Sheykul Islam:


@ al baqir, a question .please what is the difference between "tafsir" and "ta'wel"?

usermane: Al-Baqir, is it possible to believe in Muhammad without believing in all other messengers? I doubt it. To make distinction is to judge or rank them. And what Muslims today have done is give Muhammad more distintion than other messengers which would not have been wrong if there were verses to back that up.

Micheal H. Hart 's book was just a personal research, wasn't of divine origin,hence prone to errors. Secondly the book was not about the greatest messenger but about greatest men. The best student in the class is not same as best student in Mathematics.

Again in your own hadith book, Muhammad asked that nobody should say he(muhammad) is better than Jonah ibn matta.
Sahih Bukhari,Book of Prophet 4.625
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book of tafsir of the Prophet 6.128.

So many times, the Qur'an ask us, believers including Muhammad to look up to Abraham but even with that you people maintain that Muhammad was the greatest and yet you can't quote a single verse to justify your claim.

usermane:
04.
ISLAM IS FREE AND GUARDED FROM CORRUPTION

Another grave misconception. Although GOD promised to preserve the Final Testament, GOD did not promise to protect or preserve Islam. Let us further probe this.
Every Tom,Dick and Harry is aware of the numerous sects of muslims, with varying beliefs and all claiming to be Islam. Which one of these sects did the prophet preach? Do i just join anyone or join the bandwagon or just assume the sect of my parents or community is the truth. Well, well, the existence of sects in Islam today prove beyond doubt that Islam is not as corruption free as Muslims may believe.
Qur'an(6:159) Verily, those who break into sects, you(messenger) have no concern with them. Their affair is only with GOD,who then will tell them what they did.
Qur'an 30:22, 23:53.



None of these sects members will agree they are a sect. But their teachings and practices, will expose them. When a prophet come with new scripture, the believers are united. As soon as the messenger dies, some of the believer subscribe to other teachings or books that contradict the scripture,the only book of GOD, instantly creating a sect. Thus, they betray the prophet and his message.

usermane:

For the last time, understanding arabic is a catalyst to fasten the understanding of Qur'an but it is NOT a prerequisite for understanding theQur'an.
Hmmh... So much for insisting Qur'an must be read in arabic.

Dewze:



why do u guys so wickedly and so ignorantly twist a persons wordsjust to score cheap points. The OP never said that there is anything wrong in studying the Quran in Arabic. He has mentioned it over and over again that doing so is an added advantage but that it shoud not be used as a dogmatic Islamic doctrine. He said it is not a dogged requirement for righteousness and here u are saying another thing. Man! u guys r so wicked and misleading.

There are lot of arabs and even non arabs, some of who understand arabic better than the mallams here. But even with that the clerics and scholars still discourage them from trying to read the Qur'an using their GOD given intellects. You have learnt arabic, great! But how come you still can't read Qur'an for the meaning. Most of them are talked into further learning the countless volumes of hadith books as another prerequisite before they can think of reading Qur'an for the meaning. And with the countless volumes of hadiths and then the commentaries, this is hard work. I doubt if even Imam Bukhari could have touched Imam muslim or Abudawood 's compilation and vice versa. Are you the one going to learn through all of them?

usermane: Al-Baqir, is it possible to believe in Muhammad without believing in all other messengers? I doubt it. To make distinction is to judge or rank them. And what Muslims today have done is give Muhammad more distintion than other messengers which would not have been wrong if there were verses to back that up.

Micheal H. Hart 's book was just a personal research, wasn't of divine origin,hence prone to errors. Secondly the book was not about the greatest messenger but about greatest men. The best student in the class is not same as best student in Mathematics.

Again in your own hadith book, Muhammad asked that nobody should say he(muhammad) is better than Jonah ibn matta.
Sahih Bukhari,Book of Prophet 4.625
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book of tafsir of the Prophet 6.128.

So many times, the Qur'an ask us, believers including Muhammad to look up to Abraham but even with that you people maintain that Muhammad was the greatest and yet you can't quote a single verse to justify your claim.

1n2n3:
what the heck is wrong with this usermane?

1n2n3:
are u a muslim?

1n2n3:
are u a muslim? if u are, you really need work on ur deen by seeking knowledge from d right source i.e Quran and sunnah, and ask from those who really knows.

1n2n3:
May Allah guide you.

Logicboy03: It is rare that I praise a muslim but....good work from the op! I like the op and the discussion that has come from it

golpen:



Why are you so disgusting and unreasonable?...if all your posts are about scoring points, then you should look for an exam or quiz hall, I guess. Do you have reading comprehension deficiency syndrome?
I made a post earlier about reciting and memorising Qur'an in arabic, he didn't react to my post and this is what he said in one of his later posts



And this post above is what I'm responding to so you better get your head together and look before leaping okay kid!

usermane:

Everyone knows that a knowlege of arabic, should be a bonus in understanding Qur'an but it is not a prerequisite. We see even muslims who understand arabic that adopt doctrines contrary to Qur'an, we see them misunderstand the context or message of verses. Abubakar Shekau,boko haram leader is an example, very fluent in arabic. You are a christian, why did Jesus criticise the pharisees so often so often for abusing the Torah? Don't the pharisees understand hebrew?

