italo: Funny thing is, he has provided for us, no concrete evidence for all he has said.

He just BELIEVES the words of men.

It turns out that even Atheists live by FAITH.

Pls don't insult us with faith crap. Don't u know the meaning of Faith?
Talking snake, six days of creation, resurrection, perpetual virginity of mary, those are faith.
On the hand, we you have several pieces of evidence, even if anecdotal, that when assembled together, points to certain direction, is is only sensible look closely at where the evidence is pointing at. No faith required.

There is no room for faith i thinking person's brain.

@ op, Too much of Knowledge can kill you.

God had made knows what he wants us to know, it is left for you and i to believe or disbelieve.

One thing i am fully aware is that, i am alive now, i did not creat myself, i can't prevent myself from death when it is time, i can't tell what we happen after death, but believe there is God.

This is another interesting point of view to explain old scriptures like d sumerian records in relation to evolution.though there are still many questions unanswered,its still good to diversify our views of some religious books as sense can sometimes be found in nonsense.its being a long time since a deep debate took place on nairaland religion section.anyway am expecting logicboy,muskeeto and other atheist/agnostic meanwhile i will take my time to go thru some of d points raised by d op.kudos to plaetton for dis thread.

Ayomivic: @ op, Too much of Knowledge can kill you.

God had made knows what he wants us to know, it is left for you and i to believe or disbelieve.

One thing i am fully aware is that, i am alive now, i did not creat myself, i can't prevent myself from death when it is time, i can't tell what we happen after death, but believe there is God.

do u believe in hell myth,tithes,miracles etc

@ OP

For your thread, I searched the book of Genesis thoroughly to find where the Bible says "God Did Not Create Man".

I think you should rather say you do not believe the Bible when it says God created man.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:18
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:21
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Genesis 2:22
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

truthman2012: @ OP

For your thread, I searched the book of Genesis thoroughly to find where the Bible says "God Did Not Create Man".

I think you should rather say you do not believe the Bible when it says God created man.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 2:18
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:21
And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

Genesis 2:22
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Don't mind the confused boy, he would surely come to the knowledge of truth sooner or later.

Ayomivic: @ op, Too much of Knowledge can kill you.

God had made knows what he wants us to know, it is left for you and i to believe or disbelieve.

One thing i am fully aware is that, i am alive now, i did not creat myself, i can't prevent myself from death when it is time, i can't tell what we happen after death, but believe there is God.

In other words, ignorance is bliss?

I hear you o.

You havent given any evidence. You only have faith in what some scientists say.

plaetton:

Pls don't insult us with faith crap. Don't u know the meaning of Faith?
Talking snake, six days of creation, resurrection, perpetual virginity of mary, those are faith.
On the hand, we you have several pieces of evidence, even if anecdotal, that when assembled together, points to certain direction, is is only sensible look closely at where the evidence is pointing at. No faith required.

There is no room for faith i thinking person's brain.

Pastor Kun:

Don't mind the confused boy, he would surely come to the knowledge of truth sooner or later.

Yes indeed my good sire. I am confused, but still searching. I am a walking question mark, as should be ever thinking person.

But alas, not you, fir you have already figured it all out. Haven't you?

Well, a famous quote goes like this:
" It is better to start from a position of doubt to arrive at certainty, than to start from a position of certainty to arrive at doubts."

italo: You havent given any evidence. You only have faith in what some scientists say.

Italo,
Faith in science is an oxymoron.
Saying faith in science means that you do not understand what either of these two words mean.
C'mon, you can do better than that.

Do you believe in love, dreams, imagination etc...

ninja4life:
do u believe in hell myth,tithes,miracles etc

plaetton:

Yes indeed my good sire. I am confused, but still searching. I am a walking question mark, as should be ever thinking person.

But alas, not you, fir you have already figured it all out. Haven't you?

Well, a famous quote goes like this:
" It is better to start from a position of doubt to arrive at certainty, than to start from a position of certainty to arrive at doubts."

Trust me I understand your dilemma, how ever some of us have had profound spiritual experiences which confirms the existence of God and heaven. I know there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise but it's a good thing you are seeking for answers. I trust that God in his own time would manifest himself to you.

