Thanks.

of course am looking for evidence. and since you have the "full" information it shouldn't be difficult for you to provide it.

your are the one alluding he used a synonym

proo212: @F00028, according to your quote


Like i mentioned in a thread on this board, if one is patient enough on this board, you guys will hang yourselves with your contradictions. From your post, you said muslims believe in the words of Jesus, do you believe these words of Jesus? If you do not believe according to Mark or John, why do you believe according to Luke?

it doesn't how many times you've mentioned it. this is what I said: ..if they are the words of Jesus, they are scripture.

F00028:

of course am looking for evidence. and since you have the "full" information it shouldn't be difficult for you to provide it.

your are the one alluding he used a synonym

Let‘s forget about the synonyms stuff. Let‘s go back to my previous question : what‘s the meaning of mushlam?

F00028:

it doesn't how many times you've mentioned it. this is what I said: ..if they are the words of Jesus, they are scripture.

...but the versees proo02 quoted above was spoken by Jesus, so do you now believe that he‘s the son of God?

Alaafia l‘oro:

...but the versees proo02 quoted above was spoken by Jesus, so do you now believe that he‘s the son of God?

he, Jacob/Israel, Ephraim, David etc all sons of God. -ex 4:22, jer 31:9, ps 2:7

and when proo212's bible class gets to joh 14:20 he will see as Jesus is in the Father, the disciples are in him and he in them.
that makes them deities too?

Alaafia l‘oro:

Let‘s forget about the synonyms stuff. Let‘s go back to my previous question : what‘s the meaning of mushlam?

let's not.

" The Hebrew word "mushlam" comes from the root "Sh L M". "Shalom" which comes from the same root means "peace". The Arabic word "muslim" comes from the root "S L M". "Salam" means "peace". "Salem" means "safe"."

@F00028 the last time i checked. Jacob, Israel, David and even myself are sons of God because we believe in God of Abraham Isaac and David and Jacob/Israel. This is what John 1:12 says and i quote 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So there is no contradiction here. If you do the same you too will be called son of God

But Psalm 2:7 you referred to is actually referring to Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the only Begotten Son of God 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.This is also confirmed in John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, [b]the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,[/b]) full of grace and truth.

@foo8 .. As per ‘son of God‘ saga, proo02 has given you a good reply.
Concerning ‘mushlam‘, I think we both agreed that Jesus spoke Aramaic during his time on earth, but the meaning of mushlam you gave above is from Hebrew context, isn‘t that too incoherent or are Aramaic and Hebrew now the same language??!

proo212: @F00028 the last time i checked. Jacob, Israel, David and even myself are sons of God...

then what's so special about Jesus? if its because he had no earthly father? Adam had no father or mother!

Jesus at least had a mother so creating him was only half the trouble. Adam is a greater miracle.

besides, the man calls himself "son of man" about seventy times.

proo212:
But Psalm 2:7 you referred to is actually referring to Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the only Begotten Son of God 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.This is also confirmed in John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, [b]the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,[/b]) full of grace and truth.

"this day have I begotten thee"- if it refers to Jesus not David as you claim, that about 500 years after Moses. was it then that Jesus was begotten?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.." - are these the words of Jesus?

maybe you can tell me clearly what exactly does "son of God" mean

@alaafia l‘oro

ok. enlighten me, please.

@f0028.. Enlighten you kè? You started the thread and I believe you have alot you want to share with us.
Just to clear things, both(Hebrew and Aramaic) are from western branch of semitic languages, but Hebrew is more ancient than the Aramaic. Besides, Hebrew is a canaanite language whereas Aramaic is not. Hebrew has periodic dialects which can bring about differences in the actual meaning of few word(s). But in the case of Aramaic,it even varies more as there are regional and periodical dialects leading to possible differences in meaning of FEW words from region to region and period to period.
I believe you can now reason with me that the actual meaning of the word ‘mushlam‘ in Hebrew(which you quoted above) may be different from that of Aramaic(which was the language spoken by Jesus), hence there‘s need for you(since you are the OP) to come up with Aramaic meaning.

Alaafia l‘oro:
@f0028.. Enlighten you kè? You started the thread and I believe you have alot you want to share with us.
Just to clear things, both(Hebrew and Aramaic) are from western branch of semitic languages, but Hebrew is more ancient than the Aramaic. Besides, Hebrew is a canaanite language whereas Aramaic is not. Hebrew has periodic dialects [size=20pt] which can [/size] bring about differences in the actual meaning of few word(s). But in the case of Aramaic,it even varies more as there are regional and periodical dialects leading to [size=20pt] possible [/size] differences in meaning of FEW words from region to region and period to period.
I believe you can now reason with me that the actual meaning of the word ‘mushlam‘ in Hebrew(which you quoted above) [size=20pt] may be [/size] different from that of Aramaic(which was the language spoken by Jesus), hence there‘s need for you(since you are the OP) to come up with Aramaic meaning.

-I already did share

-you are the contentious one. you come up with that aramaic meaning. and stop wasting time with all this, it can, it may, it's possible...

F00028:

-I already did share

-you are the contentious one. you come up with that aramaic meaning. and stop wasting time with all this, it can, it may, it's possible...

Com‘on, why will you expect me to be assertive when we are supposedly discussing, and not arguing? Individuals will only believe whatever they want to believe.
Like I said earlier, mushlam means submission to God and being perfect and muslims are not the only ones that submit to God(provided we are talking about the same God), jewish and xtians also do. The arabic translation is not what matters but the original language of the writer(Greek) which is ‘katarizo‘ which means to be complete.
Futhermore, Islam started only after Mohammed professed to receive messages from God, thus I don‘t see any reason why Jesus would be referring to it when it was non-existence then.
Next time, you want to get information about controversial religious matter, try as much as possible to get it from neutral sites/persons as info from religious sites are usually sentimental.

