Why is it that whenever anyone wants to say anything about Jehovah's Witnesses they always go back to these Russell and Rutherford issues? Why can't anyone walk into a kingdom hall today and find something genuine to criticize?

If I want to criticize the Catholic church all I have to do is take a picture of the catholic next door praying before his shrine to Mary. If I wanted to criticize the Pentecostal next door, all I have to do is make a recording of his Die! die! die! all my enemies die! prayers.

I'd like to hear something concrete about witnesses teaching and doctrines, not history.

ijawkid:

They were speculations and not prophecies.....prophecies are only found in the scriptures and no where else..........
By d above statement, do u mean there are no prophecies these days but speculations?
Our speculations and expectances were all from the scriptures........

JW's aren't prophets we are bible students.......

[sub][/sub]

ijawkid:

They were speculations and not prophecies.....prophecies are only found in the scriptures and no where else..........

Our speculations and expectances were all from the scriptures........

JW's aren't prophets we are bible students.......

[quote][/quote]

honeychild:

Believe me my brother, the fear of hell has never kept anyone from sinning. The only thing that keeps you holy in this sinful world is love. When you truly love God with all your heart, the thought of hurting his feelings is what keeps you from sinning.

my dear say what you know. the fear of hell has got people thinking about what becomes of them after this life and that leads to conversion. if you doubt it, throw up a thread and ask how many people that the fear of damnation got them thinking about their spiritual lives.

yes, the fear of hell does not make a man who is in gear to sin to stop because at that point, the flesh is in charge. however when a man is contemplating sin, one of the considerations is the consequence of sin of which the punishment of hell is one, and the prize of endurance of which the glory of heaven is the chief. if one has no fear of the punishment that is attributable to sin, one of the major deterants to sinning has just been removed.

see it as you like though.

ijawkid:

Are you ready to discuss the hell fire dogma and about heaven or you just want to rant??...your mates are engaging in serious scriptural discussions on other threads as regards these topics ....can you go there and test your strenght of bible reasoning??.......

I choose to remain with a group that would learn from there mistakes and improve...........I choose to remain with a group that would everly anticipate an end to this satan ruled world.........

If you ask me about persons who teach the teachings of demons I guess you know who they are........we know persons who dig up teachings from pagans(demons) and tie them up to scriptures...and even when shown from the scriptures that it is utter wrong they choose to cling to it............

Being expectant of Gods kingdom does is no way alludes to one teaching the teachings of demons..except you don't know who or what a demon is........

I'll ask you this question::::

Would you be ready to make adjustments when a belief you once had does not allign with the scriptures??....would you??......

i would. if you show me that my practice is against the word of God, by all means i will adjust.

i asked you on another thread to show me where keeping the body of the dead is prohibited in the bible, till today, no provision.

I am waiting.

while you are at that, the spirit behind every word is most important and not the letter. what good does the no punishment for sinners teaching do to the hearers.

i care less about any other errornous teaching of jw, for me, this is key.

honeychild: Why is it that whenever anyone wants to say anything about Jehovah's Witnesses they always go back to these Russell and Rutherford issues? Why can't anyone walk into a kingdom hall today and find something genuine to criticize?

If I want to criticize the Catholic church all I have to do is take a picture of the catholic next door praying before his shrine to Mary. If I wanted to criticize the Pentecostal next door, all I have to do is make a recording of his Die! die! die! all my enemies die! prayers.

I'd like to hear something concrete about witnesses teaching and doctrines, not history.

psalm 11 verse 3

honeychild: Why is it that whenever anyone wants to say anything about Jehovah's Witnesses they always go back to these Russell and Rutherford issues? Why can't anyone walk into a kingdom hall today and find something genuine to criticize?

If I want to criticize the Catholic church all I have to do is take a picture of the catholic next door praying before his shrine to Mary. If I wanted to criticize the Pentecostal next door, all I have to do is make a recording of his Die! die! die! all my enemies die! prayers.

I'd like to hear something concrete about witnesses teaching and doctrines, not history.

Seriously? Did you just start from page 3 or what? So do we say it's a gigantic structure built on a shaky foundation? And you think those your criticisms are more valid than these on JW eh?

