Hopefully a better way, or at least the same way the Christian tackled their Terrorist Crusaders, Polgromists, etc in Europe, and other places

Um I really didn't want to comment on this, but this caught my eye and I will just like to let you know that the Crusades were not terrorists. The only reason the crusades started was because the muslims invaded Christian lands, killed the men, raped the women, and forced them to convert "choose islam or choose death"

The Christians were standing up for themselves and claiming back their homes. It was in no means a "let's go kill the infidels"

Don't for one minute equate the crusades to the terrorism of Islam.


Now with that being said. I really think some of you just want to turn a blind eye to your history and your present and you future. Because you see, terrorism has always existed in Islam. Go check your history. If it all began in recent times, I would understand, but the fact that it has been going on since the inception and introduction of Islam to the world? It is hard to believe so.

And to the young lady who said that terrorism is just for political purpose? You may not have realised it but Islam is also religious and political. There is no separation of religion and politics in Islam. Not as there is a separation of Church and State.
So I guess Islam is terrorism, and no it is not out of ignorance that I speak. If you seriously believe that your religion is about peace, then you are very ignorant of your religion.

@lady

Um I really didn't want to comment on this, but this caught my eye and I will just like to let you know that the Crusades were not terrorists. The only reason the crusades started was because the muslims invaded Christian lands, killed the men, raped the women, and forced them to convert "choose islam or choose death"

Where are did you get your story, had jerusalem not conquered before muslims took over. Muslims took over jerusalem and everybody were living in peace, both christians and jews were accorded right to practice thier religion. until christian came with thier terror, killed both jews and muslims as well as pagans. All subsequent crusades were much all persecution against muslims and Jews.

The Christians were standing up for themselves and claiming back their homes. It was in no means a "let's go kill the infidels"

So, that was the begining of thier terrorism?

Don't for one minute equate the crusades to the terrorism of Islam.

Then explain clearly what happen during the crusades and of what terror has muslims commited. Saudi Arabia is one of the most peacefull country in the world, of what terror have they commited against any nation. Can't you ever think of separating state from religion and see who is more terrorist. I dont know why peoples are narrowminded because of what they hear from the media. Can't yourelf think of Niger delta issues where we have much christians, if niger delta is position in the north, can you think of media captions.

Now with that being said. I really think some of you just want to turn a blind eye to your history and your present and you future. Because you see, terrorism has always existed in Islam. Go check your history. If it all began in recent times, I would understand, but the fact that it has been going on since the inception and introduction of Islam to the world? It is hard to believe so.

Now tell me if the early wars muslims fought you equate to terrorist acts.

And to the young lady who said that terrorism is just for political purpose? You may not have realised it but Islam is also religious and political. There is no separation of religion and politics in Islam. Not as there is a separation of Church and State.

Yes I agree if religious is politics with christian being the first player follows by others. However, you stereotype to name individual commiting crime after thier religion; abi!

So I guess Islam is terrorism, and no it is not out of ignorance that I speak. If you seriously believe that your religion is about peace, then you are very ignorant of your religion.

You speak not out of ignorance now exposes the ignorant in you, coz you are confident and likewise arrogant.

littleb:

@lady

Where are did you get your story, had jerusalem not conquered before muslims took over.

Dont be such a cute little hypocrite, call it what it is . . . muslims INVADED and FORCEFULLY, ILLEGALLY occupied Jerusalem. How can they "take over" what was not theirs?

littleb:

Muslims took over jerusalem and everybody were living in peace, both christians and jews were accorded right to practice their religion.

lol these muslims forever leave you speechless with their penchant for ridiculous lies.

littleb:

until christian came with their terror, killed both jews and muslims as well as pagans. All subsequent crusades were much all persecution against muslims and Jews.
So, that was the begining of their terrorism?

Theh crusades were to drive muslims OUT of jerusalem. Any history textbook shld dispel your tasteless lies.

littleb:

Then explain clearly what happen during the crusades and of what terror has muslims commited. Saudi Arabia is one of the most peacefull country in the world, of what terror have they commited against any nation.

the same nation exporting violent wahhabism and funding extremism in other nations? Your hypocrisy just gets worse.

~Lady~:

Um I really didn't want to comment on this, but this caught my eye and I will just like to let you know that the Crusades were not terrorists. The only reason the crusades started was because the muslims invaded Christian lands, killed the men, raped the women, and forced them to convert "choose islam or choose death"

The Christians were standing up for themselves and claiming back their homes. It was in no means a "let's go kill the infidels"

Don't for one minute equate the crusades to the terrorism of Islam.


Now with that being said. I really think some of you just want to turn a blind eye to your history and your present and you future. Because you see, terrorism has always existed in Islam. Go check your history. If it all began in recent times, I would understand, but the fact that it has been going on since the inception and introduction of Islam to the world? It is hard to believe so.

And to the young lady who said that terrorism is just for political purpose? You may not have realised it but Islam is also religious and political. There is no separation of religion and politics in Islam. Not as there is a separation of Church and State.
So I guess Islam is terrorism, and no it is not out of ignorance that I speak. If you seriously believe that your religion is about peace, then you are very ignorant of your religion.

------------------------------------------

From Babs787

Question
If Islam is a religion of love & peace, why do Muslims seek to kill all those who disagree with them?


Answer
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother, thanks a lot for your good question. We commend your efforts in pursuit of knowledge.

First of all, it should be clear that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it, irrespective of the people’s religion, race, sect, etc,  The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (Al-An`am: 151) “Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (Al-Isra’: 33)

According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah: 32) [/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][/color][color=#990000][color=#990000][/color]Muslims do not hate – let alone kill - non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.

When we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.

With that statement, we don’t intend to sound apologetic, for Islamic concept of peace is very clear. It does not mean weakness, slavishness or surrendering to aggression and injustice. The Islamic concept of peace aims at securing security and harmony for the whole world, without any discrimination as to religion, race or color. Thus, Islam, right from its inception, waged a total war against injustice and oppression. It has made it clear that people should not be deprived of having access to the light of guidance. But throughout its history you can never find any trace of infringing upon people’s right to self expression, even at times that such right was misused. The cogent example to be mentioned here is the way the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, received the two envoys sent by Musailamah Al-Kazzab (the Liar). His fine remarks always ring in mind whenever the issue of diplomatic immunity comes to fore. He, peace and blessings be upon him, told the envoys when they addressed him in a very provocative way: “If not that the envoys should not be killed, I’d have ordered for you to be beheaded”, thus laying down the rule that was later codified as one of the principles of the modern international law.

The point here is, it’s not of the Islamic teachings to kill people just because they happen to be non-Muslims or happen to disagree with Muslims on some points. What attests to this is the fact that the first war in the Islamic history would have never occurred if not that the enemies of Islam could not be satisfied with expelling Muslims from their home (Makkah), rather they planned to carry the aggression to Madinah in order to exterminate Muslims once and for all. So the question that should have been asked is: why do opponents are always on the trail of Muslims?

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states[/b]:

[b]“Islam is indeed a religion of love and peace. Islam does not teach people to kill all those who disagree with them simply because they disagree with them. If certain bigoted Muslims did so that is not the fault of Islam. How unjust would it be to say that Christianity is a religion that teaches violence and blood shed by looking at the historical performance of some so-called Christians: After all, Hitler who committed genocide against the Jews, the white supremacists in South America who practiced barbarities against the blacks, the Serbs who committed genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia, those who systematically practiced mass slaughter of Muslims and Jews in Spain, and burned heretics, etc. all claimed to be Christians. What about the Christians still killing each other in Ireland? So why use double standards in judging Islam? Stereotyping is wrong regardless of against whom we use it.

Vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with such violence or bloodshed that may or may not have been committed by those who claim to be Muslims. According to the strict verdict of the Qur’an, taking life of a single human being unjustly is akin to taking the life of all humanity. A good Muslim, therefore, is one who believes in sanctity of all life. The Prophet, peace be upon him, taught us that if a person were to kill even a single little sparrow, it would appear before the Lord of the worlds seeking God’s justice against the person!” (Source: www.islam.ca)

Samba . . . all that is theory . . . what is more important is the number of dead after 9-11, 7-7, Madrid . . . those who paid with their lives for the mohammad cartoons, Darfur, Lebanon, AFghanistan, suicide bombers in Iraq . . .

THOSE are the facts that 5000 words of hypocritical nonsense CANNOT erase. Tell that "islam is peace" nonsense to the blind and the deaf.

