Katsumoto: I have a question.

Who qualifies as Yoruba?

1. Someone whose parents are both Yoruba?

2. Someone whose father is Yoruba, mother is non-Yoruba and not raised as Yoruba

3. Someone whose mother is Yoruba, non-Yoruba father but raised as a Yoruba

4. Only those who raised in Yoruba spirituality/ Ifa traditional religion

5. Those forcefully removed as slaves but who still continue to be Ifa followers but not so fluent in Yoruba except for incantations

I could go on and on with different examples. But the central question remains - what makes one Yoruba?

Please no one person can define this, so I am only after opinions.

My opinion (I dont care for the paternal rule. That applied in the past for clan marriage. However in todays day of globalization, it is void for inter-ethnic and inter-racial marriages) :


1: Someone whose parents are both Yoruba

2: Those who raised in Yoruba spirituality/ Ifa traditional religion and who fulfill the above criteria, have a higher claim to Yoruba.

Katsumoto: I have a question.

Who qualifies as Yoruba?...

I could go on and on with different examples. But the central question remains - what makes one Yoruba?

Please no one person can define this, so I am only after opinions.

Being Yoruba has to be about a way of life and set of beliefs more than anything else, even above ancestry. Remember that all humans are essentially the same, and the differences we see are the result of acculturation. Hence you may meet a Yoruba man by ancestry and name who feels more Hausa eg many Ilorin politicians, and you may run into the German woman by ancestry who immigrates to Yoruba land and becomes every bit Yoruba eg Suzanne Wenger.

So I think I could rank your options in order of importance, rather than choosing some over the other. My take:

4. Only those who raised in Yoruba spirituality/ Ifa traditional religion
5. Those forcefully removed as slaves but who still continue to be Ifa followers but not so fluent in Yoruba except for incantations

To me, both of these are the same. They both involve wilful action to do what it takes to be Yoruba

1. Someone whose parents are both Yoruba?

I place will above "genetic lottery". You have no say about what you get born into, so while birth to Yoruba parents is the standard, I wouldnt go crazy with it. Can we really call the British-Nigerian that beheaded someone in Britain Yoruba? Hard to say - I would even suggest that some Nupe folks are even more Yoruba than he is

2. Someone whose father is Yoruba, mother is non-Yoruba and not raised as Yoruba
3. Someone whose mother is Yoruba, non-Yoruba father but raised as a Yoruba

I think even this option leaves things open. You can choose to take your Yoruba side, or not to do so. I doubt most Yoruba gropus would quibble with you over mom/dad issues if you are exhibiting the omoluwabi traits. We are open minded like that.

macof:

U are not Yoruba you cannot understand the Ife traditions and the stories of ancient Ife people

Thanks macof, the truth is too bitter. If you are familiar with Yoruba classroom textbooks, all they teach is Lamurudu and Oduduwa from Mecca, everyone that has been to school learn that first hand, god help you if you are a muslim, it becomes an apocryphal. If you are asking how come metaphisical found mecca, it ask a question about you too, your intellect. All know the story. Aren't you familiar with the story? Then where do you come from? It's cognitive-denial if you are not working to solve a 'problem' but denies it exist. Guesswork, problem bashing and insult is called escapology. The devil is in the detail, offer your collection of stories around Ekiti or your hometown, let's see. I am Yoruba and that's my "iponri", I'm just curious about you, can you feed us your oriki? That is a litmus test no 1. 9jacrip is from Ife, but never drop Ife in every single sentence posts. Do you?

@Birdman, you make an excellent analysis. Thanks.

ladionline: Thanks macof, the truth is too bitter. If you are familiar with Yoruba classroom textbooks, all they teach is Lamurudu and Oduduwa from Mecca, everyone that has been to school learn that first hand, god help you if you are a muslim, it becomes an apocryphal. If you are asking how come metaphisical found mecca, it ask a question about you too, your intellect. All know the story. Aren't you familiar with the story? Then where do you come from? It's cognitive-denial if you are not working to solve a 'problem' but denies it exist. Guesswork, problem bashing and insult is called escapology. The devil is in the detail, offer your collection of stories around Ekiti or your hometown, let's see. I am Yoruba and that's my "iponri", I'm just curious about you, can you feed us your oriki? That is a litmus test no 1. 9jacrip is from Ife, but never drop Ife in every single sentence posts. Do you?

The bold is wat u are best at

macof:


this guy is has a problem.

Wats my business wit ur fathers house? Do I know u? and did I say am speaking for anybody? It's ur business if u believe Yoruba(in general) or Oyo came from Mecca, but don't use this to deceive people, there's no single truth in it.

I have no Man as a mentor,

"Basic Yoruba history as taught in primary skool" of course that's where ur knowledge ends-primary school

Mr. man, No matter how hard u and others try to claim Mecca as Yoruba origin, you would fail.
And Yoruba didn't forget her history, most of it is embedded in Ifa, but of course prodigal sons like u have no regard for Yoruba spirituality and would forever be wrong on ur Mecca claim

Well macof, you sound like a babe and amateur. If you claim everyone know oranmiyan came from Ife, you will soon be teaching Alaafin that his long held believe on Yoruba mecca origin is a hoax. The great king will always says "you claim Johnson was wrong, but you haven't come up with anything"

macof:

The bold is wat u are best at

Thank God for that, I will work on that, I'm still growing. Please, don't evade other request I MADE IN THE POST TO DEMISTIFY YOU TOO. And now that you have shifted to Ifa, give us any piece of one in your next post and translate it for others. metaphisical should have gained momentum now. Wise one, I think I helped?

birdman:
I place will above "genetic lottery". You have no say about what you get born into, so while birth to Yoruba parents is the standard, I wouldnt go crazy with it. Can we really call the British-Nigerian that beheaded someone in Britain Yoruba? Hard to say - I would even suggest that some Nupe folks are even more Yoruba than he is

I think even this option leaves things open. You can choose to take your Yoruba side, or not to do so. I doubt most Yoruba gropus would quibble with you over mom/dad issues if you are exhibiting the omoluwabi traits. We are open minded like that.

