"[size=16pt]But That's the Old Testament[/size]!"
2000

Source: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/butthatstheoldtest.html

I constantly get this phrase thrown at me. It seems that Christians are very quick to disown 90% of their "perfect" Word of God, as if they would cut out the Old Testament if they could, and use only the New Testament.

Christians always use this excuse to distance themselves from the heartless brutality of the killing of women and children at the hands of Moses, Joshua, David, etc., and yet they are sure quick to whip out Old Testament laws when it is convenient for them to do so. When the time comes for fire and brimstone, they'll quote from Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers and Judges; but when the Freethinker brings up all the genocide and cruel inhumanity contained in those books, well, then they back off and say: "That's the Old Testament. Jesus came to bring the New Covenant."

When they wish to heap upon us the 10 Commandments, the Creation Story in Genesis that they want to force into our schools, Noah and his Big Boat, the Wisdom of Solomon (well, he DID have 700 wives and 300 concubines), or ask us to swallow Jonah and his Whale, they will pull out their bibles and open up right to the appropriate Old Testament verse. But when we complain about the cruelty and irrationality of Moses, the infinite cruelty of the Plagues of Egypt and the Pharaoh who was intentionally hardened by God, the butcher Joshua, the criminal David and his murderous raids, Saul the Terrible and the murder of the Amalekites and the hewing of the captured king, they say "Well, that's the Old Testament."

Wait a minute, we are talking about THE Bible here. We are talking about the one and only God that the Christians worship, aren't we? Are there two bibles, two gods?

What these Christians are doing is arguing for something that they claim NOT to believe in, namely "moral relativism": they are saying that morality is not fixed, and changes over time as humanity changes. Go figure,

Exactly how do they do this? How do they create two bibles from the one? They say things like: "Jesus said he came to fulfill the law-- the old law passed away." I think what has happened here is that some ministers have intentionally misunderstood the book of Hebrews. It says: "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12) The laws changed, not passed away. What changed was the need for a daily animal sacrifice (Hebrews 7:27-28). That is what the New Covenant was-- Jesus was a "human sacrifice" for the forgiveness sin, replacing the Old Covenant of sacrificing burnt offerings-- slaughtered animals-- for sins. (Hebrews 8:13). See also all of Chapter 9 of Hebrews, which describes the Old Covenant of burnt offerings, and Chapter 10 which describes how the New Covenant replaces the Old for the purging of sins. THAT is what the New Covenant is all about-- it means that Christians do not have to put on the butcher's apron and slaughter goats. That's what was changed. If the Christians are right about the "old laws passing away", then we could do away with the 10 Commandments, couldn't we? The "New Covenant" does not release Christians from the killing of homosexuals, or witches, blasphemers and the worshippers of other gods either. The leaders of both the Catholic and Protestant Churches knew this when they murdered hundreds of thousands of people just a few hundred years ago.

[b] The next time some Christian tells you to live by the 10 Commandments, tell them: But that is the Old Testament. The 10 Commandments have been replaced by Jesus' new rules to live by:

Resist not evil. (Let evil take over the country, the world, I suppose?)
Love thine enemies. (What Christian ever did this? Is this even possible?) (Matthew 5:44)
Pray in secret, do not let men see you pray. (Matthew 6:1-7)
Marrying a divorced woman is adultery (carrying the death penalty). (Matthew 5:32)
Don't plan for the future. (Matthew 6:34)
Don't save money. (Matthew 6:19-20)
Don't become wealthy. (Mark 10:21-25)
Sell everything you have and give it to the poor. (Luke 12:33)
Don't work to obtain food. (John 6:27)
Don't have sexual urges. (Matthew 5:28)
Make people want to persecute you. (Matthew 5:11)
Let everyone know you are better than the rest. (Matthew 5:13-16)
Take money from those who have no savings and give it to rich investors. (Luke 19:23-26)
If someone steals from you, don't try to get it back. (Luke 6:30)
If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41)
If anyone asks you for anything, give it to them without question. (Matthew 5:42).
"Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19
[/b]


Are any of these ridiculous sayings wise? Is it possible to extract the least bit of common sense from them? Is this what you would teach to your own children?

When Christians throw up the excuse "But that's the Old Testament", I ask: "What do you mean, it's the Old Testament?" Christians say "Well, it was different in those days, " All right then-- how? How was it different, so that cruel wars of extermination and the slaughter of innocent children were perfectly acceptable to Christians? Did people value their lives less in those days? The 50,070 who were killed by God for looking into the Ark of the Covenant, the 70,000 innocent men whom God killed because Joseph chose 3 days of pestilence, the hundreds of innocent townspeople murdered by David during his thieving "raids" in Gath, the tens of thousands of children and babies butchered by Moses, Joshua and Saul, and of course, the 42 little children whom God killed for mocking one of his prophets. Did they value their lives less than we do today?

[b] Remember that Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I come not to destroy, but to fulfill." Therefore, Jesus came to fulfill Old Testament Law, such as:

Ex. 22:20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Lev. 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 31:15 Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 21:15 He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.
Ex. 21:17 He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
Lev. 20:13 If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.
Lev. 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer
and the adulteress shall be put to death.
Ex. 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
1 Sam 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft (so much for the American Revolution).
Mal. 2:1-4 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name,, behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces. (Will Jesus do the spreading of the dung??)[/b]

I can understand why Christians would want to divorce the New Testament from the bloody Old Testament. You would have to to be able to maintain any kind of moral rectitude. But honestly, it cannot be done.