Let's take it that you've not heard, if you hear and it is wrong, what next?

Pygru: [b]Contradictions & Flip-Flops

The WT Society claims to be Jehovah's organization and God's only channel of spiritual instruction for today.
It stresses that the Bible is an "organizational book" and cannot be understood by individuals no matter how sincere they are.
But how can we trust our eternal destiny to an organization that during its brief time in existence has accumulated such a woeful history of doctrinal contradictions and flip-flops? Consider the following examples of ever-changing Watchtower theology.

In 1975 the WTB&TS taught that the man who sows the seed in the parable of the mustard seed (Matthew 13) is Satan.
Later that same year the WT Society taught that thissower was Jesus.

A similar incident occurred in 1978, when theWTB&TS identified the "Alpha and Omega" of Revelation 22:12-13 as Jehovah (that is, God the Father), and then five weeks later taught these verses referred to Jesus.

The Watchtower Society's failure to correctly interpret the Bible is most clearly seen in theirdoctrinal flip-flops. First they teach position A,then they change to position B, claiming God has given them "new light." Later on, however, they revert back to their old teaching (position A) and in some cases change once again to position B. Here are some examples.

Resurrection of the Men of Sodom

1879 - They will be resurrected.

1952 - They will not be resurrected.

1965 - They will be resurrected.

1988 - They will not be resurrected.

The 'Lord' in Romans 10:12-16

1903 - 'Lord' refers to Jesus.

1940 - 'Lord' refers to Jehovah.

1978 - 'Lord' refers to Jesus.

1980 - 'Lord' refers to Jehovah.

'Higher Powers' of Romans 13:1

1916 - 'Higher powers' refers to governments.

1943 - 'Higher powers' refers to Jehovah God& Jesus Christ.

1964 - 'Higher powers' refers to governments.[/b]

Now you've got me confused.

dokie:

i would. if you show me that my practice is against the word of God, by all means i will adjust.

i asked you on another thread to show me where keeping the body of the dead is prohibited in the bible, till today, no provision.

I am waiting.

while you are at that, the spirit behind every word is most important and not the letter. what good does the no punishment for sinners teaching do to the hearers.

i care less about any other errornous teaching of jw, for me, this is key.

So through out you years of studying the scriptures you have not come to know that it is to sheol we all return to when we die??....dust we are and to dust we return??......

storing up bodies and mummifying bodies is something detestable to our God..its absolute witch craft which only pagans practiced.........

All Jews were buried,including Jesus and not mummified as relics........you can also do well to ask your clerics where the thought of storing up bodies as relics originated from........

As regards the literal eternal torment wahala......JW's believe from the scriptures that satan and his cohorts,death itself and nations would undergo complete and total destruction(lake of fire)..........

ijawkid:

So you don't know and you just felt like writing....we own schools and businesses bro..many JW's do...check for them.....but we put the preaching work first........

I only asked you a question: Is it true? You said it isnt true, then just show me schools and hospitals run by Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization...or Watchtower. It's easy.

ijawkid: And please don't tell me Jesus had so much time for carpentry after his baptism........did he??.....

Jesus preached for mainly 3 years out of 33. Everyone know this except Jehovah's Witnesses, it seems.

ijawkid:

Jesus was enthroned as king of Gods kingdom in 1914....

Are you kidding me? And you call other people "stiff-necked?" Where is the evidence of this?

ijawkid: Jesus didn't come...that was a misunderstanding........
JW have fully come to know that that day and hour no man knows....our anticipation and eagerness as you know created that zeal in us.......the JW today know so much than the russels and rutherfords.....those guys were eager bible students who have done there part.........

You keep dubiously giving various names to what we all know are FALSE PROPHECIES from the pits of hell.

"misunderstanding" my foot. If it had come true, would you have called it "misunderstanding?"

Since Russell and Rutherford taught wrongly, isnt it possibly that Jehovah's witnesses today teach wrongly?

ijawkid:

Who said prophecies was equal to expectant fantasies??.........

The koko here is be observant and see how world events unfold as the scriptures predicted....aren't we in the last days anymore??abi ona don forget??........

