The idea of forgiveness of sins is very central to christian faith. Infact the concept is so important that it is usually a part of every sermon and every prayer.

It goes somewhat like this:
God loves you so much that he has forgiven the sins of the world through the blood of Jesus. Come to jesus, no matter how sinful you are, and your sins are forgiven. Ask for forgiveness and you are forgiven.

Forgiveness of sins is so crucial to the christian message that without it, christianity would lose it's appeal.
There is no doubt that the prospect of having ones sins instantly washed away was what made christianity very appealing to the new converts of the early christian movement in Palestine.

Its is perhaps the most clever psychological play on the basic human need for acceptance, self -esteem and worthiness, irrespective of previous sins , transgressions and crimes - And, it's been working ever since.
If there was one thing that made the nascent christianity to overshadow all the competing cults of 1st century Palestine, it had to be the concept of forgiveness of sins.

Unlike other cults, sects or schools of philosophy that had strict moral and ethical requirements for membership, the christian cult did the exact opposite by opening it's membership to all, with emphasis on sinners and other rejects of society.
And although they were largely mocked and scorned by the authorities for this, it proved to be the engine of exponential growth for the christian movement.

In an ironic twist, even Paul, a self-confessed mass murderer of christians, at a later point in his life, had to avail himself of the of boon of eternal forgiveness that the christians, his victims, offered.

Even Emperor Constantine, warlord, mass murder and genocidal maniac who murdered his entire family line for power, had to, at a later point in his life, avail himself also of the boon of divine redemption through christianity, something that his original religion of Mithrianism did not offer. By getting Emperor Constantine on board, the small nascent cult went on to be become the worlds dominant religion in a very short time.

My personal opinion is that the forgiveness concept of christianity is mostly what led christianity away from its humble roots into a political and economic monstrosity that it became over the millenia.
Think about it. Everyone , especially political and religious figures, can go out and exploit, enslave, rap.e , burn and plunder, and then in the still of night,whip out the bible and invoke the forgiveness clause and Viola! everything is wiped clean for yet another day.
This is exactly what human nature demands.

However, there are too many contradictions in this forgiveness concept when one juxtaposes it with other christian beliefs such as armagedon, rapture, judgement day and eternal damnation in hell fire.

When you look at all these beliefs, its impossible to figure out which comes first, which comes in between, and which comes last. Infact, that would depend on which christian sect you belong to.

For example, jesus died for all my sins- meaning that I am free of sins, right?. But which sins, the ones I committed yesterday, today or the ones I will definitely commit tomorrow?. How dos that make any sense?

If jesus already died for my sins, then why do I even need to ask god in prayer for forgiveness?

If jesus wiped away my sins and god accepts my prayers of forgiveness everyday, then what is the purpose of final judgement?

Who is going to hell since everyone is already sinless through the blood of jesus?

But now lets get to the meat of the matter.
The concept of forgiveness of sins is very very silly. But ofcourse, it is human nature to ignore what is obvious to embrace what is illogical as long as it is capable of catering to our human shortcomings.

Though illogical and contradictory to biblical facts, we take refuge in the notion of forgiveness of sins because it hides us(we assume) from the natural justice of karma.
Karma is an ugly b.i.tch that nobody wants to face.

Now back to the bible.
Forgiveness of sins is a grand delusion. The bible, yes the bible, makes no mention of god, a.k.a Yahweh, ever ever granting forgiveness without first exacting his own system of measured justice.

I challange any and all christians to show anywhere in the bible where Yahweh forgave anyone or group without punishment.

The bible says that the wages of sin is death. Where does forgiveness fit in?

Jesus says " do not be deceived,for god cannot be mocked: As a man soweth, so shall he reapeth" .
Between sowing and reaping, where does forgiveness fit in?

In the lord's prayer jesus asked for forgiveness of trespasses. He did not assure or guarantee it.

We see in the bible that each time there was a transgression of Yahweh's commandments, appropriate punishment and restitution had to be made to balance the books.
That is the law of nature. The books always have to be balanced.

A thief has absolutely no right to the boon of forgiveness unless he returns all that he has stolen and submits himself for punishment according to the laws of the land.
Same goes for every sin and every crime.

Kneeling down in supplication and asking for blanket forgiveness without punishment and restitution is a waste of time, a delusion,
and you will find out on judgement day when you are burning in hell, or as Frosbel would prefer, a lake of fire.
Ha ha ha.

