It right for one to combine the calling of God with secular job? As in is easy to please GOD and at the same time [maintain a normal job]?

Sorry, you didn't leave enough intro to follow. What exactly do you mean?

@topebolu
You mean, combining Pastorship/a spiritual calling with your professional career?

Yes of course.

topebolu:

It right for one to combine the calling of God with secular job? As in is easy to please GOD and at the same time [maintain a normal job]?

There's no contradiction there - those called of God could hold normal secular jobs, although it's not easy to manage both.

Some are called to full-time ministry, in which case it's almost impossible to simultaneously handle the demands of a secular job and the service of a divine call, especially when such a person is called to an itinerant ministry.

It's unfortunate that today almost everyone who feels himself/herself called into service quickly wants to see themselves as full-time minister, and then handle the ministry like it was supposed to be a secular organization of sorts.

It's an honourable thing to please God in whatever aspect He calls you to serve. It will become evident whether or not His calling was to full-time ministry or otherwise.

Yes u can be a pastor and be a banker.

Yes u can be a pastor and be a banker.

I was just curios! Why banking?!!!

Banking is the most 'secular' career that one can imagine because a lot of money handling is involved!

What about being a Pastor and a Nigerian Policeman?

Being a pastor is not God's calling.

TayoD:

I was just curios! Why banking?!!!

because it was the first job dat came to my mind.

@ seun -- u r something else.

Skidoc:

What about being a Pastor and a Nigerian Policeman?

Haaaa! Corruption.

4 Play:

Being a pastor is not God's calling.

U know u r sick right?

@hotangel
I ain't.I think God does not call anyone.I respect hookers more than pastors

@ 4 play -- u know i've been reading stuffs from u, and i must say, na wa for u oo.

@hotangel
Read on.U will gain more wisdom from me than reading the bible.Sometimes I think I am the One.

Whatever u say hunnie.

But wait, i'll still believe some of the things the bible says.

@skidoc

What about being a Pastor and a Nigerian Policeman?

Yes, I know a lot of Policemen who are Pastors, I mean solid ones, not the 20naira lookalikes, and yes, they are doing their job, in fact, they are the ones doing their job the way it should be done. But also, its hard for them coz, you know in a lot of things, they are sidelined especially when their Christianity is not "in-mouth-only".

@4Play

@hotangel
Read on.U will gain more wisdom from me than reading the bible.Sometimes I think I am the One.

You are what?
ok, sorry, Yup you are right. You are the One confused person who thinks you are something,
too bad

pastor and police/soldier?
I'll say Hell No. U don't carry the holy spirit and yet wield a gun.

Not in this dispensation. Maybe in the first to fourth, yes, but not in d dispensation of grace. D holy spirit will never rejoice at you killing a sinner.

GODs does call people to ministry but a lot call themselves.

lol, layi 

layi:

pastor and police/soldier?
I'll say Hell No. U don't carry the holy spirit and yet wield a gun. . . D holy spirit will never rejoice at you killing a sinner.

We can't be too sure about that. Moses was called of God and he wielded/brandished a rod! (Exo 4:2 - "And the LORD said unto him, What is that in thine hand? And he said, A rod". The wise men and sorcerers in Pharaoh's royal palace had their own rods, too (and we know that they did not have the Spirit of God in them! - see Exo. 7:11-12). Wielding guns is not a reason for disqualifying people, otherwise policemen who are Christians would never have had the Holy Spirit in them!

There's a difference between serving in the law enforcement departments of the any political government and serving in Church ministry. I believe that God could amaze us by calling whomsoever He wills. Policemen may wield guns, but I don't believe they do so to kill indiscriminately (except in in the Nigerian context and other few places where there's no respect for the rule of law!). I know of at least a police officer who was a member of a local church when I visited the US last summer. He had served creditably as youth and young adults pastor before his call home. I was told there were several others in the Army, Navy, and Airforce (not just military chaplains) who serve in some capacities in their local churches.

God can call anybody - policeman, banker, cement seller, . . . the list is endless. But as you said, I agree with you that: "GOD does call people to ministry but a lot call themselves."

