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Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! - Religion - Nairaland

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Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 10:32am On May 03, 2013
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2v10

Now, Jesus broke the sabbath law, the fourth in the ten commandments, and He did so more than four times, to show that the first time wasn't a mistake and the second time wasn't a coincidence, but a deliberate act. And yet Jesus had this testimony from Paul that He ...knew NO SIN, 1Cor 5v21, and also this witness from the Father that ...This is my beloved Son, in whom i am WELL PLEASED, matt 17v5

Question is this: HOW CAN SOMEONE WHO BROKE ONE OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, AND SO SHOULD BE GUILTY OF ALL, KNOW NO SIN AND HAVE THE PLEASURE OF THE FATHER??!!

The only rational, unblasphemous, Spirit-inspired answer is this: The righteousness of the kingdom that Jesus premiered, preached and practised had NOTHING to do with Laws of Moses, it is a righteousness that the laws you obey and the commandments you keep OR NOT don't add to or subtract from.

Now, this 'works-independent' righteousness is what Christ imputes unto justification to every man who puts his/her faith in HIS death and resurrection.

If the Holy Spirit ever convicts you of wrong doing, it is not for righteousness or justification-sake but for perfection and glorification-sake. Yes, there is a difference between righteousness and perfection. 23years after scripture declared Abraham righteous by fath in Genesis 15v6, God told him in Gen 17v1 ...walk before me and BE THOU PERFECT. So a man can be righteous for 23years and still be imperfect, or the other way round, a man can be imperfect for 23years and still be righteous.

Righteousness is a stand, perfection is a walk. Righteousness is a state, perfection is a journey. So as believers, we are in a state of righteousness by faith in Christ, journeying unto perfection by fellowship with Him. But even before we reach destination perfection, our righteousness never flunctuates. That is the gospel of INFINITE GRACE.

Will expantiate better in my subsequent topics. I love you all with the love of Christ, and together look forward to the day the church will be liberated from the knowledge of good and evil unto the reality of the Life of Christ that will usher in the greatest move of God this generation will ever witness and that will climax this church age - Ayoku

10 Likes

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Cashio(m): 11:39am On May 03, 2013
......but no one asked u all these!
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 11:40am On May 03, 2013
Thosee who mix or try to balance Grace with some aspects of the law of Moses will soon come and tell you it was because Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath... cool
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Enigma(m): 11:46am On May 03, 2013
^^^ @Goshen360

You are losing a considerable amount of respect in my eyes with this attitude that you have taken, unfortunately.

As far as I can see, everyone that you have debated on the point is calling for balance of law and grace; the issue of debate is really one of where to set the balance.

You need to return to the more humble Goshen that a lot of people (used to) admire both openly and privately.

smiley

1 Like

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 11:46am On May 03, 2013
@Cashio, there has been to much argument about the issue of grace lately, i'm trying to set the records straight. We need truth to be all we should be in Christ, and this gospel of grace is part of that truth. Thanks

1 Like

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 11:49am On May 03, 2013
Cashio: ......but no one asked u all these!

Don't he, the OP also have a right to opening a thread? wink
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 11:50am On May 03, 2013
@Goshen, alot of people and unfortunately christians too, love controversy and argument. So even if their heart agrees with a truth, they will still argue about it. But lets hope that wont be the case with this one. I love all christians, and the edification of all is my goal.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 11:58am On May 03, 2013
Enigma: ^^^ @Goshen360

You are losing a considerable amount of respect in my eyes with this attitude that you have taken, unfortunately.

As far as I can see, everyone that you have debated on the point is calling for balance of law and grace; the issue of debate is really one of where to set the balance.

You need to return to the more humble Goshen that a lot of people (used to) admire both openly and privately.

smiley

@Enigma, The honest truth is that, there will never be a balance between the law and the Spirit, you can't be law-led and Spirit-led together. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law, Gal 5v18. Being led of one must cost you the leadership of the other, once you add works to receiving grace it ceases to be grace. And if by grace, then it is no more works, otherwise grace is no more grace, Rom 11v6. Be blessed

3 Likes

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 12:02pm On May 03, 2013
@ Enigma,

I'm very sorry if I sound rude or playful some time or even proud by choice of words but that's the way I view those who uphold the law (of Moses) or mix with Grace...my view about them might be wrong though. That one, I'm sorry and apologize.