@ Foo - Muslims believe in the exact revelation God gave Jesus not the gospel according to mark or john. if they are the words of Jesus, they are scripture

Jesus also said the following among other things:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me - John 14:6
“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. - John 3:10-18

Do you still believe God's revelation to Jesus is true?

Alaafia l‘oro:

Like I said earlier, mushlam means submission to God and being perfect and muslims are not the only ones that submit to God(provided we are talking about the same God), jewish and xtians also do...

then why in the name God, were you making such a fuss?

in our submission we accept all of God's prophets. the Jews stop at Moosa and reject Jesus. you stop at Jesus and reject Muhammad.

Alaafia l‘oro:

The arabic translation is not what matters but the original language of the writer(Greek) which is ‘katarizo‘ which means to be complete.

Jesus didn't speak greek, didn't write greek, didn't ask any greek to write anything in greek. and nothing was written in greek while he was around.

plus your scholars don't know for sure who the writer was.

Alaafia l‘oro:
Futhermore, Islam started only after Mohammed professed to receive messages from God, thus I don‘t see any reason why Jesus would be referring to it when it was non-existence then.

have you never heard of 'prophesies'?

Alaafia l‘oro:
Next time, you want to get information about controversial religious matter, try as much as possible to get it from neutral sites/persons as info from religious sites are usually sentimental.

I advise you to listen to all sides.

Yes F00028, there are prophecies but NONE of the prophecies point to the coming of Mohammed. I know the prophecies you point out before you even begin to reply but for the sake of argument, try me with the prophecies of Mohammed.

As an aside to what we were discussing

@F00028, I think you are just trying to be smart here. I wish you would scrutinise Islam the same way you analyse whether Jesus Christ is the Son of God or not

F00028:
then what's so special about Jesus? if its because he had no earthly father? Adam had no father or mother!

Jesus at least had a mother so creating him was only half the trouble. Adam is a greater miracle.

besides, the man calls himself "son of man" about seventy times.

"this day have I begotten thee"- if it refers to Jesus not David as you claim, that about 500 years after Moses. was it then that Jesus was begotten?

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.." - are these the words of Jesus?

maybe you can tell me clearly what exactly does "son of God" mean

Adam and Eve had no father ot mother but both the Bible and the Quran established that Adam and Eve were created from the dust or from clay. I know you believe that because the Quran says so...

You also acknowledge that Jesus had no earthly father because the Quran agrees with the bible. The question is, was Jesus Christ created or did He exist before creation?

omobaba101:
Jesus also said the following among other things:
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me - John 14:6...

so? during the time Moses, before Jesus, was there no way to God?

omobaba101: John
3:10-18

are these all the words of Jesus the Christ?

@F0028 .. The quran tells you mohammed is a prophet of God,which is not my problem. As a christian, I don‘t have anything to do with Mohammed and the fact that Jewish don‘t believe Jesus doesn‘t affect my faith. Submission to God has nothing to do with a prophet whose name is not seen in my holy scripture.
Which prophecy are you talking about here? Jesus did not prophesy about ‘muslim‘ or ‘mohammed‘, it‘s just a form of deception imployed by some religious leader to cause confusion.
As for the greek text; you are only sounding ridiculous, that you don‘t speak swahili doesn‘t mean someone can‘t write your biography in swahili.
Finally, if you truly consult neutral sites, you would have posted info from them and not only from ‘ask islam‘, ‘answering islam‘ and similar islamic sites.

Alaafia l‘oro:
@F0028 .. The quran tells you mohammed is a prophet of God,which is not my problem...

but if you are truly mushlam, as Jesus Christ would say, you shouldn't ignore a prophet of that God. especially one who brings a universal message and not just for a select group.

Alaafia l‘oro:
As for the greek text; you are only sounding ridiculous, that you don‘t speak swahili doesn‘t mean someone can‘t write your biography in swahili.

I suppose some anonymous writer could write my biography years after am gone, quoting me in another language, but I dont think people can reasonably take it as the definitive authority on my life.

@proo212
he was simply made to be. in the womb of a young Jewish Girl, only 2000 years ago, without any male intervention, by the All Wise, All Powerful Creator.

For that reason alone, we know He is unique if He was made to be in the womb of a Jewish woman 2000 years ago.

He was simply made to be? Why was He simply made to be? How was He made to be? Was His making prophesied like you claim the coming of Mohammed was prophesied but still havent shown? It's only fair that if an usual occurrence like his making was going to happen that he was prophesied...Mohammed's birth was not miraculous and you claim he was prophesied, Jesus Christ birth and coming to be was miraculous, its only logical that His coming to be was prophesied. There are prophecies concerning Christ (His coming to be like you said). In those prophecies, he was called Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace

What qualifies him as a prophet? I'm still waiting for the prophecies you wanted to point me to...

proo212: For that reason alone, we know He is unique if He was made to be in the womb of a Jewish woman 2000 years ago...

Adam is more unique. in his case there wasn't even a womb to carry him to term.

proo212: What qualifies him as a prophet? I'm still waiting for the prophecies you wanted to point me to...

you can correct me if I am wrong but I dont think I ever talked to YOU about any prophesies.

if you are dying to debate whether the coming of the prophet Muhammad was prophesied by Jesus Christ, start a thread.

@f0028 .. Mushlam as Jesus said? So for me to submit to God‘s will and be perfect I must believe anybody who claim to be God‘s messenger? Why don‘t you as a muslim believe every other self-professed messenger of God that has been on earth since after the death of Moh‘m?
Act 4 :10-12 made me understand that God has set Jesus for the salvation of mankind and there‘s no other through which man can be saved, so why should I be looking for someone else to validate my faith?