Nairaland Forum

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I get it now...Igbos have never had and will never have a leader even as powerful as Tinubu in Yoruba land or Buhari in the North. Igbos are too egalitarian and individualistic for that. Go through history, you'll notice that the leaders we've had have always led a particular section of Igboland and never all. People like Jim Nwobodo, Orji Uzor Kalu, Sam Mbakwe all were leaders in their various enclaves. Orji Uzor Kalu for example was powerful when he was governor of Abia state and when he formed his political party that controlled Abia state and was making headway in Imo state but never crossed into other parts of Igboland.

With all the Igbos in govt. yet he says there is no Igbo leader. What abt Dora, Oby(madam due procee), Rochas Okorocha Andy Uba?

Well, he might be right in another aspect. May be he's looking for someone who's charismatic enough and would gain their respect.
If Alex Ekwueme isn't good enough for him, who else is

What Abagworo says is true but this is also true of the other major groups in Nigeria Namely Hausa and Yoruba but traditionally and Politically.

Kano has traditionally not gone with mainstream Northern politic and as mentioned before in 1979 out of 10 states NPN got 5 in fact Ziks party got Plateau .
Awolowo Never had full support from All yorubas as we see in the likes of Adeniran Ogunsanya who went with Zik . So that assertion about Igbos is true about every other person.If we remove prejudice and stereotypes.
Zik was more powerful in Igboland than Tinubu was in Yorubaland.What is the measure of Tinubu's power
Igbo's are not MORE egalitarian than Yoruba's . What evidence do you have for this claim?

aribisala0: What Abagworo says is true but this is also true of the other major groups in Nigeria Namely Hausa and Yoruba but traditionally and Politically.

Kano has traditionally not gone with mainstream Northern politic and as mentioned before in 1979 out of 10 states NPN got 5 in fact Ziks party got Plateau .
Awolowo Never had full support from All yorubas as we see in the likes of Adeniran Ogunsanya who went with Zik . So that assertion about Igbos is true about every other person.If we remove prejudice and stereotypes

But it's truer for Igboland than anywhere else. Awolowo may not have gained the support of all Yorubas but he gained the support of at least 70% of Yorubaland. But the same cannot be said of any Igbo leader.

pazienza: The history of igbo tribes outdates all oral history we have in our hands today. Come on,reason it out yourself, why would the igbos have a word for something they don't know of. The word Eze is as old as igbo tribes,when igbos say,igbo enwe eze,who is this eze they are talking of? My hypothesis is that igbos once had a king,something must have happened along the line( may be a tyrant eze) that made the people reject the authority of this eze( igbo ama eze),and evolved a perfect system system of democracy.

The arrival of European colonialist brought the notion of an Eze in today's understanding of the word. A classic example : the fate of Ikemefuna( in Achebe's epic book of life in pre-colonial Igboland) was not decided by an Eze or his cabinet , but by the 'Oha' and the priests of the town's shrines. The present Igboland's Igwes and Ezes were created by modern Nigeria ; they are a wrong impression of what we are. An exploitative tool for politicians since the days of Mazi Mbonu Ojike, is what the present Igbo monarchs are. Why did the British introduce the controversial 'paramount rulers' in Igboland? Why would there be ' traditional rulers' in a culture with a monarchical leadership ? It's all fake....

Afam4eva:
But it's truer for Igboland than anywhere else. Awolowo may not have gained the support of all Yorubas but he gained the support of at least 70% of Yorubaland. But the same cannot be said of any Igbo leader.

If you must quote figures do not just make them up . ZIK's party NPP won Imo and Anambra state 100% in 1979 .
It is this kind of assertion that ALWAYS causes problems

Igbo are more virgin

Igbo are more honest

Igbo are more everything


If Yoruba were not egalitarian could Awolowo become a leader. When he is NOT from a ROYAL FAMILY. Same for Tinubu and many others.

EVIDENCE

asha 80:
i think the Enachioken of Arochukwu also belongs there.

Enachioken is the king of Abiriba. The king of Arochukwu is Eze Aro.

