striktlymi: Good evening all,

I have given this some thought and frankly, I said a prayer too because if we get this wrong, we might just be endorsing a wrong if incorrect. I will suggest we go through the scripture reference below prayerfully.

Matthew 15:16-19 (KJV)

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

We can see that fornication and Adultery were put side by side by Jesus himself when he was trying to explain a parable to the Apostles. Jesus taught that those things e.g fornication and adultery make a man unclean. The fact that fornication is sinful is not in question from the above. The questions however are:
a) what is fornication? b) what is adultery?

I do not think that fornication and adultery have the same meaning. If they do then Jesus will just be repeating himself and I do not subscribe to Okey's definition or explanation also.

Let's think about this and allow the spirit guide us.

#this really is the problem with personal interpretations.

All of them na sex outside marriage sha.

@okeyzx

Thanks for your response. But I still have one more . I will like you to throw light the highlighted part .

[color=#990000[b]]1 Timothy 5:2[/b]
The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with[b] all purity[/b].[/color]

If sexual relationship by consent is no sin. What would Paul be referring to as purity. Purity from what ?

Thanks

@okeyxyz

Thanks for your response. But I still have one more . I will like you to throw light the highlighted part .

1 Timothy 5:2
The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity

If sexual relationship by consent is no sin. What would Paul be referring to as purity. Purity from what ?

Thanks

Bélla3: ISHILOVE, shei you follow me see all these HERESY AND FALLACY?

Heresy and fallacy is an understatement.

striktlymi:
Okey you just committed the fallacy of distraction. That is, you have failed to prove the conclusion with irrelevant evidence, like emotion.

What has Catholicism got to do with defining fornication in line with sacred scriptures?

If you want to start bashing instead of focusing on the discuss then let me know and I will gladly leave this thread.

I'm simply saying that the definition we use today is a carry-on from catholic traditions. I honestly don't see how that can be considered as offensive as you seem to be. I'm just disagreeing with that definition. But then, that's me and my opinion, So I apologize if I come across as "bashing"..

Tgirl4real:

This is a hard nut to crack o. Somehow, I can't discard this completely, hence I will look into it further.

Are u saying Paul picks any sister that catches his fancy when he feels the need to have s.ex?

It's hard to accept, but Yes!! That's what I'm saying...

If I may ask...what did Jesus n Paul meant by Enuchs?

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."(Matthew 19:12 )

Jesus defined three categories of eunuchs. Some are born impotent, some are castrated and the third category are those who choose not to marry. They chose not to marry for the gospel's sake. It doesn't mean they were not having s.ex but that they did not invest in marriage(being a human tradition). Again check your bible dictionary and you will find these three definitions of eunuchs that I'd stated. The original(I believe) is the third category(abstaining from marriage), the others where inferred due to usage of language.

Goshen360:

Noooooo, I want you in this thread. I said that and I gave reason - you're saying because the two words were used together again like that of the words of Jesus Christ. And I said, don't dance around words simply because they're used side-by-side. That is not too big to offend you my brother. Except you made up your mind to leave anyway, I can't force you though. But I don't want you to leave.

Brother Goshen,

To be sincere I was upset! It's really not about the choice of words or the suspected 'bashing' from Okey. My concern is that a matter this serious is seemingly not given the importance it deserves. For Okey to start bringing up the ish about the Catholic church stand to undermine the discuss because instead of we looking at the facts, we would be more inclined to think about the individual bringing them.

This is something I have seen happen in other threads and for it to surface here when a matter of this importance is been discussed was a little too much. When we discuss, let's keep denomination aside and face the ish. What we say here will go a long way in affecting someone's attitude about fornication tomorrow. When eventually I get married I wouldn't want to teach my children that pre-marital s*x is okay only to find out later that I was wrong when the damage has been done.

I apologize if I made the thread a bit awkward for everyone, this was not my intent. Though our conclusion in the final analysis might defer but let's try and give it the seriousness it deserves.

Thank you!

