I was recently involved in the, “What does Seun believe?” thread. I am NOT trying to resurrect it. The discussion has been on my mind since that time. Some said that they could not understand how God could allow Satan to tempt good people, and then condemn them to hell for succumbing to that temptation. There were also those who thought it was unfair that God allows bad things to happen to good people. I am not here to preach or to argue. I am not here to try to change anyone’s mind, or condemn any religion or belief. I would simply like to get the thoughts rolling around in my brain, out.

For anyone who feels that God is unfair, I offer this: The belief that God “allows” temptation, or that He allows bad things to happen is inaccurate. I believe, it is BECAUSE people are good that Satan concentrates on them. Satan does not bother with those who are wicked. They belong to him already. He has no reason to concern himself with them. He concentrates his efforts on those who are trying to do their best. He revels in chaos and confusion. It is not God, but Satan, who is responsible when bad things happen to good people. This is my opinion. I am not trying to step on anyone else’s beliefs.

In the previously mentioned thread I talked about “free agency.” My statement was this: One of Gods greatest gifts, aside from the Atonement, is “Free Agency.” We all have it. Unfortunately, we have no control over others, who may impose their agency on us. The influence of others in our lives and the lives of those we love is not God’s acquiescence (acceptance). It is simply His respect for the gift He has given us.

I say again, I did not bring this up because I want to reintroduce the “Seun” discussion. I simply wanted to get these things off my mind.

@ Seun: I regret not taking the opportunity to introduce myself to you and say, "Hello." My name is Gerri. That is pronounced (Jerry) like the man’s name. It was a pleasure making your acquaintance, if only in cyberspace. “Hello” How dey go dey go?

I believe the following:
1. GOD is Just. HE instituted principles which govern life and can operate independently. Men can interact and relate with these systems with varying results.
2. HE reveals these principles to us in HIS Word and hence, everyone who hears and obeys, automatically gains an advantage in dealing with and succeeding on life.
3. HE does not and will not impose HIS will on anyone, but calls on all men to trust HIM, and depend on HIM, akin to your Free Agency theory.
4. HE can intervene on the behalf of anyone who asks and believes HIM to do so.
5. The enemy fully aware of these systems, tries to manipulate them to his advantage by keeping people ignorant of them. He often succeeds because people think they can handle the situation themselves without GOD.

N.B: I use the word 'system' as above, for want of a better description

Thank you for your contribution. I like

There is the inconsistency of Free Agency and Sin. If God grants man the free agency, to do whatever he likes and be responsible for the natural consequences, then it would be an evil to restrict and eliminate such agency. On the other hand, Sin being the disobedience of God's commands entirely diminshes free will, in the sense that man is compelled with the duty of obeying God rather than following his individual judgement.

A command leaves no room for discretion and demands obedience only.

so, where is the over flogged response to ebamma's quote?

the omniscient god allows Satan to tempt his own children knowing fully well they would succumbed to the temptation right before the Satan begins it
and still punishes u for falling for the temptation

smh for this ridiculously dramatic god self

You are right Texanomaly... God doesnt tempt anyone.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" (James 1:13).

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1:14).

And secondly as you have said that good people are tempted or good people go through sufferings e.t.c.

"Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" (Job 4:7).<<<so now you see that an innocent person does not perish, what happens is this, God refines His people in the furnace of affliction to draw them closer to Him, and if the righteous endure to the end, then it will be a bigger reward for them. How can you be righteous when you havent faced challengers to prove yourself?

"Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins." (Psalm 7:9). <<< yes the death, the sufferings e.t.c God does them all, the bad things He does it but He doesnt tempt anyone to sin.

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." (1 Samuel 2:6).

deut 32 vs 39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

AMOS 3 VS 6 shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

PROVERBS 16 VS 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea,
even the wicked for the day of evil

Like you said everyone one has a free will, its either you choose the devil in you or Christ in you, when afflictions come, as a righteous person you over come it.. Nice write up, it was a good read.

nu-well:
I believe the following:
1. GOD is Just. HE instituted principles which govern life and can operate independently. Men can interact and relate with these systems with varying results.
2. HE reveals these principles to us in HIS Word and hence, everyone who hears and obeys, automatically gains an advantage in dealing with and succeeding on life.
3. HE does not and will not impose HIS will on anyone, but calls on all men to trust HIM, and depend on HIM, akin to your Free Agency theory.
4. HE can intervene on the behalf of anyone who asks and believes HIM to do so.
5. The enemy fully aware of these systems, tries to manipulate them to his advantage by keeping people ignorant of them. He often succeeds because people think they can handle the situation themselves without GOD.

N.B: I use the word 'system' as above, for want of a better description

Word.

The only problem is I am only able to like this post once.

9jadelta: so, where is the over flogged response to ebamma's quote?

the omniscient god allows Satan to tempt his own children knowing fully well they would succumbed to the temptation right before the Satan begins it
and still punish u for falling for the temptation

smh for this ridiculously dramatic god self

Let me put it this way.

In order for you to have "free will" or @texanomaly's "free agency" God cannot disallow Satan from setting his own way before you.

If God restricts Satan from displaying his own part to you, and only allows you to see only his side, how can you be said to have free moral agency?

God doesn't "allow" temptation, so he can get a sadistic kick out of punishing you later. He gives you a choice - this is my way and this is the other way.

You then have the "free will" to choose.

Kay 17: There is the inconsistency of Free Agency and Sin. If God grants man the free agency, to do whatever he likes and be responsible for the natural consequences, then it would be an evil to restrict and eliminate such agency. On the other hand, Sin being the disobedience of God's commands entirely diminshes free will, in the sense that man is compelled with the duty of obeying God rather than following his individual judgement.

