I was just responding to Zahymaka's latest post on the new forms of contraception that will take away menstruation altogether, I was about to start ranting on and on about capitalism.

It is fascinating how since our very young age the virtues of capitalism has been instilled in us and we've been brainwashed to accept it has the best ideology. i just think about my Jr high and high school days, my history, economics, philosophy teachers used to present other doctrines, specifically Marxism, socialism, collectivism,anarchism as the "bad" ideologies.

The lessons were taught in a way that even if they didn't literally say those were the bad doctrines, you just come to a conclusion on your own. for example when we talked about Marxism it was really briefly and even though i can't remember my lessons vividly, i know that Karl Marx was extreme in his ideas, i know that it contributed to Hitler's twisted crave for power. when we talked about collectivism, we talked about Staline (the devil himself) and his personality cult etc till today when i think collectivism or socialism for that matter i think Gulag i think Bolshevik and all those people that suffer. so clearly those ideologies are horrible,

and the only other ideology that teachers spend the whole year on (actually year in year out on) is capitalism, the race for profit and more profit!!! No one never pointed out to me the virtues of Marxism or the rest, clearly if not taken to the extreme one can actually see sense in those doctrines, Look at China and their mixed economy of capitalism and socialism, it is working for them big time, in terms of profit and GDP (that's why everyone is courting and flirting with the president). I'm very bad with staying on the same train of thoughts so before i turn this into a never ending rant let me get to the point (s)

I love capitalism because its the only doctrine or ideology that i know.

I have been forced to accept it.

I have been told profit is good endlessly.

In fact i am a true capitalist ( arguably not by choice) with a conscience

for me it is the ideology that i love to hate and hate to love.

why? because thanks to it i strive to go over and beyond in my endeavors so that tomorrow i can enjoy the profits!!! i love to hate it because it's the reason for the disparities in Nigeria and many more countries. i once heard a kid (not older than 13) from a very wealthy home say i don't want Nigeria to change because it wont be the same anymore, that is capitalism at its worse!!!!!!

But i want u to share your views on capitalism. when did u first meet? are you in love with it? do you want to break up or do you think you'll ever break up? Even if we break up can we avoid it? Thanks to globalization, capitalism's yansh is bein exposed!!!! like Marx said capitalism will eventually kill itself!!!! so the million dollar question do you think capitalism is here to stay?

What is your grouse with capitalism? Capitalism is the only system that treats human beings as adults!

@leilata

I think you should try living in North Korea

We will see how many forums u can post on from there and how many books u can get to read

Back in the 60s - 70s, we experienced the "glorious years" when nation-state's thought that the answer to their problems was socialism, basically a mix b/w communism and capitalism. Some countries, even the UK, still practice this today. Then down went the Berlin wall. It turns out old mother russia, in keeping up with the US, was spending as much as 50% of its GDP on the military. Also varioius schemes like price-fixing didn't help either. Do you remember the lines of pple waiting for bread? Now, especially with globalisation, capitalism is here and isn't going anywhere, especially with the rise of the internet giving pple access to things they wouldn't have otherwise known.

I am a firm believer in the saying that nothing lasts forever. So one day, capitalism will fade away. Should it? Not in my opinion. As xkape said, try having nairaland in North Korea or even China.

What will bring down capitalism? Pple being fed up with only a few pple enjoying the fruits of capitalism. The movement will most likely come from the ever-vanishing middle class.

What will replace capitalism? I honestly can't say. All I can say though is buckle up and enjoy the ride. It will b fun while it lasts.

and thatz my 2 cents

I don't really have a problem with capitalism.

Look, many of today's billionaires are paper billionaires. The so-called increasing wage gap is merely a function of over-valuation of some financial asets. For example, Bill Gates is worth billions of dollars - in Microsoft stock. He can' just withdraw is $40 billion one day. he has to be withdrawing it a little at a time. 1 million here, 1 million there. Many of those who suddenly became wealthy got it through funny markets directly or indirectly.

And whose fault is it that newbies flood into the stock and real estate market buying over-valued stocks of their favorite companies and making a few people rich? The government of course. It's the government's fault that money is not stable. If money was stable, saving for retirement will be as simple as keeping your money in your bank account. But no, you take it into the stock market and you lose, for a few people to gain. Not capitalism's fault.

