Radoillo:
I don't want to get entangled in Yoruba oral traditions (being a non-Yoruba myself, one could easily say i'm talking what I don't know). But it seems that prominent Yoruba historians among them Ade Obayemi, Akinjogbin, J.F.A Ajayi, Biodun Adediran etc agree that Oduduwa was not the earliest ancestor of the Yorubas, and that the coming of Oduduwa marked a new phase, but not the first phase, of Yoruba history. If you read the chapter, 'Yorubaland to 1800' in the book 'Groundwork of Nigerian History', Akinjogbin and Ajayi mentioned the names of some Kings who were said to have rule in Ile-Ife before the coming of Oduduwa. The last of these pre-Oduduwa kings of Ife (according to Akinjogbin and Ajayi's account) was said to be Obatala, who Oduduwa took over power from.

Anyway, many accounts (different accounts) of those very early times exist. One cannot quite easy say to what extent each of these accounts contain the truth. My opinion, though.

Yes, that seems to be on track.

9jacrip:


I typed a lengthy response but I mistakenly closed browser and lost it but I'll attempt a summary.

BabaYeye is one of Orisa Nla's numerous names.

No, Osangangan is another person's (Obamakin) name.

Yes, I do know the Oriki/Chant well.

Obalesun is the name Obatala was called when he got drunk off palm wine and slept - ara orun were amazed and said 'Oba le sun' (Ife accent/intonation) - so the king can sleep/so the king sleeps/so the king could sleep.

This became an appellation for the person standing in place of Obatala whose is regarded as Obalesun just as Araba is used to refer to the representative of Orunmila. So Obalesun was not a title for Obatala, he was regarded as Obatala, Orisa Nla, BabaYeye, Obataasa - makes sense?


Idita is a nomenclature used to encompass the entire lineage of Olorisa. Iranje is/was a town both of which Obatala is/was the head.


In Idita, there are two lines. The Ilesun (descendants) and Ilale (the slaves killed for sacrifices back then and non descendants). Only the Ilesun (blood descents) can be Obalesun and every house titles while the Ilale could only become Obalale - second to Obalesun (the max for them) and some selective titles.

Note: an Ilesun could also be an Obalale.

The idita is a encompassing term for all lines of the family (descendants) with each 'oba' heading an 'eku'

Obalesun - paramount head of idita.
Obanurin
Obalepon
Bale
Orisagbuyin
Obaluru
Orisawusi
Leemo

Etc

There are others -- some of these were names of other Obatala's children who started the family. Asides Olufon who moved to another quarters in Ife to start his line then later moved to Ifon close Osogbo to found the town.

In Yoruba towns, Obatala his called different names and worshipped differently but many worship his offsprings same way they worship him - like Ifon is worshipped but with slight differences/taboos.

So if you find something different in your town, it is as a result of that or environmental factors.

Between there's Itapa street or area in Ekiti.

Pardon the grammartical gbagauns in between

can u explain more on the bold part
Is Idita not a single town and Iranje another town?
Most of Obatala's praises you would hear something like "Abi lode ugbo o lo j'oba lode Iranje" and it seems there are occasions that Obalale and Obaluru are identified with Iranje
And then you say Idita is jst a nomenclature for all compounds where Obatala descendants are...including Iranje? And maybe Ifon and Ife-ijebu outside Ile-Ife since he has descendants there too

Btw is this the [url=http//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Prince_Ademola]Ifon[/url] you are referring to? You should also note that the link states that Obatala ruled Ife before and after oduduwa

Am jst trying understand Obatala's personality better cus there are so many aspects of Yoruba that ultimately point to him, I noticed he is known by names in some towns Unknown to other towns like am sure Ife don't call him Olu-iwaye (I used to think this was oduduwa), Obatakuntakun, Orisa Olufon = closely related to Obalufon

macof:


can u explain more on the bold part
Is Idita not a single town and Iranje another town?
Most of Obatala's praises you would hear something like "Abi lode ugbo o lo j'oba lode Iranje" and it seems there are occasions that Obalale and Obaluru are identified with Iranje
And then you say Idita is jst a nomenclature for all compounds where Obatala descendants are...including Iranje? And maybe Ifon and Ife-ijebu outside Ile-Ife since he has descendants there too

