With the dead toll in the Burma cyclone disaster set to hit 100,000, (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=564119&in_page_id=1811) one cannot help but feel how an omnibenevolent god could unleash such devastating tragedy on his beloved children. I cannot also help thinking that amongst the dead would be hundreds of people who said their prayers daily and fervently and sincerely believed in him. Yet he callously and contemptously disregards the pleads of these people but instead sends one of the most distructive forces of nature their way. Nothing does more to undermine the notion of an omnibenevolent god than his own supposed creation.

Shall we all spare a moment of thought for those hapless victims of the disaster.

@Huxley: God did not forget them. He does not forget anyone, including people who do not even acknowledge Him. The case of Maynamar is resting aquarely on the shoulders of the Military junta dictatorship that is ruling them.

The USA is trying very hard to send aids to them. But they will not accept it in empty pride, so much so that they refuse to grant entry permissions to the US Relief contigents. Call America what you want, but it is never a country that fails in her obligation to at least debate within her citizenry a process of doing good for the people who are in distress.

And just my opinion, the leadership of maynamar needs to be replaced, if there is any that needs to be replaced around the world. here is a terrible and worse than empty rhetoric; puffing up when you can not even take care of your living and then dehumanizing your dead.

Are the dictators not the ones to be blamed here?

@huxley
Think about this scenario =>

Let us say that a tree fell on the dog's leg during a storm and cut the leg off.
The storm was not evil; the tree was not evil; the falling was not evil; the dog was not evil.
The lightning struck the tree and broke the branch.
The branch fell and broke the leg of the dog that happened to be running along under it in the storm.
Everything here is operating as it should according to its own nature.


Question => Does this conclusively PROVE that God does not exist?

Imhotep and Alhaji,
don't bother, huxley is beyond reasoning, he has already made up his mind on God.

therationa,
 I just simply want to say that since you don't believe God exists in the first place, why are you then turning around and blaming Him for this?    I thot God doesn't exist, how then can He be responsible for this? you see your duplicity and confusion?

JeSoul:

therationa,
I just simply want to say that since you don't believe God exists in the first place, why are you then turning around and blaming Him for this?

Good question, my sister.

JeSoul:

I thot God doesn't exist, how then can He be responsible for this? you see your duplicity and confusion?

Abi ---> God does not exist; but He is responsible for the cyclone at Burma. Absurd.

Confused People


Although they could argue that we on the other hand are saying that  God exists and is in control of the universe yet He did not make this happen.
Who's responsible then? Or does huxley believe there's no satan either

@huxley
I have posted this for you before =>


If, as claimed by humanism, man were born only to be happy, he would not be born to die. Since his body is doomed to death, his task on earth evidently must be more spiritual: not a total engrossment in everyday life, not the search for the best ways to obtain material goods and then their carefree consumption.

It has to be the fulfillment of a permanent, earnest duty so that one's life journey may become above all an experience of moral growth: to leave life a better human being than one started it.

It is imperative to reappraise the scale of the usual human values; its present incorrectness is astounding.



--------------------------------------
Source => http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/SolzhenitsynHarvard.php

The author, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, was locked up by the [atheistic] communists for many many many years.

You guys have completely missed the thrust of my post. I was making argument for the existence of evil. The Argument for Evil (AE) is one of the strongest and unsettling challenge for conventional theism. It basically states - if there is a benevolent god, then how come all the evil and suffering in the world. Either there is no god(s) OR the gods such as may exist are indifferent to the plight of his creation - hence the occurence of evil.

Those of you who are accusing me of inconsistency, you simple do not understand the nature of the debate.  On this post, I was assuming there is a god and from that standpoint, I am trying to reconcile such a god with the existence of evil. Is a god compatible with the existence of evil? OR alternatively, is omnibenevolence not one of god's attributes?

olabowale:

@Huxley: God did not forget them. He does not forget anyone, including people who do not even acknowledge Him. The case of Maynamar is resting aquarely on the shoulders of the Military junta dictatorship that is ruling them.

The USA is trying very hard to send aids to them. But they will not accept it in empty pride, so much so that they refuse to grant entry permissions to the US Relief contigents. Call America what you want, but it is never a country that fails in her obligation to at least debate within her citizenry a process of doing good for the people who are in distress.

And just my opinion, the leadership of maynamar needs to be replaced, if there is any that needs to be replaced around the world. here is a terrible and worse than empty rhetoric; puffing up when you can not even take care of your living and then dehumanizing your dead.

Are the dictators not the ones to be blamed here?

This natural disaster was certainly NOT caused by the military regime in that country. Of course, response to the disaster is something within the province  of the government. So removing the regime will NOT guarantee the non-occurence of similar natural disasters in the future.