Moreover, I think people are misunderstanding the meaning of "Igbo amaghi eze". "Igbo amaghi eze" means that the Igbo nation (all the sub-ethnicities of Igboland) do not have one sovereign who rules over all of them. It doesn't mean that the Igbo never had kings.

aribisala0:
If you must quote figures do not just make them up . ZIK's party NPP won Imo and Anambra state 100% in 1979

If you noticed, i used Awolowo as an example instead of using his party or the NPN. The so called ZIK's party had other strong men who wielded some power in their locality and aided in his party winning in different states. It's like saying Tinubu's party won the Anambra senatorial seat for Ngige wherea Ngige won it for himself because he's a powerful man in his locality. Even if he had run under "HIV party", he would have most likely won too.

Afam4eva:
If you noticed, i used Awolowo as an example instead of using his party or the NPN. The so called ZIK's party had other strong men who wielded some power in their locality and aided in his party winning in different states. It's like saying Tinubu's party won the Anambra senatorial seat for Ngige wherea Ngige won it for himself because he's a powerful man in his locality. Even if he had run under "HIV party", he would have most likely won too.

So you say and where was Adedibu and others. WHy MUST you always make these claims about Igbos and when challenged conjure up all kinds of fantasy. Zik was a more powerful Igbo leader than Awo was a Yoruba leader judging by results and followership.In order to discuss it we need more study not just biased and prejudiced assertions that have no substance

aribisala0:
So you say and where was Adedibu and others[b][/b]. WHy MUST you always make these claims about Igbos and when challenged conjure up all kinds of fantasy

I don't get.

Afam4eva:
I don't get.

According to you Zik had henchmen but Awo was a god. Do you have evidence or is this just your opinion.We hear Igbos are more egalitarian than others WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE.

Must you put yourselves at the superlative of everything.Say Igbos are egalitarian . Fine no argument.
No Igbos are more egalitarian than every other person. Igbo have more virgins than every other person etc.EVIDENCE PLEASE
By the way Tinubu is NOT the leader of the Yoruba so do not mislead people

Nightshift: The chief priest of 'Ebini Ukpabi' had more powers than anybody in pre-colonial Arochukwu, including 'Eneachioke'.

This isn't true. Ibini Ukpabi never had a sole chief priest. It was attended to by several high priests and shrine servants. The truth is that Ibini Ukpabi was harmless and everyone in Arochukwu knew/knows that, however outsiders didn't. The Aro manipulated it to spread fear among outsiders. Therefore, the most powerful/influential man in Arochukwu is the Eze Aro.

aribisala0:
According to you Zik had henchmen but Awo was a god. Do you have evidence or is this just your opinion.We hear Igbos are more egalitarian than others WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE.

Must you put yourselves at the superlative of everything.Say Igbos are egalitarian . FIne
No Igbos are more egalitarian than every other person. Igbo have more virgins than every other person etc.EVIDENCE PLEASE

I just painted a scenario using ZIK's party. I'd rather we talk about these men individually. Awolowo was and is still highly revered by Yorubas than ZIK was and is reverred by Igbos. Tinubu is even more reverred by Yorubas than ZIK was to Igbos. It's there for everyone to see. What evidence do you want?

odumchi:

Enachioken is the king of Ohafia. The king of Arochukwu is Eze Aro.

Moreover, I think people are misunderstanding the meaning of "Igbo amaghi eze". "Igbo amaghi eze" means that the Igbo nation (all the sub-ethnicities of Igboland) do not have one sovereign who rules over all of them. It doesn't mean that the Igbo never had kings.

What do you mean by sub-ethnicities in an ethnic nation like Igboland? Ndigbo is one ethnic group with different dialects . Have you ever heard or read about King of Ngwa, Okigwe or Udi before the British arrived Igboland?

Nightshift: What do you mean by sub-ethnicities in an ethnic nation like Igboland? Ndigbo is one ethnic group with different dialects . Have you ever heard or read about King of Ngwa, Okigwe or Udi before the British arrived Igboland?

Even Ngwa, Okigwe and Udi are too big. You have to go further down the leader. Villages had kings and not towns because towns are new inventions in Igboland.

Afam4eva:
I just painted a scenario using ZIK's party. I'd rather we talk about these men individually. Awolowo was and is still highly revered by Yorubas than ZIK was and is reverred by Igbos. Tinubu is even more reverred by Yorubas than ZIK was to Igbos. It's there for everyone to see. What evidence do you want?