The koko is that your sect prophesied the end of the world several times claiming they were "God's dates."

All these dates have come and gone and the world hasnt ended.

Your sect lied in God's name.

Those false prophecies could not have been from God. They were from the devil.

ijawkid:

I would sincere again because all there hard work was just for them to see the arrival of Gods kingdom...Is that not what a sincere christian would hope for and look forward to??.......should they have doubted that an end was coming and engage in the worlds affairs,,??........

You lied to the world. Lies from the father of lies himself - the devil.

ijawkid:

Ahh........you guys are attacking speculations we've left behind us decades ago........abi ona want make we go back to them??......I have never read in the scriptures were it says reading more scriptures to make needed adjustments is a crime...........but you do know what is a crime.......persistently and incessantly engaging in idol worship even when it is solely against Gods commands is what the definition of crime is.....

I want you to attack what I know now from the many more scriptures I've read.........

Can you and your ilks do that??

But your sect forbids you to interpret scripture on your own.

Whatever you claim to understand is only part of their lies and false interpretation, so we can as well take on your sect directly.

Your teachings change like the weather... what you believe today...you will reject tomorrow.

This cannot be from God, surely.

ijawkid:

They were speculations and not prophecies.....prophecies are only found in the scriptures and no where else..........

Our speculations and expectances were all from the scriptures........

JW's aren't prophets we are bible students.......

Which Bible?

The one Russell and Rutherford used...or the adulterated one by Knorr?

italo:

I only asked you a question: Is it true? You said it isnt true, then just show me schools and hospitals run by Jehovah's Witnesses as an organization...or Watchtower. It's easy.

Individuals who are witnesses own schools and hospitals......as a group we don't own schools or hospitals.........isn't owning schools and hospitals as individuals enough??........

italo:

Jesus preached for mainly 3 years out of 33. Everyone know this except Jehovah's Witnesses, it seems.

and you forgot it was after Jesus' baptism and annointing that he started his preaching work for the 3 years......your brain didn't tell you that??........

italo:

Are you kidding me? And you call other people "stiff-necked?" Where is the evidence of this?

Evidence is based on chronology and a corroboration of world events.........I bet you don't even observe the times you're living.......

italo:

You keep dubiously giving various names to what we all know are FALSE PROPHECIES from the pits of hell.

Hehehehe........the scriptures which is our text book is where the prophecies are....deciphering its meaning is what bible students do.........we are not prophets......the prophets have already written prophecies in the scriptures.........go and read the books of the prophets and revelation to know where the world is heading to....

italo:

"misunderstanding" my foot. If it had come true, would you have called it "misunderstanding?"

Now that is why its called misunderstanding........you read the scriptures regarding world events and watch closely......

Try checking up the definition of misunderstand.......I can boldly tell you that in more years to come before the end finally comes prophecies regarding the lastdays would even get more interesting......

italo:

Since Russell and Rutherford taught wrongly, isnt it possibly that Jehovah's witnesses today teach wrongly?

Can you mention the wrong things we hold on to that is wrong??..... As you see a witness with a bad preaching what does he or she believe that is wrong??.....can you please list out the doctrines......thank you...

italo:

The koko is that your sect prophesied the end of the world several times claiming they were "God's dates."

All these dates have come and gone and the world hasnt ended.

Your sect lied in God's name.

Those false prophecies could not have been from God. They were from the devil.

Ahhh...so the devil would be interested in seeing the world come to an end??,.....abi??......it seems the devil is now on Gods side then...........

italo:

You lied to the world. Lies from the father of lies himself - the devil.

We didn't LIE........can you define what a lie is??...its like saying when a meteorologist makes a mistake in reading the weather conditions he has LIED........what that meteorologist would do is work harder from time to time to make sure his research and findings are up to standard.......

This is exactly what The JW's have done......

.The Father expects every ch®istian to anticipate the coming of his Kingdom.......

italo:

But your sect forbids you to interpret scripture on your own.

Whatever you claim to understand is only part of their lies and false interpretation, so we can as well take on your sect directly.

Your teachings change like the weather... what you believe today...you will reject tomorrow.

This cannot be from God, surely.

