There is obvious division on many many many many things among various people professing to be Christians!

This leads to all sorts of questions about the Christian Church. It also leads to people challenging the claim of "Christians" that they have the Holy Spirit to lead them.

Serious as these accusations and challenges may appear, there is a simple straightforward way to trust in the infallibility of the Christian Church and in the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The Church is infallible in that even before its Founder departed this earth the Church had already taught and given the fundamental things that a Christian needs ---- infallibly.


A. The Faith and The Trust: The WHO?.

1. The Founder and Head of the Church said: "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die" (John 11:25)

2. The people that the Founder and Head of the Church chose to cement the establishment of the Church said: "In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind." (John 1:4)


B. The Response: What to do?

1. The Founder and Head of the Church said: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37 etc etc; Edited)

2. The people that the Founder and Head of the Church chose to cement the establishment of the Church said: "And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister." (1 John 4:21)


Those are the fundamental things. Those have been taught to us by the Church and its Head and Founder ---- infallibly

Other things are really, in the final analysis, secondary; these things are the true sources of Christian Unity in the very final analysis. They are what defines Christian unity; they are things Christians can hold to in order to defy "the world" when they say Christians are not "united".


C. The Holy Spirit: Leading and Teaching

1. The first thing: Christians are required to submit to the Holy Spirit; in any event the Head and Founder Himself said He would be sending the Holy Spirit; therefore Christians should no longer need anyone else to teach them to submit to the Holy Spirit.

2. The Head and Founder said: "the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26)

3. So Christians are to (a)submit to the Holy Spirit, and (b) let the Holy Spirit remind them of what the Head and Founder of the Church said/taught.

4. Well, it is precisely because we do not do this last (3) at all, or well, or well enough that we fall into all sorts of difficulty.

Why don't we put Jesus Christ Himself to the test? Anytime, we have questions of faith and/conduct, why don't we start by saying "Holy Spirit, please remind me what Jesus said"!

In fact the best way to do it is by conduct; when we do it by conduct we put both Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit to an even greater challenge! Why, because we expect them to teach us even without us asking expressly!

But how do we do this?

We can do this by adapting and reusing constantly the WWJD ('What would Jesus do'?) into something more biblically accurate!

We constantly ask ourselves: What Did Jesus Say?

That way, we will be putting to the test the promise that the Holy Spirit will remind us what Jesus said/taught.

We may face the challenge "but Jesus did not say anything about xyz topic"! Well, in what he said about Himself and about our responsibility of love to God and to brothers/sisters, we can distill principles to guide our approach to things that were not discussed expressly. Even though we may get things wrong, our starting point should always be "to be conformed to the mind of Jesus".

Finally, I find this hymn in the tune I have always wanted i.e 'Shipston' (by RVW, affectionately aka 'fat Ralph'); BUT Sod's law says that the very verse that I wanted is the one the Choir skipped! Anyway that verse is the bolded below.

Firmly I believe and truly
God is Three, and God is One;
And I next acknowledge duly
Manhood taken by the Son.

And I trust and hope most fully
In that Manhood crucified;
And each thought and deed unruly
Do to death, as He has died.

Simply to His grace and wholly
Light and life and strength belong,
And I love supremely, solely,
Him the holy, Him the strong.

And I hold in veneration,
For the love of Him alone,
Holy Church as His creation,
And her teachings are as His own.

. . . .

Adoration aye be given,
With and through the angelic host,
To the God of earth and Heaven,
Father, Son and Holy Ghost.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESKkgR16VZc

Nice article from my big brother. Thank you and God bless.

Good article buddy.

will add a few 'soft' comments later on .

Ah, let's hope this works today! The Pyguru thing sent me to the coolers for 24 hours when I tried to post this yesterday.

Having finally found the hymn "Firmly I Believe and Truly" in the preferred tune of 'Shipston', by Sod's Law it turns out that the very verse I wanted is the one the Choir performing below chose to skip!

Anyway, here is the [missing] verse:

"And I hold in veneration
For the love of Him alone
Holy Church as His creation
And her teachings as His own"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESKkgR16VZc

Enigma:
C. The Holy Spirit: Leading and Teaching

1. The first thing: Christians are required to submit to the Holy Spirit; in any event the Head and Founder Himself said He would be sending the Holy Spirit; t[b]herefore Christians should no longer need anyone else to teach them to submit to the Holy Spirit.[/b]

But Bros, you know pastors are always coming up with something new, what happens to those that cannot read (depend on others including pastor to feed them)? i mean all they know is what been taught (probably by pastor). How will the Holy Spirit influence this?