N:B
I would particularly like to hear from the Anony, Ihedinobi and other spin meisters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

mcfynest: Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

He certainly has childish and immature thoughts in the worst cases... an average thinking joe at best. but who am I to argue, my thoughts are simply human

YOU MUST BE OUT YO HEATHEN MIND IF YOU THINK WE FINNA READ ALL THAT THESIS SMDH

OH AND NOBODYS SINS ARE FORGIVEN, WELL OF COURSE EXCEPT THAT ONE TIME GRACE DEAL FOR THE ELECT. BUT ERMMM SINS ARE NOT FORGIVEN. THEY ARE FORGOTTEN AFTER YOU HAVE PAID FOR IT

obadiah777: OH AND NOBODYS SINS ARE FORGIVEN, WELL OF COURSE EXCEPT THAT ONE TIME GRACE DEAL FOR THE ELECT. BUT ERMMM SINS ARE NOT FORGIVEN. THEY ARE FORGOTTEN AFTER YOU HAVE PAID FOR IT

Thanks for agreeing with me , Lord Obadiah777

lagerwhenindoubt:

He certainly has childish and immature thoughts in the worst cases... an average thinking joe at best. but who am I to argue, my thoughts are simply human

Childish or immature, thought is still thought.

plaetton:
Thanks for agreeing with me , Lord Obadiah777

NO PROBS CEO CHIEF PLAETTON. GLAD WE CAN SEE EYE TO EYE ON THIS HERE ISSUE

And Jesus told peter put back ur sword for whosoever kill by the sword shall die by the sword. The same Jesus said u wil reap what u sow. If sin where to b forgiven Jesus woud'nt hv told peter that. The concept of sin and forgiven was invented by the councel that made christianity an official religion in Rome and that was why the pope was selling forgiveness for sins u wil commit in future. This doctrine of sin and forgive is what is destroying the world because a killer is killing with the hope that he is guaranteed of forgiveness. Actually i hv nt seen a personality in the bible that sin and was not punished for it not even David.

Wash me thoroughly [and repeatedly] from my iniquity and guilt and cleanse me and make me wholly pure from my sin! Psalm 51: 2

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14

O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, give heed and act! Do not delay, for Your own sake, O my God, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name. Daniel 9: 19

For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14

If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. 1 John 1: 9

Behold my affliction and my pain and forgive all my sins [of thinking and doing]. Psalm 25: 18

So also My heavenly Father will deal with every one of you if you do not freely forgive your brother from your heart his offenses. Matthew 18: 35


For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more. Hebrews 8: 12

He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more. Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin. Hebrews 10: 17-18


Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive]. Colossians 3: 13


For You, O Lord, are good, and ready to forgive [our trespasses, sending them away, letting them go completely and forever]; and You are abundant in mercy and loving-kindness to all those who call upon You. Psalm 86: 5

In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor. Ephesians 1: 7


So let it be clearly known and understood by you, brethren, that through this Man forgiveness and removal of sins is now proclaimed to you. Acts 13: 38

And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop. Mark 11:25


[The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins. Colossians 1: 13-14

And you who were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (your sensuality, your sinful carnal nature), [God] brought to life together with [Christ], having [freely] forgiven us all our transgressions. Colossians 2: 13

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is he who has forgiveness of his transgression continually exercised upon him, whose sin is covered. Psalm 32: 1 I

acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide. I said, I will confess my transgressions to the Lord [continually unfolding the past till all is told]--then You [instantly] forgave me the guilt and iniquity of my sin. Psalm 32: 5

mcfynest: Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Typical Christian Response. Always running from Debates.

dougivilla: Wash me thoroughly [and repeatedly] from my iniquity and guilt and cleanse me and make me wholly pure from my sin! Psalm 51: 2

If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves, pray, seek, crave, and require of necessity My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven, forgive their sin, and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7: 14

O Lord, hear! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, give heed and act! Do not delay, for Your own sake, O my God, because Your city and Your people are called by Your name. Daniel 9: 19

For if you forgive people their trespasses [their reckless and willful sins, leaving them, letting them go, and giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matthew 6: 14

If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. 1 John 1: 9

Behold my affliction and my pain and forgive all my sins [of thinking and doing]. Psalm 25: 18

So also My heavenly Father will deal with every one of you if you do not freely forgive your brother from your heart his offenses. Matthew 18: 35