Btw is this the [url=http//en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Prince_Ademola]Ifon[/url] you are referring to? You should also note that the link states that Obatala ruled Ife before and after oduduwa

Am jst trying understand Obatala's personality better cus there are so many aspects of Yoruba that ultimately point to him, I noticed he is known by names in some towns Unknown to other towns like am sure Ife don't call him Olu-iwaye (I used to think this was oduduwa), Obatakuntakun, Orisa Olufon = closely related to Obalufon

As regard the emboldened, I really have not asked much about Iranje, when I go to Ife next week I'll see to it but Iranje ile and Iranje Oko were/are towns with Obatala being the King (I do not know where these towns are or if they have another names now)

Idita is the entirety of Olorisa Family in Ile-Ife not all compounds olorisa are sir - Olorisa family compound in Ife alone not inclusive of Ifon, Ijebu Ife etc.

If you're familiar with Ife - Idita is a land mass that starts from Mokuro Junction opposite Moore police station down to Ife boundary to Ilesa. There is a idita temple/palace/shrine there which Obalesun presides over but we mostly go there during festival to say prayers. The idita is a settlement for Olorisa compound folks to settle with Obalesun being our king and simultaneously the King at Itapa (Maybe this is the Iranje Ile and Iranje Oko?).

I've never heard that praise line bro, can you post the entire thing or share a bit more of it?

Obalale and Obaluru are offsprings of Obatala -- Leemo is Obatala's last child. So the entire Oba starting from Obalesun are all part of Idita and linked with Iranje.

I have read the link your provided, there are many errors in it and some tiny truths:

Obatala never became King after Oduduwa, he ruled Ife before the power tussle. This is why Obatala wears the crown for a certain number of days before any new Ooni is coronated/crowned as King and Olorisa folks play a major role at coronation/crowning process.

It was Ifon, Obatala's first son who left the temple at Ife and established his family compound in Ife - his descendants are there and the Chief Priest is called 'Olufon' - every other Ifon are under him directly as he and them fall under Obalesun. I was still with Olufon during Obatala festival in January and we talked about this.

The Olufon in Ife worships Ifon separately but has a right to Obatala also. In Ifon, they worship Ifon but mix it up with worshipping Obatala. For example Ifon permits consumption of ewedu, Obatala does not.

Just like Ogboni was started by Obatala's son with the space he started it being at the temple till today - other Ogbonis arose from it but they know their history began with Obatala's son.

Orisa Olufon is Ifon not Obatala.

We also call him Obatakuntakun.

Another town call him Orisa popo.

Thanks brother.

I want to tell u about this ese from a Babalawo I heard from TV

Ototo n'Ifa je
Ototo ni a n j'epa
Ototo ni a n so olu esunsun s'enu
Ohun toori ni je ti ori
Ohun toori ni to ori
Ohun toori la fi fun Obamakin lode Iranje

is this not the same obamakin that is osangangan? Surely it is. What is his relationship with Iranje?


9jacrip:

macof:
Thanks brother.

I want to tell u about this ese from a Babalawo I heard from TV

Ototo n'Ifa je
Ototo ni a n j'epa
Ototo ni a n so olu esunsun s'enu
Ohun toori ni je ti ori
Ohun toori ni to ori
Ohun toori la fi fun Obamakin lode Iranje

is this not the same obamakin that is osangangan? Surely it is. What is his relationship with Iranje?


9jacrip:

I missed this mention sir, apologies.
I will do some questionings on that; plus under what Ifa Odu is that verse?

9jacrip:


I missed this mention sir, apologies.
I will do some questionings on that; plus under what Ifa Odu is that verse?

Mr good sir, you must have been busy

I don't know the Odu...I heard it from TV
A Babalawo was divining and recited that verse in the movie

macof:

Mr good sir, you must have been busy

I don't know the Odu...I heard it from TV
A Babalawo was divining and recited that verse in the movie

Yup been busy with exams.
Movie?
I'll ask still sha, I'll get back to you on it.

9jacrip:


Yup been busy with exams.
Movie?
I'll ask still sha, I'll get back to you on it.