I never said "faith in science." You concocted that for yourself. If you want to argue with me, argue against my position, not against a position you made up for me.

I said you have "faith in what some scientists say."

Because you have shown us any evidence for the things you said.

You just believe the scientists that told you so...as I believe my clerics without empirical evidence of many spiritual truths.

plaetton:
Italo,
Faith in science is an oxymoron.
Saying faith in science means that you do not understand what either of these two words mean.
C'mon, you can do better than that.

plaetton:
Italo,
Faith in science is an oxymoron.
Saying faith in science means that you do not understand what either of these two words mean.
C'mon, you can do better than that.

Guy someone asked you a questioin about imam, prophets and even some genuine adeherants of African Traditional Religions seein visions, or giving prophecy and you dismissed it as totally false and fraud , Let us try to be Objective , you dismissed the possibility of such things because you never experienced or met one....i can tell you i've met people who will tell you about your past, present and future and never met you before you can Pm.if you'r in 9ja to experience this, the thing is that this things have been in existence before the western and eastern Religions (dominant) was introduced .....but i also do not understand how such things happens , anyone who have a book or books that explains such experience should Pm or quote me for links......You Shall Know The Truth and it shall set you free.....

You are still searching yet you are constantly insulting those who claim to be certain.

That doesnt depict open-mindedness.

plaetton:

Yes indeed my good sire. I am confused, but still searching. I am a walking question mark, as should be ever thinking person.

But alas, not you, fir you have already figured it all out. Haven't you?

Well, a famous quote goes like this:
" It is better to start from a position of doubt to arrive at certainty, than to start from a position of certainty to arrive at doubts."

italo: You are still searching yet you are constantly insulting those who claim to be certain.

That doesnt depict open-mindedness.

what you claim as truth or certainty does not make sense. We've all heard it and they dont make sense so we'll continue searching. All the progress you see today in this world are as a result of science: transport, communication etc so excuse us when we dont subscribe to your religious nonsense that has only served to spread fear, hatred, discrimination, and silly promises of an afterlife somewhere with a mentally unstable skydaddy.

italo: You havent given any evidence. You only have faith in what some scientists say.

Oh yes, I have.
To start, I have given many biblical references. Does that not count as evidence, or what do you think?

italo: You are still searching yet you are constantly insulting those who claim to be certain.

That doesnt depict open-mindedness.

I try as much not to insult individuals, except for those religious fraudsters who parasite on the ignorance and emotional vulnerability of the masses.
I attack opinions and viewpoints that go against the grain of common sense.

shol:



Guy someone asked you a questioin about imam, prophets and even some genuine adeherants of African Traditional Religions seein visions, or giving prophecy and you dismissed it as totally false and fraud , Let us try to be Objective , you dismissed the possibility of such things because you never experienced or met one....i can tell you i've met people who will tell you about your past, present and future and never met you before you can Pm.if you'r in 9ja to experience this, the thing is that this things have been in existence before the western and eastern Religions (dominant) was introduced .....but i also do not understand how such things happens , anyone who have a book or books that explains such experience should Pm or quote me for links......You Shall Know The Truth and it shall set you free.....

My friend, everyone has strange and inexplicable experiences. I have had many many epiphanies in my life that if I was a religious nut, I would have strated my own little religion by now.
.
So what?
It is not the experience , but the interpretation that matters, and each mind interprets the same experience differently.

If a village farmer, religious priest, a philosopher, and a NASA scientist have the same epiphany , all four would interpret that dream, vision or epiphany in four different ways according to their mental orientation.

That is why such things are not seen as reliable arbiters of general reality.
And pls tell me, how come religious themed visions, prophecies , etc, are more prevalent among the economically poor people of the earth?.
How come such stuff are not common in countries with very high standards of living?
Is there a corrolation between poverty, low standard of living and superstition?
You tell me.

The bottom line is that only the scientific method can generally decipher all myseries in a way that everyone can understand.

wiegraf: Op, I give you; Dragons

Keynote; showed up in different cultures, not necessarily related



Yet obvious similarities evolved.