Huxley sorry, but the heavens belong to our God, and the earth has He given to the sons of men. That's in the bible. Men directly or indirectly cause all that happens on the earth. I can't say exactly why the Myamar cyclone happened. Maybe it's global warming's effects, that has nothing to do with religion. init?

A_K_O:

Maybe it's global warming's effects, that has nothing to do with religion. init?

Global warming is caused by men (and women) who, like huxley, pursue science with all their might; often to the detriment of everything else.

imhotep:

often to the detriment of everything else.

_{**puts Huxley out of the picture and says:***}

like according to Al Gore, the economy. As if there would be an economy if there was no earth. Anyway that's just an aside.
Imhotep where have you been?

A_K_O:

Imhotep where have you been?

My brother, I have been tied up with work and deadlines, and more work. How are you doing?

I'm cool, a lot more free than you, all the best in your work.

huxley:

You guys have completely missed the thrust of my post. I was making argument for the existence of evil. The Argument for Evil (AE) is one of the strongest and unsettling challenge for conventional theism. It basically states - if there is a benevolent god, then how come all the evil and suffering in the world. Either there is no god(s) OR the gods such as may exist are indifferent to the plight of his creation - hence the occurence of evil.

  very funny.
How come then you are only going to challenge God's existence and not the devil?

You guys provide me with comic relief. You're claiming God must be aloof and uncaring because all this evil happens, when the bible has taught in so many ways the devil is here specifically to steal, kill and destroy - why don't you try blaming the devil for a change? why? or like my brotha said, maybe its just the effects of global warming or some other natural occuring phenomena?
did the thot ever occur to you and the other 'therorizers' that maybe its not that God is indifferent to the plight of mankind but that the devil could also be responsible for so much evil that we see? or that natural disasters are just that, natural and hence occur. think about that.
 and while you're thinking flip to the Old Testament. . . you will see many instances of natural disasters that God caused and some that He didn't. The answers are already in front of you if only you'll soften your heart and recieve it.

Those of you who are accusing me of inconsistency, you simple do not understand the nature of the debate.  On this post, I was assuming there is a god and from that standpoint, I am trying to reconcile such a god with the existence of evil.

  yeah whatever dude, you got caught  . If you were indeed only assuming from the onset, why didn't you make that explicitly clear? You got caught dude, admit it.

huxley:

You guys have completely missed the thrust of my post. I was making argument for the existence of evil. The Argument for Evil (AE) is one of the strongest and unsettling challenge for conventional theism. It basically states - if there is a benevolent god, then how come all the evil and suffering in the world. Either there is no god(s) OR the gods such as may exist are indifferent to the plight of his creation - hence the occurence of evil.

Those of you who are accusing me of inconsistency, you simple do not understand the nature of the debate. On this post, I was assuming there is a god and from that standpoint, I am trying to reconcile such a god with the existence of evil. Is a god compatible with the existence of evil? OR alternatively, is omnibenevolence not one of god's attributes?

@huxley

I have once suggested that you read a book titled "Smouldering Fire: the work of the Holy Spirit".
You can get an online copy here => http://www.martinisrael.u-net.com/fire/index.html

THE THEME of this book is the problem of good and evil and their reconciliation in Christ.

Though, it seems to me that you need to let go of atheism [for a while] in order to read this book. Ouch.

@huxley
There is always a great danger in holding on too tightly to ONE idea and trying to explain the whole of reality with this one idea. This is termed 'value rigidity' in some schools of thought.

Without meaning to be offensive, I will relate to you the story of the 'South Indian Monkey Trap' that uses this sort of situation to catch monkeys.



-------------THE SOUTH INDIAN MONKEY TRAP ------------
The trap consists of a hollowed-out coconut chained to a stake. The coconut has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole. The hole is big enough so that the monkey’s hand can go in, but too small for his fist with rice in it to come out.

The monkey reaches in and is suddenly trapped, by nothing more than his own value rigidity.
He can’t revalue the rice. He cannot see that freedom without rice is more valuable than capture with it. The villagers are coming to get him and take him away.


They’re coming closer—closer! -- now!

What general advice, not specific advice, but what general advice would you give the poor monkey in circumstances like this?

Oh dear, Oh dear, Oh dear - some of you really have to be spoon-fed.

Is it not obvious that if I am arguing for the non-existence of god (or supernatural beings), that also implies the non-existence of satan/devil/lucifer etc.

The operative concept in this thread are;


1) If there is a God, is he omnibenevolent?
2) Is he the creator of everything or can somethings exist that was not created by the said god?


Interesting how none of the respondents have been able to suss this out from the main post. If you must respond, may you try and tackle the two points above.