The very first chapter of the very first book of the New Testament lists the genealogy of Jesus back to Abraham.

In Matthew Chapter 17, Jesus speaks to Old Testament figures Moses and Elijah, who's figures appeared before him. Moses, the monster who ordered a man's death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and who commanded Joshua to enter the Promised Land and leave no one breathing: men, women and children.

Matthew 24:37 is an undeniable link to the brutality of the Old Testament, where Jesus compares his second coming to the destruction of the Great Flood that killed the world's population.

In the New Testament Jesus makes constant references to "scripture". In Matthew 22:29 Jesus says: "You are in error, because you do not know the scriptures, or the power of God." Now, just what were these scriptures that Jesus was making reference to? The New Testament? I don't think so. At the time there was no such thing as a New Testament! There were only the scriptures of bloodthirsty villains like Moses and David. Every reference to "scripture" in the New Testament establishes one more link to the Old Testament. How many times does the New Testament refer to Old Testament "scriptures"? 52 times.

In the New Testament, Abraham is referred to 68 times, the ancient Israelites are mentioned 73 times, Jacob 26 times, Issac 20 times, Elijah 29 times, Isiah 22 times, Noah 8 times, King David is mentioned 58 times. How about this-- the name Mary (not just the Virgin Mary, but ALL Mary's) is mentioned 54 times in the New Testament. The name Moses, on the other hand, appears 80 times! You think these numbers don't establish an important connection? You don't think that Jesus held that the teachings of Moses were important?

How about this. Jesus gives an absolute endorsement of the teachings and laws of Moses. "If you believe Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45

Are you going to sit there and tell me that the New Testament is not inexorably linked in the deepest ways to the Old Testament?

Will any Christian deny that, according to the bible, Jesus is the one and only same personage as the God of the Old Testament? Did Jesus condemn ANY of his father's bloody massacres? No. In Matt 5:48 he says "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48)

Do you think Jesus would have questioned any of his father's actions, like the many acts of genocide that litter the pages of the Old Testament? No. Remember what Jesus said when he gave the Lord's Prayer to his followers-- "Our Father who art in heaven, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."

Do you think Jesus would have ever disobeyed his father's commands, like when he ordered that his servants should "kill everyone that breathes" upon their entry to the Promised Land? No. In John chapter 10 verse 30, Jesus said: "I and the Father are one." Jesus would have been swinging a sword, hacking nonviolent men, women and children to death, right along side of Joshua and his armies of Israelites! Just picture that. Jesus, the Prince of Peace, splitting a small child in two with his blood-drenched sword.

In John 1:1, we read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In verse 14, we read: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." We are told explicitly that Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT! You probably already accept this. But, by logical extension, you must also accept therefore that it was Jesus Christ who ordered the Israelites to slaughter millions of defenseless men, women and children in the conquest of Canaan; it was Jesus Christ who killed every firstborn child in Egypt; it was Jesus Christ who ordered king Saul to butcher thousands of children and babies in the genocide of the Amalakites; it was Jesus Christ who ordered the Israelites to capture and mass-rape 32,000 young girls of the Midianite tribe after killing their families; it was Jesus Christ who struck dead 50,000 innocent people at Beshemish for merely looking into the ark of the covenant; it was Jesus Christ who caused the painful asphyxiation of every man, woman, child and animal on the face of the earth during the flood of Noah (with the exception of ; and it was Jesus Christ who condemned every person ever born to a state of eternal suffering, all because 6000 years ago a curious and naive woman ate a piece of fruit. And, of course, it was Jesus Christ who sent 2 bears to chase down 42 little kids and disembowel them for just acting like kids (see What's So Bad About Killing Children?)

WWJD?


Source: http://freethought.mbdojo.com/butthatstheoldtest.html

Nice piece of writting Huxley

mazaje:

Nice piece of writting Huxley

I wish I could say it is mine.

huxley:

I wish I could say it is mind.

whats the passion behind it?

@ huxley.

Nice post. I feel ur pain and I used to feel the same way.

To reply ur post, you need to look beyond the adamic and understand the plan of God. I dont want to rant so I will make it as points.

* Long before all creation was made, God was, is and shall ever be - He is sovereign and acts as he pleases. Your view in ur post shows an ignorance of the age before ours and the ages to come.
* There was and is still a spiritual dispensation(age) created which had been existing before man was made.
* Man is unique in that he is conscious of earth; he was formed of the dust of the ground. he was conscious of d spiritual realm before d fall but it is illegal to use his spirit body now except though demonic agents - these r d astral projectors, "people were de fly for night" - do so with spiritual body, etc

This is a preamble. Now on to your grieviances.