Yes Yoruba movie..am sure that particular actor is a full Babalawo, he's always reciting good verses
I'll try getting his name

macof:


Yes Yoruba movie..am sure that particular actor is a full Babalawo, he's always reciting good verses
I'll try getting his name

Ok sir.
Would be nice to get his name.

Please, I want you to tell me more about Eniti a bi ni Ugbo to lo joba lode Iranje. Is Iranje in Ile-Ife or where?
Was Obatala born in Ugbo in Ile-Ife?
Where is Ugbo located or was Ile-Ife called Ugbo at a time?

Syogbe:
Please, I want you to tell me more about Eniti a bi ni Ugbo to lo joba lode Iranje. Is Iranje in Ile-Ife or where?
Was Obatala born in Ugbo in Ile-Ife?
Where is Ugbo located or was Ile-Ife called Ugbo at a time?

To answer your Q:

Iranje us in Ile-Ife, the entirety of Iranje Ile & Iranje Oko is called Idita-Iranje.

Quite a tricky question because there were different groups & Obawinrin was the head of Ugbo. Obatala was forced out of town but was invited over to stay with Obawinrin at Igbo-Ugbo [Ugbo Forest is still in Ife], it was from here attacks were launched into Ife till Moremi stepped in. Obatala reluctantly went to join Obawinrin who stepped down from his throne and crowned Obatala King [Obatala Oba Ugbo or Oserema’gbo]. He noved to Iranje oko from here and continued to rule as king till he was appeased back to his palace at Iranje Ile.

Ugbo was one of the 16 groups in Ife. They are still there today and their king remains Obawinrin.

Why do you ask these questions?

@ OrisaEsu, there is something about oriki idilè that had been patterned to connect each Yoruba person back to his or her root at ILE IFE. And it is a definition of where exactly such individual comes from in Yoruba land and perpetually leading one back to settlements in ILE IFE , originally were somehow known as sixteen but compressed by Odua and his loyalist during the clan fracas. One's root may not necessarily be the pivotal place to one's successfulness in life but identifying with such place will always be source of inspiration from where one can draw one's strength. There is something I will draw your attention to and it is the difference between the original Ogboni and the reform Ogboni. The ancient Ogboni from the Obatala's descendants were seen as a rebellious group by the Odua descendants. There is more though but let me infer here that at the tail end of 19th-early/ mid 20th century, the ILE IFE emigrants to other places fused together, through attestation of Oranmiyan sword symbol on each princes emigration, religious beliefs and intermarriages irrespective of the power tussle between Odua and Obatala descendants against invaders. This was how the reform Ogboni came into existence.

OrisaEsu:


To answer your Q:

Iranje us in Ile-Ife, the entirety of Iranje Ile & Iranje Oko is called Idita-Iranje.

Quite a tricky question because there were different groups & Obawinrin was the head of Ugbo. Obatala was forced out of town but was invited over to stay with Obawinrin at Igbo-Ugbo [Ugbo Forest is still in Ife], it was from here attacks were launched into Ife till Moremi stepped in. Obatala reluctantly went to join Obawinrin who stepped down from his throne and crowned Obatala King [Obatala Oba Ugbo or Oserema’gbo]. He noved to Iranje oko from here and continued to rule as king till he was appeased back to his palace at Iranje Ile.

Ugbo was one of the 16 groups in Ife. They are still there today and their king remains Obawinrin.

Why do you ask these questions?

Eni ti a bi ni Ugbo to lo joba lode Iranje... here meaning
Born in Ugbo, became king at Iranje

Seems to imply Ugbo had always existed, not created due to opposition against Oduduwa and is the birthplace of Obatala

Also Ugbo(Ilaje) recognize Obamakin Osangangan as first Olugbo

Olu317:
@ OrisaEsu, there is something about oriki idilè that had been patterned to connect each Yoruba person back to his or her root at ILE IFE. And it is a definition of where exactly such individual comes from in Yoruba land and perpetually leading one back to settlements in ILE IFE , originally were somehow known as sixteen but compressed by Odua and his loyalist during the clan fracas. One's root may not necessarily be the pivotal place to one's successfulness in life but identifying with such place will always be source of inspiration from where one can draw one's strength. There is something I will draw your attention to and it is the difference between the original Ogboni and the reform Ogboni. The ancient Ogboni from the Obatala's descendants were seen as a rebellious group by the Odua descendants. There is more though but let me infer here that at the tail end of 19th-early/ mid 20th century, the ILE IFE emigrants to other places fused together, through attestation of Oranmiyan sword symbol on each princes emigration, religious beliefs and intermarriages irrespective of the power tussle between Odua and Obatala descendants against invaders. This was how the reform Ogboni came into existence.