2. On the issue of debate and demanding balance, there's nothing like balancing Grace with the law of Moses, absolutely nothing of such for Christians. That's the whole purpose of letter to the Galatians, they, having started in the Spirit (saved by Grace), they trying to return to the flesh or trying to balance with the law of Moses. Should you say Grace + law of Christ, then YES!
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 12:30pm On May 03, 2013
ayoku777: Jesus broke the sabbath law, the fourth in the ten commandments, and He did so more than four times, to show that the first time wasn't a mistake and the second time wasn't a coincidence, but a deliberate act.

I have a little work to present to you, sir, since the above is a very big thing to say.

Please provide as exactly as possible what the Law required with respect to the Sabbath and explain how Jesus failed to meet those requirements.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 1:43pm On May 03, 2013
Ihedinobi:

I have a little work to present to you, sir, since the above is a very big thing to say.

Please provide as exactly as possible what the Law required with respect to the Sabbath and explain how Jesus failed to meet those requirements.

Exodus 20v9and10 says
'Six days shall thou labour and do all thy work.
But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God, in it thou shall not do any work....

Now by work it refers to all manner of farm work, either planting or harvesting or gathering, read Num 15v32-36. Then it also refers to market work, either buying or selling, read Neh 13v15-17. Then work also includes bearing of burden or carrying of weight, either by yourself or upon you cattle, read Neh 13v19. Then finally, they jews also included the working of miracles as 'work'. Of which Jesus also rightly called his miracles 'works'. And Exodus 20v10 said 'In it thou shall do no work'.

So if you check this sabbath regulations against the New testament, you will see where Christ defended his disciples against the accusation of the pharisees when they were harvesting corn and eating on the sabbath, check Matt 12v1. Then also when he healed the man at the pool of Bethesda and told him to carry his bed, which is to bear burden on the sabbath day, check John 5v8-10. Then the miracles he performed on the sabbath, if you read Luke 13v14, you will see that miracle working was classified as 'work' by the Jews.

3 Likes

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 2:51pm On May 03, 2013
Ok. Thank you, bro.

Now, as you said, the Jews included miracles as work, did they not? That raises the question, "what can be considered work from which the Jew was commanded to abstain and what cannot?" Don't you agree?

I'm sure you noticed Jesus raising questions about activities carried out on the Sabbath. There is Luke 13:15-16 where He pointed out that even the rulers watered their livestock on the Sabbath and Matthew 12:3-6 where He pointed out that the priests in the Temple carried out activities that could also be termed work but were innocent of breaking the Sabbath and David who ate food that seemingly was unlawful for him to eat.

We are put in mind by those passages that Jesus was essentially saying that the Law had not been correctly appreciated by the Jews. As He said, it was about Him that Moses spoke.

Now, the Jews most likely defined working on the Sabbath to mean something that God didn't mean. As a result, by their questionable standards (I have illustrated how Jesus questioned those standards), Jesus broke the Sabbath but in reality He did not and implied as much by saying things like "man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man" and "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath".

In other words, Jesus NEVER broke the true Sabbath. What He did was reveal it. Do you understand, bro?

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Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 3:28pm On May 03, 2013
Goshen360: @ Enigma,[/b]https://www.nairaland.com/followed

I'm very sorry if I sound rude or playful some time or even proud by choice of words but that's the way I view those who uphold the law (of Moses) or mix with Grace...my view about them might be wrong though. That one, I'm sorry and apologize.

2. On the issue of debate and demanding balance, there's nothing like balancing Grace with the law of Moses, absolutely nothing of such for Christians. That's the whole purpose of letter to the Galatians, they, having started in the Spirit (saved by Grace), they trying to return to the flesh or trying to balance with the law of Moses. [b]Should you say Grace + law of Christ, then YES!
but Christ is the lawgiver na..why can't you see it?

1 Like

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by bobbyL(m): 3:47pm On May 03, 2013
Ihedinobi: Ok. Thank you, bro.