* It is a question of sovereignity. "Dust are ye and to dust ye shall return". you are dust and you cant do anything about it. You cannot by vexing turn your composition to metal. God has made you dust. Say a human being A dies, human being A will return to dust and the spirit will return to God who gave it. God CHOSE to make man dust. He chose to make spirits spirits - he chose to make two kingdoms light and darkness.
* God said to all 'in Adam' - you will have pain in child birth(woman) and man will toil all the days of his life for his food - this is the case today. Vex and dont go to work and you will starve - its not by vexing - it is by recognising sovereignity.
* I dont like Satan and demons, but they sure exist - my prayer requests has been for God to destroy Satan so there will be peace NOW. But He doesnt answer - why? Its called sovereign will.
* The Bible teaches predestination and divine election (but we shall not go into this). It is God who removes a man from 'in adam' and puts him 'in christ'. 1 cor 1:30 - "Of Him are ye in Christ".
* Regarding the killings in the old testament, you must realise that (and this is not popular teaching), that God is a God of War. Today there is war both in heaven between kingdoms and on earth between nations. People were killed in ther old testament but we are speaking of the death of the physical body. There is a physical body and there is a spiritual body. Adam was a shadow of things to come. If people are killed in the old testament by moses etc, the God that created them can do whatever he likes with them. God is not wicked! There is an age to come that the living beings in it are not made of dust. man is tripartite - you are speaking of the body - you are ignorant that you have a spirit. You do! Whether you believe it or not. Physical death must come to all men. A spirituyal body exists after this death.
* So God can kill, save, love, dislike etc as he pleases. Satan rebelled and God foreknew this. You mention apple eating by eve as so insignificant, yes in the eyes of men. God also foreknew the rebellion of eve and adam. The crucifixion of Christ was also in the foreknowledge of the Trinity. I am going to shock you, the Bible says "Apart from the shedding of Blood there is no remission". You may say, that sounds cruel - but can the owner of the Blood not do what he wants with it. Had the Trinity decided - "Apart from waving your hand 200 times, there can be no remission"- what can you do?
* " If someone hits you, invite them to do it again. (Matthew 5:39)
If you lose a lawsuit, give more than the judgment. (Matthew 5:40)
If someone forces you to walk a mile, walk two miles. (Matthew 5:41) "
The Bible speaks of self denial. Self denial is that a Christian must deny his natural life and live by the ressurection life he received at salvation. What these verses mean is that if someone hits you, your natural self will even want to kill the person. But if you refuse to act despite being hit, you will realise that you will not be angry because it is no longer you that acted (for you would have been angry); but rather it is Christ who has acted for you (Gal 2:20) for you received him at salvation to be your life. It is an illustration of ressurection life.

About Elijah and the children, again it is the physical body that died. 1 cor 15:44. Huxley, I have news for you. Of all people that have died in the world since Adam, it is the body of dust that has died and God has sovereignity to cause to die and to cause to live.

I speak as much as I sure know.

Your post is long oh - cant reply every single thing sorry

@Obalende,
Very good explanation you proferred. However, I pray that Huxley is willing to see with a spiritual eye.

@Huxley.
The old testament is a shadow of the New testament, and a shadow of things to come. You will need to understand that the killings in Jericho etc represents God's judgement to come.

So for those who believe that there is no hell fire or that God is too kind to allow billions of unbelievers in China to go to hell. Pls look at the story of Noah's Ark, Jericho, etc. God did it before and he will not strive with man forever. He has now given examples from the past. He will do it again!!!. Pls better safe than sorry.


So rather than analyse whether God is good or not, first accept that He is at least good enough to have warned us.

Grouppoint:

@Obalende,
Very good explanation you proferred. However, I pray that Huxley is willing to see with a spiritual eye.

@Huxley.
The old testament is a shadow of the New testament, and a shadow of things to come. You will need to understand that the killings in Jericho etc represents God's judgement to come.

So for those who believe that there is no hell fire or that God is too kind to allow billions of unbelievers in China to go to hell. Please look at the story of Noah's Ark, Jericho, etc. God did it before and he will not strive with man forever. He has now given examples from the past. He will do it again!!!. Please better safe than sorry.


So rather than analyse whether God is good or not, first accept that He is at least good enough to have warned us.

I like that assessment.

Grouppoint:

@Obalende,
Very good explanation you proferred. However, I pray that Huxley is willing to see with a spiritual eye.

@Huxley.
The old testament is a shadow of the New testament, and a shadow of things to come. You will need to understand that the killings in Jericho etc represents God's judgement to come.

So for those who believe that there is no hell fire or that God is too kind to allow billions of unbelievers in China to go to hell. Please look at the story of Noah's Ark, Jericho, etc. God did it before and he will not strive with man forever. He has now given examples from the past. He will do it again!!!. Please better safe than sorry.


So rather than analyse whether God is good or not, first accept that He is at least good enough to have warned us.

This is where you lost all notions of intelligibility. Are you suggesting that the event at Jericho and the Flood were real events that happened in the past? And that this is just a foreshadow for things to come? What if I tell you that there is no evidence for either of these events and that these are just mythological fables? What would that do to your theology?

Why is your god addicted to so much violence? Do you think he enjoys killing his own creatures?

huxley:

This is where you lost all notions of intelligibility. Are you suggesting that the event at Jericho and the Flood were real events that happened in the past? And that this is just a foreshadow for things to come? What if I tell you that there is no evidence for either of these events and that these are just mythological fables? What would that do to your theology?

