"Why is there suffering? That proves there is no 'loving' God."

Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse!

Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood. The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death.

Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince rational minds that something is radically wrong.

Did God blow it when He created humanity? What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan?

Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God.

But how can we know that the Bible is true?--simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering...and what we can do about it.

The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was Heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it.

Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness." In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (see 1 Corinthians 2:9). Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervour of weeds. Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more.

The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering.

The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"" (Romans 5:12) The Evidence Bible.

^^

Totally unsatisfactory.

Why does the loving God offer promises now? How do those promises solve the present issue of suffering? Are people who suffer from total disillusion with life, to abandon this life entirely and look forward to the afterlife? Since God has no present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life, shouldn't we all abandon this life too?

Of what use is the suffering to us? Does it empower us? Does it make us stronger? Was that the purpose God gave to suffering?

Why are we in a Fallen Creation? Who is responsible for the Fallen Creation? Why do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Is there any justice?

^^^ why do you keep asking the same questions?

Do you want to know the solution God has given in this present world?

Come to him on his own terms. Own up to him and acknowledge who you really are before him.
Then ask him to answer your questions. And guide you into truth

Come, ma'am. Come and see.

Joshthefirst: ^^^ why do you keep asking the same questions?

Do you want to know the solution God has given in this present world?

Come to him on his own terms. Own up to him and acknowledge who you really are before him.
Then ask him to answer your questions. And guide you into truth

Come, ma'am. Come and see.

Yeah same old recycled garbage of questions. It takes the Holy Spirit to convict her bro.. Just keep answering the questions she poses and also pray for her.

^ Questions none of you answered.

Neither did Oladegbu address them in his OP.

Joshthefirst: ^^^ why do you keep asking the same questions?

Do you want to know the solution God has given in this present world?

Come to him on his own terms. Own up to him and acknowledge who you really are before him.
Then ask him to answer your questions. And guide you into truth

Come, ma'am. Come and see.

Would that end the suffering?

Kay 17: ^ Questions none of you answered.

Neither did Oladegbu address them in his OP.



Would that end the suffering?

it would give hope and promise.
It would give salvation from the source of suffering and hope of complete remedy from the terrible effects of suffering itself

Joshthefirst: it would give hope and promise.
It would give salvation from the source of suffering and hope of complete remedy from the terrible effects of suffering itself

Yet hope and promise do not proffer any meaning to life, as they are not actuators rather prospective.

Note that in my previous posts in other threads, I have said the punishment for sins of Adam and other people are undeservedly visited on innocent people, so I ask now, who is responsible for such unjust arrangement?

EG in the case of Job, Sin was never a satisfactory answer.

Kay17, you seems to think that suffering is an evil in and of itself. I don't share the thought, probably the reason why i can believe in a loving God who allows suffering.

Wait o! Na confam say Kay 17 na woman?! I don die!

Ihedinobi: Wait o! Na confam say Kay 17 na woman?! I don die!

you no know say na woman she be?!

Joshthefirst: you no know say na woman she be?!

kay17 no bi Kayode? It must never be a woman ohhh. Ihedinobiiii,good to read you.

Image123:

kay17 no bi Kayode? It must never be a woman ohhh. Ihedinobiiii,good to read you.

No, na Kathy

Image123:

kay17 no bi Kayode? It must never be a woman ohhh. Ihedinobiiii,good to read you.

Bidam: No, na Kathy

Image123:

kay17 no bi Kayode? It must never be a woman ohhh. Ihedinobiiii,good to read you.

Bros, long time o! How you de?

Kay 17: ^^

Totally unsatisfactory.

Why does the loving God offer promises now?

What do you mean by "now". Now as in compared to when?

How do those promises solve the present issue of suffering?

God's promises give hope, and hope helps you alleviate suffering. And sometimes, this actually works.

Are people who suffer from total disillusion with life, to abandon this life entirely and look forward to the afterlife?

No, there is never a reason to give up.

Since God has no present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life, shouldn't we all abandon this life too?

Do you know of any person, body, organisation or idea that has a present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life? There is no need to abandon life, we can actually have joy and peace in this life too.

Of what use is the suffering to us? Does it empower us? Does it make us stronger? Was that the purpose God gave to suffering?

