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|Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 2:53pm On May 22, 2008|
I know it is the generally accepted christian belief that fornication is sin, but i have since discovered that the bible is not very clear on that. I know my christian brethen would start quoting several sriptures that say we should not fornicate, but even that is not convincing this is because just a few versions of the bible like king james version use the word "fornicate" other versions use the word "intimate immorality" on doing some theological research, i discovered that the appropriate translation that should have been used were the word fornication was used is intimate immorality. what then is intimate immorality?? Immoral intimate practices are listed in the book of Leviticus chapter 18 and the various immoral intimate practices were listed there, fornication which is the most common intimate practice was conspiciously absent from this list of intimate sins. My argument is that if really fornication is a sin then it would have been listed amongst the intimate sins in the book of levitcus. I therefore submit that the use of the word fornication by some versions of the bible was an error of translation Included below is levitcus 18 which deals exhuastively on intimate sins. Why is fornication missing answers anyone??
Unlawful intimate Relations
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have intimate relations. I am the LORD.
7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having intimate relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 " 'Do not have intimate relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have intimate relations; she is your aunt.
15 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 " 'Do not have intimate relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have intimate relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have intimate relations with her while your wife is living.
19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have intimate relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 " 'Do not have intimate relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 " 'Do not have intimate relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have intimate relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by KunleOshob(m): 1:41pm On May 23, 2008|
Are you trying to justify your lust for the flesh?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by reindeer: 11:40pm On May 23, 2008|
is stealing really a sin?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by NubianQ(f): 12:26am On May 24, 2008|
Guilty as charged
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by TYPOP(m): 7:46am On May 24, 2008|
Do you want to fornicate or this is A REAL desire to learn? Is this like what was said in the scriptures "much learning doth make you mad?"
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by holamiday(m): 4:25pm On May 25, 2008|
i am not intrested in typing too much, but the conclusion of the things i want to say is that HAVING SEX WITH A PERSON YOU ARE NOT MARRIED TO IS A SIN. even kissing, smooching or the likes is as good as being guilty as what God hates.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by TV01(m): 4:50pm On May 25, 2008|
It depends what you refer to, or who you ask!
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 10:59am On May 26, 2008|
I asked a simple question, no one as been able to provide me with any serious answers really i need someone to disect my analogy of the subject and tell me were iam wrong, that is if i am wrong
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 11:50am On May 26, 2008|
I'd like to have a go and do some 'dissecting' as you proposed. However, perhaps you could first help us clarify what you mean by 'fornication'. What meaning do you attach to that word, and what are its implications when applied to your analogy?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 12:08pm On May 26, 2008|
To my understanding fornication is when you have sex with somone you are not married toand my analogy is that fornication occured as a mis representation of intimate immorality in some versions of the bible. the correct translation is intimate immorality and fornication is not listed amongst the immoral intimate practices.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by eezzy(f): 1:17pm On May 26, 2008|
To answer you Mr. Jagoon;
According to Pastor G. Reckart's research on the word fornication: http://jesusmessiah.com/html/fornication.html, the word fornication in
itself does not refer only to intimate act between 2 single consenting adults, but refers to any manner of intimate conduct also including adultery. In
short, fornication is a form of intimate immorality, which the bible condemns in galatians 5:19 downwards and Revelations 21:8. Transaltion of the King James Version of the Bible is what attemted to classigy fornication only as sex between 2 singles, but research into the greek language
Jagoon, anything that is not clear in the bible check with your spiritual conscience. You'd rather get to heaven with one leg than land in hell with both feet.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 2:05pm On May 26, 2008|
Thank you for your reply - it affords me a working frame within which to dissect your query. The reason why I initially asked for a definition was because the term "fornication" means so many things to so many people. . . and that is why TV01's succinct answer proved helpful ("It depends what you refer to, or who you ask!".