@ striktlymi,

Okay my brother. I was also cautioned by brother Snowwy not to call people 'religious'. I'd taken to that. We'll keep this thread peaceful henceforth. As you can see, brother okeyxyz had also apologized. Hence, there will not be any forms of name calling or sort of. I'm interested in this topic because it shocked my knowledge since I've carried the same meaning to 'fornication' all my Christian life only to find out otherwise. When I read and come across the word 'fornication' in the Bible, I don't even bother to examine the meaning because I was taught it means s.ex between unmarried people. I'll advice you do same word study and let's have your view.

moredendisc: @Goshen360

.

Goshen360:

Yes, goshen360@xxxxxxxxx

Write now please. I have to modify now.

I am telling you, you already have mail

- Check your mail box

abeggy throwe that panadol panadull, go for panasharp jor

^
Okay. Stepping out now. I will chat you online via email.

Joagbaje: @okeyxyz

Thanks for your response. But I still have one more . I will like you to throw light the highlighted part .

1 Timothy 5:2
The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity

If sexual relationship by consent is no sin. What would Paul be referring to as purity. Purity from what ?

Thanks

Purity has nothing to do with abstaining from s.ex. If at all it refers to s.ex, then it means s.ex that is pure\uncorrupted. Abstinence from s.ex is a carry-over from catholic traditions which has become the western definition for "chastity". This is just us filtering-in our our values when we read and translate these texts. Purity simply means cleanliness\sinlessness, in other words, we should practice the god-nature which is sinless, the nature without a conscience of the law and human traditions. Only The Law\human traditions are corruptible.

See the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chastity for a history of how we define purity\chastity today, which of course is based on traditions.

Sex between legally married couples is purity. When you do it outside marriage then that is a sin. Sex is a spirit,its something sacred that's why you'll always want more.

@All, I will like us to re-visit this bit of scripture again please:


1 Corinthians 7:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

It is important we get a proper understanding of this passage.

I am of the opinion that St. Paul brought out some very important lessons which should help with our understanding of what fornication is. We can see from the above that St. Paul was quite worried about the unmarried* people in his community i.e *those who are yet to marry and those who are widowed.

For St Paul he would have preferred that they be like him (unmarried and free from s*x). My opinion is based on the above passage: For St. Paul was concerned about the ability of the unmarried* to 'contain' themselves (which implies self control). If they were to 'abide' like St Paul it would mean a decision to be Eunuchs for the sake of God's kingdom.

We should understand that being a Eunuch for the sake of God's kingdom does not imply that one can have s*x by the side without getting married. This St. Paul alluded to when he expressed his concern about the ability of the unmarried* to 'abide' and 'contain' themselves. Now if St. Paul believes that it is okay for them to have s*x without getting married (I am referring to s*x between those who are unmarried now) he wouldn't have been bothered about their ability to 'contain' themselves. If there is s*x by the side why bother about 'containment'?

His concern implies that s*x before marriage is not right. My conclusion is drawn from the advice of St. Paul. He told them if they 'burn' and cannot 'contain' then it is appropriate for them to get married. Again the question can be asked: Why marry when you have someone you can have s*x with each time you 'burn'? The simple conclusion here is that pre-marital s*x is not proper irrespective of who you have it with. Instead of allowing yourself to 'burn' and commit sin because you cannot 'contain' then it's better to get married.

Thank you!

Wow I can see this thread jumping for the rocks with false doctrine. I have noticed that we have moved from defining sin to defining the meaning of words. The question is not whether fornication means sex between the unmarried, the question is whether sex between the unmarried is sin?
Whether we name it "fornication" or "adultery" or whatever have you, it is the act that is in question and not the word used to describe it.

@Goshen and Okeyxyz, Let us settle this once and for all.

Is sex between two unmarried people a sin? Yes or No?

Mr_Anony: Wow I can see this thread jumping for the rocks with false doctrine. I have noticed that we have moved from defining sin to defining the meaning of words. The question is not whether fornication means sex between the unmarried, the question is whether sex between the unmarried is sin?
Whether we name it "fornication" or "adultery" or whatever have you, it is the act that is in question and not the word used to describe it.

@Goshen and Okeyxyz, Let us settle this once and for all.

Is sex between two unmarried people a sin? Yes or No?

@Bold, I agree with you!

@All,

i believe the following link will help out with the elusive definition of fornication: 1) http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/fornication.html 2) http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6238-fornication




May God bless his words in our hearts!

I'm sorry if I sound blunt but....

