BetaThings:

Shias claim Prophets and their Imams never err
But that thread supplied evidenceS to the contrary from the Qur'an that Prophets erred and sought forgiveness



Really?
Shia too stone adulterers - where is it in the Qur'an?
And the Shia central concept of imamate is not in the Qur'an.
Please don't bring those circumstantial evidences (verses).
When it suits you, you guys claim everything should be in the Qur'an

Akiika:
Salam Al-Baqir, i have read your comments and enthused by your seemingly depth of Shiite theology, but i recommend you thread softly in making pronouncements. As regards Ashoora, you have made some valid arguement concerning the date chronology which i intend to research. I am neither a Shi'a nor a Sunni, but i am a muslim (as in, what the holy prophet taught us). I'll like to comment on the following you wrote ""O ahl al-bayt of the prophet! Your LOVE has been made obligatory in the holy Qur'an...it is enough among your many exalted virtues that if anybody prays without sending blessing on you, his prayer is void" ~Imam Shafi'i (R) " You have condemned some Hadiths, what makes this authentic? In what context was the quranic verse that the commentary follow revealed? The holy prophet made it clear that blood cannot move you forward where your deeds had moved you backward. Let Allah be the judge, you can't be sure your theological belief is the right one. I personally take exception in the part of Shiites belief that Aisha, Umar, Abbas and other non-progenies of the holy prophets are not given credence. While i support healthy discussion on differing opinion on theological beliefs, it should be civil and we should not attempt to discredit opinions of others especially when we were not there when these historical events occurred. I think we should be concerned about the very fundamental undeniable articles of our faith and the very basic sane rules of humanity. W'Allahu a'alam.

Akiika:
Salam Al-Baqir, i have read your comments and enthused by your seemingly depth of Shiite theology, but i recommend you thread softly in making pronouncements. As regards Ashoora, you have made some valid arguement concerning the date chronology which i intend to research. I am neither a Shi'a nor a Sunni, but i am a muslim (as in, what the holy prophet taught us). I'll like to comment on the following you wrote ""O ahl al-bayt of the prophet! Your LOVE has been made obligatory in the holy Qur'an...it is enough among your many exalted virtues that if anybody prays without sending blessing on you, his prayer is void" ~Imam Shafi'i (R) " You have condemned some Hadiths, what makes this authentic? In what context was the quranic verse that the commentary follow revealed? The holy prophet made it clear that blood cannot move you forward where your deeds had moved you backward. Let Allah be the judge, you can't be sure your theological belief is the right one. I personally take exception in the part of Shiites belief that Aisha, Umar, Abbas and other non-progenies of the holy prophets are not given credence. While i support healthy discussion on differing opinion on theological beliefs, it should be civil and we should not attempt to discredit opinions of others especially when we were not there when these historical events occurred. I think we should be concerned about the very fundamental undeniable articles of our faith and the very basic sane rules of humanity. W'Allahu a'alam.

LagosShia:

you don't deserve to be answered or helped.you should help yourself because your ignorance stems out of nonsense.research and reach a certain level that can merit answers from us and to engage you in discussion.

Al-Baqir:


Wa alaykum salam brother,
Thanks for your recommendation but honestly I didn't grab what you meant by "..softly in making pronouncement". Kindly elaborate.

As regard Ashura: pls do research as you intended may Allah be your guide.

You said you are neither Sunni nor Shia! How can it be bro? Did you met the prophet (saws) to know how he actually practice his sunnah? You and I are only followers of written books of hadith and sunnah written by either a sunni, a shia or any other sect. So our practices (convince or not) is in line with either of them. Vis-a-vis by practice, you are either sunni or shia or others. You can only be 'just a muslim' by mouth never by practice or certain sets of belief: Even belief about God, prophet, Qur'an etc!

LOVING THE AHL AL-BAYT!
"..."Say (O prophet): No reward do I ask of you for this (service) except kindness to my kindred" ~ash-shura vs 23.

Please kindly check any books of Tafsir you can laid your hands on with respect to that verse. They all concur 'loving the ahl al-bayt is an obligatory task for all muslim.