@Davidylan: When I think of your response and that of ~lady~, there is quite a similarity. Both of you are naive and ignorantly narrowminded. Your style of argument is like a person who slept through an incidence. But after he woke up became the expert, over those who were participants and eye witnesses. You are more like Saul, who became Paul over the so called brothers of Jesus or any of the other 12 disciples. You wanna learn about the History of islam, go to the Arabs, or Muslims, but definitely not the Western Christians, etc.

Who will the house flies side with in a quarrel, except the man with the open wound, which they feed from. Thats a statement of fact.

« #66 on: Today at 02:44:54 PM »  
Dont be such a cute little hypocrite, call it what it is . . . muslims INVADED and FORCEFULLY, ILLEGALLY occupied Jerusalem. How can they "take over" what was not theirs?

I ask you the same thing about the Jews; how can they take over what does not belong to them? Did you watch CNN's Jewish God Warriors, hosted by Christiana Amanpour, last evening? The Jews are claiming Abraham as their father, hence Palestine is theirs. Let me ask you, was Abraham an ethnic or religious Jew?


You you and the Jews forgot that he was an Iraqi or that Judaism was not a religion in his lifetime? The brain for academics is actually not the same for common knowledge. If it were, the Jews would have awoken to their wrong assumptions.

And of course the Christian Zionists are eagerly awaiting a doomday afternoon (similar to the movie Dog Day afternoon of Al Pacino), for the Jews when the christian's human god arrives. Now who is the terrorists and terrorists in waiting?

lol these muslims forever leave you speechless with their penchant for ridiculous lies.

And the Christians are forever trying to tell more ridiculous lies! You always give us what the mindset of a christian is, with your ignorant lies. Is there no truth telling in your essence? Come on, David! Learn about the world, first, before you provide any response.

Theh crusades were to drive muslims OUT of jerusalem. Any history textbook shld dispel your tasteless lies.

And the crusaders did a very poor job. Alas, there are more Muslims in Jerusalem, today than the Christians. But wait don't the christians find it ironic that the Jews are persecuting the Palestinian Christians, just as much as the muslims? What are you going to do about a new crusade to help just the Palestinian Christians? I am sure you will ignore this tinnie winnie question, when next you produce what you think is a response. Everyone should take a note what david will do.

the same nation exporting violent wahhabism and funding extremism in other nations? Your hypocrisy just gets worse.

Until after september 11, 2001, I have never heard of Wahhabists, wahhabism, etc. It it exist, it was more of a religious group. Just because they are not intending to mix with the west or accept everything they do, could not be automatically be taken as wanting to ruin the western people?


Or could it, from your own thinking? I do not eat pork for example. But that does not mean that I will personally destroy every pig I see. I do not want to be a Christian or want to go to Church. But I have no hatred toward neither Christians because they are Christians, nor the Churches because they are the places of their worships.

Your hypocrisy will not let you see that the Christians and Jews, as the major examples have not practiced live and let live with the Muslims. The Christians have always intended to christianized the muslims. If you are not aware of it, have the gut to watch Youtube's Christian Missionary Atrocities. The Jews have turned God to an ethnic belonging rather than what God truly is, The Creator of all, without any exception, who deserves the worship of everyone of us.

Then check out Islamic perception of God-human relationship; the human attain closeness, to God only by their Worship of Him, alone and doing good deeds for His pleasures. We call this God consciousness in obedience and piety. (Iman and Taqwa!).

Samba . . . all that is theory . . . what is more important is the number of dead after 9-11, 7-7, Madrid . . . those who paid with their lives for the mohammad cartoons, Darfur, Lebanon, AFghanistan, suicide bombers in Iraq . . .

THOSE are the facts that 5000 words of hypocritical nonsense CANNOT erase. Tell that "islam is peace" nonsense to the blind and the deaf.

Your thinking is even worse than the Jewish "undergroud" Zionist groups who said teeth for a tooth, many many more lives for a single live. Now tell me, how does your heart settle after the many hundreds of thousands of muslims killed both in Afghanistan and Iraq as a response to 911 by thec collision forces? Now what did Iraq do, in the case of 911? Have you been sleep walking through the new millienum? If your christian bosses were to do justice, they should have invaded Makka!

Then we will see which side God will be on. Thats how to do it. And all the rest is empty rhetorics. Hey dave, Russia just invaded Georgia. Unfortunately, you can't blame it on Islam. You will not see any evil in lives lost, except where muslims are involved as the "villians."

@poster

I am not Mu$lim but I find it very offensive when I read what you wrote. I see you as a lazy thinker, ignorant if you will

Does anyone realize that most muslims are peaceful people? it is just the extremists that cause problems (which can and does happen with every religion. Shall I mention the Phelps family and the Westboro Baptist Church to prove my point)

may The LORD bless you and keep you;
the LORD make his face shine upon you
and be gracious to you;
the LORD turn his face toward you
and give you peace.

@Lady

Um I really didn't want to comment on this, but this caught my eye and I will just like to let you know that the Crusades were not terrorists. T[b]he only reason the crusades started was because the muslims invaded Christian lands, killed the men, raped the women, and forced them to convert "choose islam or choose death[/b]"

Did you read the above or you were told? You are beginning that to show that you lacked knowledge when it comes to your false post up. You may still back your post with proof

Where are did you get your story, had jerusalem not conquered before muslims took over. Muslims took over jerusalem and everybody were living in peace, both christians and jews were accorded right to practice their religion. until christian came with their terror, killed both jews and muslims as well as pagans. All subsequent crusades were much all persecution against muslims and Jews.

I'm sorry but your history is a whole lotta wrong.
Go and do your research and then come and tell me who invaded and conquered first. Islam was nothing to Christians, Islam did not exist in Jerusalem, incase you don't know your history but Christians and Jews and lived in Jerusalem until the Muslims decided to claim the "holy land" remember Muhammad didn't receive revelations until well into the 5th century, so when did the muslims start inhabiting Jerusalem before the Jews and Christians?

So, that was the begining of their terrorism?

No terrorism in Christianity thank you. That is the reason why we are not viewed as terrorists. Because guess what we don't go around bombing people in the name of a god.

Then explain clearly what happen during the crusades and of what terror has muslims commited. Saudi Arabia is one of the most peacefull country in the world, of what terror have they commited against any nation. Can't you ever think of separating state from religion and see who is more terrorist. I don't know why peoples are narrowminded  because of what they hear from the media. Can't yourelf think of Niger delta issues where we have much christians, if niger delta is position in the north, can you think of media captions.

1) There's always a separation of Church and State but in Islam there isn't one. Infact the Islamic law is the law in muslim lands with a few exceptions, but you know very well that in ISlam secularism is not welcome.
2) You are so uneducated when it comes to the terror that Islam has started since its inception, so I will take it upon myself to educate you. Make sure you pay attention to the dates.

Byzantine-Arab wars 634-750
Conquest of Persia 633-651
Conquest of Transoxiana: 662-709
Conquest of Sindh: 664-712
Conquest of Hispania: 711-718
Conquest of the Caucasus: 711-750
End of the Umayyad conquests: 718-750
Conquest of Nubia: 700-1606
Incursions into Southern Italy: 831-902
Conquest of Anatolia: 1060-1360
First crusade 1095-1099

Notice that all those muslim invasions happened before the crusades started. So dear it is not I but you who are very ignorant of history. You think I am lying, go and look it up yourself. Find out the first muslim invasion and then find out the first crusade, then come back and tell me who invaded who first.

Saudi Arabia is peaceful because muslims live there. I bet you the Christians don't find it peaceful. Peace in Islam is only to muslims not to the Christians and Jews or non muslims. It is a hard truth, but it is the truth.
Don't forget Saudi Arabia did not start existing today, but before Muhammad, and after Muhammad ARABIA launched a war against the infidels.
I guess there's peace when the ubeleivers subdue and pay the jizyah. But what freedom is that. They also cannot practice their belief or pray.

Muslims on the other hand are permitted to pray and have mosques and live freely in non muslim nations, but non muslims are not permitted to do so, even in lands that once belonged to them, and first belonged to them, not the muslims.

You may not be paying attention to the media, but they are not in support of the Niger Deltans, they condemn them and because of them discourage people from going to Nigeria limiting our investors. They view the Niger eltans as barbaric. SO open your eyes my dear.

I don't condone any kind of war, but I cannot stand people who don't know their history. Go and learn. Thanks.

Now tell me if the early wars muslims fought you equate to terrorist acts.