Why is your god addicted to so much violence? Do you think he enjoys killing his own creatures?

The belief that God can kill, maim, rape and commit all sorts of atrocities is complete nonsense. God is incapable of evil in all its raminifications. No exceptions can be made in this matter.

m_nwankwo:

The belief that God can kill, maim, rape and commit all sorts of atrocities is complete nonsense. God is incapable of evil in all its raminifications. No exceptions can be made in this matter.

I take it, your god is not the god depicted in the old testament, is it?

@ M nwankwo
What scriptures are you reading? Abba YAHAWAH could rain down on you Blessings for being an obedient son or curses for a disobedient rebellious son to HIS LAW


Deu 32:39 'Now see that I, [even] I, [am]HE , And [there is] no God (EL) with ME; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor [is there any] who can deliver from My hand

Deu 32:40   For I raise My hand to heaven,And say, "As I live forever,

Deu 32:41   If I whet My glittering sword,And My hand takes hold on judgment,I will render vengeance to My enemies,And repay those who hate Me.

Deu 32:42   I will make My arrows drunk with blood, And My sword shall devour flesh, With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."

Are you HIS enemy?


Deu 30:15   See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.


Deu 30:16   For I command you today to love YAHAWAH your Father, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and YAHAWAH your Father will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Deu 30:17   But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to strange gods (elohiym) and worship them,

Deu 30:18   I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Yardan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19   This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Deu 30:20   and that you may love YAHAWAH your Father, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For YAHAWAH is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Ab-ra-ham, Yis-ahk and Yahqob.


The choice is always yours

Salaam
Yisraylite

huxley:

I take it, your god is not the god depicted in the old testament, is it?

Wherever evil activities are attributed to God, it is simply the opinions of men irespective of the source that people are quoting. It is self contradictory for God to instruct his creatures not to kill, maim, rape, murder and then turn round and pepatrate those acts.

Yisraylite:

@ M nwankwo
What scriptures are you reading? Abba YAHAWAH could rain down on you Blessings for being an obedient son or curses for a disobedient rebellious son to HIS LAW


Deu 32:39 'Now see that I, [even] I, [am]HE , And [there is] no God (EL) with ME; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor [is there any] who can deliver from My hand

Deu 32:40 For I raise My hand to heaven,And say, "As I live forever,

Deu 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword,And My hand takes hold on judgment,I will render vengeance to My enemies,And repay those who hate Me.

Deu 32:42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood, And My sword shall devour flesh, With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."

Are you HIS enemy?


Deu 30:15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.


Deu 30:16 For I command you today to love YAHAWAH your Father, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and YAHAWAH your Father will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

Deu 30:17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to strange gods (elohiym) and worship them,

Deu 30:18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Yardan to enter and possess.

Deu 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Deu 30:20 and that you may love YAHAWAH your Father, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For YAHAWAH is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Ab-ra-ham, Yis-ahk and Yahqob.


The choice is always yours

Salaam
Yisraylite

I am aware of those quotations. My point is that God cannot commit evil. Killing, murder, rape, etc are evil acts. If God can do these things as you seem to claim, what will devil do. I wonder! Evil negates the very nature of God. It is as simple as that. Thus either the passages you cited are false or they are allegorical.

@ Nwankwo


Now we're talking, christians give so much power to Ha satan its ridiculous, even the Angel of death  obeys YHWH'S commands, but mankind won't. If YHWH permits, it happens and if HE denies,  then nothing happens

Understand before making claims of falsehoods, YHWH is the Ultimate Authority Who permits or denies any actions that are carried out on this earth.

Here is HaSatan reporting in to the Eternal Father YHWH Who has appionted hasatan to serve in a certain capacity:

Yob(Job) 1:6   Now there was a day when the sons of YHWH came to present themselves before YHWH, and Ha Satan also came among them.

Yob (Job)1:7   And YHWH said to HaSatan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered YHWH and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

Here is another spirit reporting in to the MOST HIGH, A spirit that is considered to be a lying spirit

1Ki 22:20   "And YHWH said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.

1Ki 22:21   "Then a spirit came forward and stood before YHWH, and said, 'I will persuade him.'

1Ki 22:22   "YHWH said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And YHWH said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'

1Ki 22:23   "Therefore look! YHWH has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and YHWH has declared disaster against you."


Salaam
Yisraylite

Yisraylite:

@ Nwankwo

Now we're talking, christians give so much power to Ha satan its ridiculous, even the Angel of death obeys YHWH'S commands, but mankind won't. If YHWH permits, it happens and if HE denies, then nothing happens

Here is HaSatan reporting in to the Eternal Father YHWH Who has appionted hasatan to serve in a certain capacity:

Yob(Job) 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of YHWH came to present themselves before YHWH, and Ha Satan also came among them.

Yob (Job)1:7 And YHWH said to HaSatan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered YHWH and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."


1Ki 22:20 "And YHWH said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.

1Ki 22:21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before YHWH, and said, 'I will persuade him.'

1Ki 22:22 "YHWH said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And YHWH said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'

1Ki 22:23 "Therefore look! YHWH has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and YHWH has declared disaster against you."