Now, as you said, the Jews included miracles as work, did they not? That raises the question, "what can be considered work from which the Jew was commanded to abstain and what cannot?" Don't you agree?

I'm sure you noticed Jesus raising questions about activities carried out on the Sabbath. There is Luke 13:15-16 where He pointed out that even the rulers watered their livestock on the Sabbath and Matthew 12:3-6 where He pointed out that the priests in the Temple carried out activities that could also be termed work but were innocent of breaking the Sabbath and David who ate food that seemingly was unlawful for him to eat.

We are put in mind by those passages that Jesus was essentially saying that the Law had not been correctly appreciated by the Jews. As He said, it was about Him that Moses spoke.

Now, the Jews most likely defined working on the Sabbath to mean something that God didn't mean. As a result, by their questionable standards (I have illustrated how Jesus questioned those standards), Jesus broke the Sabbath but in reality He did not and implied as much by saying things like "man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man" and "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath".

In other words, Jesus NEVER broke the true Sabbath. What He did was reveal it. Do you understand, bro?
Are you an adventist?
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Enigma(m): 4:03pm On May 03, 2013
Bidam: but Christ is the lawgiver na..why can't you see it?

Yes, it is very funny that some who are "condemning" the law have themselves become legalistic about grace.

The true "balance" is having a proper understanding and appreciation of the law in the era of the New Testament or New Covenant.

Real balance is that the Spirit of Christ gives the true understanding of the law; Christ Himself "fulfilled" the law. By following the Spirit of Christ, Christians will more than keep the law as it was (or became or came to be practiced) but in the truth of what was always intended.


Even the Romans 7 that some like to quote to denigrate the law says in verse 12: "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

Yes, Hebrews 7:16 says the former regulation was "weak and useless" and that "the law made nothing perfect". But the same chapter says Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant and has been made perfect forever.

And Jesus in His teachings revealed the true spirit of the law when He showed in various examples the limitations of the law and the real "obligation" that was intended: the law said 'do not commit adultery' Christ explains that it is not just about sleeping with another person's wife but even looking lustfully. Evidently, if you do not even look lustfully you have more than kept or "fulfilled" the law. Does that not indicate that in the New Covenant you get the true meaning or "fulfillment" of the law?

And on the ceremonial level, whereas temples built with human hands were once regarded as holy, even,one's being is now the temple; so the "holy" attitude that is supposed to be exhibited in the physical temple is now to be exhibited in one's person ---- which means always and [/i]wherever[/i]. Will that not more than fulfill the law?

The balance, once again, is not to denigrate the law for denigration sake but to understand its role, purpose and true meaning and fulfillment under the New Covenant.

smiley

2 Likes

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:15pm On May 03, 2013
^^ Exactly, big bro.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:19pm On May 03, 2013
bobby.L:

Are you an adventist?

Do you need me to be one?
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by ayoku777(m): 4:26pm On May 03, 2013
Ihedinobi: Ok. Thank you, bro.

Now, as you said, the Jews included miracles as work, did they not? That raises the question, "what can be considered work from which the Jew was commanded to abstain and what cannot?" Don't you agree?

I'm sure you noticed Jesus raising questions about activities carried out on the Sabbath. There is Luke 13:15-16 where He pointed out that even the rulers watered their livestock on the Sabbath and Matthew 12:3-6 where He pointed out that the priests in the Temple carried out activities that could also be termed work but were innocent of breaking the Sabbath and David who ate food that seemingly was unlawful for him to eat.

We are put in mind by those passages that Jesus was essentially saying that the Law had not been correctly appreciated by the Jews. As He said, it was about Him that Moses spoke.

Now, the Jews most likely defined working on the Sabbath to mean something that God didn't mean. As a result, by their questionable standards (I have illustrated how Jesus questioned those standards), Jesus broke the Sabbath but in reality He did not and implied as much by saying things like "man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man" and "the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath".

In other words, Jesus NEVER broke the true Sabbath. What He did was reveal it. Do you understand, bro?