For I will be merciful and gracious toward their sins and I will remember their deeds of unrighteousness no more. Hebrews 8: 12

He then goes on to say, And their sins and their lawbreaking I will remember no more. Now where there is absolute remission (forgiveness and cancellation of the penalty) of these [sins and lawbreaking], there is no longer any offering made to atone for sin. Hebrews 10: 17-18


Be gentle and forbearing with one another and, if one has a difference (a grievance or complaint) against another, readily pardoning each other; even as the Lord has [freely] forgiven you, so must you also [forgive]. Colossians 3: 13


For You, O Lord, are good, and ready to forgive [our trespasses, sending them away, letting them go completely and forever]; and You are abundant in mercy and loving-kindness to all those who call upon You. Psalm 86: 5

In Him we have redemption (deliverance and salvation) through His blood, the remission (forgiveness) of our offenses (shortcomings and trespasses), in accordance with the riches and the generosity of His gracious favor. Ephesians 1: 7


So let it be clearly known and understood by you, brethren, that through this Man forgiveness and removal of sins is now proclaimed to you. Acts 13: 38

And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop (leave it, let it go), in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your [own] failings and shortcomings and let them drop. Mark 11:25


[The Father] has delivered and drawn us to Himself out of the control and the dominion of darkness and has transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in Whom we have our redemption through His blood, [which means] the forgiveness of our sins. Colossians 1: 13-14

And you who were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh (your sensuality, your sinful carnal nature), [God] brought to life together with [Christ], having [freely] forgiven us all our transgressions. Colossians 2: 13

Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is he who has forgiveness of his transgression continually exercised upon him, whose sin is covered. Psalm 32: 1 I

acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide. I said, I will confess my transgressions to the Lord [continually unfolding the past till all is told]--then You [instantly] forgave me the guilt and iniquity of my sin. Psalm 32: 5

I commend you for your good effort.
However, all your references just reinforce my position that there is so much talk about forgiveness, but no biblical evidence to support the assumption that god forgives without commensurate punishment or recompense.

The biblical god, a.k.a Yahweh, in over 2000yrs of direct dealings with the hebrews, never ever forgave anyone without punishment.

plaetton:

I commend you for your good effort.
However, all your references just reinforce my position that there is so much talk about forgiveness, but no biblical evidence to support the assumption that god forgives without commensurate punishment or recompense.

The biblical god, a.k.a Yahweh, in over 2000yrs of direct dealings with the hebrews, never ever forgave anyone without punishment.

John 8;3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more!

Van snickers:

Typical Christian Response. Always running from Debates.

aint debating with you, iys just that that answers all the question, human brillancy can never comprehend God's supremacy. God forgive though you will be punished for your sins, the punishment is not eternal and your sins are forgotten. datz all

dougivilla: John 8;3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more!

Luke7: 46“ You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume.

47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.”49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”

50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Now what punishment did she undergo for her many sins prior to receiving forgiveness?

See also Matthew chapter 9:5, Mark2:1-12, Luke 5:23 for many others that received forgiveness without the recommended ''commensurate punnishment'' in your own words.

Isaiah 1:18-20 King James Version (KJV)

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.!!

plaetton:

I commend you for your good effort.
However, all your references just reinforce my position that there is so much talk about forgiveness, but no biblical evidence to support the assumption that god forgives without commensurate punishment or recompense.

The biblical god, a.k.a Yahweh, in over 2000yrs of direct dealings with the hebrews, never ever forgave anyone without punishment.

@ plaeton
dougivilla(m) has done the job for you, now tender your apologies, acknowledge your ignorance like a gentle man

plaetton: The idea of forgiveness of sins is very central to christian faith. Infact the concept is so important that it is usually a part of every sermon and every prayer.

It goes somewhat like this:
God loves you so much that he has forgiven the sins of the world through the blood of Jesus. Come to jesus, no matter how sinful you are, and your sins are forgiven. Ask for forgiveness and you are forgiven.

Forgiveness of sins is so crucial to the christian message that without it, christianity would lose it's appeal.
There is no doubt that the prospect of having ones sins instantly washed away was what made christianity very appealing to the new converts of the early christian movement in Palestine.

Its is perhaps the most clever psychological play on the basic human need for acceptance, self -esteem and worthiness, irrespective of previous sins , transgressions and crimes - And, it's been working ever since.
If there was one thing that made the nascent christianity to overshadow all the competing cults of 1st century Palestine, it had to be the concept of forgiveness of sins.