Afam why do you talk like this? What evidence do you have for Tinubu's reverence in general in order to compare it even to the reverence of GEJ among the Ijaws not to mention Zik who died long ago. That is the world the way you wish to see it not the way it is.DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR ASSERTION. Being revered does not make you a leader and sometimes people are revered more when dead than alive. Zik's party was more successfull in Igboland than any other party in their ethnic stronghold. NPP had 100% success in 1979 in Igboland

Nightshift: The arrival of European colonialist brought the notion of an Eze in today's understanding of the word. A classic example : the fate of Ikemefuna( in Achebe's epic book of life in pre-colonial Igboland) was not decided by an Eze or his cabinet , but by the 'Oha' and the priests of the town's shrines. The present Igboland's Igwes and Ezes were created by modern Nigeria ; they are a wrong impression of what we are. An exploitative tool for politicians since the days of Mazi Mbonu Ojike, is what the present Igbo monarchs are. Why did the British introduce the controversial 'paramount rulers' in Igboland? Why would there be ' traditional rulers' in a culture with a monarchical leadership ? It's all fake....

This is true for some sections of Igboland but not all. There were Eze's, Igwe's and Obi's in Igboland long before the coming of Europeans but the Europeans only harmonized it to achieve a system of leadership for entire Igbos. It is same as saying there was no Igbo language before the emergence of central Igbo. We all spoke various dialects that had various degrees of intelligibility before the emergence of a centralized language which all can understand. The Eze's ranged from priestly leaders to monarchs, from village heads, town heads to regional heads.

Nightshift: What do you mean by sub-ethnicities in an ethnic nation like Igboland? Ndigbo is one ethnic group with different dialects . Have you ever heard or read about King of Ngwa, Okigwe or Udi before the British arrived Igboland?

The Igbo are not a single people; they are a collection of similar and related peoples (sub-ethnicities), Ngwa being the largest (population-wise) of them. Not all Igbo sub-ethnicities had monarchs. Prior to the British, there were monarchs in: Arochukwu, Ohafia, Afikpo, Agukwu Nri, Agbor, Aboh, and other places.

odumchi:

This isn't true. Ibini Ukpabi never had a sole chief priest. It was attended to by several high priests and shrine servants. The truth is that Ibini Ukpabi was harmless and everyone in Arochukwu knew/knows that, however outsiders didn't. The Aro manipulated it to spread fear among outsiders. Therefore, the most powerful/influential man in Arochukwu is the Eze Aro.

If an Eze Aro with monarchical powers really existed before the British came he would have been popular like Oba Ewuare of Benin kingdom or King Jaja of Opopo. The feared priests of shrines had more powers than anybody in pre-colonial Igboland beside Onicha.

odumchi:

The Igbo are not a single people; they are a collection of similar and related peoples (sub-ethnicities), Ngwa being the largest (population-wise) of them. Not all Igbo sub-ethnicities had monarchs. Prior to the British, there were monarchs in: Arochukwu, Ohafia, Afikpo, Agukwu Nri, Agbor, Aboh, and other places.

Is it not likely if the British did not come that there would have emerged forces,whether external or internal , moving the Igbo in the direction of one nation

Nightshift: If an Eze Aro with monarchical powers really existed before the British came he would have been popular like Oba Ewuare of Benin kingdom or King Jaja of Opopo. The feared priests of shrines had more powers than anybody in pre-colonial Igboland beside Onicha.

The simple fact is that you don't know. Please google "Eze Aro".

aribisala0:
Afam why do you talk like this? What evidence do you have for Tinubu's reverence in general in order to compare it even to the reverence of GEJ among the Ijaws not to mention Zik who died long ago. That is the world the way you wish to see it not the way it is.DO YOU HAVE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR ASSERTION

Tinubu is the leader of ACN, a party that has colonized almost all of Yorubaland. Of course he did not do it alone and to be considered powerful, you have to be able to influence all the leaders that make up several parts of Yorubaland eg The Awujale, The Oba of Ijebu, The Alaafin etc. he influenced these people and these people in turn influenced their people. That shows how powerful Tinubu is in Yorubaland.