Thanks alot bro, that was very analytical, and this is how i love counter views to be presented, no bitterness or anger. You are right, the pharisees clearly carried the law to hypocritical heights that God never took it. But then again, Jesus in Matt 12, never admitted that the sabbath wasn't broken, what he did was cite instances in scripture where the sabbath and priesthood were profaned and yet the culprits were not judged, because they obtained mercy.

He cited David in Matt 12v3-4, who profaned the priesthood by eating the shewbread that was unlawful for him and his soldiers to eat except for priest, and yet he wasn't judged by God coz he obtained mercy. Unlike Saul, who profaned the priesthood by offering sacrifices instead of waiting for samuel, and he was judged and lost the throne, 1Sam 13v9-14

Then in Matt 12v5 he cited how the priest profane the sabbath everytime by bearing burden when they carry the oxen for the sacrifices and gathering wood for the burnt offering, yet they are not judged coz of God's mercies, something other isrealites were stoned to death for, Num 15v32-36. What Jesus was pointing out here was that mercy triumphs over judgment, that even though what his disciples did profaned the sabbath, they were blameless coz they've obtained mercy like David and the priests.

Thats why he made that final statement in Matt 12v7, 'but if ye had known what this meaneth, i will have mercy and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.' He admitted the sabbath was broken, but they were guiltless because they have obtained the mercy of the Lord
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:47pm On May 03, 2013
Obadiah777!!! Where be ye?! Thou scourge of atheists, bane of mainstream Christians, nemesis of caucasians and confuser of me. Thy attention be needed here grin grin grin


**twiddling my moustache** this is really going to be lovely

3 Likes

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:49pm On May 03, 2013
ayoku777:

Thanks alot bro, that was very analytical, and this is how i love counter views to be presented, no bitterness or anger. You are right, the pharisees clearly carried the law to hypocritical heights that God never took it. But then again, Jesus in Matt 12, never admitted that the sabbath wasn't broken, what he did was cite instances in scripture where the sabbath and priesthood were profaned and yet the culprits were not judged, because they obtained mercy.

Did Jesus say exactly, "profaned and not judged because they obtained mercy"?

Thats why he made that final statement in Matt 12v7, 'but if ye had known what this meaneth, i will have mercy and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.'

Why did He say "guiltless"?

He admitted the sabbath was broken, but they were guiltless because they have obtained the mercy of the Lord

Did He explicitly make this admission or did you infer it?
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:54pm On May 03, 2013
Enigma:

Yes, it is very funny that some who are "condemning" the law have themselves become legalistic about grace.

The true "balance" is having a proper understanding and appreciation of the law in the era of the New Testament or New Covenant.

Real balance is that the Spirit of Christ gives the true understanding of the law; Christ Himself "fulfilled" the law. By following the Spirit of Christ, Christians will more than keep the law as it was (or became or came to be practiced) but in the truth of what was always intended.


Even the Romans 7 that some like to quote to denigrate the law says in verse 12: "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."

Yes, Hebrews 7:16 says the former regulation was "weak and useless" and that "the law made nothing perfect". But the same chapter says Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant and has been made perfect forever.

And Jesus in His teachings revealed the true spirit of the law when He showed in various examples the limitations of the law and the real "obligation" that was intended: the law said 'do not commit adultery' Christ explains that it is not just about sleeping with another person's wife but even looking lustfully. Evidently, if you do not even look lustfully you have more than kept or "fulfilled" the law. Does that not indicate that in the New Covenant you get the true meaning or "fulfillment" of the law?

And on the ceremonial level, whereas temples built with human hands were once regarded as holy, even,one's being is now the temple; so the "holy" attitude that is supposed to be exhibited in the physical temple is now to be exhibited in one's person ---- which means always and [/i]wherever[/i]. Will that not more than fulfill the law?

The balance, once again, is not to denigrate the law for denigration sake but to understand its role, purpose and true meaning and fulfillment under the New Covenant.

smiley
you quoting this lengthy sermon doesn't cut it for me..and what in God's name gave you the impression that i am legalistic about grace? you can see where i highlighted goshen post about Christ law which is written in the heart of a believer..which i very much agree to..so what is your problem? abi Christ no be lawgiver and judge again ni?