Zikkyy:

But Bros, you know pastors are always coming up with something new, what happens to those that cannot read (depend on others including pastor to feed them)? i mean all they know is what been taught (probably by pastor). How will the Holy Spirit influence this?

I understand where you are coming from and my post actually anticipated this. However, your question actually combines a number of things which though related are different slightly or differentiable.

1. How about those who cannot read?

It is not a problem as big as might be thought. Even those who can read might not necessarily understand. Let us take the example of the Ethiopean eunuch and look at his case from two perspectives: (a) initially he could read but did not even understand what he was reading; (b) but after he was taught the gospel by Philip ---- who was going to teach him other things? Did he have the New Testament, which were not (mostly at least) even written yet?

2. How about people being fed by pastors?

Let us start with the apostle John. Why would he say the below?

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

You see, it still boils down to each individual listening to what Jesus said and letting the Holy Spirit remind oneself of what Jesus taught. However, we come back to how to know what Jesus ---- but look at the basic things that I focused upon: (1) Jesus is the Way of Life and (2) We respond by trusting him and following the teaching love God and love neighbour. Before I go on, is that something that any Church no matter that they may be in error on other things will have difficulty to teach ----- even to an illiterate?

Now if we are taught those two things {Jesus is the way; we respond by loving God and neighbour); and if we remind ourselves to follow them e.g. anything we want to do we say is this loving of God and neighbour ----- then we will be yielding to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that "churches" like to go on teaching all kinds of sometimes fanciful stuff (and good stuff too admittedly) but really it is important that the church focus on the gospel, the central message ---- and to use what really I find difficult to acknowledge as a cliche --- the Cross.

Enigma:
You see, it still boils down to each individual listening to what Jesus said and letting the Holy Spirit remind oneself of what Jesus taught. However, we come back to how to know what Jesus ---- but look at the basic things that I focused upon: (1) Jesus is the Way of Life and (2) We respond by trusting him and following the teaching love God and love neighbour. Before I go on, is that something that any Church no matter that they may be in error on other things will have difficulty to teach ----- even to an illiterate?

Now if we are taught those two things {Jesus is the way; we respond by loving God and neighbour); and if we remind ourselves to follow them e.g. anything we want to do we say is this loving of God and neighbour ----- then we will be yielding to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

But Bros you know say love don take back seat for church. not when you have P.I.M.P.s and idol worshippers on the pulpit if it was all about love, fallibility would not be an issue.

Enigma:
The problem is that "churches" like to go on teaching all kinds of sometimes fanciful stuff (and good stuff too admittedly) but really it is important that the church focus on the gospel, the central message ---- and to use what really I find difficult to acknowledge as a cliche --- the Cross.

Now you are talking. This is the koko of the matter. Its the fanciful stuff we are talking about i think the whole infallibility talk is all about who is infallible and who is fallible when it comes to teaching fanciful stuff

Enigma:

I understand where you are coming from and my post actually anticipated this. However, your question actually combines a number of things which though related are different slightly or differentiable.

1. How about those who cannot read?

It is not a problem as big as might be thought. Even those who can read might not necessarily understand. Let us take the example of the Ethiopean eunuch and look at his case from two perspectives: (a) initially he could read but did not even understand what he was reading; (b) but after he was taught the gospel by Philip ---- who was going to teach him other things? Did he have the New Testament, which were not (mostly at least) even written yet?

2. How about people being fed by pastors?

Let us start with the apostle John. Why would he say the below?



You see, it still boils down to each individual listening to what Jesus said and letting the Holy Spirit remind oneself of what Jesus taught. However, we come back to how to know what Jesus ---- but look at the basic things that I focused upon: (1) Jesus is the Way of Life and (2) We respond by trusting him and following the teaching love God and love neighbour. Before I go on, is that something that any Church no matter that they may be in error on other things will have difficulty to teach ----- even to an illiterate?

Now if we are taught those two things {Jesus is the way; we respond by loving God and neighbour); and if we remind ourselves to follow them e.g. anything we want to do we say is this loving of God and neighbour ----- then we will be yielding to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that "churches" like to go on teaching all kinds of sometimes fanciful stuff (and good stuff too admittedly) but really it is important that the church focus on the gospel, the central message ---- and to use what really I find difficult to acknowledge as a cliche --- the Cross.

Thank you, big bro. This is a tremendous help to me.

I've been trying to deal with some trouble by myself but it may be finally getting the better of me. I'll try to rally myself to email you on it. Are you disposed to that?