Yes they invaded people's lands and claimed it as their own. They raped women and put children into slavery, killed the men, and then told them to "choose Islam or choose death". That is not a choice. That is not freedom, that is not peace.

Yes I agree if religious is politics with christian being the first player follows by others. However, you stereotype to name individual commiting crime after their religion; abi!

Um no Christians are not the first, if  Christians are the first, abortion would be banned, gay mariage would be banned, but we know that they are not. There is a separation in Church and State, go and read the constitution of the USA, Britain, France , and other Western Countries. Not all western countries are Christian. Infact none of them are. None of them are governed by the Bible, they are goverened by the people.
Get educated.

You speak not out of ignorance now exposes the ignorant in you, because you are confident and likewise arrogant

yes see very confident, why? because I know the history of the crusades and the invasion of muslims before the retaliation of christians.
Am I condoning the crusades, no, I don't like war, especially the one in Iraq, I cannot stand Bush, he invaded for no reason, I am still waiting on the weapons of mass destruction.

ARROGANT? NAH, I JUST HAPPEN TO KNOW THE TRUTH. And guess what? i can back it up with historical facts.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother, thanks a lot for your good question. We commend your efforts in pursuit of knowledge.

First of all, it should be clear that Islam maintains the protection of life and does not sanction any violation against it, irrespective of the people’s religion, race, sect, etc, The Qur’an says about the prohibition of murder, “…Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” (Al-An`am: 151) “Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)” (Al-Isra’: 33)

According to the Qur’an, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Ma’idah: 32) Muslims do not hate – let alone kill - non-Muslims, be they Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist or followers of any religion or no religion. Our religion does not allow killing any innocent person regardless of his or her religion. The life of all human beings is sacrosanct according to the teachings of the Qur’an and the guidance of our blessed Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and upon all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.

When we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we don’t need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind.

With that statement, we don’t intend to sound apologetic, for Islamic concept of peace is very clear. It does not mean weakness, slavishness or surrendering to aggression and injustice. The Islamic concept of peace aims at securing security and harmony for the whole world, without any discrimination as to religion, race or color. Thus, Islam, right from its inception, waged a total war against injustice and oppression. It has made it clear that people should not be deprived of having access to the light of guidance. But throughout its history you can never find any trace of infringing upon people’s right to self expression, even at times that such right was misused. The cogent example to be mentioned here is the way the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, received the two envoys sent by Musailamah Al-Kazzab (the Liar). His fine remarks always ring in mind whenever the issue of diplomatic immunity comes to fore. He, peace and blessings be upon him, told the envoys when they addressed him in a very provocative way: “If not that the envoys should not be killed, I’d have ordered for you to be beheaded”, thus laying down the rule that was later codified as one of the principles of the modern international law.

The point here is, it’s not of the Islamic teachings to kill people just because they happen to be non-Muslims or happen to disagree with Muslims on some points. What attests to this is the fact that the first war in the Islamic history would have never occurred if not that the enemies of Islam could not be satisfied with expelling Muslims from their home (Makkah), rather they planned to carry the aggression to Madinah in order to exterminate Muslims once and for all. So the question that should have been asked is: why do opponents are always on the trail of Muslims?

Focusing more on your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states[/b]:

“Islam is indeed a religion of love and peace. Islam does not teach people to kill all those who disagree with them simply because they disagree with them. If certain bigoted Muslims did so that is not the fault of Islam. How unjust would it be to say that Christianity is a religion that teaches violence and blood shed by looking at the historical performance of some so-called Christians: After all, Hitler who committed genocide against the Jews, the white supremacists in South America who practiced barbarities against the blacks, the Serbs who committed genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia, those who systematically practiced mass slaughter of Muslims and Jews in Spain, and burned heretics, etc. all claimed to be Christians. What about the Christians still killing each other in Ireland? So why use double standards in judging Islam? Stereotyping is wrong regardless of against whom we use it.

[b]Vast majority of Muslims have nothing to do with such violence or bloodshed that may or may not have been committed by those who claim to be Muslims. According to the strict verdict of the Qur’an, taking life of a single human being unjustly is akin to taking the life of all humanity. A good Muslim, therefore, is one who believes in sanctity of all life. The Prophet, peace be upon him, taught us that if a person were to kill even a single little sparrow, it would appear before the Lord of the worlds seeking God’s justice against the person!” (Source: www.islam.ca)

You all are so quick to try to blind the rest of us. Sacred life is only muslim life. Peace is only for muslims. No one is judging Islam, we're just asking you to acknowledge the truth of your religion. I cannot understand for the life of me, why muslims keep quoting verses that have been abrogated by Allah. See at one point Allah accepted all people Jews and Christians included, until the Jews and Christians dismissed Muhammad and his religion and refused to follow him so he received these revelations.

Sura 9:5 Slay the unbelievers whereever you find them.
Sura 2:256 Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme
Sura 8:39 Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and Allah's religion shall reign supreme

There are plenty more. I USED to accept the peaceful suras when I heard them, until I read of the hateful suras, and then I asked why does the Quran contradict itself, and was told that those allah can chage his mind and I was shown the abrogation theory, then I realised that under the abrogation theory those suras that were revealed later abrogated the former. The peacefl ones are the former and the hateful one are the latter. Allah abrogated the peaceful ones.
I didn't want to believe it, all this while I have been defending muslims, saying only the radicals are twisting the quran to teir benefit and that the quran didn't even state those, until I read tem myself and learnt more about the religion itself.

I realise that the muslims who are ignorant of their religion are the ones that tell me it is peaceful. But here's the difficult part, how can I differentiate the ones who are ignorant about their religion and those who are just plain lying to me to try to woo me over (well except for olabowale, he has been caught lying too many times by me). So now I don't feel safe around my muslim friends anymore. I'm afraid that if tomorrow is judgment day and I were shopping with one of them, I might be the Christian given to him/her to kill so that they can get into heaven.

Did you read the above or you were told? You are beginning that to show that you lacked knowledge when it comes to your false post up. You may still back your post with proof

I have backed it up above. Any history book will back it up. Stop being lazy go and read on your history. I don't have to post anything, I will just wait for you to rebut my post.
Show me where the Christians attacked the Muslims first.

@lady,

~Lady~:

I'm sorry but your history is a whole lotta wrong.
Go and do your research and then come and tell me who invaded and conquered first. Islam was nothing to Christians, Islam did not exist in Jerusalem, incase you don't know your history but Christians and Jews and lived in Jerusalem until the Muslims decided to claim the "holy land" remember Muhammad didn't receive revelations until well into the 5th century, so when did the muslims start inhabiting Jerusalem before the Jews and Christians?

No terrorism in Christianity thank you. That is the reason why we are not viewed as terrorists. Because guess what we don't go around bombing people in the name of a god.

1) There's always a separation of Church and State but in Islam there isn't one. Infact the Islamic law is the law in muslim lands with a few exceptions, but you know very well that in ISlam secularism is not welcome.
2) You are so uneducated when it comes to the terror that Islam has started since its inception, so I will take it upon myself to educate you. Make sure you pay attention to the dates.

Byzantine-Arab wars 634-750
Conquest of Persia 633-651
Conquest of Transoxiana: 662-709
Conquest of Sindh: 664-712
Conquest of Hispania: 711-718
Conquest of the Caucasus: 711-750
End of the Umayyad conquests: 718-750
Conquest of Nubia: 700-1606
Incursions into Southern Italy: 831-902
Conquest of Anatolia: 1060-1360
First crusade 1095-1099

Notice that all those muslim invasions happened before the crusades started. So dear it is not I but you who are very ignorant of history. You think I am lying, go and look it up yourself. Find out the first muslim invasion and then find out the first crusade, then come back and tell me who invaded who first.

Saudi Arabia is peaceful because muslims live there. I bet you the Christians don't find it peaceful. Peace in Islam is only to muslims not to the Christians and Jews or non muslims. It is a hard truth, but it is the truth.
Don't forget Saudi Arabia did not start existing today, but before Muhammad, and after Muhammad ARABIA launched a war against the infidels.
I guess there's peace when the ubeleivers subdue and pay the jizyah. But what freedom is that. They also cannot practice their belief or pray.

Muslims on the other hand are permitted to pray and have mosques and live freely in non muslim nations, but non muslims are not permitted to do so, even in lands that once belonged to them, and first belonged to them, not the muslims.