Another thing is that rich capitalists don't eat their money. They spread it around. When they buy luxury items like diamonds, first class seats, and homes in trendy locations, they are spreading the money to the 'poor' people that provide those services. The second thing they do is that they invest the money and create opportunities for others to get some of it. When they put money in banks it goes into creating loans for broke-asses with good ideas.

Will capitalism be replaced? Why do you want to fix what's not broken? Why not fix government corruption? If government wasn't corrupt, big businesses will not be much more powerful than the multitude of small businesses.

Capitalists are not evil. They generate wealth by providing valuable services to others. The only other way is to steal. Is it just to steal from a rich man who struggled to get where he is so others can prosper without working?

Why do our people all want to go to the US? "Opportunities". That's what capitalism creates. No guarantees, just opportunities. Lots of wealth available - but you must provide something valuable to the society first.

Seun:

I don't really have a problem with capitalism.

Another thing is that[b] rich capitalists don't eat their money. [/b][b]They spread it around. When they buy luxury items like diamonds, [/b]first class seats, and homes in trendy locations, they are spreading the money to the 'poor' people that provide those services. The second thing they do is that they invest the money and create opportunities for others to get some of it. When they put money in banks it goes into creating loans for broke-asses with good ideas.

If by buying luxury items like diamonds spreads money to the poor people who provide services, then how come the people who dig up diamonds in sierra leone live in abject poverty?

capitalism provides opportunities yes true but it exploits people too. Macdonald pays people $5.25 to flip burgers, anybody who lives in america knows that $5.25 is useless and degrading pay. while Mcdonald makes billions of dollars in profits annually. As you know or should know all paid jobs degrade the mind. To be really rich you have to own your own job.

capitalism is the love of money, and the love of money is the root off all evil. capitalism is not even the root , its the whole tree.

In America 80% of the population work for the remaining 20%, see that old lady crossing the street? she works for britney spears!

@ Xkape first i told u i am a capitalist!!! and that it is the ideology i love to hate and hate to love, First the north korean regime is not ideal because whatever ideology it is based on has been twisted to totalitarian regime, second point that i was trying to make is we embrace capitalism because it's the only one we're told is good and that is what is practiced the most, and history shows all the other ideologies are crap, but what if we tried to mix match the good of all of them
@ Seun like Zebudaya says capitalism provides opportunities but it exploits ppl!!!! and the other thing is the opportunities it creates are very limited in a way that the rich will always be rich and the poor struggling!!!! and other ideologies theoretically create opportunities too in an even way so that everyone profits from the big cake. Capitalism creates huge inequalities other ideologies don't!!! there is a class system that comes with capitalism that doesn't exist in other doctrines. with capitalism there is no social mobility: if u are from a poor home it is rather hard for you to move out of that social stratas. a kid from a poor home is very unlikely to go to a good school even if the US of A or the UK (If you live in Peckham u are surely goin to peckham academy) so your qualification will probably not stand out as much as someone who went to a posh school. your chances of getting a job will be lower and even if u did have excellent grades your social capital (the number of MD friends your parents have) is defo not as much as the rich kid so they'll probably get the job with average grades. my point is capitalism and liberalism creates disparities in a way that the state cannot intervene to help the poor. So you clearly do not see a problem when people want to flea to the states to have "opportunities" (i put quotation marks to that because with the qualification some of those people have they should be able to get decent jobs but nooo they usually get menial jobs)
I am not saying capitalism should be knocked off completely but maybe there are elements of other ideologies that might help narrow the inequalities. Capitalism is the reason why pharmaceutical companies sell drugs for HIV at non affordable prices! capitalism does not worry about wellbeing it worries about profits. In fact Adam Smiths advocates the importance of self-interest, because it will eventually lead to common good but what happens today is self-interest that he was talking about yesteryear is transformed into greed today!!! look no further than our governing bodies!!! maybe the other doctrines were twisted and were never given a chance but capitalism should evolve into smthg better than what it is. In france for example they practice a bit of socialism and trust me that's the reason why they have one of the best health care system in the world while the USA ranks 37th. In france there is tax on fortune so if you are stinkyly rich true inheritance or your own sweat you will be taxed and it is redistributed to the poor. this is an example of what i mean by capitalism should evolve!