This is an interesting thought, baba.

The first emboldened is very true, oriki idile was one of our father & mother’s way of keeping our connections to our various sources intact.

- The second emboldened, baba, I can’t say for sure if Ogboni Ideta was rebellious but I do know every Ooni has to initiate into it before anything else. Every Ooni also brings calabash of food every year barefeet walking 7 times to and from his palace. This started from Oduduwa & it was one of the ways Oduduwa won the battle but lost most of the victory. It is why every Ooni is called ‘Alase ekeji orisa’, Obatala is the only deity known as Orisa in the whole pantheon - apologies that I digressed. The Ogboni then was to break Oduduwa’s wings, it had him tied down and subject to Obatala who co-ruled with him but from behind the scene. Might I add that Obatala owned the Are crown too and joininh the Ogboni was one of the conditions upon which every Ooni could be given the crown.


- Baba what you alluded to as the formation of ROF is not correct o except you’ve confused ROF for Ogboni Ibile. ROF was formed in the Nigeria colonial era in the Anglican church.

macof:


Eni ti a bi ni Ugbo to lo joba lode Iranje... here meaning
Born in Ugbo, became king at Iranje

Seems to imply Ugbo had always existed, not created due to opposition against Oduduwa and is the birthplace of Obatala

Also Ugbo(Ilaje) recognize Obamakin Osangangan as first Olugbo

Yes Ugbo group existed, their section was/is Iwinrin in the ancient 13 communities. This Iwinrin clan was in existence as at the time Obatala’s Iranje-Ideta was in existence. So I can’t speak on him being born at Ugbo except it is a figurative expression of his pact with Ugbo when they moved from Iwinrin to Igbo-Ugbo in protest against being ruled by an usurper [also still in existene].

They [Ilaje] call him Oronmakin, it may have been him or another person who became the first Olugbo when they got to their present site.

Why do I say this? After Oduduwa was taken out, Osangangan became king in Ile-Ife. How could he have been an Olugbo at the same time? Except he was the Obawinrin while they were In Igbo-Ugbo because as told to me by uncle, Obatala went to meet Obamakin at Igbo-Ugbo and the latter stepped down from his throne for Obatala to become king - hence ‘Obatala Oba Ugbo’, ‘Obatala Oseremagbo’.

Obatala’s side practically customized the crown — this is making me theorize it may have been the reason all of his children both male & female left Ife. If it was not for Oranmiyan who came back to wage another war, Oduduwa’s connection to ife throne may not have been prominent.

OrisaEsu:


This is an interesting thought, baba.

The first emboldened is very true, oriki idile was one of our father & mother’s way of keeping our connections to our various sources intact.

- The second emboldened, baba, I can’t say for sure if Ogboni Ideta was rebellious but I do know every Ooni has to initiate into it before anything else. Every Ooni also brings calabash of food every year barefeet walking 7 times to and from his palace. This started from Oduduwa & it was one of the ways Oduduwa won the battle but lost most of the victory. It is why every Ooni is called ‘Alase ekeji orisa’, Obatala is the only deity known as Orisa in the whole pantheon - apologies that I digressed. The Ogboni then was to break Oduduwa’s wings, it had him tied down and subject to Obatala who co-ruled with him but from behind the scene. Might I add that Obatala owned the Are crown too and joininh the Ogboni was one of the conditions upon which every Ooni could be given the crown.


- Baba what you alluded to as the formation of ROF is not correct o except you’ve confused ROF for Ogboni Ibile. ROF was formed in the Nigeria colonial era in the Anglican church.