You may not be paying attention to the media, but they are not in support of the Niger Deltans, they condemn them and because of them discourage people from going to Nigeria limiting our investors. They view the Niger eltans as barbaric. SO open your eyes my dear.

I don't condone any kind of war, but I cannot stand people who don't know their history. Go and learn. Thanks.

Yes they invaded people's lands and claimed it as their own. They raped women and put children into slavery, killed the men, and then told them to "choose Islam or choose death". That is not a choice. That is not freedom, that is not peace.

Um no Christians are not the first, if  Christians are the first, abortion would be banned, gay mariage would be banned, but we know that they are not. There is a separation in Church and State, go and read the constitution of the USA, Britain, France , and other Western Countries. Not all western countries are Christian. Infact none of them are. None of them are governed by the Bible, they are goverened by the people.
Get educated.

yes see very confident, why? because I know the history of the crusades and the invasion of muslims before the retaliation of christians.
Am I condoning the crusades, no, I don't like war, especially the one in Iraq, I cannot stand Bush, he invaded for no reason, I am still waiting on the weapons of mass destruction.

ARROGANT? NAH, I JUST HAPPEN TO KNOW THE TRUTH. And guess what? i can back it up with historical facts.

It is very unfortunate to have people like you here discussing historical events. No matter how dwell, the ignormouses will always fall shot and still lay claim to their inner mindset. If you don't know, let me open your eyes. HOLY WARS are permited in Islam and it has modality, this is even supported by Quran verses. The principle which is always conditional and its should be followed accrodingly which inturn leads to their success. Thus, the secret of succession for muslims allover being the fact it was divine wars against the "unbelievers". I believe you will agree with me that there has not being any prophet that came and that was ever accepted. They wage war against them, to kill them as well as their followers. Some asked God to destory them due to their continuous disobidient while others were killed. Likewise when Muhammad(pbuh) came, this man was preaching oneness of God to them like other prophets, as people act, they wage war to kill him and his followers. The early holy wars fought by muslims was to defend themselves against oppressors and idolators which has legal permission accordingly. I believe most of your concern are the subsequent expansion of muslims which you ignorantly lay claim as terrors; especially the conquest of Jerusalem. All the subsequent holy wars by muslims was against the unbelievers, aggressive, oppressive and tyranny leaders to free people from slavery. The jews and christians were also included: Quran refer to them as people of the book. Those of them whom we are to fight are those who are People of the Book in name only, but who in reality, have no valid belief at all, and who do not consider forbidden that which God has forbidden, even what He has forbidden in their own religion. So it is not with all the People of the Book that we are to fight, but a group from amongst them. Islamically, if God did not prevent some people by means of other people, ruin and corruption would become the rule everywhere. Thus the essence of Holy war in Islam.

The modality of wars in Islam will give you a clear picture whether it is a form terror we are talking about or not. Moreso, you will be able to compare and contrast the wars muslims fought with crusades and Jews believe on wars and and see which is more of terrorists. When Islam has legalized warfare, what kind of warfare, in terms of the particular conditions of war, does Islam see as legal, and what kind of war does it see as forbidden? For example, does Islam consider the killing of a whole people to be lawful or forbidden? Does Islam view as permissible the killing of those who have not lifted the sword: old women, children, men who are peacefully engaged in their jobs and trades? Killing of animals, destory of properties etc. Is the killing of all these in the view of Islam permissible or forbidden? @Lady, continously lay claim muslims killed and raped in war; in her mouth still wallowing ignorantly.

Thus, we cannot say that because we are the advocates of peace, we are opposed to war. Such a thing would mean that we are advocates of misery; advocates of surrender. Make no mistake, peace and surrender are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. The meaning of peace is honorable coexistence with others, but surrender is not honorable coexistence; it is coexistence that on one side is absolutely dishonorable. In fact, it is a coexistence that is absolutely dishonorable on both sides. On one side, the dishonor is aggression, and on the other side, it is the dishonor of surrender in the face of zulm, in the face of injustice and oppression.
So this fallacy must be eradicated, and a person who declares himself opposed to war, saying that war is totally bad - be it injustice or be it defense and resistance in the face of injustice - has made a great mistake. War that means aggression must be fully condemned while war that means standing up in the face of transgression is to be commended and necessary for human existence.
The Quran also indicates this matter, It says:
"And if God did not prevent mankind, some with others, the earth would be full of corruption." (2:251)


Also, the Jewish believe in holy wars is well cited in the old testament as their claim in the torah of Moses. The Jews believed they were given a divine order to kill every human being who became an obstacle in their way:
"in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you" (Deut 20:16–17). And they belief they are being supported by God.
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7:1–2). This "divine" order was followed to the letter: "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deut 2:34).

Also in christianity that most of them lay claim to being peace with no war. The idea was concieved 1000 years ago, maybe the following realization got to their head:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Mat 10:34).

However, I have not come hear to judge, but for your own reasoning, redeaming your thinking of what is holy war and terrorism. Now tell me, if the crusades was made holy they would have succeeded in acquiring jerusalem, however not, christians are still the lowest populace occupant in Jerusalem up till today. Byzatine was not initially under Islamic but zazanid administration(313-636) which was contolling jerusalem after several conquest. people in byzatine had already practicing Islam. War on byzatine was the same reason I mention earlier which muslims were successful. Islam was rulling byzatine which jerusalem was under them; thus ottoman empire. Now tell me the act of terror commited to conquer Jerusalem. Now see my relevant "took over" i used. If you want more details of this historical concept, I will tell you, never mind if your soul could comprehend it.

As for christian attacked on jerusalem in 1099, more than 60,000 inhabitants, both Jewish and Muslim, were slaughtered in cold blood. And if we reflect on the level of inter-religious dialogue in past centuries, dialogue between Jews and Muslims is easier than dialogue between Jews and Chrisitians. Indeed, dialogue between Jews and Muslims was much more extensive in the past.

The present terrorist attacked is more of politics than religion as u've been told. It was more prominent from 09-11 event. If there should be any religious war in Islam, it should be declared by commander of faith. What Islam proclaim is peace and Justice. And not mistaken, peace is not submission.

However, not all wars are religious, if people or nation is responding to aggression of other nations by all available means, does not seemingly means that its religious war. The present days phenomenon. @lady and @David, how I wish you perfect your thinking rationaly. Islam against terror in all dimensions; thus our religious nations are peaceful.

@~Lady~:

First crusade 1095-1099

Thats only to the Middle east. What you call the "holy land." Long before then, the European Christians have been making incursions, if you will, minor crusades, here and there in the Continental Europe. I remember you and i had this conversation before. I provided a material source to prove you wrong. Go back to my writing.

@~lady~:

No terrorism in Christianity thank you. That is the reason why we are not viewed as terrorists. Because guess what we don't go around bombing people in the name of a god.

I know you will claim such; but religious act maybe terror attimes if not divine.

Notice that all those muslim invasions happened before the crusades started. So dear it is not I but you who are very ignorant of history. You think I am lying, go and look it up yourself. Find out the first muslim invasion and then find out the first crusade, then come back and tell me who invaded who first.

I don't condone any kind of war, but I cannot stand people who don't know their history.

Now, the question is, is there holy war in christianity? If yes, what is its divine principle and modalities. If no, then, the acts of killing and persecutions in their crusades is nothing but terrorism. And I think crusades is also historical now. When you lay claim that muslims conquered Jerusalem, can you explain chrnologically how it was caried out; you only claim ignorantly they raped and killed which fall short of evidence.

HOLY WARS are permited in Islam and it has modality, this is even supported by Quran verses. The principle which is always conditional and its should be followed accrodingly which inturn leads to their success. Thus, the secret of succession for muslims allover being the fact it was divine wars against the "unbelievers".

That is the problem. I am so sorry that you don't see it. Would it be alright if the Christians and Jews declare a Holy War on the muslims, come in and rape your mother and your sisters, steal everything you have worked for? Because of their beliefs. To us you are the infidels. So what would make it wrong for us to come and kill you off. If so the Iraq war is  not wrong.
That is where the anger comes from against the muslims. That your god is evil, that he wishes to kill innocent people. Who made the muslims better than the everyone else.

It was not divine wars, it was hatred from a man, because he wasn't accepted.

How can you open your mouth and say that ISlam is a peaceful religion when it is filled with nothing but hatred.

But you know I will only pray for your heart, that it will become free from hatred. It only leads to evil.

I believe you will agree with me that there has not being any prophet that came and that was ever accepted. They wage war against them, to kill them as well as their followers

No one waged war against muhammad, he was ignored and that pissed him off.