This was your definition of "fornication" --
Now, if fornication could be defined as "sex with someone you are not married to", then I submit that this very concept are self-evident in many verses in the Leviticus which you quoted. Let's see some of them:
Okay, the point is clear - no sex with someone to whom you are not married, and pretty much is seen in several verses above as highlighted. The simple question to ask is: "are you((*) married to the person?" [I use you(*) in a generic sense, not particularly meaning yourself, Jagoon].. Can we remind ourselves of a few given in that list? Here:
*v.6 - "any close relative" - [this is elaborated upon in the subsequent verses, but others besides close relatives are mentioned]:
*v.7 - "your mother"
*v.8 - "your father's wife"
*v.14 - "your uncle's wife"
*v.15 - "your daughter-in-law (your son's wife)"
*v.16 - "your brother's wife"
*v.18 - "your wife's sister"
*v.20 - "your neighbor's wife"
The basic question besides all arguments is simple: "are you(*) married to these people?" Remember the definition above on fornication - "sex with someone you are not married to", that should solve out problem.
To have questioned whether the word "fornication" appears in the Bible as a mistranslation in some versions does not remove the fact that having sex with someone to whom one is not married is precisely demonstrated in Leviticus 18.
After all this, what's my answer to the topic question: "Is Fornication Really A Sin?" My answer is YES.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 2:08pm On May 26, 2008|
That doesn't explain why fornication (The most common intimate pracise) is not listed as a sin in Leviticus 18 which lists and explains all the immoral intimate practise.
As per spriritual conscience, i think our consciences is pricked by what we have been conditioned to believe is right or wrong. For instance the islamic religion allows you to have four wives and their spiritual conscience won't prick them, like wise tradition which allows us to have as many wives as we choose. So conscience in this regard is social conditioning which influences our perception of right and wrong. and the question this thread seeks to uncover is wether this issue of fornication is not just social conditioning which came about as a result of a wrong translation of some versions of the bible.
You also quoted pastor G Reckhart's definition of intimate immorality, i quoted the biblical definition of it in levitcus 18. Which one am i suppose to believe?? your pastor or the bible?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 2:13pm On May 26, 2008|
Let's suppose that "fornication" is not "listed" as a word in that chapter (Leviticus 8). What word would you give to the the idea of having sex with any one of the following people to whom you are not married (using your definition of the word in question):
Another definition of fornication is given by WordWeb dictionary as - "Extramarital sex that wilfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations". Would you throw out that definition as not applicable here as well? If so, why?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 2:22pm On May 26, 2008|
Thanx, but your response has been most unhelpful, i can at best describe it as wuruwuru to a preconceived answer, leviticus 18 was very clear it never said you should not have sex with any body you are not married to, it listed the immoral intimate practises and sex with one's boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance e.t.cwas clearly not listed. So stop trying to confuse issues here. If what was meant was anybody you are not married to, it would have been much easier to include in the scriptures instead of taking time to elaborate and explain the various intimate sins as comprehensively stated in leviticus 18. So stop jumpimg into certain conclusions based on presumption
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 2:34pm On May 26, 2008|
Please clam down and let's reason amicably.
Remember I asked for your definition of "fornication"? I am thankful that you offered one as "sex with somone you are not married to". Now, applying that definition to the several indicators in that chapter - Leviticus 18 - my query was quite simple: are you* married to anyone of those examples I outlined?
Since you cannot argue that you are married to your mother (v.7 - no insult to you please), nor to your father's wife (v. 8 - that is another man's wife), nor yet to your neighbour's wife (v. 20), or yet again to your uncle's wife (v. 14) or brother's wife (v. 16). . . what would warrant your zippers to fly in their direction?
Wait. . . if a 'reasoned pally' took his mother as his girlfriend (following your protest), would it be cool for him to have sex with her? What do you call that - and how does that differ from the definition that "fornication" is clearly the act of having "sex with someone to whom he was not married"? It is beyond argument that this pally cannot marry his own mother - so where is the "girlfriend" thingy being sneaked in here?
Besides, the chapter does not even mention "girlfriend" - so where did you get that idea from?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by eezzy(f): 3:02pm On May 26, 2008|
I quoted the Pastor cos he did a research on the meaning of fornication based
on the bible. Why not read the site I posted.
When I said spiritual conscience, I assumed you were Christian, sorry if am mistaken.