1. Imam shafi'i's comments was in regard to that noble verse. I employ you to read Ibn Hajar's text Al-sawaiq al-Muhriqa. If you wish, I can quote his comments too on that.

2. Part of salat's validity is to perform "Tashahud with Salawat on the holy prophet (saws)" and All the books of hadith claimed the holy prophet said no salawat is accepted till you include his ahl al-bayt (household) in it. In respect to Q. 33 vs 56!

B. Condemnation of certain hadith!
Many scholars of hadith have criteria to grade hadith as true, sound, weak or fabricated. As a shi'a, Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s), the 6th Imam of ahl al-bayt of the holy prophet (saws) said: "whatever agrees with the book of God in the prophetic narration, be it known is from my father (saws); take it. Whatever does not agrees with Qur'an is not from my father...".
This is how Shi'a scholars treat hadith before applying any other criteria. So you can judge Imam Shafi'i's comment with that.

BLOOD vs VIRTUE
Generally, I agreed with you blood-line can't do nothing where moral virtue is lacking. The case of the sons of prophet Nuh and Yaqub are there for us to learn from. Their sons were condemned despite their father's being prophet. On the other hands, blood-line works : al-Baqarah vs 124; and there are 'chosen ones even uptill their offspring':
Al-Imran vs 33 -34.
The holy prophet (saws) and his ahl al-bayt (a.s) were among these two groups (blood-line + chosen ones).
Ahl al-bayt (a.s), had it been you research into their life history, you would have known they exceed ALL in piety and virtue hence Qur'an praised and chose them ABOVE all others (e.g sura al-Imran vs 61: www.nairaland.com/1497911/islam-suprimacy-over-christianity). Then history testify to their unequal services in Islam.
Take a look at Ali (a.s). He preceded all sahaba in anything you can EVER think of. These are not claims brother. Qur'an, hadith and Islamic history are there for us to analyse. But 'scholars' deliberately sweep them under the carpet and make them ordinary like others companions. If Allah could say He has exalt some prophet above others, why not sahaba? Ali was trained and tutored by Muhammad himself. Qur'an refer to him ALONE as "Anfus (self)" of the prophet. And prophet described him as "gate" or "door" to his city of knowledge in which NOBODY could enter except through the gate.
NB: Am all yours brother on this area if you wish. www.nairaland.com/1513491/ahl-al-bayt-a.s

C. ON SAHABA
Shi'a stand on general sahaba is that: Not all of them were righteous. Qur'an exposed many Munafiq among them to the point that Allah said only Him know them (sura Tawbah vs 101). And truly there were many righteous steadfast role-model personalities among them. Sunni however believe all of them were righteous.

Let me give you a peep:
Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree". Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:
"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:
"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

Sahaba are so important to us that even scholars of hadith grade many hadith weak or fabricated as a result of the personality of a particular sahaba. If Allah can ask the prophet (and his companions initially) to learn from the story of this and that (of the good and bad people of the past), why won't we scrutinize those who are 'closer' to us in time? Ours is never to judge but to learn from their good and bad. Emotionally some shia do curse certain sahaba but this is never the way of our Imam(a.s). When Imam Aliconquered Aisha, one of his disciples suggested she should be taken captive. Imam said: "woe on to you, will you take your mother captive?"
Shia best book of Du'a is "Mafatih al-Jinan" (you can search and download it here:www.getjar.com). See if you will ever find curse of sahabas there! Only those who killed Hussain and ahl al-bayt of their prophet were cursed!

ON AISHA!
Do you really want my view? Its the Qur'an! Please read surah Tahrim chapter 66 revealed solely because of her and Hafsa, another wife of the prophet (saws).

Being prophet's wife!
"O consort of the prophet! You are not like any other woman PROVIDED YOU HAVE TAQWA..." ~sura al-Ahzab.