@Huxley

I am not sure that you opened this thread to show sympathy to the people of Burma. It seems you opened it to blame God for the disaster that happened in Burma. You often ask those who believe in God to provide evidence. You have again posed two questions. On those questions, you already have a thesis on each one of them. For a change, kindly detail your own view on those questions. Believers in God can then question your own thesis. You are an atheist and your two questions can be reframed as follows

a. What is the atheist explanation for what happened in Burma

b. Since you donot believe in God, what is the atheist explanation for the origin of all creations

Kindly provide your answers.

m_nwankwo:

@Huxley

I am not sure that you opened this thread to show sympathy to the people of Burma. It seems you opened it to blame God for the disaster that happened in Burma. You often ask those who believe in God to provide evidence. You have again posed two questions. On those questions, you already have a thesis on each one of them. For a change, kindly detail your own view on those questions. Believers in God can then question your own thesis. You are an atheist and your two questions can be reframed as follows

a. What is the atheist explanation for what happened in Burma

b. Since you donot believe in God, what is the atheist explanation for the origin of all creations

Kindly provide your answers.

I opened this thread for several reasons;

1) I was appalled at the absence of any public show of sympathy amongst the members of Nairaland for the catastrophy in Burma. This is not to say that individual are (were) not sympathetic, but to think that something as momentous as that could go without so much as a public recognition and "Christian" charity smacks of double standards when the theists are first to always publically declare their gratitude when something "good" happens. But they hide in their blankets when disasters such as this happens.

2) To discuss the nature of the supposed god and how he permits such natural disasters in his beloved earth.

a. What is the atheist explanation for what happened in Burma

b. Since you donot believe in God, what is the atheist explanation for the origin of all creations

Allow me to correct you, if I may. Your questions are poorly framed because you do not understand what atheism is, although I get the drift of the question. I shall restate the definition of atheism as follows;

The lack of a belief in god(s).


Notice how this does not say anything about existence/non-existence of god(s), natural disasters, football, marriages, dinosaurs etc.

Now, how does one come to not having a belief in god? There are many ways, but standardly, if I am told about an entity called god, I shall expect a reasonable and consistent definition of the god. I shall also expect this god to be consistent with the nature of reality. For instance, if I am told that he created humans in his image, how am I expected to understand that? Does he have a head, hands, blood etc like humans?

Such events like the tsunamis, cyclones, earthquakes, volcanoes are easily explained from a pure naturalistic perspective. That NATURE is indifferent to the plight of humans. They would strike irrespective of whether we are good or bad. In fact, many of these events occurred many millions of times even before humans came on the scene. Natural forces have no concern for the likes, dislikes, will of man.

The best explanation we have got the existence of nature is that the known universe was created from the Big Bang about 14billion years ago. The scientific arguments for this are very strong indeed. Science does not currently have a plausible explanation for what cause the BB, or whether the current BB is only one of several, or whether there are multiverse.

Does theology offer a better explanation? Was it not theology that once said the earth is six thousand years old, that man was created fully-formed bipedal from day one, that a virgin birth is possible, that the earth is flat, that there was a global flood some 4000 years ago. Can we trust theology to say anything true and meaning about the nature of reality?

huxley:


2) To discuss the nature of the supposed god and how he permits such natural disasters in his beloved earth.

According to the bible:
Luke 4:  5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours."



Jesus did not accuse satan of lying. So it is true. You can interprete it which ever way you like but the answers are quite obvious. Cheers bro.




_{BTW Adam gave it to satan when he sinned.}

A_K_O:

According to the bible:
Luke 4: 5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours."

Jesus did not accuse satan of lying. So it is true. You can interprete it which ever way you like but the answers are quite obvious. Cheers bro.


_{BTW Adam gave it to satan when he sinned.}

Do you believed this literally happened? Do you think there is a place on earth high enough for "all the kingdoms of the world" to be within eyeshot? Or was this metaphoric? If it was metaphoric, why bother to "take him up a high place"?

Does this not indicate that these people believed the earth was flat? How else would one expect to see the whole world if the earth was not flat?

God just forgot some more thousands of people yesterday. He left them open, with no one to look over them. Now an earthquake has just come in and claim many of them.

God cannot and will never forget any. Know this:for everything that happens in life,
there is a purpose.Our God is a flawless God.

kola oloye:

God cannot and will never forget any. Know this:for everything that happens in life,
there is a purpose.Our God is a flawless God.

Whose purpose does it serve to have many thousands of people perish in a natural disaster? How do you know your god is flawless?

huxley:

How do you know your god is flawless?

Point of correction:The God am talking about is not god.[/b]He is the Alpha and the Omega,
our creator,the monarch of the universe,the one that can kill and make alive.He is errorless.

It is possible that the incident you were talking about was ochestrated by the devil or
[b]is there any proof that God was the one who killed them?