The bolded are just to highlight how they inevitably became associated with various (sometimes complex) universal themes, usually associated with power (or fear) due to their nature.

My point for the most part is this



Same sort of thing could be at work here, with humanity just having a propensity to dream up bombastic gods that show up in heavenly chariots, raze whole towns, etc. It's simply boss, associated with power, etc. Not to mention, like you state, many of these myths are borrowed, more or else aggregations of memes that simply captured the primitive mind.

Obvious flaw with this thinking is dragons are indeed inspired by real life reptiles (usually ie, when not borrowed), eg large crocodiles. However, considering the anthropic principle, man's ability to abstract etc, man is likely to dream up gods (especially when ignorant). Even if not by himself society would conspire to form one or the other for various reasons, and after that happens the next 'logical' step would be to dress them up as awesome, fantastical beings. Enter the surreal, fabulous, omnixx.x and other similar nonsense.


As for evolutionary gaps, that probably needs more exploration. There are these to consider for instance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/news/article/3387/environmental_change_triggers_rapid_evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution

I would imagine a combo of various phenomena could explain the gaps, not necessarily alien intervention. The devil lies, of course, in the details, and I'm not qualified to discuss those (and time, sort of...).

Again, all this is work in progress as far as science is concerned, certainly not anything final yet. Regardless they remain feasible, solid options as well.

The the reverence and worship of Dragons, Serpents and Snakes are common in almost every culture. It is not possible that they all somehow drank from the same cup of dillusions.
I suspect that there must have been historical underpinnings for these obsessions with dragons and serpents.

There are many possible explanations. One such explanation is that a race of reptilians may have visited the earth eons ago and left a lasting impact of reverence and terror on primitive humans. Again, there exist ancient scriptures that says exactly that.
The second possibility , although more far-fetched, is that a small number of reptilian sub-species of dinasaurs may have survived extinction 60 million years ago, and had continued to evolve uninterrupted in their own evolutionary chain.
Just like humans that evolved directly from mamallian apes, these reptilians evolved to an evolutionary threshold, where, they too gained self awareness and sentience. Since they had a 60 million year headstart, it wold make sense that they would have been more mentally advanced than the primitive hominid species that later evolved to modern humans.

Like I said, it sounds very far fetched, but not entirely impossible.

I do not accept that all the religious myths of aniquity were simply self-created dillusions of primitive men.
I believe that these religious and superstitious themes were built around some universal peculiar events in the very very distant past.

There is so much to be said on this subject.

italo: I never said "faith in science." You concocted that for yourself. If you want to argue with me, argue against my position, not against a position you made up for me.

I said you have "faith in what some scientists say."

Because you have shown us any evidence for the things you said.

You just believe the scientists that told you so...as I believe my clerics without empirical evidence of many spiritual truths.

Like I said, if you understand the scientific method , you would have said "faith in what some scientists say."

When a scientist makes a position on subject, I would have already known such evolved, how it had been peer reviewed, debated and vetted. therefore I would have no need to do same.
There is an implicit trust in the scientific method simply because it works all the time.
Scientist don't come out make pronouncement about their visions, revelations and conversations with god.
And, scientists do not suffer from any grand delusions of infallability.
So when I easily accept a scientific proposition, I am simply showing my confidence and trust in the scientific method, and not necessarily to the individual scientist, who I may have never heard of before.

Pastor Kun:

Trust me I understand your dilemma, how ever some of us have had profound spiritual experiences which confirms the existence of God and heaven. I know there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise but it's a good thing you are seeking for answers. I trust that God in his own time would manifest himself to you.

Trust me. I am not in any dilemma. What ever gave us a brain to think, god or evolution, expects from us an obligation to use it.

I have great doubts that skydaddy(if at all) created humans just to waste eternity in worthless supplications to him.

I keep hearing about spiritual experiences. Sooooo what?. So Have I.
Must we form a religion each time we have an epiphany.?

You and I can never have the same interpretation to the same experience.
Whereas you would see yours as conclusion, I would see mine as a question.
How does an epiphany or any spiritual experience for that matter, confirm the existence of god? How ?