Why are you focusing on what he did and not who he's? Are there not Yoruba's in Nigeria who were born and raised in Yoruba culture that have done things worse than whatever the guy did? Yes, he was brainwashed and he committed a barbaric act - however, how does that negate his Yoruba-ness?

Being Yoruba isn't just about learning the culture. It's inborn. It's there in your consciousness and you can't run away from it. It's an identity. So I'd say to be Yoruba, you definitely need to have Yoruba ancestry - either paternal, maternal, or both.

Interesting read. I'm not as knowledgeable as you lot, however, I would like to chip in a few things to defuse the back and forth between "9jacrip" and "metaphysical." Personally, I think both of you are right to an extent. I guess the miscommunication between the both of you has to do with semantics and getting caught up in modern names for geographical locations and people.

Firstly, when dealing with history, we have to use timeline. And when using timeline, it's necessarily to argue based on what was attainable at that point in history. I believe the disagreement has to do with "Afroasiatic"/"Afroasia" and "Arab." How about we use the real names those places were called at that point in history? The area of interest, which is the Israel/Palestine axis was part of Africa, at the point in history. Also, let take "Arab" out of the equation because there was no one called "Arab" back then. The Arab ethnicity started much later due to admixture. So Yoruba's have no connection whatsoever with Arabs. If you lot can do that, I believe the debate would be more interesting. Yes, a lot of people have posted scholastic/academic posts with references about the history of Yoruba's in Nigeria. However, anyone who has been privileged to study the history of Africa would know that the history of the Yoruba's didn't start in Nigeria. Yoruba's got to Nigeria via different migration waves. So the question would always be: where did the Yoruba's migrate from to present day Nigeria? We can just limit our scholarship to just Nigeria. Those before us set the ball rolling with that - this generation needs to take it to the next level, to enable us know who we truly are and where we've been.

The Oduduwa story has already been discarded by today's historians as a myth/folklore and it's only right that this generation takes it to the next level, by trying to solve the puzzle about the origin of the Yoruba's. I know all the written records started in the 18th, but I believe there are certain artefacts and links we can explore. I believe Ifa is one of them (still reading about it). Another thing most Yoruba people don't care about is the Oranmiyan Obelisk. The other two places with Obelisk in ancient times were Thebes (Luxor) in ancient Egypt and Axum in the ancient Kingdom of Aksum (Ethiopia) - and it represnts the sun god Ra (everywhere else you see obelisk in modern times, including churches and Washington Monument, it represents a borrowed culture). So did the first migration wave of the Yoruba's happen after the death of Akhenaten? And how about let's trace the source of the Oranmiyan Obelisk and how it found its way to Ile-Ife? Who brought it there since Obelisk in ancient times were only in two places - Thebes and Aksum?

Secondly, I don't think linguistics can be used to determine origin. I believe using genetics/haplogroup will paint a better picture. I'll argue based on what some posters asserted earlier and reference the Yoruba-Benin-Igbo link. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the connection between Yoruba's and Igbo's linguistically has to do with Igala's being between the two ethnic groups. And Igala is a Yoruboid language. Also, the two groups have lived side-by-side for a long time. Evidently, you would expect both cultures to influence each other. Genetically, using haplogroup E1b1a DNA, you would find out that, Yoruba's are more related to the Bamileke's, Mandinka's, Tutsi's and Fulani's - than they're related to Igbo's or even Edo's. However, linguistically, they're somewhat different from these other. I can do a comparative analysis to explain that. For example: France today may linguistically be a proto-romance/neo-latin country, however, that doesn't change the fact that most ethnic French people descended from the Celts, and I believe they're more related to present-day Irish/Scottish people than they're related to people from the Latin countries (Italy, Spain and Portugal). Perhaps, that's why I think using linguistics to determine origin is flawed.

Finally, I look forward to reading more intelligent posts from you guys. I'm not as knowledgeable in Yoruba history as most of you guys but I've learnt a lot from this thread. You guys need to keep the fire burning.

Shalom!

Shalom Shymexx,

Eweso Omo Alare

Thanks for chipping in, I like both of your responses, very insightful.

I dont hold grudges, I still respect 9jacrips view, even though it is diverse from my affirmation on origin.

There are many angles to the origin story and Katsumoto attempted to clarify it but I think he went overboard, in my view. He said the tradition of origin is comprehensive and founded on good authority, which is accurate.

Everyone agrees Ifa is the spirit of Yoruba nativity. Ifa text is hermeneutics and its language is far more ancient than the interactive spoken language we use in social communication.

The interpretation and meaning of the creation myth and the roles played by the principal deities and heroes is lost on us. The first written record of it in modern language occurred in 1921 and is narrated in a publication titled the Myths of Ife..dictated by Araba Ifa.