Salaam
Victory

Thanks for the citations. I see your point but I do not agree with it. The premise of my argument is that God cannot commit evil since evil or sin negates the very nature of God. There is no justification for evil under any circumstance. That is my point.

@ M Nwankwo


I just copied and pasted, I not making a point, I didn't write those scriptures, they are in your bible and they are quite self explanatory

Thanks

Salaam
Yisraylite

m_nwankwo:

Thanks for the citations. I see your point but I do not agree with it. The premise of my argument is that God cannot commit evil since evil or sin negates the very nature of God. There is no justification for evil under any circumstance. That is my point.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD? How do you come to know that he cannot commit evil? But Can he create evil?

@M_nwankwo,
Pls understand that sin and evil are very subjective.

Sin simply means 'disobedience to the word of God'.
The actual nature of the act is not what makes it a sin. The intent is what determines whether its a sin or evil.

Case in point: Is it really a sin to eat a fruit in the garden of eden?

, What is seen as sin now may no longer be seen as a sin  tomorrow.

Another case in point: In the 1920s it was illegal to sell or drink spirits in the US. then the church saw it as  a sin.  Now it is legal, it is no longer seen as a sin.
In biblical times, you would observe that people freely bought, sold, and kept slaves. Christ never really preached against it. In fact, Apostle Paul encouraged slaves to be loyal and obedient. Today, we see slavery as a sin.

Grouppoint:

@M_nwankwo,
Please understand that sin and evil are very subjective.

Sin simply means 'disobedience to the word of God'.
The actual nature of the act is not what makes it a sin. The intent is what determines whether its a sin or evil.

Case in point: Is it really a sin to eat a fruit in the garden of eden?

, What is seen as sin now may no longer be seen as a sin tomorrow.

Another case in point: In the 1920s it was illegal to sell or drink spirits in the US. then the church saw it as a sin. Now it is legal, it is no longer seen as a sin.
In biblical times, you would observe that people freely bought, sold, and kept slaves. Christ never really preached against it. In fact, Apostle Paul encouraged slaves to be loyal and obedient. Today, we see slavery as a sin.

Thanks. Whatever is subjective or subject to change is not the word of God. The word of God is immutable and is not subject to developmnet since it springs from omnipotent wisdom. The intent that gave rise to an action cannot be separated from the action. If the intent is not evil, then the action it results in cannot be evil. A fruit is not different from the seed that gave rise to it. There is no good intent for murder, slander, blasphemy etc. It is only human laws that are subject to change since humans are not perfect. Thus humans enact laws out of imperfect wisdom, years later they see the deficiencies, enact new laws to correct the deficies. On the contrarly, laws of God are perfect, and immutable since it came from omniscient wisdom. Thus evil and sin as defined by the laws of God is not subject to change or improvement or refinement. Thus keeping slaves is against the laws of God irrespective of wheather it happened today, ten thousand years ago, a million years from now. Thus if in biblical times people bought and sold salves, they tansgressed against the laws of God. The central message of Jesus is LOVE and LOVE contradicts all forms slavery. It is indeed suprising to hear a believer imply that Jesus never preached against slavery. "Thou shall not kill" is the law of God. It did not say "Thou shall not kill under some circumstances" Thou shallnot commit adultery" is a commandment of God. It did not say "under some circumstances, you can commit adultery" etc Therefore sin which isdisobedience to the laws of God is not subject to change or morall relativism. God equally cannot disobey his own laws. It is that simple. It is men and there laws that change. God and his laws does not change.

huxley:

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE NATURE OF GOD? How do you come to know that he cannot commit evil? But Can he create evil?

Thanks Huxley. I come to know with my spiritual faculties that God is the origin of goodness, love, justice, harmony, perfection etc and evil negates these attributes. Thus if he is all goodness, then he cannot be evil, if he is all purity, then he cannot be impure, if he is all justice, then he cannot be unjust etc. I do not believe that God created evil. Indeed it is even impossible for God to create evil. How can evil come from GOD in whose nature goodness, love, justice and perfection are personified.

@M_Nwankwo,
I would have loved to agree with your views, because they are idealistic. But you know it is not so.

God said Thou shall not kill. However, He also said ( in ecclestiastes 3: 3) there is a time to kill. It is not a contradiction, and I can explain this if you wish.

Your notion that evil cannot come from God suggests that there is a being equal and opposite to God.
Everything comes from God. It is in our choices and what we do with the gifts of God that determines if its a sin or evil. whenever our choices oppose the word of God, then we have sinned.

pls tell me is it a sin to eat a fruit in a garden today? Would you not agree that it is the disobeience that constitutes a sin. Just as sex in not a sin, except when done outside God's chosen order. i.e. The order of marriage.

Everything has its source from God, whether good or evil. And it is subjective. Subject to the when , where and the intent. The Why
That is why Christ preached more about the intent in the pharisees heart, rather than their actions.

Are you surprised that I said Christ did not preach much against slavery? If you know that he did, pls show me. There is no need to cover the issue with Love. If that were the case, then Christ should not have preached specifically about all the issues of the day including sowing and reaping, blessing, healing.

@ Grouppoint

Even the fake new testament can't twist the definition of sin, or else the vatican scribes would be busted!!

Here it is


1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jam 2:8  If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:


Jam 2:9  But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.