Being prophet's wife does not guarantee an automatic salvation. You gatta work for the status before you merit anything and if you bleeped up, your punishment is doubled (Qur'an says). Look at the case of Noah and Lut's wives refer in the very sura Tahrim as an example to the subjects being addressed in the sura (Aisha +Hafsa). I enjoyed you to read. Then her role in the battle of Jamal against the 'righteous khalipha' of her time, Ali; after the death of her husband (saws) worsen her case despite Allah ordering all the wives of the prophet to stay in door.

ON UMAR!
Honestly the GREATEST problem I have on his personality is the "Event of thursday" or "hadith of pen and paper" where he accused the prophet of being "Yahjur" (delirious)" just 3 days before the death of the prophet. Bukhari, Muslim, and many sunni classical work reported all these in detail.( Wikipedia is another resource on this). Despite the fact that sura al-Hujurat has already been revealed to warn him and AbuBakar: "O you who believe...do not raise your voices above that of the prophet lest Allah make your deeds in vain..." (Bukhari vol 6. P 46 on the interpretation of sura al-Hujurat).

ABBAS AND ABDULLAH IBN ABBAS
All these personalities were "shi'a (supporter)" of Ali in all respect. Ibn Abbas followed Imam Ali (a.s) in all ramification immediately after the demise of the prophet (saws). He fought along Ali against Aisha (and others) in the battle of Jamal. Pls read about Ibn Abbas. Even Aisha's elder brother sided and fought along Imam Ali against her sister.

ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALS - ARTICLES OF FAITH!
Brother by Allah you don't wanna be part of differences of understandings of all these too except you are truly ready for the truth.

I appreciate your approach and mature mind.

Thanks sir
Salam.

kaybyte: Al baqir, you are just misquotin verses. The verse ash-shura vs 23 did not say ' no reward do i ask of you except kindness to my kndred' but it says '' no reward do i ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you''. Now you can see how you people misquot the verses of the qur'an just to suit your practice.

kaybyte: Al baqir, you are just misquotin verses. The verse ash-shura vs 23 did not say ' no reward do i ask of you except kindness to my kndred' but it says '' no reward do i ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you''. Now you can see how you people misquot the verses of the qur'an just to suit your practice.

kaybyte: Al baqir, you are just misquotin verses. The verse ash-shura vs 23 did not say ' no reward do i ask of you except kindness to my kndred' but it says '' no reward do i ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you''. Now you can see how you people misquot the verses of the qur'an just to suit your practice.

Al-Baqir:


Salam,
To your points:
Point1. I don't need to comment on personal theories.

2. Al-hamdulillah for once you agree Abdullah Ibn Abbas (R) was not credible to report the hadith because of his age. Then why lying against him (r)? and this has suggested you concur the "arrival" was the 1st year of Hijrah otherwise you wouldn't have submit on Ibn Abbas just like that. Telling me its for the sake of argument do not hold.

Other reporters:
Abu Musa al-Ashari came from the tribe of Ashar in Yemen. He converted to Islam before Hijra and since that day till khaybar (7th year Hijrah), he was no where to be found. The prophet sent him back to Yemen to spread Islam and he was never with the holy prophet in the 1st year of Hijra.

Abu hurayra converted to Islam 3years before the demise of the holy prophet(saws) in Sham (Syria) and was only seen in Madina after khaybar which occured in 7th year hijra. If one werent at the event then how can one narrate what happened?

Muawiyyah converted to Islam in the 8th year of hijra which was 7th yr after the mentioning of the hadith relating to Ashura.
Besides can one label Mu'awiya a reliable source? Somebody whom the holy prophet (saws) said: "“At the time of his death, Mu’awiyah shall not be counted as member of my Muslim Ummah.” (Al- Tabari, Muhammad ibn Jarir. Ta'rikh Al-Rusul Wa'l-
Muluk(Vol. 8, Pg. 186; Imam Nasai was killed in Sham because of a single hadith he narrated on Mu'awiyah where Rasul cursed him))

NB: Please how can you say ALL the sahaba of the prophet (saws) are righteous?