In addition to the many correspondences in ancient Yoruba and ancient Hebrew, there are as well rites, articles, customs, creeds and so on in which one finds mirrored copy between the two cultures.

The Yoruba apex philosophical mantra is "omoluabi". In Yoruba custom omoluabi is incomplete without respect and adulation to elders. This is performed physically by prostrating or kneeling.

Which other culture in the world pays homage in these acts?

These are my quests. Im not concerned about whether Yoruba is muslim or not or whether its root is in mecca or not. My probe has legs and it repeatedly walked me to AfroAsia in each of the lead i followed.

The sounds I reproduced, i dont think people are un impressed to learn that Forgive and Foriji are cognates or that Peter and Apata are correspondents.

Why do we, or I should say "I",..why do "I" need credentials in Western academics to investigate and understand the passions and inquisitions in my spirit? What is degree or specialty in language going to add to my natural gift for sound and art?

Does a carver need a degree? Yet he produces work that everybody adores.

The artists that produced Ife Bronze heads, were they credentialed?

Is Picasso or Michelangelo credentialed?

Specialties have their use and value to society, it does not interfere or required in my sphere of interests.

a wolf in sheeps clothing will still always remain a wolf and exhibit wolfish characteristics.

Blood is important.

Around 400 AD, a woman Philosopher named Hypatia was lynched for her unrelenting study of Mathematics and Astronomy - subjects that were considered blasphemous, Paganist and unconventional in Christian Alexandria, Egypt. Before she died, she had proposed several hypotheses on conic sections, many of which were suppressed (by dogmatic Christians) for over 1000 years until Johannes Kepler (1609) re-discovered and applied her hypotheses . These works were later found applicable in gravitational theories and proved useful in the prediction of celestial bodies motions. Today, it has found a wider application in satellite communication.

Why am I driving these points? Firstly, many of us seem to have dogmatic opinions about Yoruba history and origins. I'm afraid we don't want to accept any theory (or hypothesis) not validated by recent oral histories. As far as I'm concerned, more than 85% of all West-African groups came from somewhere, sometime in ancient times. Did all Yoruba groups 'suddenly' appear where they are now? Did Yoruba groups develop their language in isolation? Can we say the ancient Yoruba religion developed its nomenclature from within? Can we scientifically prove that all Yorubas have the same haplotype DNA? These are questions that need answers beyond the oral traditions we have. Actually, only private/government funded inquisition/research can help us establish the puzzles we seek to unravel. That said, I don't think Metaphysical's hypothesis should be discarded in a hurry. With time, it might even become one of the 'hail marys' of Yoruba history. We don't need to unnecessarily 'lynch' his findings and dispel them for lack of evidence(s). Knowledge is continuum, it has no beginning or end but is only subject to simplicity over time. As far as I know, Egypt and Sudan are ancient landmarks important to unraveling some of these mysteries. Thank you all...

740megawatts: Around 400 AD, a woman Philosopher named Hypatia was lynched for her unrelenting study of Mathematics and Astronomy - subjects that were considered blasphemous, Paganist and unconventional in Christian Alexandria, Egypt. Before she died, she had proposed several hypothesis on conic sections, many of which were suppressed (by dogmatic Christians) for over 1000 years until Johannes Kepler (1609) re-invented them. These works were later found applicable in gravitational theories and proved useful in the prediction of celestial bodies. Today, it has found a wider application in satellite communication.

Wow I created a thread on here a year back or so in rememberance of her in the Religious section!

shymexx: Interesting read. I'm not as knowledgeable as you lot, however, I would like to chip in a few things to defuse the back and forth between "9jacrip" and "metaphysical." Personally, I think both of you are right to an extent. I guess the miscommunication between the both of you has to do with semantics and getting caught up in modern names for geographical locations and people.

[b]Firstly, when dealing with history, we have to use timeline. And when using timeline, it's necessarily to argue based on what was attainable at that point in history. I believe the disagreement has to do with "Afroasiatic"/"Afroasia" and "Arab." [/b]How about we use the real names those places were called at that point in history? The area of interest, which is the Israel/Palestine axis was part of Africa, at the point in history. Also, let take "Arab" out of the equation because there was no one called "Arab" back then. The Arab ethnicity started much later due to admixture. So Yoruba's have no connection whatsoever with Arabs. If you lot can do that, I believe the debate would be more interesting. Yes, a lot of people have posted scholastic/academic posts with references about the history of Yoruba's in Nigeria. However, anyone who has been privileged to study the history of Africa would know that the history of the Yoruba's didn't start in Nigeria. Yoruba's got to Nigeria via different migration waves. So the question would always be: where did the Yoruba's migrate from to present day Nigeria? We can just limit our scholarship to just Nigeria. Those before us set the ball rolling with that - this generation needs to take it to the next level, to enable us know who we truly are and where we've been.

[b]The Oduduwa story has already been discarded by today's historians as a myth/folklore [/b]and it's only right that this generation takes it to the next level, by trying to solve the puzzle about the origin of the Yoruba's. I know all the written records started in the 18th, but I believe there are certain artefacts and links we can explore. I believe Ifa is one of them (still reading about it). Another thing most Yoruba people don't care about is the Oranmiyan Obelisk. The other two places with Obelisk in ancient times were Thebes (Luxor) in ancient Egypt and Axum in the ancient Kingdom of Aksum (Ethiopia) - and it represnts the sun god Ra (everywhere else you see obelisk in modern times, including churches and Washington Monument, it represents a borrowed culture). So did the first migration wave of the Yoruba's happen after the death of Akhenaten? And how about let's trace the source of the Oranmiyan Obelisk and how it found its way to Ile-Ife? Who brought it there since Obelisk in ancient times were only in two places - Thebes and Aksum?