@Enigma
Great write-up bro!!

Thanks, guys.

There are several promises made that we perhaps do not grasp fully. As one song says: "a thousand promises declare thy constancy of love."

Look at this promise in Rev 3:20 -- "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."



_{@Ihe bros, I've been behind on dealing with some emails lately but I'm almost back up to speed; feel free anytime though.}

Enigma:

Now if we are taught those two things {Jesus is the way; we respond by loving God and neighbour); and if we remind ourselves to follow them e.g. anything we want to do we say is this loving of God and neighbour ----- then we will be yielding to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The problem is that "churches" like to go on teaching all kinds of sometimes fanciful stuff (and good stuff too admittedly) but really it is important that the church focus on the gospel, the central message ---- and to use what really I find difficult to acknowledge as a cliche --- the Cross.

Infact I believe in the above so strongly...that for a season in my walk (and to a large extent I'm still in that season), I chose to deliberately stay away from the 'fanciful' stuff as you put it and simply focus on ¹loving God ² loving my neighbor as myself and understanding the great great power & mystery of those two very simple, very universal yet very difficult to practice concepts. I also believe quite strongly that the increase or acquisition of 'knowledge' of the 'fanciful' variety is not necessarily a good thing...it can become a distraction, it can muddle and cloud up otherwise simple, basic issues. It can puff up the heart and cause a case of spiritual superiority complex.

As Enigma said, people have lived & served God without the aid of a bible or scripture. There's a lot to be said on the power of the Holy Spirit that is the surest witness any Christian will ever need. May God continue to guide His saints according to His good and perfect will. Amen!

^^^ You know, I totally agree. The Scriptures say that knowledge puffs up or makes proud but charity or love edifies. It's so easy to get away from Love which is all the Cross is about.

I understand how all that high-sounding stuff judt muddles up everything and leaves the believer in a serious funk. I think that it's why I've been in one myself for some time now and your insight just helped me realize that. The truth is that once we get down to how this or that is love for God and love for neighbor we're home.

No mystery of the Kingdom is so great that it gets away from Love. All the wonderful mysteries of the ages are rooted and built up in love. It's a wonderful thing for me to dwell on right now.

And the Scriptures ask how we know that we love God and responds that it is by our love for the brethren. So, it is impossible to claim that a thing is done out of love for God when it is not done out of love for the brethren as well. I think that's a safeguard for those of our number who are prone to mysticism. Love is very practical.

The problem for me right now is when one is certain that God is leading them in a particular direction with their lives and their obedience is prone to cost those they say that they love something. How can the believer in such a situation be sure that it is indeed the Lord when his obedience might be costly to other people whom he owes a debt of love?

If we are to put the OP into practise, we would see it crumbling bit by bit. That's not to say it is totally wrong. There there is a lot in it that is correct, but a lot is so ambiguous and inaccurate.

In John 6:35, Jesus declares: "I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE."

Some believe, in that passage, he was talking about "holy communion, which is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ."

Others believe, he was talking about "holy communion, but it is only a SYMBOL of the body and blood of Christ.

And yet, there are those who believe he was merely talking about "BELIEVING in him."

What does your "infallible Church" teach?

And what does the Holy Spirit teach you?

What answer do you get when you use your WWJD or WDJS method?

Dont say this is not a fundamental matter because Jesus said in verses 53 & 54: "53 Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." Surely a matter that concerns salvation or damnation has to be fundamental to us Christians.

The above is an implicit example of the "fanciful stuff" we are talking about that causes divisions. And let me point out to others that the post is in my view a not even too subtle attempt to push the "doctrine" of a particular denomination.

Anyway: the thief at the right hand on the cross ate the flesh of Jesus and drank his blood ----- and that is why he ended up in Paradise.

Meanwhile, on Jesus as literal bread, how about John 6:51 --- "I am the living bread that came down from heaven".

Anyway this thread is about the infallibility of The Christian Church not the "infallibility" claimed by any particular denomination.

Ihedinobi: ^^^ You know, I totally agree. The Scriptures say that knowledge puffs up or makes proud but charity or love edifies. It's so easy to get away from Love which is all the Cross is about.

I understand how all that high-sounding stuff judt muddles up everything and leaves the believer in a serious funk. I think that it's why I've been in one myself for some time now and your insight just helped me realize that. The truth is that once we get down to how this or that is love for God and love for neighbor we're home.

No mystery of the Kingdom is so great that it gets away from Love. All the wonderful mysteries of the ages are rooted and built up in love. It's a wonderful thing for me to dwell on right now.