Jam 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.


Jam 2:11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.


Jam 2:12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


They acknowdge this, but teach you that YHWH'S LAW is done away with by teaching you this crap:


Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

When YHWH says this:

Ecc 12:13   Here is the conclusion: Reverence YAHAWAH and obey HIS Commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.
(Not  Hebrew, Moslem, Christian or Jew, but all mankind period!)

What a mystery book of confusion ie the vatican compiled new testament

Bro, the Law is not subjective. Do not murder means do not murder  and 1000 years from now do not murder would still be do not  murder

This is the probelm with these greek translations, YHWH never said do not kill HE said do not murder

King David did kill Goliath of Garth, and the armies of Yisrayl killed lots of philistines in battle

@ M .Nwankwo

"Therefore sin which isdisobedience to the laws of God is not subject to change or morall relativism. God equally cannot disobey his own laws. It is that simple. It is men and there laws that change. God and his laws does not change. "


Knowing this, do you keep the Law?
Salaam
Yisraylite

Grouppoint:

@M_Nwankwo,
I would have loved to agree with your views, because they are idealistic. But you know it is not so.

God said Thou shall not kill. However, He also said ( in ecclestiastes 3: 3) there is a time to kill. It is not a contradiction, and I can explain this if you wish.

Your notion that evil cannot come from God suggests that there is a being equal and opposite to God.
Everything comes from God. It is in our choices and what we do with the gifts of God that determines if its a sin or evil. whenever our choices oppose the word of God, then we have sinned.

please tell me is it a sin to eat a fruit in a garden today? Would you not agree that it is the disobeience that constitutes a sin. Just as sex in not a sin, except when done outside God's chosen order. i.e. The order of marriage.

Everything has its source from God, whether good or evil. And it is subjective. Subject to the when , where and the intent. The Why
That is why Christ preached more about the intent in the pharisees heart, rather than their actions.

Are you surprised that I said Christ did not preach much against slavery? If you know that he did, please show me. There is no need to cover the issue with Love. If that were the case, then Christ should not have preached specifically about all the issues of the day including sowing and reaping, blessing, healing.

Thanks again. We can discuss the origin of evil and how it came about in another thread if you are interested. Your argument that both good and evil comes fromGod leaves an insurmoutable moral dilema. If God created evil, why then will he punish those that make use of the evil he created. Is it not absurd that God created evil and then at the same time allows his creatures to choose between good and evil. What then is the purpose of evil if God created it. Every physical action spring from intent wheather or not the pepatrator is concious or unconscious of it. An evil intent may or may not manifest in physical action. Thus a person with lust in his heart is commiting a sin wheather or not that lust is consumated physically. Are there  circumstances in which lust as an intent is not a sin. Are there  circumstances in which slavery is not a sin. Are there circumstance in which slander and gossip are not  sins. Are there circumstances in which murder is not a sin. Are there circumstances in which slavery is not a sin. Are there circumstances in which ethnic  cleansing is not a sin etc. Are their circumstances in which the intent to murder is according to the laws of God. Are their circumstances in which the intent to sleep with your neigbors wife is according to the laws of God. Are there circumstances in which the intent to keep slaves are the word of God etc

If "god" says that it is his will or his word that you should kill, maim, rape, lust, keep slaves, then I will tell that "god" that he is no God. A god that creates evil, practices moral relativism is not the creator, the almighty God. It is that simple.

Yisraelite,
I believe that you are elucidating my point. The act of sin lies in the disobedience to the word (Law) of God.

I also understand that God said 'do not murder' (rather than do not kill). I was going to expound on that. You just beat me to it.

However, it could be argued that the events at  Canaan, Jericho etc of men, women, and even children cannot be said to be anything other than murder. Which is why I try to explain that if God commands it, it is no longer a sin, for His word is above all things.

The reason why I say these things are subjective is that right now, there are people who believe that all persons who go to work, pay taxes  and obey civil govts support whatever their govts do. Hence are co-sinners with their govt, since it is with their taxes that these state crimes are comitted. If you live in the UK, US or Nigeria, you would know that your govt wages unholy, and unfair wars.

Do you accept such a label?

@M_Nwankwo,
Suppose you were living in the days of 'an eye for an eye', or worse yet, the days of 'survival of the fittest', when every man would kill for his own survival. Do you think God was not alive then?

We are looking for a perfect God. The problem is that we are defining perfection by our understanding. That is why the jews missed the messaiah. They were looking for a regal figure, who was a man of war, that would deliver them from their earthly bondage. But instead came the son of a carpenter.

Grouppoint:

@M_Nwankwo,
Suppose you were living in the days of 'an eye for an eye', or worse yet, the days of 'survival of the fittest', when every man would kill for his own survival. Do you think God was not alive then?

We are looking for a perfect God. The problem is that we are defining perfection by our understanding. That is why the jews missed the messaiah. They were looking for a regal figure, who was a man of war, that would deliver them from their earthly bondage. But instead came the son of a carpenter.