Secondly, I don't think linguistics can be used to determine origin. I believe using genetics/haplogroup will paint a better picture. I'll argue based on what some posters asserted earlier and reference the Yoruba-Benin-Igbo link. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the connection between Yoruba's and Igbo's linguistically has to do with Igala's being between the two ethnic groups. And Igala is a Yoruboid language. Also, the two groups have lived side-by-side for a long time. Evidently, you would expect both cultures to influence each other. Genetically, using haplogroup E1b1a DNA, you would find out that, Yoruba's are more related to the Bamileke's, Mandinka's, Tutsi's and Fulani's - than they're related to Igbo's or even Edo's. However, linguistically, they're somewhat different from these other. I can do a comparative analysis to explain that. For example: France today may linguistically be a proto-romance/neo-latin country, however, that doesn't change the fact that most ethnic French people descended from the Celts, and I believe they're more related to present-day Irish/Scottish people than they're related to people from the Latin countries (Italy, Spain and Portugal). Perhaps, that's why I think using linguistics to determine origin is flawed.

Finally, I look forward to reading more intelligent posts from you guys. I'm not as knowledgeable in Yoruba history as most of you guys but I've learnt a lot from this thread. You guys need to keep the fire burning.

Shalom!

Nice write up. Just a few comments.

1. There isn't anything scientific about the Yoruba migrating from the middle east. Until such a theory is supported by evidence, we might as well speculate that the Yoruba might have migrated from China. It is safe to state that the Yoruba migrated from the Sudan-Nile axis like all other sub-saharan groups

2. No one has discarded Oduduwa as a myth. What we all agree on is that Oduduwa did not climb down a chain. There are a few like TerraCotta who believe he didn't exist but there are still Yoruba historians such as Ade-Ajayi who believe such a man existed and some of these historians hold on to the belief that he migrated from the middle-east. I believe they hold on to that because they can't prove where he really came from and won't accept he was Bini for obvious reasons.

3. You can't compare European language assimilation with that in Africa. Primarily because Europeans have spent the better part of their history conquering one another. For instance, Latin was spoken across much of Europe for close to 1500 years. The Saxons also took old english to England when they started conquering England in the 5th century. African conquests were on smaller scales and didn't last long enough for conquering languages to supplant native ones.

shymexx:

Why are you focusing on what he did and not who he's? Are there not Yoruba's in Nigeria who were born and raised in Yoruba culture that have done things worse than whatever the guy did? Yes, he was brainwashed and he committed a barbaric act - however, how does that negate his Yoruba-ness?

Being Yoruba isn't just about learning the culture. It's inborn. It's there in your consciousness and you can't run away from it. It's an identity. So I'd say to be Yoruba, you definitely need to have Yoruba ancestry - either paternal, maternal, or both.

Being Yoruba is there in the consciousness of a child of Yoruba parents but wat happens when he refuses those instincts?

Yorubanesss is not just about ancestry or bloodline, it is more of devotion and cultural inclination.

I have met many Aniocha deltans who seem like perfect Yoruba people.

I have also met a lot of so-called omo Yoruba who have said they hate being Yoruba or hate being African

Katsumoto:
3. You can't compare European language assimilation with that in Africa. Primarily because Europeans have spent the better part of their history conquering one another. For instance, Latin was spoken across much of Europe for close to 1500 years. The Saxons also took old english to England when they started conquering England in the 5th century. African conquests were on smaller scales and didn't last long enough for conquering languages to supplant native ones.

Currently watching a show based on the Saxon and Franco wars.

Quite informative

@shymexx
The Oduduwa story is not just a myth.

As I have repeatedly stated on this forum, Yoruba creation story of Oduduwa climbing down a chain is symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally

The creation story is spirituality and not history, so when u hear Oduduwa created earth and established Ile-Ife it talks about the Energies responsible for earthly matter and not a human who drops from the sky

macof: @shymexx
The Oduduwa story is not just a myth.

As I have repeatedly stated on this forum, Yoruba creation story of Oduduwa climbing down a chain is symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally

The creation story is spirituality and not history, so when u hear Oduduwa created earth and established Ile-Ife it talks about the Energies responsible for earthly matter and not a human who drops from the sky

Oh my! This is a wonderful science, I love to call it the pristinely 'authouritative obscurantism' specially discovered (or designed) to make it impossible for Oduduwa to come from anywhere. Oh I love you macof, macof! You will teach the Ooni this one, and the princes of Oduduwa will be awed. How about the assignment I gave you above? This is where you are to cite Ifa precept as proof. Never forget, you are working on traditional or historical public resource, i.e. Oduduwa, no not on Albert Einstein's idea of 'god' please.

shymexx:

Why are you focusing on what he did and not who he's? Are there not Yoruba's in Nigeria who were born and raised in Yoruba culture that have done things worse than whatever the guy did? Yes, he was brainwashed and he committed a barbaric act - however, how does that negate his Yoruba-ness?

Being Yoruba isn't just about learning the culture. It's inborn. It's there in your consciousness and you can't run away from it. It's an identity. So I'd say to be Yoruba, you definitely need to have Yoruba ancestry - either paternal, maternal, or both.