In Igboland on the other hand, Orji Uzor Kalu tried to do what Tinubu did and was only able to capture his small part of Igboland, he found it very hard to sell his idea to other Igbo territories. Even the people that bought his idea plotted against him and hijacked the party from him. In Enugu, Jim Nwobody was largely responsible for Chimaroke Nnamani's emergence as Enugu governor. When Nnamani got there, he just cut off the man that put him there and there's nothing Jim could do. he wasn't as powerful as Adedibu was in oyo, so he just let go. Chimaroake also god-fathered Sullican Chime and put him there and Sullivan Chime also did to Nnamani what Nnamani did to Jim Nwobodo. From this you can see that Igbos are egalitarian and individualistic and there's no powerful person in Igboland like you have in some other parts of the country. The only saving grace of some of these so-called powerful men in Igboland is that they are respecting themselves. As powerful as you think an Obi of Onitsha is, he knows his boundary and knows that if he tried any rubbish, small boys can raze his palace.

aribisala0:
Is it not likely if the British did not come that there would have emerged forces,whether external or internal , moving the Igbo in the direction of one nation

My speculation is that if Europeans hadn't stepped foot on the shores of eastern Nigeria, things would've remained the same.

odumchi:

The simple fact is that you don't know. Please google "Eze Aro".

You really need Google to know about your history ? List the Eze Aro you googled here. Go find out your history from the elders and stop depending on your history from Europeans.

.

Afam4eva:
Tinubu is the leader of ACN, a party that has colonized almost all of Yorubaland. Of course he did not do it alone and to be considered powerful, you have to be able to influence all the leaders that make up several parts of Yorubaland eg The Awujale, The Oba of Ijebu, The Alaafin etc. he influenced these people and these people in turn influenced their people. That shows how powerful Tinubu is in Yorubaland.

In Igboland on the other hand, Orji Uzor Kalu tried to do what Tinubu did and was only able to capture his small part of Igboland, he found it very hard to sell his idea to other Igbo territories. Even the people that bought his idea plotted against him and hijacked the party from him. In Enugu, Jim Nwobody was largely responsible for Chimaroke Nnamani's emergence as Enugu governor. When Nnamani got there, he just cut off the man that put him there and there's nothing Jim could do. he wasn't as powerful as Adedibu was in oyo, so he just let go. Chimaroake also god-fathered Sullican Chime and put him there and Sullivan Chime also did to Nnamani what Nnamani did to Jim Nwobodo. From this you can see that Igbos are egalitarian and individualistic and there's no powerful person in Igboland like you have in some other parts of the country. The only saving grace of some of these so-called powerful men in Igboland is that they are respecting themselves. As powerful as you think an Obi of Onitsha is, he knows his boundary and knows that if he tried any rubbish, small boys can raze his palace.

I think if you are to be taken seriously you should choose your words carefully. What do you mean by colonized? Has PDP colonized Igboland? or Nigeria.
There is no established pattern in the voting in the SW since 1999 to draw the kind of conclusion you are drawing. PDP contolled the SW between 2003-2007 under OBJ why not draw similar conclusions about OBJ.? They even controlled Ondo and Kwara which are Yoruba too so by that logic OBJ was a bigger leader and more revered than Tinubu. Did people in the SW vote for Tinubu or did they vote because the PDP governors failed. How will they vote if these governors fail them. Looking at the evidence it is clear that the SW politically is dynamic and is in fact the only part of the country that has changed hands.There are so many possible arguments and so how you can rationally choose yours is a mystery. If Orji Kalu failed does that mean he failed because of a particular feature of Igbo people? Is that the only variable. How rational is that analysis. Clearly when it comes to Igbo affairs you construct a very peculiar system of logic which is comprehensible only to you.
Tinubus party has failed quite miserably in Ondo because it seems they believe their governor is performing. Why not draw the simple and logical conclusion that Yorubas vote for performers rather than this twisted "YORUBA are not egalitarian Mumbo Jumbo".

Or that Igbos did not follow Orji Kalu because they do not trust him or he did not plan well or is too controversial, loud etc. Of all the possible explanations the most appealing is HE FAILED BECAUSE IGBOS ARE TOO EGALITARIAN.. Are you trying to say Igbos will forsake a performing politician to prove they are egalitarian?? What about Edo why did they go with ACN? They are not egalitarian too? Is it not the case that Orji Kalu and Tinubu both tried and failed in 2007 but Tinubu persisted because he believed in his ideas support etc
The truth is the Yoruba are not comfortable with the core DNA of PDP which is considered a party of opportunists and we are prepared to wait patiently rather than be with the so called center by all means. I suspect it is so elsewhere and PDP have been successful using violence and incumbency.