Do u hav an example of a pastor or any christain who is agressively annointed of GOD today and yet kills? It happened under the law true but not under grace.
The rod u talked about is called the mantle. Read Chris Oyakhilome's book on "The oil and the mantle". Those 2 items symbolises the annointing. They didnt have the infilling on the holy spirit but he was present in the oil and the mantle.
You can't compare the mantle wit a gun. the holy spirit cannot be symbolised wit a gun because a gun never does anything good.

@layi,

L.O.L. First, I was teasing you and ended up with the fact that God can call anyone - whether policeman, military personnel, or such like. It doesn't mean that because they bear guns or any weapon for that matter, God can't call them to salvation and service. The Bible says that a believer who's born again in Christ has the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him/her, otherwise such a person does not belong to Him (Rom. 8:9). If a policeman/woman gives his/her life to Christ while still keeping their police jobs, would God refuse to grant them the indwelling of the Spirit because of their vocation? Not at all.

Sometimes, we confuse the terms used in describing the work of the Spirit and that's why we miss certain clear statements. The indwelling and the infilling are not the same, just as the ernest and the anointing of the Spirit are not the same. Every born again believer has the indwelling of the Spirit; but not all have experienced the infilling of the Spirit. I haven't read Chris Oyakhilome's book as you prescribed, but there's something you missed/mixed up that I should share with you:

layi:

The rod u talked about is called the mantle. Read Chris Oyakhilome's book on "The oil and the mantle". Those 2 items symbolises the annointing. They didnt have the infilling on the holy spirit but he was present in the oil and the mantle.

I'm not sure if you had taken a look at some OT verses clearly teaching that these dear servants had the Spirit of God both dwelling in and infilling them:

# Gen. 41:38 - "And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?" [referring to Joseph].

# Exo. 28:3 - "And thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office."

# Exo. 31:3 - "And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship." [see also Exo. 35:31]

# Num. 27:18 - "And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay thine hand upon him."

Deut. 34:9 - "And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the Spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses."

I don't know what Chris has taught about these, but I'll rest content with what the Word of God says than with what any pastor writes in his own book. The Spirit of God dwelt in and filled these men, and there's no denying that fact. The apostle in the NT recognised that fact as well: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Pet. 1:11). For someone to teach that the Spirit was present in the oil and the mantle and not in the ministers themselves is to twist the Bible (no harm meant to you; but if that's what Oyaks is teaching, I'm running far!).

layi:

You can't compare the mantle wit a gun. the holy spirit cannot be symbolised wit a gun because a gun never does anything good.

I did not compare a mantle with a gun. That still does not mean that a policeman or military personnel cannot be saved and called to ministry. There's no minister today going about with a mantle or rod as Moses did back then, and the mantle is not what qualifies a man for divine service. It is only the Spirit of God that can truly anoint a man for service, and there's no man on the face of the earth today to instruct God on whom He chooses to call or not. The Holy Spirit cannot be symbolised by a mantle in as much the same way that He cannot be symbolised by a gun. Moses had his mantle even before God called him; and the mantle did not make him more anointed than if he wore just a pair of jeans and military boots.

(okay, cool down. . . I may tease some; but I'm serious )

There is a difference in the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and Today.

"Have them come to The Tent Of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of The Spirit that is on you and put The Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so you will not have to carry it alone." (Numbers 11:16-17)

What's the difference? In the Old Testament book of Numbers, when Moses was complaining because the burden of leading all the people had become so weighty it was about to crush him, he pled for relief from God. God told him to gather seventy of the elders of Israel in order to take from the Spirit that was upon Moses and distribute it to the seventy so they could help him lead the people of Israel. That's exactly what the text said happened. God then gave this charismatic empowering, this special gift, to seventy other people, not just Moses, so that they could all participate in ministry. That was not regeneration or sanctification, it was an empowering for ministry given only to select individuals. Moses' prayer was, 'Oh, that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them!' (Num. 11:29). What Moses prayed for became a prophecy in the pen of the prophet Joel, who said that in the latter days that's exactly what would happen. And on the day of Pentecost it did happen. The apostle Peter said that it was about this that Joel was writing, that now the Spirit to empower the church for ministry is given to everybody, not just to the leaders.