Naaa......most of my points I bring up here on nairaland are also from my personal scriptural study....you forget each JW is a full time bible student??.........

Most of my points I've dropped here on doctrines like trinity,hell fire,mary worship,wars,politics etc are mostly from my own bible study........

The basic tenets of what the bible really teaches remains intact.......

My question back to you is can you make a bit of change even when a truth is staring right at you??......

ijawkid:
Individuals who are witnesses own schools and hospitals......as a group we don't own schools or hospitals.........isn't owning schools and hospitals as individuals enough??........

So Watchtower runs ZERO SCHOOLS and HOSPITALS!

WHY?!

ijawkid: and you forgot it was after Jesus' baptism and annointing that he started his preaching work for the 3 years......your brain didn't tell you that??........

Cant you Jehovah's Witnesses just own up to your lies and errors? Anyway that is the example set by your founding fathers.

You said Jesus spent 90percent of his time preaching.

3 years out of 33 equals 9.09 percent.

You lied again!

italo:

Which Bible?

The one Russell and Rutherford used...or the adulterated one by Knorr?

Bible semantics agaiÑ??......

can you show me the bible knorr adulterated??,,,,,do you even know who knorr is??........

italo:

So Watchtower runs ZERO SCHOOLS and HOSPITALS!

WHY?!

BecÀuse its not pre-requisite for gaining eternal life...as individuals we engage in owning schools and hospitals....if that is not enough for you go report to Jesus.......our main work as a group is to preach.......I guess you guys should try that......

italo:

Cant you Jehovah's Witnesses just own up to your lies and errors? Anyway that is the example set by your founding fathers.

Have I not on this thread said it boldly that we've made some errors in the past which we have left behind and looked to further improvements??,,,,were you deaf or blind when I made that comment??........

The question I'm asking you is are you willing to make improvements on your doctrine which mostly stems from paganism??......

italo:

You said Jesus spent 90percent of his time preaching.

3 years out of 33 equals 9.09 percent.

You lied again!

When I said spent 90 percent I was referring to after his being baptized and annointed to do Gods will....if only you had settled to think my way.......

Jesus never got engaged in the preaching campaign not until he was baptized......am I lying??

ijawkid:

Ahhh...so the devil would be interested in seeing the world come to an end??,.....abi??......it seems the devil is now on Gods side then...........

What the devil is interested in is LIES and CONFUSION.

...And that is exactly what your sect engaged/engages in.

ijawkid:

We didn't LIE........can you define what a lie is??...its like saying when a meteorologist makes a mistake in reading the weather conditions he has LIED........what that meteorologist would do is work harder from time to time to make sure his research and findings are up to standard.......

This is exactly what The JW's have done......

.The Father expects every ch®istian to anticipate the coming of his Kingdom.......

A meteorologist can make a forecast that will not come to pass because the meteorologist cannot and does not claim 100 percent certainty.

But a prophecy is 100 percent certain to come true since it is God's message. If it doesnt come true, then the person who made the prophecy lied that it was God's message.

...And that is what your sect did.

italo:

What the devil is interested in is LIES and CONFUSION.

...And that is exactly what your sect engaged/engages in.

Lol.........we only made speculations because of our anticipation of an end to satans world...I don't see how satan can be in support of that......rather satan has lied to many that the world would not come to an end and that many should not anticipate it........

ijawkid:

Naaa......most of my points I bring up here on nairaland are also from my personal scriptural study....you forget each JW is a full time bible student??.........

Most of my points I've dropped here on doctrines like trinity,hell fire,mary worship,wars,politics etc are mostly from my own bible study........

The basic tenets of what the bible really teaches remains intact.......

“Avoid Independent Thinking .. How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.” (Watchtower Jan. 15 1983 22)

Who is lying? You or Watchtower?...or both!

ijawkid: My question back to you is can you make a bit of change even when a truth is staring right at you??......

Yes. Unlike you who would rather re-name false prophecies "expectant fantasies."

italo:

A meteorologist can make a forecast that will not come to pass because the meteorologist cannot and does not claim 100 percent certainty.