In france there is tax on fortune so if you are stinkyly rich true inheritance or your own sweat you will be taxed and it is redistributed to the poor. this is an example of what i mean by capitalism should evolve!

Leilata, I respectfully disagree. If I earn my money through my own sweat, I should have the choice via a will of where my wealth shd go. So if I decide that it go to my family, or to some charity, it should be my decision, not the government's.

Back to the issue on ground:
Capitalism = opportunity = exploitation
Socialism = "equality" = From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

In the end, none of them are the best solution. However, under normal circumstances, capitalism is best. Should you not like being possibly exploited, then ideally, such pple should strive for a better life.

Coming to think of it, if the leaders in countries where this happens actually take care of their pple, would such exploitation happen? I doubt it.

capitalism provides opportunities yes true but it exploits people too. Macdonald pays people $5.25 to flip burgers, anybody who lives in america knows that $5.25 is useless and degrading pay. while Mcdonald makes billions of dollars in profits annually.

This is ridiculous. What is degrading about being paid $5.25 an hour to flip burgers? Is it better to be unemployed than to earn $5.25 an hour? I would never hire people to flip burgers at $5.25; I'll use robots!

People are paid according to the value of their work. If your work is very valuable, you get more money. There is no exploitation. Those who are willing to pay for unskilled labor are doing 'poor' people a lot of service. Those who would rather have them sit at home doing nothing but collecting welfare checks are doing them no favors.

As you know or should know all paid jobs degrade the mind. To be really rich you have to own your own job.

Yes, I created my own job, and I'm enjoying it. This is only posible under capitalism, you know. Stop whining and create yours too. Regulations that make it hard for people to start their own businesses harm everybody.

If by buying luxury items like diamonds spreads money to the poor people who provide services, then how come the people who dig up diamonds in sierra leone live in abject poverty?

That's because Sierra-Leone is not a capitalist economy. It's a 'military economy'. In a stable capitalist economy, the owners of the mines would pay people well to mine the diamonds for them, and then they'll spend whatever they earn in the local economy. Look at South Africa, the gold mining capital of the world! In Sierra Leone, armed groups are fighting for control of the diamond mines. The war situation destroys the economy, and throws everyone into poverty and unemployment. Because there are no better jobs available, people work in the military-controlled mines for little pay. The problem is not capitalism at all. Capitalism doesn't support stealing and fighting.

there is a class system that comes with capitalism that doesn't exist in other doctrines. with capitalism there is no social mobility

The class system is a product of culture and not capitalism. Under normal circumstances, a capitalist would hire the best employees to manage and run his business regardless of class or race in order to maximise profits. But in a culture where there's a lot of segregation, you have rich people hiring rich people to produce goods that will be consumed by rich people. Poor people are excluded even when they have something to offer. That is a problem of culture, not capitalism, and in the 21st century, people are growing out of this class mentality.

Capitalism is the reason why pharmaceutical companies sell drugs for HIV at non affordable prices!

That's not true. The reason is the patent system. Capitalism produces the best outcomes for everyone when there's competition. However, the patent system allows the first person to discover a new drug to get a patent on it (for thousands of dollars). Once they get the patent, then they have a monopoly on the manufacturing of that drug, so others can't compete with them and force them to reduce prices. If someone had a monopoly on the manufacture of food, it would also be expensive, but as you see it's not. The patent system should be reformed, but that's a problem of law, not capitalism. Let's fix the stupid patent laws, but capitalism is ok!

Some ye ye American woman I was dating back in the day had the nerve to get in an argument with me claiming that *everyone* should be paid the same - be it u r a doctor or a "burger flipper (my first job in US was this, and I got paid $4.25 an hour, and it anything, it motivated me to achieve my goals in life, so I don't know what is the big deal with it). I was like Burger flipper get paid the same amount of money with someone who probably took out over $200K in student loans, and probably performs hours of surgery to save someone's life If no b say im been fine, I for don dump an siiiiince!!!