God exists,god is ever present: but , but.... one needs a spiritual experience to confirm the existence of god. Does that not sound rather absurd to you?

God exists, god is ever present: But, but.....god , in his own time will manifest to me. Again does that not sound odd?
Why does god not reveal himself to all, I mean all of humanity?

Does it make sense for god to speak to pastor and not speak with the congregation as well and at once?
If god is self-evident, then why the hide and seek game?

Oga Plaetton, you don waka go far o.,

I'll do some reading and get back to the text. Though, I have to admit.. It seems your posts give a little bit of credibility to the Bible, never mind it's source...

plaetton:

Like I said, if you understand the scientific method , you would have said "faith in what some scientists say."

When a scientist makes a position on subject, I would have already known such evolved, how it had been peer reviewed, debated and vetted. therefore I would have no need to do same.
There is an implicit trust in the scientific method simply because it works all the time.
Scientist don't come out make pronouncement about their visions, revelations and conversations with god.
And, scientists do not suffer from any grand delusions of infallability.
So when I easily accept a scientific proposition, I am simply showing my confidence and trust in the scientific method, and not necessarily to the individual scientist, who I may have never heard of before.

As a scientist, i call the above ignorant nonsense. Scientists make conjectures all the time that can be grossly erroneous and have no basis in facts. Ask any industry scientist how they feel about academic scientist...

in addition, there is this misguided claim that somehow some amorphous, ill-understood "scientific process" is a foolproof system of checks and balances that ensures that whenever any scientist makes a claim, it should automatically be taken with full confidence. It is completely misguided and simply a fig leaf for those who piggy-back on "scientific claims" they cannot defend logically (i.e. they couch their own ignorance with "a scientist said it so it must be true". To say that scientists do not suffer from any grand delusions of infallibility again is a clear demonstration that the person making such a statement absolutely has no friggin clue but is just making stuff up. Google www.retractions.com and see the dramatic rise in the number of "scientific truths" that are retracted from peer-reviewed literature due to plagiarism, falsification of results and downright fraud. Not everything that has the tag "science" should be taken with more than a grain of salt...

musKeeto: Oga Plaetton, you don waka go far o.,

I'll do some reading and get back to the text. Though, I have to admit.. It seems your posts give a little bit of credibility to the Bible, never mind it's source...

I thought you'd hung your boots on matters concerning this dunghole of a forum

Mr anony:
I thought you'd hung your boots on matters concerning this dunghole of a forum

Lol. Had to swallow my pride a little. And a few interesting threads came up.. When we go fit skype?

musKeeto:
Lol. Had to swallow my pride a little. And a few interesting threads came up.. When we go fit skype?

Sure. When you wanna skype?

Mr anony:
Sure. When you wanna skype?

Free this night and tomorrow also.. Will buzz you on whatsapp.. have a lovely Thursday..

Plaetton my good friend, I can see you've made a whole lot of progress from your prior 'dogmatic' atheistic stance. At least you now entertain the possibility of 'aliens' et al.

First you discover that religion is just B.S, then you become an atheist, then you discover spirituality.

A year from now, two years from now you will come back to your old posts and you'll smile .

Regards.

plaetton:

Trust me. I am not in any dilemma. What ever gave us a brain to think, god or evolution, expects from us an obligation to use it.

I have great doubts that skydaddy(if at all) created humans just to waste eternity in worthless supplications to him.

I keep hearing about spiritual experiences. Sooooo what?. So Have I.
Must we form a religion each time we have an epiphany.?

You and I can never have the same interpretation to the same experience.
Whereas you would see yours as conclusion, I would see mine as a question.
How does an epiphany or any spiritual experience for that matter, confirm the existence of god? How ?

God exists,god is ever present: but , but.... one needs a spiritual experience to confirm the existence of god. Does that not sound rather absurd to you?

God exists, god is ever present: But, but.....god , in his own time will manifest to me. Again does that not sound odd?
Why does god not reveal himself to all, I mean all of humanity?