Nightshift: You really need Google to know about your history ? List the Eze Aro you googled here. Go find out your history from the elders and stop depending on your history from Europeans.

Jumping to silly conclusions, I see.

I simply asked you to google "Eze Aro" so as to teach yourself what you [apparently] don't know. As for myself, I know the complete history of my people. If you never knew that there have been Eze Aro long before Britain even dreamed of entering West Africa, then I don't know what to say.

odumchi:

Jumping to silly conclusions, I see.

I simply asked you to google "Eze Aro" so as to teach yourself what you [apparently] don't know. As for myself, I know the complete history of my people. If you never knew that there have been Eze Aro long before Britain even dreamed of entering West Africa, then I don't know what to say.

Nwa onye Igbo nwere ya ka egwu mgbede. Your understanding of history is what you've written here, and not necessary the facts . The history of Ndigbo is complicated as Ndigbo . We never developed a written language culture before the coming of westerns, otherwise we would have documented a large part of our history centuries ago. We can argue all night long here about what we think our history is or ought to be.

Seemingly but not Actually.... Mr Ben Obi

My own Town got its first King after the civil war so I agree with Ben Obi. It doesn't mean the town\villages had no govt (that is the essence of age grade in most Igbo villages) but there was no single person who had an authocratic power to command the populace.

It's our way of life, it could have its disadvantages but surely we enjoyed it and it has contributed in making an average Igbo man highly independent of "govt" supports to survive because he believes little in" govts".

On the other hand, in the current political climate, the Igbos are not different from every other tribe because the Yorubas and the Hausas currently have no single person they can say is their "King" so why the noise.

Nightshift: Nwa onye Igbo nwere ya ka egwu mgbede. Your understanding of history is what you've written here, and not necessary the facts . The history of Ndigbo is complicated as Ndigbo . We never developed a written language culture before the coming of westerns, otherwise we would have documented a large part of our history centuries ago. We can argue all night long here about what we think our history is or ought to be.

People tend to over-hype the reliability of written history. In our part of Africa, the art of storytelling is very rich and revered and is used as a means of passing down relatively accurate information. In our [Igbo] culture and in the cultures of others, stories/songs/names are used to preserve/remember events, significant deeds and people. This is why there are names such as Ahamefule/Afamefuna/Avamevukwa and it is also why in the Igbo language, the word "history" is "nto ala" (literally meaning: song of a land).

If you don't know, in every Igbo community there are people whose lives are dedicated to recounting the history of their particular community and these people are also capable of giving detailed accounts of the histories of every family in that community. Therefore, I don't see the need to doubt the reliability of a people's oral history when it has been developed to such an extent.

Furthermore, prior to the Europeans, we Igbo actually had means of recording information. In what is now Ebonyi and Abia, the Ekpe institution created guilds in which members learned to read and write using the Nsibiri script. They used this script to record significant events, keep track of debts, to relate secret information, and etc. So then, I don't see any reason to doubt the accuracy of Aro history.

odumchi:

People tend to over-hype the reliability of written history. In our part of Africa, the art of storytelling is very rich and revered and is used as a means of passing down relatively accurate information. In our [Igbo] culture and in the cultures of others, stories/songs/names are used to preserve/remember events, significant deeds and people. This is why there are names such as Ahamefule/Afamefuna/Avamevukwa and it is also why in the Igbo language, the word "history" is "nto ala" (literally meaning: song of a land).

If you don't know, in every Igbo community there are people whose lives are dedicated to recounting the history of their particular community and these people are also capable of giving detailed accounts of the histories of every family in that community. Therefore, I don't see the need to doubt the reliability of a people's oral history when it has been developed to such an extent.

Furthermore, prior to the Europeans, we Igbo actually had means of recording information. In what is now Ebonyi and Abia, the Ekpe institution created guilds in which members learned to read and write using the Nsibiri script. They used this script to record significant events, keep track of debts, to relate secret information, and etc. So then, I don't see any reason to doubt the accuracy of Aro history.

If this is the case surely There must be some reference documents,though my understanding is that script was very elementary and actually developed in Akwa Ibom or Cross River