Just because we have the Spirit indwelling us personally, it does not mean that He has had the same relationship with all believers of all times. Indeed, we are unique to all ages in the past in that we DO have the Spirit living within us.

The Spirit was limited in the Old Testament period. He did not indwell every believer. Isa. 59:21 does promise a different and better ministry in the future for the Jew. This will be fulfilled in the end time. Joel 2:28-29 looks forward to this time as well. Peter mentioned that this was what happened on the day of Pentecost, yet the entire text looks to the end times for a complete fulfillment. This is one of the cases where we see a partial fulfillment of an Old Testament prophecy, and a yet future COMPLETE fulfillment at a later date in time.

The Spirit in the Old Testament had a general ministry to the nation of Israel. The Spirit was given to the Israelites for the purpose of instruction (Neh. 9:20). There was an aspect of teaching via the Holy Spirit even in the Old Testament. We, however, see this much clearer in the New Testament times when every believer has that teaching in residence.

FACTS prooving that the holy spirit did not indwell all believers in the old testament as he does now;

a. David knew that the Spirit could be taken from him. (Ps. 51:11. I Sam. 16:13 mentions the occurrence of the Spirit coming upon David. It was at his anointing by Samuel.) This to me seems to have been a situation that might well have been very frustrating to the Old Testament believer. To know the ministry of the Spirit and to know that He might not be there the next day would have been a worrisome thing. Imagine the sinking feeling that Samson must have had when he knew that the Spirit's power was removed from him.


There is a sense in which we should see this concept within the church. We know that the Holy Spirit cannot be taken from us, but we should also remember that when we walk in our own power the Spirit has little, if any, input into our lives and ministries. We know that all have the Spirit in full measure, however if the Spirit is not in control, He might as well not be present. The key in this age is to allow the Spirit free movement in our hearts and minds.


b. The Spirit departed from king Saul. I Sam. 16:14, "But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him." Again we see that the Spirit was not resident in the believers. He did come upon individuals at times, but there is no indication that there was an indwelling of the Spirit as there is in the New Testament.

Indeed, indwelling was an impossibility in the Old Testament. He is the seal of our salvation, and salvation had not been provided as yet in the Old Testament. The Old Testament saint was awaiting his completed salvation. Their sin was only covered until the Lord Jesus could care for their sins.

c. The craftsmen of the Old Testament were especially helped with the Spirit for their work (Ex. 28:3; 31:3). It must have been very special to these men to see their skills enhanced by the work of the Spirit. These were craftsmen and yet the Spirit was upon them in a special way for this ministry unto the Lord.

In like manner, as we see the Holy Spirit working through us, we also ought to be amazed and astounded by what He can do through us if we make ourselves a channel for Him to work through.

d. The Spirit came upon Othniel the judge. Jud. 3:10, "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, "

As we go out into the ministry, let us rely on His wisdom in our working with God's people and see to it that we do not rely on our own wisdom!

e. The Spirit came upon Gideon. Jud. 6:34, "But the Spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon, " The fact that the Spirit came indicates that He was not already there, thus proving that there was no full time indwelling. For God's leadership over His people, He seems to like men that are sensitive to Him so that He may lead His people through His leaders.

f. The Spirit came upon others as well. Jephthah, Jud. 11:29; Samson, Jud. 14:6.

g. The Spirit was in some. Joseph, Gen. 41:37,38. Just what is meant by the Spirit being in someone in the Old Testament we don't know. We do know that the New testament speaks to the fact that the Spirit had not been given to the believer as yet. Jo. 14:17 tells us that the Spirit did not indwell, in the Old Testament economy as He was to do in the Church age. ", and shall be in you." Jo. 7:37-39 also shows the Spirit was yet to be given.