Does it make sense for god to speak to pastor and not speak with the congregation as well and at once?
If god is self-evident, then why the hide and seek game?

I dont know if you sincerely want the answers.

No man, I repeat no man has seen God before, Jesus made that categorically clear. God used His angels to appear to humans. and at times as His representatives, they were referred to as God, as if they were God himself.

why? because He says that no man can see Him and yet live.

Yes God has spoken to humans, though this could also have been in a representative way through the Word Jesus or through an angel. I am not saying that He hasnt spoken before. He is not dumb.

May i ask, DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE IS A SUPERNATURAL POWER? WHETHER YHWH OR OTHERS? because some scientists now believe in the supernatural powers, as it has been proven.

God knows that you dont need to see Him nor hear from Him before you know He exists.

Evolution is not a good explanation to what we see today. in a question and answer program Richard Dawkins termed the possibility of something coming from nothing as a mystery. scientists knows its impossible.

another troubling question is what is LIFE? what is that thing that its absence means irrersable death.

Jesus raised the dead, so did his apostles, yet what is this life in humans?

scientifically, life cant come from a non living thing.

Do we come from animals?

again, this raises questions. some evolutionists, knowing our difference with animals now believe in God, but thinks that He doesnt care about our affairs.

think of it; how do we gain this amazing brain that stores info and produces dreams, identifies different colors and interpretes them, enabling us to have emotional meaning to it. animals cannot do this. evolutionist test intelligence based on brain size. but research has shown that to be false. and it thru this brain size that evolutionists determine how creatures were nearer to being humans.

how did our different languages come about? animals has no vocal cords and cannot produce intelligible words, how then were we able to produce different languages?

have you explored the RNA and the DNA? these cannot evolve concurrently, but none can exist without the other. so none of them can come first and the other second. Now, doesnt it defy reason to believe that it happened? great faith indeed!

The bible explains that His creations confirm His existence that it is inexcussable. If science have discovered how life came, then why not produce that life, why cant we proof that this life can come from nonliving thing, no doubt using it to resurrect the dead. but this is unattainable.

why could this book called the bible able to make good predictions that later came true? how can it tell us where our earth is hanging when the writers had no advanced technology? how did humans in the past gain the knowledge of the contageous effect of some sicknesses when this was discovered years later by physicians? who could possibly have told this men that the dust from the ground is a possible explanation to our body makeup? granted science has made it possible for us to understand some biblical statements, however, these words have been there, they were never changed immediately after the scientific discoveries were made.

If you say you are confused about what to believe in religion, it is understandable, however, it may not be reasonable to say that there is no Supernatural Being or that nothing supernatural exists.

When i explored evolution, i thought I would have no questions again, that everything could be proven. But i was left with questions upon questions. in short the theory is filled with assumptions, which also requires my faith on impossibilities.

Some will say that faith in evolution is better. but how can that be? for eg, something cannot come from nothing. THIS IS A FACT. Yet you believe that it happened. Now I on the other hand says, somebody with a Supernatural power made it work out. granted I cannot proof His existence scientifically, just like you cant proof urs nor is yours in agreement with reason. now, which one is reasonable to cast faith on? if something cannot come from nothing, it means that something is there to make something come up. assuming that the big bang is true, what made it to occur if we are to go back to when nothing visible existed. is it not reasonable that something invisible must have done something?

another eg, LIFE CANNOT COME FROM NONLIVING THING. I said God made it possible, you said no, but you cant prove it scientifically. well, i as well cant prove it scientifically, but we have a record of humans being resurrected from the dead. which one is worthy of a reasonable faith? the one with evidence or a claim that cannot restore a life?

Just think about it.

^^^^
Something cannot come from nothing but god came from...?

musKeeto:
Lol. Had to swallow my pride a little. And a few interesting threads came up.. When we go fit skype?

My man! you need to see how striky just de insist say I be you. Despite having no evidence. No wonder he's a christian

Mr Troll: ^^^^
Something cannot come from nothing but god came from...?


My man! you need to see how striky just de insist say I be you. Despite having no evidence. No wonder he's a christian

Lol. i don even tell d guy say i no be you o... well, somethings never change...