ON SAHABA!
Shi'a stand on general sahaba is that: Not ALL of them were righteous. Qur'an exposed some of Munafiq among them to the point that some were unknown to the prophet; Allah said only Him know them (sura Tawbah vs 101).
Qur'an, hadith and History even reveal those who apostatized among them after the death of the prophet.
And truly there were many righteous steadfast role-model personalities among them.

Let me give you a peep:

Ala b. Al-Musayyab narrated from his father, who said: "I met al-Bara'a ibn Azib and said to him: "You are fortunate, you were a companion of the prophet and paid allegiance to him under the tree". Whereupon he said: "'My nephew, you do not know what we INNOVATED after him" (al-Bukhari vol. 5 p. 66)

Allah knew many of them will violate their oath; hence he warned:
"Those who paid allegiance to you in fact pay allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands. And WHOEVER VIOLATES that oath has done so against his own(self)~Q48:10"

Also prophet fore-told:
"On the day of resurrection you will be grabbed from the left, and I will say: 'where are they (being taken) to?' It will be said: "To Hell, by God. ' I will say: "my Lord! These are my companions'. It will be said: 'You do not know what they did after you. From the time you left them they never ceased to apostatize. ' I will say: 'Away with him, away with him, woe to him who changed things after me. And I do not see anyone of them being saved except that he will be like a forlorn sheep".
(Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 7 p. 209, vol 4 p. 94, 156; Muslim vol. 7 p. 66).

To your last theories:

Brother, ain't gonna take those theories dogmatically. Prove with concrete evidence inkuntum sadiqin.

Salam.

babylolaroy:
its true dear brother. The prophet the following year when he intended to observe the fast..That means he gave it approval buh was not opportuned to ever fast it

Allahu alam

xclusive43:
Please do not mistake Ashura for Tasu'a
The prophet was not opportuned to fast tasu'a but he did fast Ashura

Al-Baqir:


You are only confusing yourself brother. Prophet (saws) died in the 10th year of Hijrah. If he couldn't fasted Tasu'a (9th of the first month of Arab calendar)the following year (11th year of hijrah), that also mean the incident of meeting the Jew happened in the 10th year. Funny!

The hadith where he met the Jew and asked them what they were fasting for...and they in turn told him the essence of that Ashura fasting: is the centre in which all other hadith on Ashura revolve.
Aisha and other narrators:
On the other hand, Aisha was 6years old (according to Bukhari) in the 2nd year of Hijrah when she got married to the prophet (saws). In fact her own case was described by one of the maid that she was just a small innocent girl who plays with dull and sleeps while playing while goat eat her food. What does that suggested for asserting Aisha to report narration on Ashura?
I beg you to go back and read about Abu Hurayra, Abu Musa al-Ash'ari et al.

The very hadith altogether is full of contradictory statements.

No matter how hard and long we drag this, I will stand on that unique point that if Ashura is so important and real, JEW will never be the one the holy prophet (saws) will get info from for what Ashura stand for.

Other hadith which prove one blessing or two given to different prophet on the day of Ashura from Adam to E'esa...what was the blessing received by the greatest and last prophet, Muhammad on that day?

Till next year Ashura. May Allah spare our lives.

Salam.

Dmeji4444:
Salam Aleikum,,,firstly, the last time i checked ,our beloved prophet(SAW) did not tell us to b sunni muslims or shia muslim,,and Allah (SWT) never mentioned any divition among d muslims,,

Dmeji4444:

so I am just a MUSLIM.

Dmeji4444:

Secondly,if i may ask, what brought up the division?

Dmeji4444:

Thirdly,i read a coment in this thread trying to nullify the hadeeth of the Mustapha(SAW), was d person trying 2say we should not believe in Hadeeth or what?

Dmeji4444:

Fourtly, did Allah prescribe the posture to follow in the quran?,what i wanna say is that there are many things we do as muslims which r not detailed in the quran but was explain by the hadeeth because what i believe is that its the hadeeth that give d full context of the quran.

Dmeji4444:

Lastly,the issue of Ashura ,u fast if u wanna fast and if u don't wanna fast ,left 2u,or r u trying 2say prophet Eisa (SAW) ws not prophet? "