I'm not negating ancestry in any way, just that we cannot use it as an end-all-be-all litmus test. I could compare you and Adebolajo (the beheader) for example. Both of you are British Nigerians, but Adebolajo grew up in Nigeria, even went to secondary school there. By your argument, I could state that Adebolajo has a deeper expression of his "inborn" Yorubaness than you do with his cultural exposure. And yet, here you are, contributing to threads on Yoruba history, while the guy who is supposedly more "inborn" is beheading an innocent man with no remorse.

This is the danger of giving ancestry more weight than it is due. Dont get me wrong, having a Yoruba mother/father has its inherent weight, but using this to assume Yorubaness is like thinking every black person you meet in yankee or jand is automatically on your side.

Btw when you start talking about inborn, identity, consciousness, you should tread lightly. You had no conscious decision as to what you would be born into. Reminds me of the white supremacist who wanted to build an all-white town. He does a DNA test on a talk show, and finds out he is 14% black. Even though he tried to rubbish it, his fellow supremacists turned on him (this guy reminds me of pagan nja btw )

http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-white-supremacist-dna-20131112,0,7467682.story
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/21/white-supremacist-dna-test-neo-nazi-north-dakota-town/3661791/

Sir, I'll reply your post and kats' post in the morning.

Thanks for the reply, anyway.

740megawatts: Around 400 AD, a woman Philosopher named Hypatia was lynched for her unrelenting study of Mathematics and Astronomy - subjects that were considered blasphemous, Paganist and unconventional in Christian Alexandria, Egypt. Before she died, she had proposed several hypotheses on conic sections, many of which were suppressed (by dogmatic Christians) for over 1000 years until Johannes Kepler (1609) re-discovered and applied her hypotheses . These works were later found applicable in gravitational theories and proved useful in the prediction of celestial bodies motions. Today, it has found a wider application in satellite communication.

Why am I driving these points? Firstly, many of us seem to have dogmatic opinions about Yoruba history and origins. I'm afraid we don't want to accept any theory (or hypothesis) not validated by recent oral histories. As far as I'm concerned, more than 85% of all West-African groups came from somewhere, sometime in ancient times. Did all Yoruba groups 'suddenly' appear where they are now? Did Yoruba groups develop their language in isolation? Can we say the ancient Yoruba religion developed its nomenclature from within? Can we scientifically prove that all Yorubas have the same haplotype DNA? These are questions that need answers beyond the oral traditions we have. Actually, only private/government funded inquisition/research can help us establish the puzzles we seek to unravel. That said, I don't think Metaphysical's hypothesis should be discarded in a hurry. With time, it might even become one of the 'hail marys' of Yoruba history. We don't need to unnecessarily 'lynch' his findings and dispel them for lack of evidence(s). Knowledge is continuum, it has no beginning or end but is only subject to simplicity over time. As far as I know, Egypt and Sudan are ancient landmarks important to unraveling some of these mysteries. Thank you all...

Intelligent post. I believe the problem with most of us is that we don't like leaving our comfort zones to explore more. Also, we just read and assimilate a lot of junk, without necessarily educating our minds - and logically trying to discern what we read to get better a understanding. If most of these European academics who wrote most of the history books our arm-chair historians like to quote also failed to explore - I'm sure we won't have any history books today.

It's time for Africans to get up and start exploring. We can keep letting people tell us our own history. And oral history is more or less pure junk, and it has no place in today's world. Yoruba history didn't start in Ife. It started from somewhere else. And it wasn't just one migration wave. I believe it's definitely more than one. It's now time for us to start putting forward different hypothesis - sieve them and try to connect the dots. There are a lot of pointers out there for those who care about acquiring knowledge and demystifying the mystery behind the origin of the Yoruba's.

birdman:

Being Yoruba has to be about a way of life and set of beliefs more than anything else, even above ancestry. Remember that all humans are essentially the same, and the differences we see are the result of acculturation. Hence you may meet a Yoruba man by ancestry and name who feels more Hausa eg many Ilorin politicians, and you may run into the German woman by ancestry who immigrates to Yoruba land and becomes every bit Yoruba eg Suzanne Wenger.

So I think I could rank your options in order of importance, rather than choosing some over the other. My take:

To me, both of these are the same. They both involve wilful action to do what it takes to be Yoruba

I place will above "genetic lottery". You have no say about what you get born into, so while birth to Yoruba parents is the standard, I wouldnt go crazy with it. Can we really call the British-Nigerian that beheaded someone in Britain Yoruba? Hard to say - I would even suggest that some Nupe folks are even more Yoruba than he is


I think even this option leaves things open. You can choose to take your Yoruba side, or not to do so. I doubt most Yoruba gropus would quibble with you over mom/dad issues if you are exhibiting the omoluwabi traits. We are open minded like that.

I like your response but I have one disagreement - the allusion that there can't be evil or something bad in Yoruba. Even Yoruba spirituality states that good and evil exist for the common good of the universe. Hence the saying say "Buburu ati fere ni o nrin po" ("Bad and good things work together".

Also, I don't subscribe to the notion that some can be more/less Yoruba than others. You either are a Yoruba or you are not. But you can be a good or bad Yoruba. Yoruba history is littered with examples of good and bad Yoruba sons and daughter. Plus you can be both good and bad, just depends on whose point of view.