Some asked God to destory them due to their continuous disobidient while others were killed. Likewise when Muhammad(pbuh) came, this man was preaching oneness of God to them like other prophets, as people act, they wage war to kill him and his followers

No one waged war against Muhammad he was ignored and that pissed him off.

The early holy wars fought by muslims was to defend themselves against oppressors and idolators which has legal permission accordingly.

No one tried to oppress Muhammad they didn't care for him, and that pissed him off.

None of the prophets of old preached of killing the infidels.

I believe most of your concern are the subsequent expansion of muslims which you ignorantly lay claim as terrors; especially the conquest of Jerusalem.

No we didn't give a rat's behind as to the beliefs of Muhammad, when Muhammad's followers killed Christians and Jews, the Christians decided to elp themselves. Have you ever heard of self defense.
It's funny, Islam says if you attack us we will defend ourselves, no one was attacking islam, islam attakced everyone and then everyone decided to defend themselves.
What did you expect us to sit and wait for you to kill us?

All the subsequent holy wars by muslims was against the unbelievers, aggressive, oppressive and tyranny leaders to free people from slavery.

No one was in slavery. Islam put everyone is slavery, remember until they consider themselves subdued

The jews and christians were also included: Quran refer to them as people of the book

Meanwhile the muslim aologetics will say that no we are not asked to kill people of the book, infact allah says that they will make it to heaven. Well tell allah to make up his mind, is it kill the people of the book or be ok with them because they will make it to heaven.

Those of them whom we are to fight are those who are People of the Book in name only, but who in reality, have no valid belief at all, and who do not consider forbidden that which God has forbidden, even what He has forbidden in their own religion

Then you should go and kill off muslims too because I know of a lo of them that do not adhere to the quran, so do you want their names and addresses? Be mindful that you are not supposed to kill a muslim.

So it is not with all the People of the Book that we are to fight, but a group from amongst them. Islamically, if God did not prevent some people by means of other people, ruin and corruption would become the rule everywhere. Thus the essence of Holy war in Islam.

There was none of this until Islam came. the people that were persecuted were the people of the book, people of the book knew muhammad was a bold faced liar, and ignored him, muhammad was an egotistic man who didn't accept it, and waged war against them.

The modality of wars in Islam will give you a clear picture whether it is a form terror we are talking about or not.

according to whom, you or me. you scream terror when we defend ourselves, yet you are the one that starts the fight. when you come into my house and try to kil me you are a murderer, when you come into my house you are a terrorists. plain and simple
There was some level of peace in the world until islam came and decided to kill everyone.

Moreso, you will be able to compare and contrast the wars muslims fought with crusades and Jews believe on wars and and see which is more of terrorists

Whomever started the fight is the terrorists. ISlam is the terrorist.

When Islam has legalized warfare, what kind of warfare, in terms of the particular conditions of war, does Islam see as legal, and what kind of war does it see as forbidden? For example, does Islam consider the killing of a whole people to be lawful or forbidden? Does Islam view as permissible the killing of those who have not lifted the sword: old women, children, men who are peacefully engaged in their jobs and trades? Killing of animals, destory of properties etc. Is the killing of all these in the view of Islam permissible or forbidden?

That is exactly what Islam did. I'm sorry that it has been removed from your history books, but go and find out from the rest of the world, that is what islam did. i am sorry that you have been lied to all your life, but seriously go and get educated first and then come and have this conversation with me.

@Lady, continously lay claim muslims killed and raped in war; in her mouth still wallowing ignorantly.

history does not lie.

Thus, we cannot say that because we are the advocates of peace, we are opposed to war. Such a thing would mean that we are advocates of misery; advocates of surrender. Make no mistake, peace and surrender are as different from each other as chalk and cheese. The meaning of peace is honorable coexistence with others, but surrender is not honorable coexistence; it is coexistence that on one side is absolutely dishonorable. In fact, it is a coexistence that is absolutely dishonorable on both sides. On one side, the dishonor is aggression, and on the other side, it is the dishonor of surrender in the face of zulm, in the face of injustice and oppression.

good so now you know that there is no honourable coexistence in islam.
it is so funny how two faced you are. you live in the west and whine all the time at how people single you out and judge you because you are muslim, yet those living in your lands know no peace.

So this fallacy must be eradicated, and a person who declares himself opposed to war, saying that war is totally bad - be it injustice or be it defense and resistance in the face of injustice - has made a great mistake

you just supported the crusades, because the crusades was only in defense of attacks from the muslim world.
no one oppressed muslims, they didn't even care for you guys.

Also, the Jewish believe in holy wars is well cited in the old testament as their claim in the torah of Moses. The Jews believed they were given a divine order to kill every human being who became an obstacle in their way:
"in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you" (Deut 20:16–17). And they belief they are being supported by God.
"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations … then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy" (Deuteronomy 7:1–2). This "divine" order was followed to the letter: "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors" (Deut 2:34).

Make no mistake, that was for a particular time and it was towards a people that oppressed the Jews, it was not an order for eternity.
Islam is an order for eternity and has never been oppressed, but has always been the oppressor. Do not mistake both.

Also in christianity that most of them lay claim to being peace with no war. The idea was concieved 1000 years ago, maybe the following realization got to their head:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Mat 10:34).

hahaha look at you trying to twist the words of Jesus. The sword is not physical, it doesn't mean take up arms and kill people. It does not call for war with people but a spiritual war against the devil, the world (secularism) as in not get caught up in the celebrities and how t please a man cosmos, and the flesh (sins) as in adultery, fornication, murder, lies, stealing. The Christians never waged war on others, they were the ones running for their lives.
A Christian's war is not a physical war, but a spiritual war.

However, I have not come hear to judge, but for your own reasoning, redeaming your thinking of what is holy war and terrorism.

I will pray for you and your evil mind.

Now tell me, if the crusades was made holy they would have succeeded in acquiring jerusalem, however not, christians are still the lowest populace occupant in Jerusalem up till today

So because the muslims called their war holy it meant victory for them. You are an idiot and a bonafide idiot at that, you have no idea how wars work. Go and get educated on world history and wars and come back to me. No apologies for my statement. Sometimes it has to be pointed out so that your eyes will open.

Byzatine was not initially under Islamic but zazanid administration(313-636) which was contolling jerusalem after several conquest. people in byzatine had already practicing Islam

You may not know this but Muhammad received his "revelations" from(570-632). That doesn't comply with your information on Islam in the Byzantine.

War on byzatine was the same reason I mention earlier which muslims were successful. Islam was rulling byzatine which jerusalem was under them; thus ottoman empire. Now tell me the act of terror commited to conquer Jerusalem. Now see my relevant "took over" i used. If you want more details of this historical concept, I will tell you, never mind if your soul could comprehend it.

Oh I comprehend it perfectly, I comprehend just how evil you are. So if the Jews and Christians today were to go on a Holy war and acquire those lands back it would be ok.

It's soo sad how one man's evil has spread sooo much and has lead to ignorance and idiocrisy.

As for christian attacked on jerusalem in 1099, more than 60,000 inhabitants, both Jewish and Muslim, were slaughtered in cold blood. And if we reflect on the level of inter-religious dialogue in past centuries, dialogue between Jews and Muslims is easier than dialogue between Jews and Chrisitians. Indeed, dialogue between Jews and Muslims was much more extensive in the past.

Blind bat go and read your history again, but this time make sure it is telling you the truth.

The present terrorist attacked is more of politics than religion as u've been told. It was more prominent from 09-11 event. If there should be any religious war in Islam, it should be declared by commander of faith. What Islam proclaim is peace and Justice. And not mistaken, peace is not submission.

Islam is both religious and political.
Islam proclaims peace and justice for muslim men, not women either.
If peace is not submission, why do you not see why Christians and Jews don't view Islam as peace, as submission is all we're asked to do.
Noone is asking you to submit. I could careless if you want to continue in your belief. I am asking you to leave me alone. And whenI say me, I mean all Christians, and when I say you, I mean all muslims. Leave us alone. If you want to inhabit your land, no one is stopping you, pray to allah all you want, just let us be.

It's funny that you come here, and say this meanwhile you muslim counterparts will quote this
Say unbelievers I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship, you have your own religion adn I have mine. Sura 109:1-6.

So where did the religion of you worship yours and I worship mine go. It does not single out a few unbelievers but all unbelievers.