No, suffering is not for good, but can be converted for good. It's like fire, fire can burn and destroy. It can also cook and purify and refine. God can cause all things, including suffering to work for our good. Suffering is a curse, it comes from the famous man's fall.

Why are we in a Fallen Creation?

Because we are children of the fallen creation? It's like a horse child asking why he is a horse and not a rabbit or something. Adam's creation is fallen, and damned/doomed. But God has decided to still get the best out of the situation instead of a total failure. At the end, this fallen creation would produce an innumerable multitude that will live with God eternally.

Who is responsible for the Fallen Creation?

All of us.

Why do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Is there any justice?

The chief question should rather be do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Of course, the answer is YES. A careless driver can render you paralysed for life, a careless kid can burn down your house. A neighbour can spread a disease through water, air etc. A carefree man would likely ruin the chances of his to be family and descendants. Is there justice. There are people at a disadvantage that still manage to turn their disadvantages and come out fine. We all have that much power inside us to do the needful as it were. The human mind is so powerful, so also is our faith and our bodies. You can imagine the level of latent excellence in each one of us even as fallen as we are. While we do not usually decide our past, there is usually opportunity to decide our future, and perhaps our eternity.

Kay 17:

^^

Totally unsatisfactory.

Why does the loving God offer promises now? How do those promises solve the present issue of suffering? Are people who suffer from total disillusion with life, to abandon this life entirely and look forward to the afterlife? Since God has no present solution to the present issue of suffering in this life, shouldn't we all abandon this life too?

Of what use is the suffering to us? Does it empower us? Does it make us stronger? Was that the purpose God gave to suffering?

Why are we in a Fallen Creation? Who is responsible for the Fallen Creation? Why do the rest of us suffer for the consequences of another person's actions? Is there any justice?

There's no point cursing the darkness when you can light a candle.

@image123

I used "now" to mean our present lives excluding reincarnated lives or afterlife.

From your post, it is understood that primarily Suffering is a curse from God with little uses such as refinement etc. Hecne suffering is a punishment for contravening deeds done.

For those whose suffering eclipse their joys and happiness, do you recommend the same medicine for them as people whose sufferings are far less than theirs? Can joy and happiness have any significant bearing in their lives when they are incapacitated to the extent they are unable to feel joy?!

Yet the hopes and promises are fuilfilable in another life, not here; suggesting that our real lives are somewhere beyond this present lives without the curse (heaven). Therefore this life cannot offer REal happiness, right?

How are/were you responsible for the Fallen Creation when it occurred prior o your birth?

Kay 17: @image123

I used "now" to mean our present lives excluding reincarnated lives or afterlife.

From your post, it is understood that primarily Suffering is a curse from God with little uses such as refinement etc. Hecne suffering is a punishment for contravening deeds done.

For those whose suffering eclipse their joys and happiness, do you recommend the same medicine for them as people whose sufferings are far less than theirs? Can joy and happiness have any significant bearing in their lives when they are incapacitated to the extent they are unable to feel joy?!

Yet the hopes and promises are fuilfilable in another life, not here; suggesting that our real lives are somewhere beyond this present lives without the curse (heaven). Therefore this life cannot offer REal happiness, right?

How are/were you responsible for the Fallen Creation when it occurred prior o your birth?

God offers promises of a remedy, showing and telling that all is not lost, giving hope for now and for the future.
Suffering is a curse from God caused BY man. Suffering does not always come from God BTW but is permitted by God. Like i've said, God can use the suffering situation positively. Suffering is a consequence, not just a punishment. Like failure is a consequence of not planning or of unseriousness.
We can all have joy and peace in this life. There is never a reason to give up for anyone.
Our real lives are beyond this present, yet we can have real happiness here too. It only continues FOREVER in the afterlife.
We are jointly responsible for the fallen creation as we were in Adam when it occured, and we all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

Image123:

God offers promises of a remedy, showing and telling that all is not lost, giving hope for now and for the future.
Suffering is a curse from God caused BY man. Suffering does not always come from God BTW but is permitted by God. Like i've said, God can use the suffering situation positively. Suffering is a consequence, not just a punishment. Like failure is a consequence of not planning or of unseriousness.
We can all have joy and peace in this life. There is never a reason to give up for anyone.
Our real lives are beyond this present, yet we can have real happiness here too. It only continues FOREVER in the afterlife.
We are jointly responsible for the fallen creation as we were in Adam when it occured, and we all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

The natural question arising is, why deal and struggle in an unreal world, when the real world of true values await. Yet there are people without this joy and peace you talk about.