PAGAN 9JA:


My opinion (I dont care for the paternal rule. That applied in the past for clan marriage. However in todays day of globalization, it is void for inter-ethnic and inter-racial marriages) :


1: Someone whose parents are both Yoruba

2: Those who raised in Yoruba spirituality/ Ifa traditional religion and who fulfill the above criteria, have a higher claim to Yoruba.

Thanks for your response; I sort of guessed you were going to state this.

shymexx:

Intelligent post. I believe the problem with most of us is that we don't like leaving our comfort zones to explore more. Also, we just read and assimilate a lot of junk, without necessarily educating our minds - and logically trying to discern what we read to get better a understanding. If most of these European academics who wrote most of the history books our arm-chair historians like to quote also failed to explore - I'm sure we won't have any history books today.

It's time for Africans to get up and start exploring. We can keep letting people tell us our own history. And oral history is more or less pure junk, and it has no place in today's world. Yoruba history didn't start in Ife. It started from somewhere else. And it wasn't just one migration wave. I believe it's definitely more than one. It's now time for us to start putting forward different hypothesis - sieve them and try to connect the dots. There are a lot of pointers out there for those who care about acquiring knowledge and demystifying the mystery behind the origin of the Yoruba's.

How do u know the bold is true? There is no certainty.

Until it's been proven all claims of Yoruba origin other than Ile-Ife are mere assumptions which can't be held as truth or fact.

Katsumoto:

Nice write up. Just a few comments.

1. There isn't anything scientific about the Yoruba migrating from the middle east. Until such a theory is supported by evidence, we might as well speculate that the Yoruba might have migrated from China. It is safe to state that the Yoruba migrated from the Sudan-Nile axis like all other sub-saharan groups

2. No one has discarded Oduduwa as a myth. What we all agree on is that Oduduwa did not climb down a chain. There are a few like TerraCotta who believe he didn't exist but there are still Yoruba historians such as Ade-Ajayi who believe such a man existed and some of these historians hold on to the belief that he migrated from the middle-east. I believe they hold on to that because they can't prove where he really came from and won't accept he was Bini for obvious reasons.

3. You can't compare European language assimilation with that in Africa. Primarily because Europeans have spent the better part of their history conquering one another. For instance, Latin was spoken across much of Europe for close to 1500 years. The Saxons also took old english to England when they started conquering England in the 5th century. African conquests were on smaller scales and didn't last long enough for conquering languages to supplant native ones.

- I honestly believe everyone is trying to dissociate Yoruba history from MENA (Middle East and North Africa) because of what present day Arabs are like and what that part of the world is known for. However, if we look beyond that, and focus on timeline and how close it's to all the other Nile Valley civilisations - it might be plausible, to be honest. We just need to accept everyone's hypothesis for now and keep doing research about the origin of the Yoruba's, since we all know Yoruba didn't start in Ife.

Also, perhaps, if we get archaeologists to excavate the bones in Ife to determine when the first batch of people arrived there and try to match that with migration waves that happened in ancient, which are on the pyramid text - we might get something interesting. We can also check the timeline of the Nok civilisation (since most people believe the Yoruba's descended for the Nok people) - and try to see if it corresponds with any major event that happened in ancient Egypt. I'm citing ancient Egypt/kemet because that's the only civilisation in ancient Africa with documented records of all events.

- For Oduduwa, I'm leaning towards the myth thing now. His story is somewhat similar to both Abraham and Moses'. With Abraham, he's widely believed to be the father of the semitic people. However, there's no archaeological evidence to prove that he actually worked this planet. Even the pyramid text never said anything about him. In recent years, the idea that Abraham's story is merely a folkore has gained support. Even Apostle Paul also describe the story as a folklore in the Bible. With Moses, the only record in Egypt that's somewhat similar to the Moses story is the arrival of the Hyskos during Sobekhotep IV's reign in the 13th dynasty. And there's no record of Moses. The only time anything close to the name "Moses" appeared was during the 15th dynasty, when Kamose the Pharoh at that point in history, drove the Hyskos out of Egypt. And probably Ahmose (the founder of the 18th dynasty) and his son Prince Ramose. My point is that, since there's no archaeological proof of anyone called Oduduwa being the father of the Yoruba's - he might be another folklore like the story of the other two people I referenced in this paragraph. I guess that's why the Bini link seem implausible since there's no Bini influence in Ife - it's the other way round.

- I'm not trying to compare language assimilation in Europe with that of Africa. I just don't think linguistics is the right premise for trying to decipher ancestry/connection/origin. With the Igbo and Yoruba language language link - I believe Igala is the missing link between the two groups. Hence why there are similar words in both languages. Some legends believe Nri kingdom was an Igala kingdom and it did influence much of today's Igboland. Perhaps, that's the only connection between the two groups.

macof:

How do u know the bold is true? There is no certainty.

Until it's been proven all claims of Yoruba origin other than Ile-Ife are mere assumptions which can't be held as truth or fact.

Yeah, they are very much more of hypotheses at their infancy. It might take a lot of time, funds and efforts to come out conclusively with the real origin of the Yoruba people. This is not even a twenty year research, it will take a long time to put all the missing jigsaws in place. The eventual result(s) of such a series of investigation will shock a lot of people, including myself. Meanwhile, we should try not to condemn anybody's research that seem out of place at the moment, that's the best way to kill a researcher's spirit.