Thats only to the Middle east. What you call the "holy land." Long before then, the European Christians have been making incursions, if you will, minor crusades, here and there in the Continental Europe. I remember you and i had this conversation before. I provided a material source to prove you wrong. Go back to my writing.

LOLOLOL You are not even worth my time. You should be ashamed for your age. To be so naive, is appalling.
It is one thing if history supports it, but it doesn't.

I keep asking, show me through history. But you all can't, because you know it is a lie that you have been told.

Now, the question is, is there holy war in christianity? If yes, what is its divine principle and modalities. If no, then, the acts of killing and persecutions in their crusades is nothing but terrorism. And I think crusades is also historical now. When you lay claim that muslims conquered Jerusalem, can you explain chrnologically how it was caried out; you only claim ignorantly they raped and killed which fall short of evidence

Do not for one minute try to define Christianity with the tenets of ISlam. We are nothing like you. We are not barabric as you are.
We defended ourselves, when you sought to kill us all, and you still do today.

People like you make me sick.

You know what I can't even come back to this board. It will only make me angry. Islam is evil and I found out first hand.

Wll I saw this and just had to comment

I ask you the same thing about the Jews; how can they take over what does not belong to them? Did you watch CNN's Jewish God Warriors, hosted by Christiana Amanpour, last evening? The Jews are claiming Abraham as their father, hence Palestine is theirs. Let me ask you, was Abraham an ethnic or religious Jew?

Question, is Abraham the father of Isaac? Or was there another man that is the father of Isaac? Is Isaac the father of Jacon or was it another man? Is Jacob (Isreal) the father of the Isrealites or was it another man?
If Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of the Isrealites (Jews) then wouldn't that make Abraham the father of the Jews?
Now who lacks reasoning.

You know I read the sura that said that Abraham was a muslim and tried to justified it here:

"O People of the Bok! why do you dispute about Abraham, when the Torah and the ospel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand? behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know. Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian but he was (an) upright man a muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists. Most surely the nearest of the people to Abraham are those who followed him and this Prophet Muhammad and those who belive and Allah is the guardian of the believers" Sura 3:65-68.

So the question is this. If ABraham was not a Jew because the Torah was not revealed until after he lived, and he wasn't a Christian because the Gospel was not revealed until after he lived, how then is he a muslim, if the quran was not revealed until after the Torah and the Gospel and until after Abraham lived?

Talk about illogical muslims.

If it is because he was an upright man, then he could have easily been a Jew or a Christian. On the basis that the book was not revealed until after his death, he is not a muslim either.

You you and the Jews forgot that he was an Iraqi or that Judaism was not a religion in his lifetime? The brain for academics is actually not the same for common knowledge. If it were, the Jews would have awoken to their wrong assumptions

You also forgot that ISLAM was NOT a religion in his time. Lol at Abraham being an Iraqi. Iraq never existed at that time, Where Iraq is where the Babylonians were, and still that was after Abraham's time. Abraham did not even settle anywhere close to that area. His burial place was in Macpelah facing Mamre (present day Hebron) well we know where Hebron is or do I need to educate you on that.

It would be nice if you could actually use history and geography to prove me wrong. So no need to beat around the bush calling each other names, just use history and geography to prove me wrong.

And the crusaders did a very poor job. Alas, there are more Muslims in Jerusalem, today than the Christians. But wait don't the christians find it ironic that the Jews are persecuting the Palestinian Christians, just as much as the muslims? What are you going to do about a new crusade to help just the Palestinian Christians? I am sure you will ignore this tinnie winnie question, when next you produce what you think is a response. Everyone should take a note what david will do.

Alhaji first of all go and grow up, learn to reason like an adult. Between you and David who is the father and who is the son?
Second, no one denies the crusades, even though it was in self defense I do not condone it. The Pope has apologised for it, but you see we still don't continue in killings of innocent people. You're religion however, is based on that. The killing of innocent people. The Christians did not attack anyone, and for more than 3 centuries took the beating from muslims. You come to me and tell me that you are my friend yet you have it in your mind to kill me, you expect me to accept you?
No one says that what the Jews are doing are right. I think they can very well get along without this whole religious dispute. But it's not going to be that, because for the muslims it is all about religion, as well as for the Jews, you both are as guilty as ever.
The crusaders captured Jerusalem at first until it returned to muslims.
So it worked.

Until after september 11, 2001, I have never heard of Wahhabists, wahhabism, etc. It it exist, it was more of a religious group. Just because they are not intending to mix with the west or accept everything they do, could not be automatically be taken as wanting to ruin the western people?

Wahhabists existed before 9/11 so did the taliban, and hezbollah, and al qaeda. It is one thing to say that they are just a religious group, but they are being funded by muslim nations, that makes it political.

Or could it, from your own thinking? I do not eat pork for example. But that does not mean that I will personally destroy every pig I see. I do not want to be a Christian or want to go to Church. But I have no hatred toward neither Christians because they are Christians, nor the Churches because they are the places of their worships

Then you are not a muslim. Your quran calls you to do so.

Your hypocrisy will not let you see that the Christians and Jews, as the major examples have not practiced live and let live with the Muslims. The Christians have always intended to christianized the muslims. If you are not aware of it, have the gut to watch Youtube's Christian Missionary Atrocities. The Jews have turned God to an ethnic belonging rather than what God truly is, The Creator of all, without any exception, who deserves the worship of everyone of us.

Well I can certainly agree with you on this, especially on the Jews. But take note not all Christian missions are to turn people into Christianity, especially the Catholic missions. We are to help people, if you want to convert fine, if not, fine. You will still eat, and drink, and bathe, and have aplace to live, and have a school to attend. Point is to help people.

Then check out Islamic perception of God-human relationship; the human attain closeness, to God only by their Worship of Him, alone and doing good deeds for His pleasures. We call this God consciousness in obedience and piety. (Iman and Taqwa!).

Hmm look at that, you are adopting a Christian view of things. I thought a relationship with Allah is not possible.

@~Lady~:Posted on: Today at 08:46:18 PM

Question, is Abraham the father of Isaac? Or was there another man that is the father of Isaac? Is Isaac the father of Jacon or was it another man? Is Jacob (Isreal) the father of the Isrealites or was it another man?
If Abraham was the father of Isaac, and Isaac the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of the Isrealites (Jews) then wouldn't that make Abraham the father of the Jews?
Now who lacks reasoning.

It is you who lacks reasoning, because you would have noticed that Isaac had a big brother, whose name was Ismail. Ismail was much beloved by Ibrahim, far more and could not be less than Isaac was beloved to him. Let me prove it to you. The first child of any parent is always the biggest excitement for the parents among all the children. Why, it brings that parent the first taste of parenthood. I am now talking from experience. That experience you still lack. lol. In this case you must therefore understand that the Children of israel could not have a better or greater claim to Ibrahim that the Arabs, who are the children of Ismail. Now dig that!

You know I read the sura that said that Abraham was a muslim and tried to justified it here:

"O People of the Bok! why do you dispute about Abraham, when the Torah and the ospel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand? behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know. Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian but he was (an) upright man a muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists. Most surely the nearest of the people to Abraham are those who followed him and this Prophet Muhammad and those who believe and Allah is the guardian of the believers" Sura 3:65-68.

So the question is this. If ABraham was not a Jew because the Torah was not revealed until after he lived, and he wasn't a Christian because the Gospel was not revealed until after he lived, how then is he a muslim, if the quran was not revealed until after the Torah and the Gospel and until after Abraham lived?

Talk about illogical muslims.

If it is because he was an upright man, then he could have easily been a Jew or a Christian. On the basis that the book was not revealed until after his death, he is not a muslim either.

I do not want to waste too much time on this. But watch this, muslims are also known as muminu, when their iman is very high. Muslims are also called hanifan, upright, muslims are also called ghafir, toyibin, and many others. Islam simple means the way of seeking obedience to Allah, and muslims are just those who do this. In Surah An am, you read that Ibrahim made prayer and declared that he was the first to submit, in his generation as muslim. It is not surprising since he is a prophet/messenger. In Surah Araf, you read Moses say that he is the first of the mumin. Adam said he turned to God as he seeked repentance from the Merciful, Al Rahim.