Unlike other cults, sects or schools of philosophy that had strict moral and ethical requirements for membership, the christian cult did the exact opposite by opening it's membership to all, with emphasis on sinners and other rejects of society.
And although they were largely mocked and scorned by the authorities for this, it proved to be the engine of exponential growth for the christian movement.

In an ironic twist, even Paul, a self-confessed mass murderer of christians, at a later point in his life, had to avail himself of the of boon of eternal forgiveness that the christians, his victims, offered.

Even Emperor Constantine, warlord, mass murder and genocidal maniac who murdered his entire family line for power, had to, at a later point in his life, avail himself also of the boon of divine redemption through christianity, something that his original religion of Mithrianism did not offer. By getting Emperor Constantine on board, the small nascent cult went on to be become the worlds dominant religion in a very short time.

My personal opinion is that the forgiveness concept of christianity is mostly what led christianity away from its humble roots into a political and economic monstrosity that it became over the millenia.
Think about it. Everyone , especially political and religious figures, can go out and exploit, enslave, rap.e , burn and plunder, and then in the still of night,whip out the bible and invoke the forgiveness clause and Viola! everything is wiped clean for yet another day.
This is exactly what human nature demands.

However, there are too many contradictions in this forgiveness concept when one juxtaposes it with other christian beliefs such as armagedon, rapture, judgement day and eternal damnation in hell fire.

When you look at all these beliefs, its impossible to figure out which comes first, which comes in between, and which comes last. Infact, that would depend on which christian sect you belong to.

For example, jesus died for all my sins- meaning that I am free of sins, right?. But which sins, the ones I committed yesterday, today or the ones I will definitely commit tomorrow?. How dos that make any sense?

If jesus already died for my sins, then why do I even need to ask god in prayer for forgiveness?

If jesus wiped away my sins and god accepts my prayers of forgiveness everyday, then what is the purpose of final judgement?

Who is going to hell since everyone is already sinless through the blood of jesus?

But now lets get to the meat of the matter.
The concept of forgiveness of sins is very very silly. But ofcourse, it is human nature to ignore what is obvious to embrace what is illogical as long as it is capable of catering to our human shortcomings.

Though illogical and contradictory to biblical facts, we take refuge in the notion of forgiveness of sins because it hides us(we assume) from the natural justice of karma.
Karma is an ugly b.i.tch that nobody wants to face.

Now back to the bible.
Forgiveness of sins is a grand delusion. The bible, yes the bible, makes no mention of god, a.k.a Yahweh, ever ever granting forgiveness without first exacting his own system of measured justice.

I challange any and all christians to show anywhere in the bible where Yahweh forgave anyone or group without punishment.

The bible says that the wages of sin is death. Where does forgiveness fit in?

Jesus says " do not be deceived,for god cannot be mocked: As a man soweth, so shall he reapeth" .
Between sowing and reaping, where does forgiveness fit in?

In the lord's prayer jesus asked for forgiveness of trespasses. He did not assure or guarantee it.

We see in the bible that each time there was a transgression of Yahweh's commandments, appropriate punishment and restitution had to be made to balance the books.
That is the law of nature. The books always have to be balanced.

A thief has absolutely no right to the boon of forgiveness unless he returns all that he has stolen and submits himself for punishment according to the laws of the land.
Same goes for every sin and every crime.

Kneeling down in supplication and asking for blanket forgiveness without punishment and restitution is a waste of time, a delusion,
and you will find out on judgement day when you are burning in hell, or as Frosbel would prefer, a lake of fire.
Ha ha ha.

N:B
I would particularly like to hear from the Anony, Ihedinobi and other spin meisters.

Bravo. Excellente. Superbly said. Nothing but the truth, the unadulterated truth.

But in this very, rests a recognition of a cognizant God.

dougivilla: Luke7: 46“ You did not anoint My head with oil, but she anointed My feet with perfume.

47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”48Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.”49Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”

50And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Now what punishment did she undergo for her many sins prior to receiving forgiveness?

See also Matthew chapter 9:5, Mark2:1-12, Luke 5:23 for many others that received forgiveness without the recommended ''commensurate punnishment'' in your own words.

Isaiah 1:18-20 King James Version (KJV)

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.!!

Another good effort.
Aside from assumptions , No one has shown where God actually forgave anyone without punishment or recompense.