I wish Yorubaland were a nation on its own, it would have been much more easier to fund such research within our national research. As it is now, it would be very difficult to embark on such a research within the borders of Nigeria.

shymexx:

Intelligent post. I believe the problem with most of us is that we don't like leaving our comfort zones to explore more. Also, we just read and assimilate a lot of junk, without necessarily educating our minds - and logically trying to discern what we read to get better a understanding. If most of these European academics who wrote most of the history books our arm-chair historians like to quote also failed to explore - I'm sure we won't have any history books today.

It's time for Africans to get up and start exploring. We can keep letting people tell us our own history. And oral history is more or less pure junk, and it has no place in today's world. Yoruba history didn't start in Ife. It started from somewhere else. And it wasn't just one migration wave. I believe it's definitely more than one. It's now time for us to start putting forward different hypothesis - sieve them and try to connect the dots. There are a lot of pointers out there for those who care about acquiring knowledge and demystifying the mystery behind the origin of the Yoruba's.

1. Yoruba past has many branches of knowledge that unless its going to be a total and all around submission, an encyclopedia of Yoruba in Humanities, then history alone cannot explain Yoruba roots and origin. Neither is it possible that language or geography or myth, taken individually, can explain where we originated.
Yoruba is greater than any one individual academic discipline trying to contain and explain it in a book.

2. It is said.."In the mid 1800s British Navy was unarguably the best marine and sea warriors".
The world's best sea warriors were defeated multiple times by Yoruba sea warriors. How many Yorubas know this?

When the English warriors got the final victory, the instance in each case was decided by acts of accidents not directly related to man to man combat, and well into the expiration of their human spirit and endurance and their last hope only held together by the emotions of humiliation.

Where are our historians to research and write on this history? In fact, the research might raise questions on the background of Ijebu's marine skills and its root.

3. Oral history is relevant, humanity is never going to do away with oral tradition. In the age of written communication, oral records are unpopular but that does not make them irrelevant. Writing is flat ..one dimensional. Oratory is robust and multi dimensional.

4. Yoruba is made up of the following:

Priesthood -
Kingship -
Occult -
Community -
Language -
Worship -
Customs -

Each is a tradition brought from specific place between Hamitic, Semitic and Kushitic. For example, Yoruba priesthood is Hamitic and can be said to originate from Egypt; the Kingship is also Hamitic and from Assyria/Babylonia. Using the placement we begin to see the diversity in Yoruba and its footprint distribution on the map.

shymexx:

- I honestly believe everyone is trying to dissociate Yoruba history from MENA (Middle East and North Africa) because of what present day Arabs are like and what that part of the world is known for. However, if we look beyond that, and focus on timeline and how close it's to all the other Nile Valley civilisations - it might be plausible, to be honest. We just need to accept everyone's hypothesis for now and keep doing research about the origin of the Yoruba's, since we all know Yoruba didn't start in Ife.

Also, perhaps, if we get archaeologists to excavate the bones in Ife to determine when the first batch of people arrived there and try to match that with migration waves that happened in ancient, which are on the pyramid text - we might get something interesting. We can also check the timeline of the Nok civilisation (since most people believe the Yoruba's descended for the Nok people) - and try to see if it corresponds with any major event that happened in ancient Egypt. I'm citing ancient Egypt/kemet because that's the only civilisation in ancient Africa with documented records of all events.

- For Oduduwa, I'm leaning towards the myth thing now. His story is somewhat similar to both Abraham and Moses'. With Abraham, he's widely believed to be the father of the semitic people. However, there's no archaeological evidence to prove that he actually worked this planet. Even the pyramid text never said anything about him. In recent years, the idea that Abraham's story is merely a folkore has gained support. Even Apostle Paul also describe the story as a folklore in the Bible. With Moses, the only record in Egypt that's somewhat similar to the Moses story is the arrival of the Hyskos during Sobekhotep IV's reign in the 13th dynasty. And there's no record of Moses. The only time anything close to the name "Moses" appeared was during the 15th dynasty, when Kamose the Pharoh at that point in history, drove the Hyskos out of Egypt. And probably Ahmose (the founder of the 18th dynasty) and his son Prince Ramose. My point is that, since there's no archaeological proof of anyone called Oduduwa being the father of the Yoruba's - he might be another folklore like the story of the other two people I referenced in this paragraph. I guess that's why the Bini link seem implausible since there's no Bini influence in Ife - it's the other way round.

- I'm not trying to compare language assimilation in Europe with that of Africa. I just don't think linguistics is the right premise for trying to decipher ancestry/connection/origin. With the Igbo and Yoruba language language link - I believe Igala is the missing link between the two groups. Hence why there are similar words in both languages. Some legends believe Nri kingdom was an Igala kingdom and it did influence much of today's Igboland. Perhaps, that's the only connection between the two groups.

Linguistics is a clue to our past, it could explain the various contacts our ancestors have had in the time past. It could also give us clues on ancient Yoruba interactions in the areas of trade and commerce, religion, arts and culture. We cannot completely ignore the effects of our language, no matter how minimal it is. With regards to the linguistics comparison, I believe what we shall mainly get to see may be word fragments here and there. For now, I cannot possibly to come to a conclusion on that venture!

740megawatts:

Yeah, they are very much more of hypotheses at their infancy. It might take a lot of time, fund and effort to come out conclusively with the real origin of the Yoruba people. This is not a even a twenty year research, it will take a long time to put all the missing jigsaw in place. The eventual result(s) of such a series of investigation will shock a lot of people, including myself. Meanwhile, we should try not to condemn anybody's research that seem out of place at the moment, that's the best way to kill a researcher's spirit.