A command leaves no room for discretion and demands obedience only.

On the contrary, God does not restrict free agency. This is the reason why there is so much pain and suffering in the world.

Imagine if God had restricted the free will of people like Osama or Hitler, life would have been so much better...

God typically does not interfere in man's activities - he intervenes when the marra don 2 much.

Anyway, I guess you mean that punishment for sin "restricts" man's right to choose in a manner?

True.

But really, should God not punish evil?

^
god's freewill is too questionable.
god doesnt allow temptation, but he allowed satan to tempt job right? he knew job would never fall for the temptation right before satan started it because his is omniscient, but he still allowed satan to go ahead anyway. he watched as satan killed all jobs innocent children for nothing. (dont forget that those children were living things too and probably believed in the god of their father). but they were mere pawns in god and satan's chess game that they both knew what the outcome would be.

which brings me back to the question, why allow these things to happen?

why create freewill to chose whatever u want and still punish whoever decided to chose wrongly.

Jeremiah 1:5 NIV - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.

note that verse. god was talking to a prophet there... god created him to be a prophet right from the start.. he knew the wouldn't have a choice than to be a prophet even if he was killer before he became prophet like saul. god knows it would happen that way anyway


god knew what i would become cos he created me that way, why punish me again for doing what he created me to do?

Refined and polished lies from Gerri. Thanks dear....I LOVE THE WAY YOU LIE

9jadelta: ^
god's freewill is too questionable.
god doesnt allow temptation, but he allowed satan to tempt job right?

I said;

God doesn't "allow" temptation, so he can get a sadistic kick out of punishing you later

9jadelta: he knew job would never fall for the temptation right before satan started it because his is omniscient, but he still allowed satan to go ahead anyway. he watched as satan killed all jobs innocent children for nothing. (dont forget that those children were living things too and probably believed in the god of their father). but they were mere pawns in god and satan's chess game that they both knew what the outcome would be.

which brings me back to the question, why allow these things to happen?

The Job thing was a very, very, did I say very, special case, to prove something very specific to Satan.

About the children, God gave Job children after the test. Since he was the person who created the initial children, and he is in charge of life and death, how do we know if he did not just recycle those very same children and return them to Job?

9jadelta: why create freewill to chose whatever u want and still punish whoever decided to chose wrongly.

Why did God create free will? Truth is only him can tell for a fact.

Why punish those who decide to choose wrongly? Because every choice has a consequence.

If for example, I choose to go and buy kalashin from aba market, and put a bullet in your head, do you think it would be right if God said "ah well, he's just exercising his free will"?

What about your own free will which I just ended?

Even man/society punishes people for bad choices.

9jadelta: Jeremiah 1:5 NIV - “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart.

note that verse. god was talking to a prophet there... god created him to be a prophet right from the start.. he knew the wouldn't have a choice than to be a prophet even if he was killer before he became prophet like saul. god knows it would happen that way anyway


god knew what i would become cos he created me that way, why punish me again for doing what he created me to do?

Au contraire mon cher ami,

The verse is only saying God choose Jeremiah for a special assignment even from his mother's womb.

It is not insinuating that God sadistically creates evil people for laughs.

Hmm... This guy is ugly, lemme make him an armed robber... This girl is pretty, lemme make her a prostitute... This guy is nice, I'll send him to america, this other guy is annoying, lemme send him to nigeria

Like someone once said;

Nobody is created for evil, we just have our own unique circumstances to overcome...

You have your choice in the matter.

rapture_ready:

Let me put it this way.

In order for you to have "free will" or @texanomaly's "free agency" God cannot disallow Satan from setting his own way before you.

If God restricts Satan from displaying his own part to you, and only allows you to see only his side, how can you be said to have free moral agency?

God doesn't "allow" temptation, so he can get a sadistic kick out of punishing you later. He gives you a choice - this is my way and this is the other way.

You then have the "free will" to choose.

of what use is the choice when you already know what i am going to do with it?

Can God ever tamper with my freewill or any other person's?

I don't share the view that God does not allow things happen because it portrays God as a less than Omnipotent being. Sin is not directly from God but he allows it to happen because of the freedom he gave to man.

I know for a fact that God can do all things within the sphere of logical posibilities and whatever he does not directly 'wrath' or allow to happen CANNOT happen.

Thus it would be appropriate to say that whatever is: whether good or bad, is directly or indirectly from God because without him existence will be non-existent.

GeneralShepherd: Can God ever tamper with my freewill or any other person's?

God can but the question is: will he?

Nahum777: You are right Texanomaly... God doesnt tempt anyone.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" (James 1:13).

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James 1:14).

And secondly as you have said that good people are tempted or good people go through sufferings e.t.c.

"Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?" (Job 4:7).<<<so now you see that an innocent person does not perish, what happens is this, God refines His people in the furnace of affliction to draw them closer to Him, and if the righteous endure to the end, then it will be a bigger reward for them. How can you be righteous when you havent faced challengers to prove yourself?

"Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins." (Psalm 7:9). <<< yes the death, the sufferings e.t.c God does them all, the bad things He does it but He doesnt tempt anyone to sin.

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." (1 Samuel 2:6).

deut 32 vs 39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

AMOS 3 VS 6 shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

PROVERBS 16 VS 4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea,
even the wicked for the day of evil

Like you said everyone one has a free will, its either you choose the devil in you or Christ in you, when afflictions come, as a righteous person you over come it.. Nice write up, it was a good read.

Free will is nothing but illusion, is what i call the depth of satan. Is there anything a man does on earth that is without a course? If something courses u to do something either good or bad how can u call such a thing as free will. Think about it whole heartedly.