Hmmmm, at your second, emboldened, you really want to draw me Out of my shell.....Well, I am sure you are an ILE IFE indigene and you have knowledge about certain tradition as it seems. Like I said, Ogboni came during the period after Odua and not during his lifetime. This was the account according to Lafogido descendants that went forth and back to conquer and return back to ILE IFE. There are so many things some Awos tried to change due so many things my dear which was the actual reason many flee from Awos because of ritual that each individual has to embark once an Awo's assistance is needed. And some of these Awos became dubious by asking the poor seeker to give what he or she cannot afford. I know this part well as it regard Igba keji orisa because Igba ke ji Orisa wasn't about Ogboni but ancestors or gods as it seems because Ogboni were all under every king once each individual emerge as a king. If I may ask you, who is/was the real ORISA? Why does IFA has an edge over all Obas and not under any Oba , no matter how powerful or spiritually sound such Oba ? . So many things posted online that I smile when I read them. Odua was not curtailed in anyway because he was spiritually sound. Knowing Juju (oooogun) and might had everything to do to curtail him but he wasn't . This is the reason that odua descendants can only be initiated into Ogboni once such become King or Ooni. Ogboni remained under the king and the king assumed the headship whenever a king is made in any community. This is what I know. Oranmiyan was very powerful when he returned back to ILE IFE.... Well, On reform Ogboni, I have opened a chapter here and am sure people will come with their opinion. However, I am opportune to know this because Eledumare gave me such privilege.

OrisaEsu:



Yes Ugbo group existed, their section was/is Iwinrin in the ancient 13 communities. This Iwinrin clan was in existence as at the time Obatala’s Iranje-Ideta was in existence. So I can’t speak on him being born at Ugbo except it is a figurative expression of his pact with Ugbo when they moved from Iwinrin to Igbo-Ugbo in protest against being ruled by an usurper [also still in existene].

They [Ilaje] call him Oronmakin, it may have been him or another person who became the first Olugbo when they got to their present site.

Why do I say this? After Oduduwa was taken out, Osangangan became king in Ile-Ife. How could he have been an Olugbo at the same time? Except he was the Obawinrin while they were In Igbo-Ugbo because as told to me by uncle, Obatala went to meet Obamakin at Igbo-Ugbo and the latter stepped down from his throne for Obatala to become king - hence ‘Obatala Oba Ugbo’, ‘Obatala Oseremagbo’.

Obatala’s side practically customized the crown — this is making me theorize it may have been the reason all of his children both male & female left Ife. If it was not for Oranmiyan who came back to wage another war, Oduduwa’s connection to ife throne may not have been prominent.

I think we are saying the same thing; lemme try to rephrase if i understand you correctly...Ugbo used to be part of/or the general name for Obawinrin's land but Obatala supporters moved futher to Igbo-Ugbo(modern Mokuro area) where they were led by Obamakin who later stepped down for Obatala? Is that it? Cus that is my thought

As to Ilaje, the fact that Ugbo kept raiding Ile-ife long after the death of Oduduwa from their base in the forest, shows that Obamakin didn't lead them to modern Ondo state (either Ogun or Oranmiyan was Ooni at this time). His status as the king before he stepped down for Obatala is probably what makes him recognized as the first Olugbo

macof:


I think we are saying the same thing; lemme try to rephrase if i understand you correctly...Ugbo used to be part of/or the general name for Obawinrin's land but Obatala supporters moved futher to Igbo-Ugbo(modern Mokuro area) where they were led by Obamakin who later stepped down for Obatala? [/b]Is that it? Cus that is my thought

As to Ilaje, the fact that Ugbo kept raiding Ile-ife long after the death of Oduduwa from their base in the forest, shows that Obamakin didn't lead them to modern Ondo state (either Ogun or Oranmiyan was Ooni at this time). [b]His status as the king before he stepped down for Obatala is probably what makes him recognized as the first Olugbo

1. Mokuro is Iranje oko, it was the extension of farm land which the family still use as extensive farm and lands for whomever wants o build a house there. Obatala moved there when Obameri frustrated him out of his palace at Iranje Ile. He was here when Obawinrin [Maybe Obamakin] sent for him to come and lead the Ugbo. Igbo Ugbo is another place entirely different from Mokuro.

2. Yes sir.

MetaPhysical:


9ja,

I believe there are many distinct disciplines in the study of Yoruba and I saw somewhere a mention in the past by someone that we need Yorubologists, specialists in the study areas.

When I think of a comprehensive structure for Yoruba study here is what I visualize.