Who is responsible for suffering in the world?

So your idea is that we formed some kind of consent while in Adam, therefore we deserve to endure the evils?! Can it be intelligeibly said that you were involved in all your father/ancestor's decisions prior to the time you were born? Is that practicable at all?!

Kay 17:

The natural question arising is, why deal and struggle in an unreal world, when the real world of true values await. Yet there are people without this joy and peace you talk about.

Its not an unreal world. Anyways, the world we live in is for examination. It is overcomers, people that are successful tfrom this world that will be in the coming world. i know there are people without the joy and peace, but they can have the joy and peace.

Who is responsible for suffering in the world?

So your idea is that we formed some kind of consent while in Adam, therefore we deserve to endure the evils?! Can it be intelligeibly said that you were involved in all your father/ancestor's decisions prior to the time you were born? Is that practicable at all?!

We all are responsible. Its not just to pass the buck. Not only Adam is responsible. There are many avoidable sufferings that we bring on ourselves today, some through wrong decisions, some bad government and poor/insensitive governance etc. We all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

Image123:
Its not an unreal world. Anyways, the world we live in is for examination. It is overcomers, people that are successful tfrom this world that will be in the coming world. i know there are people without the joy and peace, but they can have the joy and peace.

But God didn't plan that this world wld be one to be overcame, right?

We all are responsible. Its not just to pass the buck. Not only Adam is responsible. There are many avoidable sufferings that we bring on ourselves today, some through wrong decisions, some bad government and poor/insensitive governance etc. We all replicate that we would not have done better, each time we reject God and choose independence from God.

Yet can you claim you were involved in your parents' decisions prior to your birth?

Kay 17:

But God didn't plan that this world wld be one to be overcame, right?




Yet can you claim you were involved in your parents' decisions prior to your birth?

He planned it so.

i said we are all responsible, jointly responsible. We are products. Products cannot deny their source, like outputt cannot distance itself from input.

^^
I'm not denying we are a source, rather is it reasonable to claim you are not just responsible for decisions your parents made, but involved and actively consented to such decisions?

What were the hurdles and hardships Adam and Eve were supposed to overcome?

Kay 17: ^^
I'm not denying we are a source, rather is it reasonable to claim you are not just responsible for decisions your parents made, but involved and actively consented to such decisions?

What were the hurdles and hardships Adam and Eve were supposed to overcome?

It appears you've misunderstood me at some point. i did not say that we are actively consenting and involved in making decisions with our ancestors. i said we are jointly responsible. i gave two reasons, one we cannot deny or separate from our source, and two, we also make poor decisions too today.

Thought one hurdle should be glaring, the devil.

Image123:

It appears you've misunderstood me at some point. i did not say that we are actively consenting and involved in making decisions with our ancestors. i said we are jointly responsible. i gave two reasons, one we cannot deny or separate from our source, and two, we also make poor decisions too today.

Thought one hurdle should be glaring, the devil.

Responsibility is a consequence of freewill, whoever takes a decision is bound to the outcome and responsibility thereof. So also in the circumstance, if we descendants made no decisions affecting Adam and his fruits, how can any sense be made that we are responsible for his actions?!

Assuming we are all descendants of adam, would we all have made the exact fatal decision Adam made in spite of our freewill?

So you mean to say: God deliberately placed the Devil as a hurdle to tempt Adam and Eve?

Kay 17:

Responsibility is a consequence of freewill, whoever takes a decision is bound to the outcome and responsibility thereof. So also in the circumstance, if we descendants made no decisions affecting Adam and his fruits, how can any sense be made that we are responsible for his actions?!

Assuming we are all descendants of adam, would we all have made the exact fatal decision Adam made in spite of our freewill?

So you mean to say: God deliberately placed the Devil as a hurdle to tempt Adam and Eve?