In secondary school, I remember, in an attempt to show our disdain for apartheid, the FG made all FGCs have a writing on our blackboard that read "Apartheid is a crime against humanity". Now that apartheid is over, that word should be replaced by pple who think there is something wrong with paying a burger flipper $5.25 an hour while paying a doctor thousands an hour.

I am not a doctor but I respect what they do and say they are worth it!!

@leilata
Among the doctrines, Capitalism is dynamic. It can sooth any economic situation.Look at China today is Socialism and Capitalism, you do mention France they practice dual doctrine too. To me that is the biggest advantage of Capitalism. Its flexibility.

I agree with Seun. All we need do is change our govt policies and our leaders to be more sincere and transperent in the implimentation of these laws. We leave Capitalism to evolve it self.

And to your last question yes Capitalism is here to stay. People like you will always pin point some loop hools and try to incoorperate another doctrine with Capitalism. That is also the adv of capitalism. People like you will shape Capitalism for the next generation.

Please always compere the adv with the disadv before discouraging yourself.Capitalism encourages poeple to be innovative and hard working. It brings out the best in you.

Seun
You say "T[b]he class system is a product of culture and not capitalism.[/b], how can you differentiate the economic systems from the culture it produces?

Capitalism is about self interest first, then maybe others. Since capitalism put's self interest first people want to make all the money even it if means somebody else has to loose heavily.

capitalism has advantages. but i would rather see a mixed system whereby the advantages of capitalism/communism and socialism are all blended together

You also said that people are growing out of the class mentality, no sir thats not true. I hope you know that the city/neigbourhood you live in America determines where your kids go to school. so if you live in the inner city/hood. It's very likely that your kids would go to a bad public school unless you have enough money to send them to private school on the other hand the rich can afford to send their kids to very good public schools if they so wish and they would not pay a dime. Now tell me who has better chances of getting into a good university as a result of their receiving a quality high school education . The Rich, and you say they are growing out of the class divide.

Seun, the United States of America is NOT a pure capitalist nation!
It's a mixed economy that relies on both free market and socialist policies.

We used to be mostly a capitalist nation. It reached it's peak during the Carnegie, Rockefeller and Ford era (late 19th century)these moguls preached the "social gospel" and to tell the truth, although it raised american american national wealth, this wealth was only enjoyed by a tiny percentage of the entire country.
where about 1% of the population controlled over half the wealth of the nation and the rest of the population remained and went deeper in poverty, depression even got worse.

To justify Capitalism, these moguls effected the "trickle down" idea, as Seun said,

"Another thing is that rich capitalists don't eat their money. They spread it around. When they buy luxury items like diamonds, first class seats, and homes in trendy locations, they are spreading the money to the 'poor' people that provide those services. The second thing they do is that they invest the money and create opportunities for others to get some of it. When they put money in banks it goes into creating loans for broke-asses with good ideas"

The problem with this however is that although they claimed the money is eventually "trickling down" to the poor people, the rich became richer and the poor became poorer with farmers and agricultural workers at the bottom of the system.

with the Laissez faire ideology preventing government interference, smaller businesses are driven out of service, transportation prices drastically drove up (the companies controled the prices and did whatever they wanted),
although money was loaned to people, the interest rates were so high it was wiser not to borrow, even so, the banks were harsh and will take away citizens lands if they couldn't afford to pay like they did to farmers.
The industries overworked their labor workers and didn't provide them any benefits
(the hardworkers were the ones loosing!)


Under FDR (Roosevelt), the nation changed to permit government interferance.
The goal was to put an end to the depression capitalism had caused.
government and socialist policies were initiated. among them were the:

Social security act
agricultural adjustment act
Civil Works Administration
National Industrial Recovery Act
Wagner act
Fair Labor Standards Act
and a bunch of others.
Today, the government controls many areas in the United States economy although there is still free trade.


I don't think Capitalism is something that'll help Nigeria. An efficient government with a great welfare program will do just fine!!!