I really do not give a blind monkey what the literal meaning of fornication or adultery is. I don't need a concordance to understand what pleases or displeases God. Jeez what is all this back and forth discussion on fornication and adultery being side to side in one verse? Again this is not about religious teachings or what not. I stress it again its not about the do's and dont's - Christ did away with the law. Go after relationship- love God then you would begin to understand what pleases and displeases him. What is the purpose of this discussion to inform, confuse or mislead?

The question is- why is sex sin? No it's not if it is in the context in which it was created for- marriage. Pre marital sex, fornication, adultery, homosexuality and ever other form of immorality is sin because it is disobedience against God. Shikena.

Don't focus on the sin or the several do's and dont's focus more on Jesus and the renewing of your mind. No amount of understanding of the definition of fornication can prevent you from falling. We tend to head in the direction of what we focus on- if you focus on not sinning you would continue to sin and sin takes you farther away from God who should have been your initial and continuous focus. Heb 12:2

Goshen360:

Okay brother. You know I will always apologize for any misuse of words in the course of our discussion. I'm sorry for the 'religious' name calling. Well, I'm NOT sanctioning illicit se.x here - let that be very clear. I'm only saying NOWHERE does the meaning of 'fornication' in ANY CONTEXTUAL usage mean s.ex between unmarried people. All I expected you to do is, take a little time like 2-3 hours. If you have Strong's concordance and look up every occurrence of the word 'fornication' and then come back to tell us what you found out.

Here is Online Bible Strong's concordance and dictionary: http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm

Get all the usage and see if fornication means s.ex between two unmarried people. Again, an unmarried person can commit sexual immorality - that's if it involves illicit or unlawful s.ex perhaps involving prosti.tution and harlot. etc

@Goshen,
I DO NOT need Strongs concordance to define fornication to me because NOWHERE does God condone sex outside the sanctity of marriage for the Church. NOWHERE!
We are talking about sex outside marriage as sin, you are stuck on the word fornication and your previous beliefs on it.

All your semantics on fornication is based on Strongs, meanwhile the Spirit and the Word has said to AVOID FORNICATION, let everyone have their own spouse and if you cannot contain your sexual urges, MARRY O! rather than burn with passion. I really do not know what else you want.

How you can say sex outside marriage is OK as long as its not with a prostitute beats me!
You are walking on the high road and it is sad to watch.

@Mr Anony, Goshen and okeyxyz have settled it within themselves already

Snowwy: @OP and all,
I will like to get this straight because all I have read so far does not in anyway explain if sex outside marriage is a sin or not:

1. Is sex between two unmarried consenting adults a sin?

okeyxyz:
Simply NO!!

Snowwy:
Really?
Goshen, do you agree with this?

Goshen360:
To answer your question, YES, I agree to okeyxyz's answer except for the definition of 'fornication' as seen - if there's consented s.ex between an unmarried and a married or unmarried prosti.tute (because prosti.tution is illicit), it is a sin; otherwise, NO, not a sin.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery. - Matthew 5:32

Okay, to ALL OF YOU guys saying fornication means s.ex between UNMARRIED people. Following the words of Christ in KJV from the above verse, how can a MARRIED WIFE or WOMAN IN THIS VERSE ABOVE STILL COMMIT FORNICATION if your definition of fornication means s.ex between UNMARRIED? Jesus made this statement o, not me o.

Anyone care to answer? I wan go sleeping now, make una make sure una answer this kweshion before son of man wake up o.

Goshen360: King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery. - Matthew 5:32

Okay, you guys say fornication is s.ex between UNMARRIED people. Following the words of Christ in KJV from the above verse, how can a MARRIED WIFE IN THIS VERSE ABOVE STILL COMMIT FORNICATION if your definition of fornication means s.ex between UNMARRIED? Jesus made this statement, not me.

Anyone care to answer?

This is why you will remain backwards Sex is meant for balancing the hormones in the body. Every man produced ton of sperm cells everyday. They have to leave the body one way or the other. As a result of that you are here. If you god dont like it,he can go to hell!

Phuck the bible's opinion !

Goshen360: King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery. - Matthew 5:32

Okay, to ALL OF YOU guys saying fornication means s.ex between UNMARRIED people. Following the words of Christ in KJV from the above verse, how can a MARRIED WIFE or WOMAN IN THIS VERSE ABOVE STILL COMMIT FORNICATION if your definition of fornication means s.ex between UNMARRIED? Jesus made this statement o, not me o.