@Huxley

You guys have completely missed the thrust of my post. I was making argument for the existence of evil. The Argument for Evil (AE) is one of the strongest and unsettling challenge for conventional theism. It basically states - if there is a benevolent god, then how come all the evil and suffering in the world. Either there is no god(s) OR the gods such as may exist are indifferent to the plight of his creation - hence the occurence of evil.

We understand the thrust of your post. And in I.s.la.m, it is well known that there exist good and evil. Evil exists among jinns, man, and animals. The Benevolent God provides us the road map.blue print to live a good and obedient life. he provides warnings against doing evil and the reward of such terrible deeds. Why do you thing thae Mu.sli.ms believe that there is paradise and there is hellfire?

And there is antidole against experiencing evil. First there are places before and after Mynamar that were afflicted by what afflicted Mynamar. And surprisingly, not all of Mynamar got hit. The world didnot perish by the desaster that occured in Mynamar. And so that you know, some part of the US just suffered some desasters as well.

As to the indifference of God, the truth is that some people were spared from death in all of the desaster in Mynamar. By thisdesaster, I am certain God has provided a means of improving those who survived it. Now they will build homes that are better suited for the destructions that they just experienced. We see from experience that humans learn and improve their suitablility on the conditions they have to deal with, from their experiences.

You can not blame God nor should you doubt His existence because humans experiencing desasters. Afterall, some are what we bring upon ourselves. I will not build homes with woods for example, but that does not mean that my home should be concrete cement blocks. There are other materials that are strong and rated for capability to withstand all the possibilities of calamities in each diffrent areas of the world. Yet the materials may be relatively inexpensive and affordable.

My point is that god has provided an antidote for all that may be burdensome to our existence. Even for every desease, there is cure. We just have to find it. The cure for denial is facing up to reality. The cure for ignorance of God which is what you suffer from (am sorry to say, ol boy), is asking yourself, could all of these have occurred if there is no God to make it happen and guide it?

The way an atheist talks of God is very provocative.
@huxley
Let me tell you, from the Is'lamic point of view. The cyclone that occured some days ago was not caused as a result of global warming or Satan, because Mus'lims clearly know Satan has no such power and to God alone belongs the power of the heavens and the earth.

In the Ko'ran God says: We never destroy a township while its dwellers were doing right.

God knows best why it happened but believe me, the government of a nation can lead to its destruction if all they do is rebellion!That is why people should encourage goodness, and if they have no power to overthrow their wicked government-they should migrate to other places. In order to save themselves of the fierce doom!

To say God is uncaring or doesn't exist is just ungratefulness. Let me ask you, if such a thing happens where you live, can you do anything to save yourself?Answer if you speak the truth. We're God's whether you deny Him or not. And God requites people that they may heed to His call.
If a nation serves God, believe me-there will be no problems of earthquake or any natural disaters, and don't let science fool you. The lesson is to show us that without God, we're nothing!

Frizy:

The way an atheist talks of God is very provocative.
@huxley
Let me tell you, from the Is'lamic point of view. The cyclone that occured some days ago was not caused as a result of global warming or Satan, because Mus'lims clearly know Satan has no such power and to God alone belongs the power of the heavens and the earth.

In the Ko'ran God says: We never destroy a township while its dwellers were doing right.

God knows best why it happened but believe me, the government of a nation can lead to its destruction if all they do is rebellion!That is why people should encourage goodness, and if they have no power to overthrow their wicked government-they should migrate to other places. In order to save themselves of the fierce doom!

To say God is uncaring or doesn't exist is just ungratefulness. Let me ask you, if such a thing happens where you live, can you do anything to save yourself?Answer if you speak the truth. We're God's whether you deny Him or not. And God requites people that they may heed to His call.
If a nation serves God, believe me-there will be no problems of earthquake or any natural disaters, and don't let science fool you. The lesson is to show us that without God, we're nothing!

How many people are killed yearly in Mecca as they go to serve their god?

huxley:

How many people are killed yearly in Mecca as they go to serve their god?

I don't get your point. Are you saying those you go for Haji and killed because of their weakness in their strength for stability at the execrise are the same to that verse? Come on, that is not a natural disaster, if there are many people rushing in a confide space anyone could stamp which could result to death.

Have you ever heard of a cyclone in Mecca after the prophet established Isl'am? Your analogy is very baseless.

@huxley
This curse of God was never lifted:

Genesis 3:17-19 ->

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.




----------------------------------------
It is wishful [and childish] thinking to expect the world to be without troubles.

How come there is all this disasters in the perfect creation of a perfect being? Why did he bother to create evil?

huxley:

How come there is all this disasters in the perfect creation of a perfect being? Why did he bother to create evil?

According to the account in Genesis, the justice of God demanded punishment for sins of Adam and Eve.

God cursed the earth; instead of cursing Man [who sinned in the first place].