In your references, Jesus, just like priests all over, arrogated to himself the perogative of forgiveness, something that would contradict his earlier spoken words of " Do not be deceived, god cannot be mocked: for surely as man soweth, so shall he reapeth".
There is no evidence that god forgave.
Show me any biblical evidence that God forgave anyone.

deSika: @ plaeton
dougivilla(m) has done the job for you, now tender your apologies, acknowledge your ignorance like a gentle man

DougVilla has finished work here. If plaetton had any self-respect, he would just quietly put that in his pipe and smoke it. But alas he didn't.

plaetton:
Another good effort.
Aside from assumptions , No one has shown where God actually forgave anyone without punishment or recompense.

Are you blind? Did you actually bother to read the passages he laid out? What did you expect forgiveness to look like?

In your references, Jesus, just like priests all over, arrogated to himself the perogative of forgiveness, something that would contradict his earlier spoken words of " Do not be deceived, god cannot be mocked: for surely as man soweth, so shall he reapeth".
There is no evidence that god forgave.
Show me any biblical evidence that God forgave anyone.

I'm afraid your ignorance of the bible is much - even after you have been corrected. I would suggest you actually sort that out first before attempting to criticize it.

Mr anony:
Are you blind? Did you actually bother to read the passages he laid out? What did you expect forgiveness to look like?


I'm afraid your ignorance of the bible is much - even after you have been corrected. I would suggest you actually sort that out first before attempting to criticize it.

Ha ha ha.
See Anony gloating because he thinks Dougvilla has done his hack job for him.
Sorry sir, you gloating is quite premature.

I read everything that Dougvilla and the other poster wrote, and I understand exactly where they are coming from.
They are still off the mark.

While Jesus was exercising the perogative of forgiveness in those few instances, he was definitely not acting in those capacities as god.
Now, If the posters are trinitarians, and therefore believe that jesus was acting as The God at all times, then let them make that point. That, ofcourse would be yet another debate between trinitarians and anti-trinitarians.

Until the trinitarian and anti-trinitarian conflict is resolved,
thus far, none have shown or proven that Yahweh/God had ever forgiven anyone without punishment and recompense.

Show me the proof, not mere assumptions and wishful thinking.

plaetton:

Ha ha ha.
See Anony gloating because he thinks Dougvilla has done his hack job for him.
Sorry sir, you gloating is quite premature.

I read everything that Dougvilla and the other poster wrote, and I understand exactly where they are coming from.
They are still off the mark.

While Jesus was exercising the perogative of forgiveness in those few instances, he was definitely not acting in those capacities as god.
Now, If the posters are trinitarians, and therefore believe that jesus was acting as The God at all times, then let them make that point. That, ofcourse would be yet another debate between trinitarians and anti-trinitarians.

Until the trinitarian and anti-trinitarian conflict is resolved,
thus far, none have shown or proven that Yahweh/God had ever forgiven anyone without punishment and recompense.

Show me the proof, not mere assumptions and wishful thinking.

Lol, ok then here you go...

For a majority of the people, many of them from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than as prescribed. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God, the LORD, the God of his fathers, even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness." And the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people. 2Chronicles 30:18-20

Does this satisfy you now?

Even more:

Jonah chapter 3

Jon 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you."
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water,
Jon 3:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.


Now as deSika has suggested, be a gentleman, acknowledge your ignorance and tender respectfully your apologies.

kufre2010: And Jesus told peter put back ur sword for whosoever kill by the sword shall die by the sword. The same Jesus said u wil reap what u sow. If sin where to b forgiven Jesus woud'nt hv told peter that. The concept of sin and forgiven was invented by the councel that made christianity an official religion in Rome and that was why the pope was selling forgiveness for sins u wil commit in future. This doctrine of sin and forgive is what is destroying the world because a killer is killing with the hope that he is guaranteed of forgiveness. Actually i hv nt seen a personality in the bible that sin and was not punished for it not even David.

Who punished David God or man? where did he punished ,in heave or on earth? Reply.

Mr anony:
Lol, ok then here you go...

For a majority of the people, many of them from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than as prescribed. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God, the LORD, the God of his fathers, even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness." And the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people. 2Chronicles 30:18-20

Does this satisfy you now?

Even more:

Jonah chapter 3

Jon 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you."
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water,
Jon 3:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.