God is perfect. If you claim that I define perfection by my understanding, then define perfection as your god will define it. There was never a time when an eye for an eye is the law of God or survival of the fittest is the word of God or every man will kill for his on survival. I strongly dispute those claims and hold that that they do not come from God. Look at world events and you will see ample evidence where God was used to justify the most abhorrent evils. The crusades, the jihads, the inquisition etc were carried out because the pepatrators believed that it is the word of God to do so. Several doom day cults have murdered their fellow human beings because they believed God told them. Apartied was justfied by some people because they believed it is according to the word of God. Whenever a claim is made that something is the word of God, I will ask is it perfect, is it holy, is it just, is it love. Love, justice, perfection, omniscience, omnipotence etc are the attributes of God and that should form the correct appraisal for the right faith in God.

m_nwankwo:

God is perfect. If you claim that I define perfection by my understanding, then define perfection as your god will define it. There was never a time when an eye for an eye is the law of God or survival of the fittest is the word of God or every man will kill for his on survival. I strongly dispute those claims and hold that that they do not come from God. Look at world events and you will see ample evidence where God was used to justify the most abhorrent evils. The crusades, the jihads, the inquisition etc were carried out because the pepatrators believed that it is the word of God to do so. Several doom day cults have murdered their fellow human beings because they believed God told them. Apartied was justfied by some people because they believed it is according to the word of God. Whenever a claim is made that something is the word of God, I will ask is it perfect, is it holy, is it just, is it love. Love, justice, perfection, omniscience, omnipotence etc are the attributes of God and that should form the correct appraisal for the right faith in God.

Is perfection and imperfection only an illusion? By the way, what is perfection? Can a perfect being give rise to imperfection?

huxley:

Is perfection and imperfection only an illusion? By the way, what is perfection? Can a perfect being give rise to imperfection?

Hi again. I do not think perfection or imperfection is an illusion. By perfection I mean eternal unchangable. Only God is perfect. No, I do not believe that imperfection can come from God or from the laws of God. Thanks

@ Grouppoint

Please stop misrepresenting the words of Torah especially if you don't know what your talking about

The Torah NEVER  taught you to observe an eye for an eye as a LAW

Only the Judges could set this judgment before the people.

This Instruction was specifically given to ONLY the Yisraylite Judges when ruling only on matters such as:


Exd 21:1   "NOW these are the judgments which you shall set before them:


Exd 21:22   If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Exd 21:23   "But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, <---- here is the condition for this ruling

Exd 21:24   "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Exd 21:25   "burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Lev 24:19   'If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him--

Lev 24:20   'fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him.

Lev 24:21   'And whoever kills an animal shall restore it; but whoever murders a man shall be put to death.

Lev 24:22   'You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I am YHWH your Father.'

Deu 19:16   "If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,

Deu 19:17   "then both men in the controversy shall stand before YHWH, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days.

Deu 19:18   "And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,

Deu 19:19   "then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you.

Deu 19:20   "And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.

Deu 19:21   "Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot



This instruction is specific to the above mentioned situations ONLY!!!!


Salaaam
Yisraylite

m_nwankwo:

Hi again. I do not think perfection or imperfection is an illusion. By perfection I mean eternal unchangable. Only God is perfect. No, I do not believe that imperfection can come from God or from the laws of God. Thanks

Does that mean imperfection is defined as transient and changeable? Are there things in the universe that are changeable? If so, are they imperfect? If they are imperfect, are they NOT from God?

Basically, whence imperfection?

huxley:

Does that mean imperfection is defined as transient and changeable? Are there things in the universe that are changeable? If so, are they imperfect? If they are imperfect, are they NOT from God?

Basically, whence imperfection?

Hi again. Yes, transience, changeability are some of the attributes of imperfection. The entire material universe is transient and subject to change. It is subject to birth, growth, death, decay and transformation leading to a new cycle. Thus, the phases of the cycle is transient and changeable. In God lies the creative power for the coming into existence of all creations. When and where God uses his creative power, the universes, the species and creatures that precipitate from the creative power of God is also "perfect" However creatures of God can also use the creative power of God (stepped down to their own level) to form universes and worlds. Where these creatures are gifted with free will, then they serve as prisms that absorb this power of God and apply it according to their own free will. It is this application of the power of God by creatures with free will that results in imperfections in the world of matter. Thus the power of God, even the stepped down form of it is perfect but by the exersise of free will, the perfect power can be applied to form imperfect things. It is human beings with free will that apply the power of God, and the application determines wheather it will lead to the beauty of paradise or the torment of hell. However since this power does not belong to man but is burrowed from God, man is accountable to the lender of the power (God) for how he used it. Therefore imperfections arose out of the misapplication of the power of God by man. Man with the gift of free will has the ability to direct the power of God as he so chooses but is absolutely responsible and bound to the consequences of his application. Man as a specie in creation (human spirit) came into existence when the power of God has been completely stepped down to permit the coming into existence of the free will. The worlds that arose when the power of God has not be stepped down is perfect and creaturesures that arose in it are perfect beings. That world is what is refered as the Divine sphere. Human beings did not originate in the divine ssphere, we came into existence as spirit germs in the lowest planes of the spiritual sphere, the so called heaven. Just like the mango seed has the possiblity of developing into a tree bearing fruit if sown on the correct soil, the human spirit seed has the potential of developing into a human being with a self conscious spiritual form if sown on the correct soil. The soil for the cultivation of the human spirit germs is the world of matter of which our earth is just one of the essential ingredients of this soil. In order to develop the human spirit seed is gifted by the creator with the talent of free will. Experiencing in the world of matter will force this talent to develop into ability. The spirit germ or seed is pure since it came from the power of God but the spiritual tree it develops to may be pure or impure as that is dependent on the application of free will. If the spiritual form acquired is in accordance to the purity of the power of God, then a spirit seed becaomes a spiritual tree with a form and a name and will return back to heaven. What it left as an unconscious spirit seed, it came back as a developed "perfect"human spirit with self consciousness. It is then a true servant of God and from heaven, it will joyfully mediate the power of God to regions below paradise for all eternity. However if the human spirit sent to the world of matter for development misapplied his free will to create or rather form imperfections and sins, then that spirit will be chained with the world of matter and will undergo death and decay with the world of matter. That decay will dissolve the self counsious spiritual form it has acquired, a process generally refered as eternal damnation. Such a human spirit ceases to exist since it has no form and no name. Thus because the power of God is perfect, imperfections that result from its misapplication by human beings can only exist for a time. In the end the power of God trapped in these imperfect forms and worlds will liberate itself by destroying the all imperfections. Thus in the end even the world of matter will be a reflection of the perfection that exists in the spiritual planes that are closer to the proximity of God.