It might be suggested that it appeared that the Spirit was indwelling because of the work and effect in the Old Testament believers life. This would not require that it be fact, only that it appeared to be so. If a man was allowing the Lord to have His way in his life, then it would surely appear that the Lord was with, or in them.

h. Ezekiel records that the Spirit came twice to him in the first three chapters of his book. If the Spirit came a second time He had to have left. This again proves that there was no indwelling, as we know it, in the Old Testament. Ezek. 2:2, Ezek. 3:24.


culled from several sources including bible.org,open.org etc

I hope we have not deviated

God can call anybody, even a policeman. But once God calls a Nigerian policeman, he has to leave that job! There is way too much corruption in the Nigerian Police Force. *apologies* If it's your hand that will cause you to sin, then cut it off! Same goes for your job,this job in question. I doubt that someone can practise true Pentecostal Christianity whilst being a Nigerian policeman.

I doubt as well

@layi,

No, we have not deviated - I was thrown off the net a while back; and indeed I appreciate your labour and patience. As I read along it occured to me that certain lines were familiar because I had read them before - and when I got to the bottom of the page, I saw indeed that bible.org was one of them.

The problem is that those fellows at Bible.org are great scholars, but there are some things that they won't tell you because they would immediately dissolve most of the stuff they had written. So they take a convenient backpedal off the stage; for example:

layi:

g. The Spirit was in some. Joseph, Gen. 41:37,38. Just what is meant by the Spirit being in someone in the Old Testament we don't know.

This view that we don't know what is meant by such texts as Gen. 41:37-38 is taken by scholars who have a difficulty with John 7:39 - "for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." The Bible does not teach that God never 'gave' the Spirit to anyone before Jesus was glorified; and Neh. 9:20 shows precisely He had done so in the OT before the First Advent of Jesus: "Thou gavest also thy good Spirit to instruct them." So, what was John 7:39 trying to tell us?

Read it in its context: Jesus connected the promise in vs. 38 to what the OT Scriptures had prophesied in symbolic language, particularly *Psa. 36:8-9 and Isa. 44:3-4 (see below). Consider that 'living water' is a picture of 'refreshing' which is signified by the power and freshness of the Spirit. Of course, some in the OT had experienced a foretaste of this, but John 7:39 says that the Spirit had not been given - in the context of being an on-going experience: this is what that verse means when it says that the Spirit had not been given - He had not been given in the context of what Jesus declared; not that He had never at anytime been given at all to anyone in the OT.

See the explanation below:
________________________

*Here I've quoted in full the Psa. 36:8-9 and Isa. 44:3-4 ~~

# Psa. 36:8-9 - "They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures. For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light."

The 'river of pleasures and fountain of life' point clearly to Jesus' bold declaration and invitaion in John 7:38 - "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." The result of this flowing rivers of water is that "they shall be abundantly satisfied" as in Psa. 36:8.

# Isa. 44:3-4 - "For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses."

Notice that in this passage, "pouring out water" is figurative of "pouring out the Spirit" - the result of which is a "springing up". But it does mention that the condition is that they "thirst" - "him that is thirsty" . . . the very same thing the Lord Jesus alluded to in John 7:37 - " If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink." Now if they did so, the result will be vs. 38, as explained in vs. 39 - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
________________________

So, the point is that I agree with what you just said above in many things; but it does not appear to me that your earlier statements (which presumably Pastor Chris Oyakhilome taught in his book) are Biblically sound.

I believe that God can call anyone, whoever they are. If the person holds a questionable job, he/she would have to give that up. I should be more inclined to say that anointing for divine service does not make sense if someone is holding unto a questionable position.

Yes you can but you must be able to give God some quality time.

Paul made tents to support himself, during his mission trips so he didn't have to bother the ppl he went to minister to.

Considering the meagre salary of pastors in Nigeria, i believe it is best to find a secular job that gives you enough time to pastor a church so that you would not be tempted to steal church money.

It depends on the specifics of your calling, if you believe that God has called you into fulltime ministry, then you have no business doing any other job.

this poster needs english developmental   class or english 1301. whats this all about? no thesis statement or issue, what an idiot

Lol. . MP007, he's not an idiot. He could have given more pointers to what he meant, but don't be upset with him.

I'm fully persuaded that one who is specifically called to ministry can maintain a secular job as well - unless God impresses it upon the minister to give it up completely.

100% right