Let me turn it around for you. You are ~Lady~ to most people on Nairaland. I also know you by your full name. Your friends in scholl know you as that student who sits always, in the from row, in the middle of the class. The professor knows you also by your SS number. The friends, your bossom buddies know you as that friendly person. Then we come to your home, your aunt knows you as her niece. Your cousins as their cousin. Then your siblings know you as their big sister and yet your parent knows you as a first born child. Now all of these descriptions represent only one person, you. But in my family, you are not a daughter or niece, etc. Now put Ibrahim to that in Islam. Islam in mankind began with Adam and no t later. And ibrahim came after Adam an not before. This you could not say for Judaism or Christianity.

You also forgot that ISLAM was NOT a religion in his time. Lol at Abraham being an Iraqi. Iraq never existed at that time, Where Iraq is where the Babylonians were, and still that was after Abraham's time. Abraham did not even settle anywhere close to that area. His burial place was in Macpelah facing Mamre (present day Hebron) well we know where Hebron is or do I need to educate you on that.

It would be nice if you could actually use history and geography to prove me wrong. So no need to beat around the bush calling each other names, just use history and geography to prove me wrong.

Let me help you with geography: Ur was an ancient city in present day Iraq. Thats where ibrahim came from. Now you need only have to go back to US invasion in 2003. You will see that they spoke about , especially about the looting of antiquities.

Alhaji first of all go and grow up, learn to reason like an adult. Between you and David who is the father and who is the son?
Second, no one denies the crusades, even though it was in self defense I do not condone it. The Pope has apologised for it, but you see we still don't continue in killings of innocent people. You're religion however, is based on that. The killing of innocent people. The Christians did not attack anyone, and for more than 3 centuries took the beating from muslims. You come to me and tell me that you are my friend yet you have it in your mind to kill me, you expect me to accept you?
No one says that what the Jews are doing are right. I think they can very well get along without this whole religious dispute. But it's not going to be that, because for the muslims it is all about religion, as well as for the Jews, you both are as guilty as ever.
The crusaders captured Jerusalem at first until it returned to muslims.
So it worked.

The relationship between me and david is special. You will not understand. Now lets get back to the religion. Not killing innocent people: Where do you want me to begin? In the first gulf war, definitely you are too young to remember, there were bombs with a lot of hatred agaist islam, scribbled on the sides for everyone to see. All of them dropped on iraqis and innocent muslims were killed. Now tell me how current do you want me to be? Even now, muslims are dying at the hands of non-muslims just because they are muslims and nothing else. Baby, I have been alive longer and i know a thing or two that will take you a generation or more to know!

Wahhabists existed before 9/11 so did the taliban, and hezbollah, and al qaeda. It is one thing to say that they are just a religious group, but they are being funded by muslim nations, that makes it political.

I thibk you need to read what i said, again. Wahhabists were in existence since Ithey started their group. That does not mean that it is known by most Muslims. Just like the fact that I did not know the tablig jamaah until 1998. But they have been in existence a lot longer. hats what i said. Read it again.

Then you are not a muslim. Your quran calls you to do so.

Show me in the Qur'an where muslims are instructed to destroy pigs and or churches? Are you okay, babe? And by the way, I have prayed Islamic prayer in a church in Manhattan, many times.

Well I can certainly agree with you on this, especially on the Jews. But take note not all Christian missions are to turn people into Christianity, especially the Catholic missions. We are to help people, if you want to convert fine, if not, fine. You will still eat, and drink, and bathe, and have aplace to live, and have a school to attend. Point is to help people.

Can you tell me how the Congolese feel about the Belgian Catholics, or the Algerians feel about the catholic French who almost anihilated them? I am not even going to touch the Spaniards over many spanish south americans.

Hmm look at that, you are adopting a Christian view of things. I thought a relationship with Allah is not possible.

Read it again; we do not install a patron, or a go between, in our relationship with God. We are unlike you, woman with the son in between, taking your prayer or your service to god. We on the other hand have direct relationship with God!.

Baby, you have to wake up pretty early to win this conversation.

I don't think you are product of such history, maybe, what could you have explained about the era of struggled because none of your forefathers were mentioned amongst the participant. Thus, your faulty historical claim about Islam being a terror. You balantly unable to justify your claim now you want to hide somewhere else. Maybe you need theoligians to help you on historical facts. This discussion is to heavy in your mind, and as long as you wish, I left the judgement to whoever who want to learn from it. I am ready to take you through history and refer you all the available references you need. I don't need to fight you, just to expose your ignorant. Nobody debunked your post if you are right. Absolutely not! and I will try as much to condone your insults. I don't hate you for anything because I have people like you arround me. I have my mother who is a christian, also my brother, even my father first daugther. The forum here is to dabate, especially historical event like this.

How can you open your mouth and say that ISlam is a peaceful religion when it is filled with nothing but hatred.
But you know I will only pray for your heart, that it will become free from hatred. It only leads to evil.

Yes, hatred to oppressors, the aggressors and tyrant leaders. You can pray whatever you like, just know I am not soliciting for it. Never the likes, it doesn't prevent it from sharing the truth with you.

No one waged war against Muhammad he was ignored and that pissed him off.

Then, this is part what I said earlier. Ignorantly typing something. Show this to your to christian fellows, I believe they will debunk it.

No we didn't give a rat's behind as to the beliefs of Muhammad, when Muhammad's followers killed Christians and Jews, the Christians decided to elp themselves. Have you ever heard of self defense.
It's funny, Islam says if you attack us we will defend ourselves, no one was attacking islam, islam attakced everyone and then everyone decided to defend themselves.
What did you expect us to sit and wait for you to kill us?

Muhammad killed Jews and Christian. Maybe you are asking. If not, provide refrences supporting your fact. I believe you can't win discussion. You need more hands. Get the theologians to help you, gather all the manuscripts you have. I believe I can take you to a lenght.

No one was in slavery. Islam put everyone is slavery, remember until they consider themselves subdued

Subdued you are right, slavery you are wrong. For example, Isalm conquerred the tyrant and opperessive leaders and their followers, a govt similar to that of pharao. Redeeming the people from salvery, allowed them to practice their religion. Paying of taxes for development of their nations. Example is that  of Jerusalem. Even after the first crusade which seem successful however later failed. Muslims were much welcomed again by the Jews lifted the ban which was earlier impose on them by christians. 

That is exactly what Islam did. I'm sorry that it has been removed from your history books, but go and find out from the rest of the world, that is what islam did. i am sorry that you have been lied to all your life, but seriously go and get educated first and then come and have this conversation with me.

I am sorry, I need to learn, then teach me. I need you to put me in line of history. Give me some refrences, maybe I can look for them at Amazon. As you said, history does not lie, unless you want to write your own historical book.

So because the muslims called their war holy it meant victory for them. You are an idiot and a bonafide idiot at that, you have no idea how wars work. Go and get educated on world history and wars and come back to me. No apologies for my statement. Sometimes it has to be pointed out so that your eyes will open.

Thank you. However, on this topic, I am idiot-proof. Above all, Jesus and Muhammad were more abused than that.

Blind bat go and read your history again, but this time make sure it is telling you the truth.

Another bomb, I am I all resistant to it. See the incoherent, you call me bat, not only that, but also a blind one. Now, you want me read.  Well, tell the historical prove of what you are claiming. Let people see it site all your refs.

Islam is both religious and political.
Islam proclaims peace and justice for muslim men, not women either.
If peace is not submission, why do you not see why Christians and Jews don't view Islam as peace, as submission is all we're asked to do.
Noone is asking you to submit. I could careless if you want to continue in your belief. I am asking you to leave me alone. And whenI say me, I mean all Christians, and when I say you, I mean all muslims. Leave us alone. If you want to inhabit your land, no one is stopping you, pray to allah all you want, just let us be.

It's funny that you come here, and say this meanwhile you muslim counterparts will quote this
Say unbelievers I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship what I worship, you have your own religion adn I have mine. Sura 109:1-6.

So where did the religion of you worship yours and I worship mine go. It does not single out a few unbelievers but all unbelievers.