1. The Language of Yoruba
sounds, tones, vocals, words..

2. The History of Yoruba
timelines, event markers, footprints, wars, plagues, adversities, gains, thrones, coups..

3. The Spirituality of Yoruba
cults, manuscripts, crypts, worship, altars, divination, priests, temples..

4. The Alchemy of Yoruba
herbals, minerals, salts, compounds, elements, numerals, formulas, alkalis..

5. The Arts of Yoruba
wood sculpting, ivory, stone, soapstone, bronze, terra cotta, copper, drums, music, dye, weaving..

6. The Theaters of Yoruba
egungun, gelede, efe, eyo, agemo, edi, itapa, isese..

7. The Philosophy of Yoruba
Ifa, omoluabi, ori, iwa, iteriba, isojude, idobale, ikunle..

8. The Cavalry of Yoruba
Aare, Balogun, Basorun, Eso..

9. The Government of Yoruba
Crown, Legislature, Judiciary, Enforcement..

10. The Yoruba People
Ife, Oyo, Sabe, Popo, Orangun, Ketu, Bini..

11. The Heros and Legends of Yoruba
Obatala, Oduduwa, Moremi, Sango, Ogun, Yemoja, Olokun..


What we know so far is that authors on Yoruba subject try to squeeze bits and pieces of the component areas into their books. It is work in progress and hopefully we will have our Yorubologists in not too far time from now.

You are a rare breed and appreciated. I went through many desirous questions and suggestions of yours that testified to your search in unraveling the mystery ,myths and independent study of Yoruba heroes and heroines turned to personified deities. The Truth about these things are been repealed gradually and we shall get there by the grace of Eledumare.

@Olu317

There’s a difference in opinion and context of which Ogboni is being referred to here. You may wish to visit ROF’s website to see the day it was founded.

There are different types of Ogboni depending on the town but basically we have - Ogboni Obatala, Ogboni Ooni, Osugbo, Ogboni Aborigene, Reformed Ogboni & so many variants.

@Olu317

Ogboni Obatala gave birth to all others and it did not start after Oduduwa. It started during the lifetime of Oduduwa.

‘Igba ikeji Orisa’ when used for Ooni is a reference to ‘Oduduwa, Igba ikeji Obatala’. Orisa recently became an umbrella name for all irunmole, it was originally Obatala’s name only. The Igba Ikeji Orisa stemmed from Oduduwa agreeing to share power with Obatala in Ife which revolves around him joining Ogboni Obatala to have Obatala’s Ade Are and to have Ase to rule Ife; if these are not done an Ooni cannot wear Are, step into palace or be referred as Ooni.

@Olu317


I don’t know what your sources are about Oduduwa but in Ife festivals and even during Ooni’s coronation, the fact that and how he was curtailed gets displayed. And no, he was not even that top rated in Oogun because he relied on people to do his juju for him, he was just had a more violent support base.

I don’t know who you’re referring to as Oduduwa descendant in your text but the people of Idio are members of different Ogboni. In fact, it is an unspoken and unwritten rule in Yoruba land to be an Awo Ogboni before being considered for a very traditional title. So I don’t know what you’re driving at except it operates differently in your place.

Olu317

Ooni was under Ogboni until the colonialists who didn’t understand the the system only recognised whomever appeared as the head elevated the Ooni over everyone starting with Ooni Ademiluyi Ajagun who had colonial police at his disposal to suppress dissenters.

It was further amplified when Ooni Adesoji rearranged Ife traditional system by placing palace messengers (Modewa) as high Chiefs and stepping Isoro (Priest Kings of Orisas & their clans) down who were the members of Ogboni who controlled the Ooni.

Olu317

In Ife piror to this, the Ooni’s balls were in the hands of the Ogboni. Read Leo Frobenius’ journal during his visit to Ife for insight. Read up on Oyo, Ibadan & Ijebu pre-colonial history too, to have an idea of how much Ogboni controlled the king & the state.

Kings may have some type of power since 1914 till today but they are floor menbers of Ogboni. The Kings treat Oluwo, Lisa, Apena, Iya Abiye & co as royalties. Kings do not head any Ogboni.

I am sharing this from the position of an ‘insider’.