T
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:58pm On May 03, 2013
Bidam: you quoting this lengthy sermon doesn't cut it for me..and what in God's name gave you the impression that i am legalistic about grace? you can see where i highlighted goshen post about Christ law which is written in the heart of a believer..which i very much agree to..so what is your problem? abi Christ no be lawgiver and judge again ni?

T

Bidam, I think you read Enigma wrong. He wasn't talking about you at all, I believe he was only expanding on your comment.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 5:05pm On May 03, 2013
The point i am trying to make is how we treat seeming contradictions in the Scriptures is critical to our ability to rightly divide the Word of truth. One incorrect way in which to approach a seeming contradiction is to fasten on the side we prefer and ignore the other. This approach seems to be the way in which Christian deductive theology has been constructed.

Another incorrect way is to seek a "balance" such that neither verse is taken in the fullness of its apparent meaning. To do this is to end up with a soup that is neither hot nor cold.

The only correct manner in which to approach two seemingly contradictory statements in the inspired text is to regard each as the unchanging Word of God and to accept it fully, even though we cannot for the moment understand how the two statements can possibly be reconciled.

There is no way we can waltz around the scriptures, claiming it does not apply to Christians, or it is spoken only to Jews (a favorite technique for evading the inconsistencies of current Christian teaching.)

1 Like

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 5:13pm On May 03, 2013
Ihedinobi:

Bidam, I think you read Enigma wrong. He wasn't talking about you at all, I believe he was only expanding on your comment.
Ok sorry my bad. The point i agree with Goshen is that there shouldn't be a balance at all.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 5:26pm On May 03, 2013
I think that when you read him more closely, you'll see that he's saying the same thing as you. That he uses 'balancing' and you use 'reconciling' is just semantics and peculiar preferences of speech. Your meanings are the same.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by shdemidemi(m): 6:58pm On May 03, 2013
Bidam: The point i am trying to make is how we treat seeming contradictions in the Scriptures is critical to our ability to rightly divide the Word of truth. One incorrect way in which to approach a seeming contradiction is to fasten on the side we prefer and ignore the other. This approach seems to be the way in which Christian deductive theology has been constructed.

Another incorrect way is to seek a "balance" such that neither verse is taken in the fullness of its apparent meaning. To do this is to end up with a soup that is neither hot nor cold.

The only correct manner in which to approach two seemingly contradictory statements in the inspired text is to regard each as the unchanging Word of God and to accept it fully, even though we cannot for the moment understand how the two statements can possibly be reconciled.

There is no way we can waltz around the scriptures, claiming it does not apply to Christians, or it is spoken only to Jews (a favorite technique for evading the inconsistencies of current Christian teaching.)

Hmmmmm....
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Enigma(m): 7:10pm On May 03, 2013
@Budam

Yes, Ihe is right; I was just trying to build on the point I thought you were making. smiley
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by shdemidemi(m): 7:15pm On May 03, 2013
@bidam

Explain this
Acts 15:14-15
Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 Simon Peter has told us how God showed his love for the non-Jewish people. For the first time, God accepted them and made them his people. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this too:
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Image123(m): 10:13pm On May 03, 2013
Ihedinobi:

Do you need me to be one?
cheesy
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 10:54pm On May 03, 2013
Enigma: @Budam

Yes, Ihe is right; I was just trying to build on the point I thought you were making. smiley
Yeah i was in a hurry to reply sorry.
Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Goshen360(m): 11:14pm On May 03, 2013
Bidam: Yeah i was in a hurry to reply sorry.

Next time, try to dey cool down. You too dey rush and jump pass.... grin. One of the characteristics of a good debate is to CLEARLY UNDERSTAND your opponent, then you can counter on the weak side. If I catch you jumping or rushing next time, na flogging you go receive... grin

1 Like

Re: Antagonists Of The Gospel Of Infinite Grace; Answer This Question!! by Nobody: 4:59am On May 04, 2013
Goshen360:

Next time, try to dey cool down. You too dey rush and jump pass.... grin. One of the characteristics of a good debate is to CLEARLY UNDERSTAND your opponent, then you can counter on the weak side. If I catch you jumping or rushing next time, na flogging you go receive... grin
lol..funny guy

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