If you want to learn arabic, good luck, but don't keep drumming it on those who can't. I can read the Qur'an in arabic though

Dewze:

i will simply let others read your post to which I replied. They can make their judgement with their own conscience (biased or unbiased). For you, I leave you and your conscience for God to judge, grand pa.

Sheykul Islam:


what is dis one saying? The Op have succeded in telling u "what he thinks" about the Qur'an and islam not what is the Qur'an and islam. Dats the point tbaba and vexdacool are trying to tell u.

Logicboy03:
You dont know? When Tbaba posts something- they all run saying "jazakallah" like sheep.

beejaay:
and how do u decide who is a certified scholar and who is not who award certificate of certification and who confer excellence on individuals for competence (cos am sure God doesnt annoint anyone)

usisky: [size=13pt]
@Al-Baqir

Peace Sir.

My objective here is to buttress further on what usermane has posted and the many many remarks he had made along
the way in which you have tried to counter.

I believe you have made many erroneous deductions in trying to prove usermane wrong. Therefore, i will love for us to expound
further on some of them. The best way to have a reasonable discussion, i think, is to go a step at a time. In that regard, i will
like us to discuss first, something you just alluded to some few posts earlier, and i which find repugnant:

"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man".

Qurestions:

a- what is the wisdom behind God appointing an illiterate man to convey such a momentous message to the world,
if indeed, He wants us to take the message seriously?

b-what is the word used to describe Muhammad as being an illiterate man, an evidence from the quran will do?

let's start from there before moving on to other issues.
[/size]

Dewze:

just like you have succeeded in telling us what you think about him (usermane). Should I say the difference btwn the both of you is that he(usermane) has done his with scriptures and verses 'directly' from the Quran. Not from any sunah or hadith which offcourse can be argued or disputed, depending on which side/sect of Islam you belong to. He has intentionaly and sensibly picked this verses from the book that is at least universally accepted by all muslims to be true and perfect. You should aswell bring out 'Quranic' verses that speak contrary to what the OP stated.

Al-baqir has admiriably tried to dispute some of the OPs statements. One of the problems I ve with his points is that they are mostly based on this same disputable sunnahs and hadiths. Example is trying to explain the superiority of Mohammed over other prophets by an obviously hyped interpretaion of the quran by another fellow believer. I don't see anywhere in those verses where it is mentioned Mohammed is directly or even indirectly greater that other prophets (all I see in those verses are exaltations and not positional status/rank). Al-baqir mentioned that Mohammed was refered to as a lamp(light). Just wondering if he has read that Christ Jesus was also called the light of the world.

BetaThings:

Who does that in Unilag or in Christianity?
There is a reason for the revelation of the verses. Some people spend years learning them
While some just download the translation of the Qur'an and start commenting
A Christian recently said "we have the English soft copy of the Qur'an, so you Muslims cannot hise anything again" Same person went further to state that "you are reading a wrong meaning into the Bible"
So can we Muslims not also download the Bible and start commenting?

usermane:

Thanks Dewze. Ask them why they claim Muhammad is the greatest messenger, they 'll come with verses like Qur'an 33:21,68:4 and the verses Al baqir cited that gives no clue of Muhammad being the greatest Messenger. This is what past communities did, they always believed that their Messenger was the greatest and idolised him against his will. But are all messengers not good example to mankind? Are all messengers not of exalted character? Aren't all messengers to be elevated to a honourable rank? is it only Muhammad?
Try these verses please, the whole of this, "Muhammad is infallible,the greatest" lack a minute evidence in the book of God. Qur'an 46:9, 21:72-73, 20:40-41, 4:125, 17:55, 7:144, 60:4-6.
Qur'an 33:37, 66:1,40:55

If Muhammad was infallible then he is no more a man or mortal like us, as Qur'an says(Qur'an 18:110). A mortal like us is fallible.

Al-Baqir:


Only salat do we restricted as a muslim to do in the 'Arabic mother' language. Du'a (supplication), khutba, tafsir etc; are allowed in any language best understood and expressed by individual. But bro. ARABIC is rich.