You need to shift your focus on fornication as a word referring to single sex relationships
and begin to see it in the greek context as a word referring to all manner of intimate relations including
Inbreeding and by the way, even idolatry has reference as fornication in the greek where the word comes
from. Stop getting uptight about the issue, we are only trying to help you see the light!
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 4:43pm On May 26, 2008|
I am not trying to sneak in anything! I am only stating the obvious. Sleeping with one's girl friend or fiance is not listed as a intimate sin, why should i assume it is just because some that is what we have been made to believe. I am not saying itis not a sin but i need real evidence that it is not just presumptions,.
I don't know what your definitin of christian is, but one thing i know is that i have given my life to christ and i believe strongly in him, however i try to seperate doctrine from the real word of God, i ask questions and i want answers as i said conscience spiritual or not, is what the mind as been conditioned to believe is right not necessarily what is right. s don't use that line on me that i may not be a christian just becos i am not sure a particular teaching is right.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 5:10pm On May 26, 2008|
Language is a wonderful thing! It can be quite problematic sometimes when we try to connect the dots. Anyhow. . .
However, the implication derived from what is stated definitely shows it up as a sin. Why? Because one may give so many reasons for the "girl-friend" idea, but the basic question is: "Am you married to that person?" Since fornication has been given as "sex with someone to whom you are not married", isn't it obvious that this activity with the girlfriend identifies itself as such?
It would be quite unhealthy to "assume" anything - whether in favour or against the topic. Rather than make presumptions, the more beneficial thing to do is examine the basis of our convictions - this is what we are trying to do by understanding and discussing Leviticus 18 based on the definition you offered.
Good. The "real" evidence is to explain for us how you hope to convince your reader that having sex with a "girlfriend" does not violate your own definition - "sex with someone with whom he is not married".
No matter how we juggle the word "girlfriend", she could never translate into "married". One's wife, mother an girlfriend are not the same set of relationship. The only that qualifies is the first ("wife", while the others ("mother" and "girlfriend" will violate your own definition. Agreed?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by eezzy(f): 6:30am On May 27, 2008|
eezzy:Jagoon link=topic=136088.msg2300290#msg2300290 date=1211816605:When I said spiritual conscience, I assumed you were Christian, sorry if am mistaken.
Jagoon, am glad to hear that you actually have given your life to Christ. However, you seem to
misunderstand everything I say, including the spiritual conscience, which to me works for everyone
who is born again, that is, if everything else is not clear, there is always an inner witness to direct
you as to whether the thing at hand is right or wrong.
Anyway, wish you the best as you try to find answers. God Bless.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 10:41am On May 27, 2008|
Please read the heading of this post again, it says:Is fornication really a sin?? from your posts you seem not to understand the question i am posting, the question is not what defines fornication as we are agreed on that. The question is intimate sins (which are also part of fornication have been clearly described in the bible) and the most obvious/common intimate practise outside marriage which is sleeping with one's girlfriend/ boyfriend ( pre-marital sex)is clearly absent. The way i see it, suggests it may not be a sin otherwise it would have been listed. To rephrase my post here, i need clear biblical evidence that pre-marital sex is a sin. I look forward to hearing from you
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 3:57pm On May 27, 2008|
I started out by carefully asking you to define fornication - it is your own definition I applied, and after carefully "dissecting" your analysis of Leviticus 18 (as requested), I answered that it was a sin indeed.
So far, the protests you are making are saying nothing more than excuse away from your own definition. Pardon me, but you have never been able to come to terms with the question of showing how sex with someone a man is not married to is NOT fornication - that is like asking us to forget that marriage was mentioned in that chapter, and then arrive at something else.
I read the topic carefully; I answered carefully. Does fornication (as defined by you) excuse having sex with someone you're not married to?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 4:22pm On May 27, 2008|
thanx for your response, but i must comment they have been most unhelpful, i expected you to give me sound biblical references and not your opinion on what i understand to mean something else, however i have been able to find a scripture which says pre-marital sex is a sin. that was the kind of precise answer i was looking for not opinions. Deuteronomy 22 : 13-30 explains it better, thanx for your effort anyway.