That is reality, a product is a result of, related to. We see and face it all the time. People are responsible for other's actions and inactions. Malnutrition by a pregnant mother, and the product child might be responsible for his own deformities, blindness, lameness etc. Your laziness and sloth as a father, and your children will have o share in the punishment no doubt. They'll suffer hunger, poor health, bad schols, tarnished drems and visions etc and may even have a destroyed future. Yet the descendant made no decsion. It's same thing with gene pools, cross breeding, genotypes and blood groups, graftings etc.
We make the same fatal decisions many times over antime we choose to be independent of God or do not believe God. These was what Adam did basically.
Yep, God deliberately placed satan as an hurdle or test to be overcome. He did the same for Jesus Christ, i'm sure you know the story.

Someone Said: "Suffering proves there’s no God."

Suffering has nothing to do with the existence of God. We know that He exists because of creation, and we know that He requires moral accountability because of the existence of the human conscience. It is scientifically impossible for Nature to create itself. However, the truth of the Bible is substantiated by the suffering we see all around us. We are told in Genesis that we have suffering, disease, pain and death because we live in a "fallen" creation.

Watch --->> www.EvolutionVsGod.com <<---

Image123:

That is reality, a product is a result of, related to. We see and face it all the time. People are responsible for other's actions and inactions. Malnutrition by a pregnant mother, and the product child might be responsible for his own deformities, blindness, lameness etc. Your laziness and sloth as a father, and your children will have o share in the punishment no doubt. They'll suffer hunger, poor health, bad schols, tarnished drems and visions etc and may even have a destroyed future. Yet the descendant made no decsion. It's same thing with gene pools, cross breeding, genotypes and blood groups, graftings etc.
We make the same fatal decisions many times over antime we choose to be independent of God or do not believe God. These was what Adam did basically.
Yep, God deliberately placed satan as an hurdle or test to be overcome. He did the same for Jesus Christ, i'm sure you know the story.

I'm sorry about my late replies.

We can agree that we are not responsible for Adam's actions neither did we influence his actions, yet we do suffer the consequences from his actions by the mere fact we are his descendants. In the same way a deformed baby suffers from his mother's negligence and drunkness, same way we suffer from our government's bad decisions, and sufferings from the actions of others.

And we yet have an idea of justice and fairness.

If God deliberately temps Adam, he did that with a foresight of Adam's reaction. Meaning God did approve the Fall of Creation.

Kay 17:

I'm sorry about my late replies.

We can agree that we are not responsible for Adam's actions neither did we influence his actions, yet we do suffer the consequences from his actions by the mere fact we are his descendants. In the same way a deformed baby suffers from his mother's negligence and drunkness, same way we suffer from our government's bad decisions, and sufferings from the actions of others.

And we yet have an idea of justice and fairness.

If God deliberately temps Adam, he did that with a foresight of Adam's reaction. Meaning God did approve the Fall of Creation.

Good, no problem, it's not instant messaging na.
God did not tempt Adam, He tested Adam. Satan tempted Eve. Just to set the records straight.
Now, having foresight is not necessarily equate to approval. An intelligent investor might have accurate foresight of future economy, doesn't mean he approves it. A metereologist might have foresight of weather conditions, without necessarily approving it.

Image123:
Good, no problem, it's not instant messaging na.
God did not tempt Adam, He tested Adam. Satan tempted Eve. Just to set the records straight.
Now, having foresight is not necessarily equate to approval. An intelligent investor might have accurate foresight of future economy, doesn't mean he approves it. A metereologist might have foresight of weather conditions, without necessarily approving it.

As to foresight true.

Test and temptation are the same.

Kay 17:

As to foresight true.

Test and temptation are the same.

Good for you, good.

OLAADEGBU:

"Why is there suffering? That proves there is no 'loving' God."

Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse!

Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood. The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death.

Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince rational minds that something is radically wrong.

Did God blow it when He created humanity? What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan?

Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God.

But how can we know that the Bible is true?--simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering...and what we can do about it.

The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was Heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it.

Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwells righteousness." In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (see 1 Corinthians 2:9). Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervour of weeds. Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more.

The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering.

The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"" (Romans 5:12) The Evidence Bible.

Bumped.