Now as deSika has suggested, be a gentleman, acknowledge your ignorance and tender respectfully your apologies.

But surely, their acts of wearing sackcloth and ashes, denying themselves food and water, and all that - surely those acts served as penance and atonement which the Lord saw before averting the disaster.

Deep Sight:

But surely, their acts of wearing sackcloth and ashes, denying themselves food and water, and all that - surely those acts served as penance and atonement which the Lord saw before averting the disaster.

chief, this is what the thread is about.

plaetton:
I challange any and all christians to show anywhere in the bible where Yahweh forgave anyone or group without punishment.

dinner has been served.

oya am waiting for the apologies.

Deep Sight:

But surely, their acts of wearing sackcloth and ashes, denying themselves food and water, and all that - surely those acts served as penance and atonement which the Lord saw before averting the disaster.

But God didn't demand of them to fast. Their fasting showed the extent of their remorse.

Remember plaetton's challenge was:

I challenge any and all christians to show anywhere in the bible where Yahweh forgave anyone or group without punishment.

Unless you think that the extent of person's remorseful pleading actually counts as punishment for a crime in which case you would have turned the whole idea of forgiveness upon it's head. Surely you of all people should know better than that.

^^^

@ Anony and Desika -

My understanding of punishment here, is Karma.

As such, the punishment may well already be resident in the suffering they had to go through in starving themselves of food and water and wearing sack-cloth and ashes.

Unless of course, despite God's transcendence, you expect him to descend to specifically declare a punishment before the punishment is meted out, and also expect that the punishment must be meted out after the pronouncement of forgiveness, and not before? Is this your expectation?

Ayomivic:

Who punished David God or man? where did he punished ,in heave or on earth? Reply.

hv u ever seen god? God cannot come down and punish sombody there is a law that govern the world and that law is the law of karma. That is u reap what u sow. David took over somebody wife and push the husband to die in a war front. That is he scater someone else family. Upon the remorse that he showed his family was scattered his children fought and killed each other, his first son slept with his other wives and revolt against him. The child that he got by infidelity died. All these happened after he has pleaded 4 forgiveness 4 his sin.

Mr anony:
Lol, ok then here you go...

For a majority of the people, many of them from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet they ate the Passover otherwise than as prescribed. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, "May the good LORD pardon everyone who sets his heart to seek God, the LORD, the God of his fathers, even though not according to the sanctuary's rules of cleanness." And the LORD heard Hezekiah and healed the people. 2Chronicles 30:18-20

Does this satisfy you now?

Even more:

Jonah chapter 3

Jon 3:1 Then the word of the LORD came to Jonah the second time, saying,
Jon 3:2 "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it the message that I tell you."
Jon 3:3 So Jonah arose and went to Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceedingly great city, three days' journey in breadth.
Jon 3:4 Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he called out, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!"
Jon 3:5 And the people of Nineveh believed God. They called for a fast and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 The word reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, removed his robe, covered himself with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he issued a proclamation and published through Nineveh, "By the decree of the king and his nobles: Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything. Let them not feed or drink water,
Jon 3:8 but let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and let them call out mightily to God. Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.
Jon 3:9 Who knows? God may turn and relent and turn from his fierce anger, so that we may not perish."
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.


Now as deSika has suggested, be a gentleman, acknowledge your ignorance and tender respectfully your apologies.

Now where is @plaetton at? You still want some more examples? Or are you going to be the good boy your mama trained you to be and retract your challenge and/or apologise?

Deep Sight: ^^^

@ Anony and Desika -

My understanding of punishment here, is Karma.

As such, the punishment may well already be resident in the suffering they had to go through in starving themselves of food and water and wearing sack-cloth and ashes.

Unless of course, despite God's transcendence, you expect him to descend to specifically declare a punishment before the punishment is meted out, and also expect that the punishment must be meted out after the pronouncement of forgiveness, and not before? Is this your expectation?

Maybe you need to reread the originating post from op! He implied that God, regardless of your request for forgiveness must punnish you ''commensurately'' before forgiving you!

From the forefoing would you still hold that that postulation is really true?

dougivilla: Now where is @plaetton at? You still want some more examples? Or are you going to be the good boy your mama trained you to be and retract your challenge and/or apologise?

I don't run away from my challenges, and I'm humble enough to concede when it's due.
That time has not come yet.
My rebuttal lies on the very heart of his biblical quotations.
I will get to it later when I'm less busy.