Passage Deuteronomy 22:13-30:
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [a] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and Molests her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and Molests her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [b] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
30 A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 4:35pm On May 27, 2008|
If the opinions were mine, why did I ask for your own definition of what fornication was?
Interestingly, you have just mentioned "pre-marital sex" above - does that not bring you round the fact that you are still struggling to find an excuse around this question: "Are you married to that person"?
Whether my inputs have been helpful or not is contigent upon whether you have found your own definition unfruitful. It often happens - man always finds that when he tries to force his assumptions upon Scripture, he will sooner than later begin to experience huge problems with his own definitions. I've been there before - so I know. That is why I prefer following the Word contextually than assume things.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 4:49pm On May 27, 2008|
I think you are really a very argumentative person, i was not arguing as i said i was seeking knowledge, the answers which i have now found in deuteronomy 22, which i posted above,(unlike your explanations which didn't establish anything but your opinion) you obviously did not understand my post hence your line of argument. I was making excuses i was only searching for people who knew the scriptures well to assist me, i needed people who would quote scriptures so i am certain they are right and not someone who would tell me her opinion of what she thinks the scripture means. As i said earlier fornication meaning sex outside marriage is not described as a sin in Leviticus 18, i stand to be corrected on that. The problem with us christians is that we don't seek knowledge, we are just stereotype in our thinking so when pranksters like huxley take you up on your belief you can't defend what you beleive in effectively. I think as christians we ought to take time to really understand what we beleive and why we believe it, we should not just beleive for for beleiving sake
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 5:02pm On May 27, 2008|
I'm not a very argumentative person; nor am I gullible. My one question (based on your own definition) was this:
* Are you married to the person you want to have sex with?
If not, is that different from your own definition: "sex with someone to whom you are NOT married"?
Until that question is answered honestly, where's the argument?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 5:17pm On May 27, 2008|
Even though i am certain that sex with somebody i am not married to is fornication, what i was not certain about is wether that type of fornication is a sin since it was NOT listed in the list of intimate sins in Leviticus. What is so difficult in understanding this simple statement The problem i have with you is that you are trying to impose an opinion on me without being able to back it up scripturally.
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 6:00pm On May 27, 2008|
Lol. . . @Jagoon,
I'll refrain for now so that others can contribute, especially because I don't want to make you feel pressured about anything. For now, I can simply say that I know the Scriptures clearly identify fornication (as defined by you) to be a sin - see also the following:
* Matthew 5:32
* Matthew 19:9
* Acts 15:20
* Romans 1:29
* 1 Corinthians 5:1
* 1 Corinthians 6:18
There are more, but it would be interesting to see you explication of those verses where "fornication" is used (I simply consulted the KJV).
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by gears26(m): 8:15pm On May 27, 2008|
Yes, It all depends on the way you see fornication
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 8:51am On May 28, 2008|
i have read all the scriptures you posted, half of them were talking about adultery which is not in question here, the other half were talking about intimate immorality which is the basis of this thread. as i said earlier sleeping with one's girlfriend or pre-marital sex was not included in the list of intimate sins. You keep refering to my definition of fornication, how does that in anyway provide the answer you are tying to impose on me the truth is dat you have no facts to offer on this question, you are just being stereotype. as i said earlier i have found the answer to my question in deuteronomy 22, all the scriptures you quoted in their proper context did not answer my question. Thanx but not thanx
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by syrup(f): 9:06am On May 28, 2008|
Very much appreciated. According to your own definition of fornication, I wonder if the same Deuteronomy 22 commands anyone to have "sex with someone they are not married to"?
|Re: Is Fornication Really A Sin? by Jagoon: 9:16am On May 28, 2008|
I am now convinced beyond reasonable doubt that you lack understanding, if you read my post carefully i never made an express statement that it was ok to have sex with someone i am not married to, (that is your own assumption) i was asking questions, expecting sound answers not the kind of allusions you posted wich did not answer anything. And if you must know deuteronomy 22 forbids premarital sex, at least for women
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