Sister, you are getting it wrong. Not only Islam is political, but also other faiths. Your problem is that you did not comprehend what Islam is formaly. Now you are defending christianity by twisting historical facts. Islam is differ from christianity, right, I have provided the islamic side of what you call terro, even supported it with Quranic verse. Now lets here of christianity. You attack muslim first, claiming they are terrorist and you were asked several questions on this to provide details which you ignore. I took pain to explain against what you know or hear historically to prove you wrong. Inclusive are those which christian calls crusades and Jews perspectives. Now you prove me wrong. I agree, summarily, my questions are four according to your historical fact: 


1. During christian rulling in Jerusalem how did they treated other religions.

2. How did muslims conquerred Jerusalem chronologically?

3. How did christian carried out the crusades against Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem?

4. Is there any principles of defence or holy war and governing in chrisitanity, if yes, then tell us the modalities. If not, then we say crusades is nothing but a terror act.

littleb:

3. How did christian carried out the crusades against Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem?

You really dont need to stumble through much of the intellectually dishonest hogwash the muslims post here, all you need do is ferret out one of the many insiduous lies they push through the hubris they post . . . like shown above. . .

the crusades were NOT against Jews at all . . . infact they were launched to drive out muslim invaders, protect the jews and holiest sites in judaism which were being systematically destroyed by the muslims . . . an example is the temple mount and the wailing wall.

the crusades were NOT against Jews at all . . . infact they were launched to drive out muslim invaders, protect the jews and holiest sites in judaism which were being systematically destroyed by the muslims . . . an example is the temple mount and the wailing wall.

The same they way they were protected earlier before muslims took over:
1. The church ban on Jewish residents; homeland of their forefathers.
2. declaration of christianity as the sole relgion of Jerusalem and no regards for other faith.

The cold blooded killed of jews and Muslims in the crusades was also historical msap.

littleb:

The same they way they were protected earlier before muslims took over:
1. The church ban on Jewish residents; homeland of their forefathers.
2. declaration of christianity as the sole relgion of Jerusalem and no regards for other faith.

The cold blooded killed of jews and Muslims in the crusades was also historical msap.

-  Jews were not deliberately killed during the crusades.
- The british and NOT THE CHURCH were responsible for banning jewish immigration to palestine in the early 1800s, centuries AFTER the crusades.

when the muslims invaded palestine, they had no regard for other faiths too so whence are you crying foul?

@Lady

I noticed that most of your argument are flawed and you argued blindly probably because you read a biased book produced by one of you (christian) and I know you are very ignorant of what you posted, you lacked historical knowledge of the happenings then. My brothers have done justice to your thrash but would like to come in with regards to the verse you tried twisting to satisfy your religion but you forgot that Babs is here to expose and teach you your bible


Also in christianity that most of them lay claim to being peace with no war. The idea was concieved 1000 years ago, maybe the following realization got to their head:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Mat 10:34).

hahaha look at you trying to twist the words of Jesus. The sword is not physical, it doesn't mean take up arms and kill people. It does not call for war with people but a spiritual war against the devil, the world (secularism) as in not get caught up in the celebrities and how t please a man cosmos, and the flesh (sins) as in adultery, fornication, murder, lies, stealing. The Christians never waged war on others, they were the ones running for their lives.
A Christian's war is not a physical war, but a spiritual war.

Now don't accept me to be deceived just you are being programmed never to read and fathom the meaning. Now if Jesus did not refer to physical sword, why did he say that it was enough when they showed him two physical swords?

@posters diz thread is nt 4 argument or conflict purpose,its 4 opnions,views and perception purpose to solve current problems at hand thanks, am waitin 4 more contribution.

@Lady

You have just a verse to slug it out with Babs anytime you are back. Read my last post and profer solution to the verse and the question raised by me.

My two intelligent Brothers: Littleb and Olabowale did wonderful justice to your false stories in which you couldn't support with anything and I told you that you should get your fact straight before coming here because you would be further exposed and you would find out that what your leaders have been feeding you are all lies. Your book even told you to prove all things and hold fast to which is the truth and my question remain the same. Let you and I discuss the verse you wrongly interpreted.

Let us assume that i agree with Olabowale about the fact he has repeatedly stressed that these 'terrorists' and trouble makers do not really understand islam the way the prophet preached and carried it out, what are they going to do about it? what is the muslium world going to do about these misguided peole because really not many people wil be willing to buy a koran to know the religion, people naturally will look at the followers and expect to know about the religion.
if i can suggest i think islam can be re-branded by the leaders of the religion in nigeria
they need to always come out and denounce these acts of violence done in the name of the prophet, if islamic clerics can come out and say hey those guys who kiled the 50year old in kano were wrong then the younger followers may just begin to reason like them.the silence of the leaders when such acts are comited is a tacit support for those acts.

There needs to be an islamic injunction that preaches dialogue first before resort to the weapons

an interesting example is the one quoted by little b on another thread where someone urinated in the mosque, if the prophet himself could pardon the fellow and gently explain to him then the followers should be willing to do the same, but really guys, if that event had been in a mosque even in oshogbo, i wonder what would have become of the unfortunate fellow.

i think another problem with the north in nigeria is illiteracy, those people probably will never read the koran themselves and only listen to their misguided leaders who'll use them for just about anything, so i think islam should encourage literacy and not just islamic studies, intelectualism helps to a large extent.
well these are just my takes because based on a few muslim friends ive had in this life im willing to believe it is really a religion of peace,just before i listen to the next world news!

@reindeer: « #90 on: Today at 08:15:51 AM »

i think another problem with the north in nigeria is illiteracy, those people probably will never read the koran themselves and only listen to their misguided leaders who'll use them for just about anything,

Maybe you are up to something, here. Byt the people should not follow a leader, blindly. None of the leaders is a prophet. Only a prophet of God, you can follow BLINDLY, if there is anything called blind following.

so i think islam should encourage literacy and not just islamic studies, intelectualism helps to a large extent.

The first University organized on earth, and remains to exist, even up till now, is Islamic Al Ahzar University of Egypt. This is organized under Islamic umbrella. All other Universities on earth copied its programs, from matriculation to graduations, etc. We must not forget even the minute details as graduation gowns, etc. All of these are from Islam, not from Judaism and definitely, not Christianity.

Islam commands and then encourages educations. Both religious and secular education is encouraged. Islam calls for research/investigation, observation and conclusion/inference. If a person or group however refuses to seek knowledge, we can not say that this is from Sharia or Sunnah. We can conclude that the person is ignorant or blatantly refusing to obey God and His messenger in seeking knowledge. Islam is intelectual. But muslims, for the most part may not be, in a secular sense.

well these are just my takes because based on a few muslim friends ive had in this life im willing to believe it is really a religion of peace,just before i listen to the next world news!

The muslims really need to turn back to Islam. The muslims need to take their own accounts from Islamic perception. It is not Islam who should be perceived by the acts of the muslims. No wonder that the prophet (AS) said that 72 sects from the muslims will first go to hell, while only 1 sect will go to Paradise, directly, without ever being to hell. My concern is if I am from the 1 sect that will go to paradise without ever spending anytime in hell. Then, I ask without wanting any answer, really, how large is the population of this 1 sect, compared to the 72 sects that will not go to paradise without ever being in hell. Interestingly, from the 72 that will be in hell, at least for sometimes, there will be groups that will not come out, ever.

Among this group will be people known as Munafiqun, or hypocrite. Further, no sect of the other religions or in mankind, in general, will eve escape hellfire. This therefore is your concern, in a secondary way after dealling with the issues of Islam. Where do you stand, reindeer? Do think about this matter vigorously.

The first University organized on earth, and remains to exist, even up till now, is Islamic Al Ahzar University of Egypt.

False!
University of Al-Karaouine is the oldest and the first.
Albeit it was founded in Morocco. . . . . .But Nor dey lie abeg!

@Sly: Al Ahzar, in Egypt is older and earlier. It is you who should not dey lie. Check your sources.

LOL. Only a Muslim could come up with this one!!!

Long before then, the European Christians have been making incursions, if you will, minor crusades, here and there in the Continental Europe.

"European Christians were making incursions in Continental Europe"

You could have written: "Africans have invaded Africa" or "Man steals his own property from his own house".

How can a people make "incursions" onto their own territory? And why would they be fighting on their own territory? Who would they be fighting?

Yep. They would be fighting an invader. That means they are defending their land from agression.

Trust a Muslim to turn Christian defence of one's own land into agression against Islam. Even when they admit to being in the wrong, they dress it up to try and make it look like it's not their fault.

@Bastage: And when Hitler and his rouge clique invaded and overran Poland, I am sure in your mind, one of them was no more European?

And when Georgia invaded South Assetia, and Russia used the pretense of this to invade Georgia, I bet in your mind one of them, at least was no more of the same breed; from the old Soviet block.

Bastage, when a tribe in africa invaded another one, did it mean that one of them was no more African? When the indian hindus fought the indian muslim, in the Kujurat massacre of the recent years, did it throw any of the warring group out of being Indian?

If you think hard, yu will agree that what it takes for a war to begin, is a different view point; irreconciable differences. Like marriage it can fall apart!