I wish Yorubaland were a nation on its own, it would have been much more easier to fund such research within our national research. As it is now, it would be very difficult to embark on such a research within the borders of Nigeria.

Excellent point!

I saw your earlier response as well. The title of this thread is best utilized by the collection of images in the earlier pages. We can no longer find settlements or even these objects anymore in Yorubaland and these were documentations from just 1942. In these objects you can still see traces of foreign practice in the Yoruba society. If it was possible to see image records of Yoruba in 1842 Im sure the foreigness will be more defined. How about in 1742, in 1642..? As you dial back the time we will arrive at the age and society that created the Ife bronze heads and its terracotta copies. Those arts clearly tell us they belonged in another land. I dont see why if that Yoruba society, represented by a foreign artefact, can have a foreign root but the Yoruba of today does not.

We are now looking to pinpoint the foreign home. When we agree on the location we want to know why they uprooted.

MetaPhysical:

Excellent point!

I saw your earlier response as well. The title of this thread is best utilized by the collection of images in the earlier pages. We can no longer find settlements or even these objects anymore in Yorubaland and these were documentations from just 1942. In these objects you can still see traces of foreign practice in the Yoruba society. If it was possible to see image records of Yoruba in 1842 Im sure the foreigness will be more defined. How about in 1742, in 1642..? As you dial back the time we will arrive at the age and society that created the Ife bronze heads and its terracotta copies. Those arts clearly tell us they belonged in another land. I dont see why if that Yoruba society, represented by a foreign artefact, can have a foreign root but the Yoruba of today does not.

We are now looking to pinpoint the foreign home. When we agree on the location we want to know why they uprooted.

The truth is that the more we stay in this entity called Nigeria, the more we lose our Yorubaness and the more difficult it'll be to trace a lot of ancient events to their respective timelines. As we are discussing this now, a lot of Yoruba dialects are going into extinction because we have all adopted the Oyo dialect as the standard language. Besides, many cultural and traditional practices have been (and are still being) phased out in a span of over 70 years!!! For example, I grew up speaking the Oyo dialect and I can't communicate in my native Ekiti language at the moment. I don't even understand a bit of it....now, let us fast forward to say, 50 years from now, what is going to be the fate of the Yoruba language and its numerous dialects?

So, I believe this is the time for Yoruba nation as a whole to get its act together and initiate massive research into our past. It is now or never...

Shymexx,

On the comparisons of English and Yoruba words, Im not on a wild goose chase; I have a vast collection of words and sounds like I said primarily connecting Yoruba with Old Hebrew language. The keyword is "old hebrew"! That language had origin in Canaan and gave birth to many other modern languages of North Africa, Middle East and influenced Latin/Roman vocabulary.

I looked at how a word as simple as "ra", just two letter words, ended up with penetrating influence in the life of many cultures around the globe.

Im not going to get peoples ears if I start showing how Yoruba is direct linked with modern semitic and arabic languages, simply because no one here will appreciate the connection and anything arab is an automatic turn off. If I say the english word "behind" and yoruba word "ehin" are cognates people will not have problem accepting that. However if I say english word "lately" and yoruba word "lailai" (layelaye) are cognates I will get a pushback. Also, nobody will appreciate that the english word "run" and yoruba word "orun" (sun) have same root. So I have to be careful what I share and its presentation..there is need for softness.

I use english words for the comparisons with Yoruba to highlight the fact that they are both contributions from the same bucket and that bucket is in Egypt/Canaan and thus advancing the placement of Yoruba in AfroAsiatic founding.

740megawatts:

The truth is that the more we stay in this entity called Nigeria, the more we lose our Yorubaness and the more difficult it'll be to trace a lot of ancient events to their respective timelines. As we are discussing this now, a lot of Yoruba dialects are going into extinction because we have all adopted the Oyo dialect as the standard language. Besides, many cultural and traditional practices have been (and are still being) phased out in a span of over 70 years!!! For example, I grew up speaking the Oyo dialect and I can't communicate in my native Ekiti language at the moment. I don't even understand a bit of it....now, let us fast forward to say, 50 years from now, what is going to be the fate of the Yoruba language and its numerous dialects?

So, I believe this is the time for Yoruba nation as a whole to get its act together and initiate massive research into our past. It is now or never...

I agree. A nation must live by the principle of evolution..it must periodically be killed and reborn. Yoruba is continously being killed, no one has reborn it in 30yrs, very troubling for our evolutiin forward.

Oyo became the standard from an administrative need of the colonial government to better supervise and manage the territories. The work of Crowther was more than just missionary, he was also instrumental in calibrating the alphabets. The alphabets need a review and recalibration and this should be the work of our linguists.

Visitors to the next Olympics will see Brazil but will also be exposed to Yoruba influence and this will open a new gate in cultural interest and exchanges, writers, film makers and so on that will again promote Yoruba culture. Perharps we can expect, in addition to the proud past, an emerging future that could make Ifa a world religion.

Yoruba leaders can take us out of Nigeria before tomorrow has dawned, they know what to do politically and legally to make that a reality. There are certain social structures that were lost to the Nigerian identity and we need first to regain and reinstall those. We have to regain it through the electoral and legislative process first, its a drawn out struggle. If Yoruba can continue to install one government and agenda on the land like we did with AG, UPN and now ACN, I believe in another 20 or 30yrs of that uniformity Yoruba will comfortably divest itself from Nigeria .