Anyone care to answer?

Fornication

Hebrew: zanah / Greek: porneia

Voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other is a common type of fornication. Adultery is a type of fornication.

“The Greek word for ‘fornication’ (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, ‘fornication’ can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals."

I believe this is quite an interesting topic that i always knew it will come up someday because of the comments i have been noticing on Nairaland on the matter. The answer to the question is traditionally so obvious but it is like it is not satisfactory ant more...hence the OP asks about WHY COULD HAVING SEXUA.L RELATIONS WITH SOMEONE YOU LOVE OR DESIRE WRONG?

The truth is that we dont "need" the scriptures to know is right or wrong...for the scriptures says the law is written in our hearts...those where actually the words of Christ.

True religiosity is not built on ethical consistency, thus starting from morals can take you off the point and tragically too, which is the experience of freedom being the consequence encountering the Truth about yourself and about the meaning of life and living.

If you have not begun the existential enquiry about yourself, about the deepest desires and needs of your heart, about the meaning of your restlessness, about why nothing cant satisfy you.....ethics and "morality" won't help as such.

If you start you will begin to see what everything is and means clearly! You will know how to use it (se.x inclusive) for your own benefit and you will be very happy and thankful for everything!

S.ex is basically a unifying act by which one person gives himself/herself whole and entire to the other unconditionally and totally; it is like a repetition of the "I do" they said on their wedding. Pre-marital sex.ual is a repetition of nothing.....it is conditional self-giving which goes against the demand of human sex.ual motives...to be cont... batt is runing low

Good morning Ifeness,

I really am not not bothered about your posts cause you have made your motive for anything God related very clear.

I only wonder what the motives of those who call themselves christians are. This is where the real danger is.

It is one thing to fight a battle where the enemy is known and another to fight one that comes under the guise of friendship.

Thank you!

Joagbage: @ Okeyxyz

What can you say about this scripture

1 Corinne 7:2
Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

In the statement above, the word "own" means that there must have been at least one married woman or man being shared by a group of people, and Paul was simply telling them not to share husbands or wives anymore, but to have their own wife/husband instead.


What is the difference between these statements?

I) Imagine if we had our own fire service.
This statement implies that they had at one time or the other shared a fire service, and are now simply wishing for their own fire service.

2)Imagine if we had a fire service.
This statement implies that they had never had a fire service. They are just simply wishing for a fire service be it theirs or some other fire service.

I) Imagine if we had our own house to live in.
This statement implies that they are at least living in a house, even though it does not belong to them, and are wanting to live in a house that now belongs to them.

2)Imagine if we had a house to live in.
This statement implies that they are living out in the open, under a bridge etc, but definitely not in a house, be it theirs or some other person's, and are simply wishing for a house to live in, does not matter if the house belongs to them or some other person.

For those that still do not get the point, substitute wife or husband for the fire service or house.

It is quite sad that sacred scriptures has been reduced to a mere Language text book. What make us different then from those who have reduced it to a science fiction novel? Or those who have put it in the same level as a Geography text in other to discredit it? Or what about those who are bent on discrediting it by comparing it with some books on science?

The sooner we learn that the authors of sacred scriptures did not set out to write a language book, Geography text and what have you, the sooner we will start deriving meaning from our study of sacred scriptures.


May God help us all!

striktlymi: It is quite sad that sacred scriptures has been reduced to a mere Language text book. What make us different then from those who have reduced it to a science fiction novel? Or those who have put it in the same level as a Geography text in other to discredit it? Or what about those who are bent on discrediting it by comparing it with some books on science?

The sooner we learn that the authors of sacred scriptures did not set out to write a language book, Geography text and what have you, the sooner we will start deriving meaning from our study of sacred scriptures.


May God help us all!

I think the best option is to look for the meaning of the original words which are in greek or hebrew and take it from there, but I do not think this will work with christians, as they are the most stubborn and close minded people I have ever had the misfortune to meet.

But how come Joseph didn't have sex with mary before marriage

As for me I do not see how sex between two consenting unmarried people can be wrong. Who are they hurting? Themselves?