But a prophecy is 100 percent certain to come true since it is God's message. If it doesnt come true, then the person who made the prophecy lied that it was God's message.

...And that is what your sect did.

Meteorologists work with laid down principles and standards on which there speculations are hinged to.......

JW's never claimed to be prophets...that's where you've got a problem......the scriptures which is holy already contains the prophecies and all informations we need for speculations and juxtapositions...........

We are only watchful my bro as Jesus said we should...........

Just as a meteorologist is watchful about weather conditions so also the JW's are ever watchful of signs that would culminate to the end of this satan ruled world..........

Besides we never foretold the day and hour the world would end.........

ijawkid:

Bible semantics agaiÑ??......

can you show me the bible knorr adulterated??,,,,,do you even know who knorr is??........

Which Bible did you use?

The one Russell and Rutherford used...or the one Knorr adulterated?

italo:

“Avoid Independent Thinking .. How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization.” (Watchtower Jan. 15 1983 22)

Who is lying? You or Watchtower?...or both!

Lol.......I bet you even understand what you quoted...........as long as I remain a dutiful bible student I reason from the scriptures which ofcus agrees with the basic tenets of the scriptures...............all my discussions which I coined out from my personal study is in agreement with my being a JW...

italo:

Yes. Unlike you who would rather re-name false prophecies "expectant fantasies."

Lol...what changes have the RCC made from there stiff necked stance......??....

Don't u guys still obstinately bow down to marys statue even when you have no scriptural injunction for that??.........

Eh??......can't you guys make changes to allign with scriptures??...

ijawkid:
BecÀuse its not pre-requisite for gaining eternal life...as individuals we engage in owning schools and hospitals....if that is not enough for you go report to Jesus.......our main work as a group is to preach.......I guess you guys should try that......

I see. It's just that one would think that an organization that claims to be God's organization would want to educate God's children and treat their ailments. But never mind. It's not just your way.

ijawkid: Have I not on this thread said it boldly that we've made some errors in the past which we have left behind and looked to further improvements??,,,,were you deaf or blind when I made that comment??........

...And erroneous teachings can only come from satan. No?

ijawkid: The question I'm asking you is are you willing to make improvements on your doctrine which mostly stems from paganism??......

If the teachings were from paganism, I would not seek to improve on it. I would simply abandon it. How do you improve on the devil's teaching? Oh! I forgot Jehovah's witnesses are busy trying to improve on the devil's false teachings (as you have admitted above).

ijawkid: When I said spent 90 percent I was referring to after his being baptized and annointed to do Gods will....if only you had settled to think my way.......

God forbid it...that I should think your way.

ijawkid: Jesus never got engaged in the preaching campaign not until he was baptized......am I lying??

Yes. And he was baptized at 30. That makes it three years of preaching out of 33 years on earth, which is 9percent.

Am I lying?

Italy:

I see. It's just that one would think that an organization that claims to be God's organization would want to educate God's children and treat their ailments. But never mind. It's not just your way.

Good!!....besides we as a group and as individuals obey the scriptural injunction to pay taxes to the goverment to provide all those basic ammenities apart from the fact that individual JW's run such businesses..

Our major duty is preach,preach and preach....

italo:

...And erroneous teachings can only come from satan. No?

And when these erroneous teachings are dropped behind because of ones improved understanding how does that now link to satan??............

italo:

If the teachings were from paganism, I would not seek to improve on it. I would simply abandon it. How do you improve on the devil's teaching? Oh! I forgot Jehovah's witnesses are busy trying to improve on the devil's false teachings (as you have admitted above).

But umpteen times we've showed you guys where your doctrines or practices stem from........and the good thing is that you guys know there origin as well....is it xmas,the reverencing of dead mummified human body parts,the use of beads in worship...etc....


Can you make bold changes just as reyginus is doing??..........

italo:

God forbid it...that I should think your way.



Yes. And he was baptized at 30. That makes it three years of preaching out of 33 years on earth, which is 9percent.

Am I lying?

If you had known where I was coming from then thinking my way wouldn't have been a bad idea.......

When I say Jesus used 90percent of his time to preach the gospel I meant after his baptism............

So you see why you should have reasoned my way??......