Al-Baqir:


I disagree with you here brother.
I have read and digested all your view-point. Kindly take your time and read mine with people's accusation esp @thaba1234 and my responses; then we can continue on that:www.nairaland.com/1480939/concept-infallibility-isma

www.nairaland.com/1488847/muhammad-saws-error-free-prophet

If you don't believe in the all times infallibility of the prophet (saws) then how much trust do you have for authenticity of the Qur'an?
Were you there when Jubril descended and revealed the message to him?
How do you know which words of his is actually 'revelation' or his personal sage saying except what he himself tells you?
Is there God's signature and stamp on each sura revealed?

Al-Baqir:



"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man"

Was that my wording? I strongly doubt it. I will appreciate you the more if you can go through my replies to Username's theories.

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies). One of the uniqueness about Qur'an is how it was IMPRINTED and collected into memory. "

1. Honestly I deliberately used the word 'cannot read or write' rather than "illiterate" in the context of this contemporary world. At least you will agree with me that inability to read or write does not necessarily mean one is foolish or unintelligent.

2. On the other hand, I used 'cannot read or write' to set username up for another argument hoping he will take the bait and BINGO he did.

So far (if you read and digest our conversations well) I have been battling him to prove that English translation of the holy Qur'an does not do justice to the Arabic wording of the Qur'an; thereby, studying Arabic, understanding Arabic, recitation in Arabic is the BEST (I cited an example from sura Nisa vs 1). Remember he's a type that tend to discourage Arabic.

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

'Gentile' though non-jewish, also mean someone who is not a reader of Torah.

Ref: Edward Lanes Lexicon explain this in detail (vol. 1)

Examples in the Qur'an:

1. "And there are among them 'ummi(yuna)' , who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but guess" ~Q2:78

2. In sura Jum'a vs 2:

"It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina' a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they
had been in manifest error"

If one translate the word "ummi" to mean "illiterate", it will distort the meaning of the two verses above. One will presume Allah sent the holy prophet (saws) to illiterates. But going through example 1. "Who know not the book" which actually give the meaning of "Ummi"signify people who know not the previous law (of moses).

This is a broad explanation which I cannot quickly brush through but I hope you get the gist.

Al-Baqir:



"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man"

Was that my wording? I strongly doubt it. I will appreciate you the more if you can go through my replies to Username's theories.

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies). One of the uniqueness about Qur'an is how it was IMPRINTED and collected into memory. "

1. Honestly I deliberately used the word 'cannot read or write' rather than "illiterate" in the context of this contemporary world. At least you will agree with me that inability to read or write does not necessarily mean one is foolish or unintelligent.

2. On the other hand, I used 'cannot read or write' to set username up for another argument hoping he will take the bait and BINGO he did.

So far (if you read and digest our conversations well) I have been battling him to prove that English translation of the holy Qur'an does not do justice to the Arabic wording of the Qur'an; thereby, studying Arabic, understanding Arabic, recitation in Arabic is the BEST (I cited an example from sura Nisa vs 1). Remember he's a type that tend to discourage Arabic.

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

'Gentile' though non-jewish, also mean someone who is not a reader of Torah.

Ref: Edward Lanes Lexicon explain this in detail (vol. 1)

Examples in the Qur'an:

1. "And there are among them 'ummi(yuna)' , who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but guess" ~Q2:78

2. In sura Jum'a vs 2:

"It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina' a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they
had been in manifest error"

If one translate the word "ummi" to mean "illiterate", it will distort the meaning of the two verses above. One will presume Allah sent the holy prophet (saws) to illiterates. But going through example 1. "Who know not the book" which actually give the meaning of "Ummi"signify people who know not the previous law (of moses).

This is a broad explanation which I cannot quickly brush through but I hope you get the gist.

Al-Baqir:


Kindly read and digest links sent to you before we embark fully on this. However, the arabic word use in those two verses is "bashar" meaning "mortal"; and not "man who err" as you think.
Had it been Muhammad is not somebody who eats, drink, sleeps, work, die (definition of "Bashar", these tribe of his, the Arabs would have presented an "excuse" that "its difficult to follow him since he's immortal". Hence the essence of the verse "say: I am a man like you..."

Remember, even before he declare himself as a prophet sent to them, he was known with no fault. In fact his people nicknamed him "as-Sadiq wadul Amin" among other nicknames. He was perfect in his status before being appointed as a prophet. "Revelation" i.e being prophet was icing on his cake.
Besides aren't you believe every man is born "sinless" and "pure"? Islam doesn't believe in "original sin".
And the fact that man has been given "aql (intellect)" and "ikhtiyar - free-will", you can use both to commit or not to commit. Its a matter of choice not force. And in the case of prophet of God (saws), in additional to these naturally in-built two gift (free-will and intellect), he was able to recognize his Lord...and His creation both in its spiritual dimension whereby "manifest evidence - ilm yaqeen" has been given to him making him far away from sin, mistakes or error as far as this relative world and its spiritual dimension is concern.
It will be foolish comparing God who is absolute and above imagination with holy prophet's infallibility.