Perharps, you will once again ask where I got what I state above. The source I draw from is the book "In The Light of Truth-The Grail Message". Thanks

m_nwankwo:

Hi again. Yes, transience, changeability are some of the attributes of imperfection. The entire material universe is transient and subject to change. It is subject to birth, growth, death, decay and transformation leading to a new cycle. Thus, the phases of the cycle is transient and changeable. In God lies the creative power for the coming into existence of all creations. When and where God uses his creative power, the universes, the species and creatures that precipitate from the creative power of God is also "perfect" However creatures of God can also use the creative power of God (stepped down to their own level) to form universes and worlds. Where these creatures are gifted with free will, then they serve as prisms that absorb this power of God and apply it according to their own free will. It is this application of the power of God by creatures with free will that results in imperfections in the world of matter. Thus the power of God, even the stepped down form of it is perfect but by the exersise of free will, the perfect power can be applied to form imperfect things. It is human beings with free will that apply the power of God, and the application determines wheather it will lead to the beauty of paradise or the torment of hell. However since this power does not belong to man but is burrowed from God, man is accountable to the lender of the power (God) for how he used it. Therefore imperfections arose out of the misapplication of the power of God by man. Man with the gift of free will has the ability to direct the power of God as he so chooses but is absolutely responsible and bound to the consequences of his application. Man as a specie in creation (human spirit) came into existence when the power of God has been completely stepped down to permit the coming into existence of the free will. The worlds that arose when the power of God has not be stepped down is perfect and creaturesures that arose in it are perfect beings. That world is what is refered as the Divine sphere. Human beings did not originate in the divine ssphere, we came into existence as spirit germs in the lowest planes of the spiritual sphere, the so called heaven. Just like the mango seed has the possiblity of developing into a tree bearing fruit if sown on the correct soil, the human spirit seed has the potential of developing into a human being with a self conscious spiritual form if sown on the correct soil. The soil for the cultivation of the human spirit germs is the world of matter of which our earth is just one of the essential ingredients of this soil. In order to develop the human spirit seed is gifted by the creator with the talent of free will. Experiencing in the world of matter will force this talent to develop into ability. The spirit germ or seed is pure since it came from the power of God but the spiritual tree it develops to may be pure or impure as that is dependent on the application of free will. If the spiritual form acquired is in accordance to the purity of the power of God, then a spirit seed becaomes a spiritual tree with a form and a name and will return back to heaven. What it left as an unconscious spirit seed, it came back as a developed "perfect"human spirit with self consciousness. It is then a true servant of God and from heaven, it will joyfully mediate the power of God to regions below paradise for all eternity. However if the human spirit sent to the world of matter for development misapplied his free will to create or rather form imperfections and sins, then that spirit will be chained with the world of matter and will undergo death and decay with the world of matter. That decay will dissolve the self counsious spiritual form it has acquired, a process generally refered as eternal damnation. Such a human spirit ceases to exist since it has no form and no name. Thus because the power of God is perfect, imperfections that result from its misapplication by human beings can only exist for a time. In the end the power of God trapped in these imperfect forms and worlds will liberate itself by destroying the all imperfections. Thus in the end even the world of matter will be a reflection of the perfection that exists in the spiritual planes that are closer to the proximity of God.

Perharps, you will once again ask where I got what I state above. The source I draw from is the book "In The Light of Truth-The Grail Message". Thanks

How can we verify the truth value of all these? Why is this anymore true than the claims of the Aztecs, Mayan, etc?

You can verify it with your spiritual faculties of which intuition is one of it. In addition you can verify it by observing your own experiences, that of your neighbours, nature etc. Even though you do not believe in the existence of God, at least you can verify the material part of the post with what you observe around you, and even with the findings of science. I am not sure you can dispute that matter is subject to birth, growth, death, decay and transformation. You can see it in a yam that is sown or in a corn seed that is sown or in the birth and death of stars or even in the birth and death of the human body. Thanks.