I discovered a problem with laissez-faire. I have no problem with people being poor while looking for how to contribute to society, but I don't believe that people should be allowed to die or suffer serious physical/psychological damage due to lack of money. So I guess there are limits to capitalism. All other things being equal, an altruistic person will be less prosperous than an amoral one in a perfectly free market society.

the people who work the hardest are usually the poor ones though if you think about it.
most capitalists inherit their wealth from their predecessors and continue the line by accumulating more wealth.

they make diamonds and pay the labor workers stones. without government interference, conditions like this tend not to change

I'm not against Capitalism but I'd just like for there to be a balance between it and socialism.

a perfectly or 100% free market only leads to monopolies. somethings have to give.
people who try to start new businesses when there already is an established one will only run out of business.
the solution to this will be government interference like the sherman anti-trust act of 1890 in the United States.

a perfectly or 100% free market only leads to monopolies.

Hmmmm. Well this is simply wrong. Every monopoly in real life enjoys some government protection. As long as you are earning money, other entrepreneurs will be looking for a share of your pie. Sometimes, your employees will defect and try to start their own companies. New companies will come up with new products and services that render yours obsolete. Market leaders, often mislabelled as monopolies, always have to be on their toes.

For example, Nairaland is a major online forum. Perhaps we get more traffic than other forums, but that doesn't stop others from getting a significant amount of traffic. Nairaland may seem so great, but if someone builds a new forum and gives people a good reason to migrate, our members will migrate. There will always be those who prefer smaller forums simply because they are small. The only way this site can become a monopoly is to bribe or swindle lawmakers into creating a law that makes it hard for others to start their own forums. For instance, a "minimum memberization" rule that requires all forums to have at least 10,000 members or merge with larger forums if they can't meet that number.

This is the real reason why big business seems so powerful; the politicians can be manipulated to pass stupid laws that favor large companies at the expense of smaller businesses. If the lawmakers are guided by free market principles they would not create such arbitrary laws. Now you understand why i'm an opponent of the recapitalization aspect of the Nigerian banking reforms - it favors the richest of the rich at the expense of all.

http://www.savingcapitalism.com/final.pdf <-- this will make you fall in love with capitalism again!

like someone said Capitalism is defo not what Naija needs!!!!

Nigeria needs a system that works and capitalism works! Thanks to capitalism, we have mobile phones.

Seun, are you saying monopolies are great?
can you tell me how free market doesn't promote monopolies?

Nairaland seems somehow like a monopoly but it's in reality not one.
there are other thriving Nigerian sites  (Naijariders or however you spell it) I just think this site appeals mostly to Nigerians and even non-nigerians because it's soo diverse!
Other smaller sites just starting up might have difficulty but with time things get better.

when we're talking about real life big businesses as Oil, steel e.t.c once a monopoly is set and the govt does nothing to control it, the companies take over the smaller ones and if they object, they are driven out of business. this affects the economy because once the nation relies on them, they take advantage. they do all these things for their personal gain (that's basically what business means). stuff like increasing good prices, paying workers less money e.t.c
But when the government controls the economy, it is doing it not for personal gain but for the good of the country and the country's people. Usually the mass.

The govt in Nigeria is so ineffective that rich controls everything and everything stays in their arms while the mass suffers. But the gov.t doesn't do anything much (at least it doesn't do anything good)
so, Nigeria needs the government to be more efficient that's all!
no capitalist nation. just an effective government.
with maybe a balance between capitalism and socialism (like the united states)

Seun, but maybe if the Nigerian government was productive and capable, mobile phones and the bills will be a whole lot cheaper and lower
Capitalism = only the rich can afford mobile phones.

Seun, are you saying monopolies are great?

WesleyanA, it's obvious you didn't read my previous posts at all. Please, do read them. Monopolies are terrible. Competition is great. Capitalism promotes competition, but monopolies are created by bad politics.

in the game monopoly, you are forced to advance to the position selected to you by a random pair of dice. This is the opposite of capitalism because under capitalism you get to choose which product or service you want to buy. If the product is too expensive, you just dump it. The "monopoly" game is more like a communist game!

true.
who knows, it might work in Nigeria. and it might not.

About the morality of capitalism:
- http:///rtot9
- http://austrianforum.com/index.php?showtopic=961

Capitalism encourages competition and eliminates mediocrity in the business trade. For how long it will be around mother earth, I dont know, but I dont see it disappearing anytime soon.