And the Scriptures ask how we know that we love God and responds that it is by our love for the brethren. So, it is impossible to claim that a thing is done out of love for God when it is not done out of love for the brethren as well. I think that's a safeguard for those of our number who are prone to mysticism. Love is very practical.

The problem for me right now is when one is certain that God is leading them in a particular direction with their lives and their obedience is prone to cost those they say that they love something. How can the believer in such a situation be sure that it is indeed the Lord when his obedience might be costly to other people whom he owes a debt of love?

First of all, if God leads and one's actions will cost oneself or others --- my own answer would be Amen! In other words, "so be it". Even Jesus' words/actions sometimes cost others (or would cost others); to one fellow, 'go and sell all you have'; on another occasion 'he who forsakes family' etc. In the Old Testament about the direction to Hosea?

The critical thing is to be sure that one is truly following God's leading. What the Bible instructs repeatedly is for us to keep checking ourselves repeatedly e.g. 'be filled with the Holy Spirit' which scholars tell us that from the original language is more accurately translated as keep on being filled . . . .

^^ Thanks bro.

Enjoy you thread with your followers.

Any member of The Christian Church is welcomed to contribute; the thread is not about denominations.

Enigma: The critical thing is to be sure that one is truly following God's leading. What the Bible instructs repeatedly is for us to keep checking ourselves repeatedly e.g. 'be filled with the Holy Spirit' which scholars tell us that from the original language is more accurately translated as keep on being filled . . . .

I should have asked this earlier, bro. But, about the part I put in bold, how do you think one can be sure that they're following the Lord in a given move? I asked that first question because I've always been plagued with the concern that how a given thing you think the Lord is leading you into affects the people you love and owe responsibility of some sort to might actually help you recognize whether it is indeed the Lord Who is leading you. Past experience is one reason that it concerns me.

For me, "do I see love at play here?" didn't quite help because, well, what I understood about love confused me in some of the decisions I had to make. For instance, Jesus said that it is not right for a son or daughter to take something they owe to their parents as the obligation of a child and offer to God and explain to them that it was Corban.

I can read into that the child's avoidance of responsibility but is it actually impossible that God should call a child of His in a direction which, perhaps for a period of time, will cost the parents of that child some obligation he owes to them if he/she obeys, for instance?

On the other hand, the consideration, 'what would Jesus do?' used to stump me because it only said that He would obey the Father but my trouble would be 'well, what is the Father saying even?' How do we know where the Lord is leading?

The principle I worked with for a long time was the Cross. And I still do but then these days, my current understanding of it is not good enough to deal with the questions I'm faced with. In the past, it was simply, 'does God have a right to do with me whatever He pleases? Regardless whose interests are upset whether only in the short term or in the long term?' And my answer was always 'yes, He does'. And based on that answer, I would pursue any course of action that my unserstanding of the Scriptures advised trusting the Lord to correct me where I went wrong.

But, the cost of that path has been incredibly high and I'm extraordinarily prone to regret these days. And I think that state of things is affecting my ability to receive guidance from the Lord negatively.

So, ordinarily, how have you known that the Lord is leading you?

The other part of continuing to be filled with the Holy Spirit is also not very easy for me to understand.

Bros, as you have realised you are touching on something a little complex. At the same time, I would say it is a reminder to us to always remember the complementary nature of Scripture and how apparent disharmony usually ultimately has a harmonious explanation --- even if we don't know it immediately or presently.

It is true that Jesus said we should not use the "Corban" excuse to avoid responsibility (specifically to parents). However, Jesus Himself pursued a course that led to his own "loss" to His parents. Even before His death, He was told on one occasion: 'your mother and brothers are looking for you'. One might think His answer dismissive of his mother and brothers --- if not putting things in proper context.

We must always be mindful of our responsibilities. Talking about harmony, the Scriptures also say that one who does not look after his family is hardly better than an infidel! The balance is that when necessity or the certain and known will of God places us on a course which means we may cause pain, we do the best to explain and to minimise the suffering. But if we are sure a particular course is God's will, we must do what we have to do.

Take even merely secular desires: an only child lives at home with his parents; they are poor; they love him so much; an opportunity arises for him to leave home and go some distance where he will only be able to communicate (better nowadays even with GSM) remotely; and when he might not be back home for a year or more; but he will be earning enough to feel good about himself and to help his parents . . . . .

I'm sorry, bro, that I took things into the complex. It's actually part of what I'd wanted to email you about. I put it out here just in case somebody else may be wrestling with the issue.

I hear you, bro. And I think I understand.