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A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour - Religion (4) - Nairaland

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The Bankruptcy Of The Prosperity Gospel: An Exercise In Biblical And Theological / Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing / An Invitation To A Theological Discuss On One Corinthians Chapter Four (2) (3) (4)

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 10:54pm On Dec 10, 2013
Needing Point R2, thanks in advance.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 6:25am On Dec 11, 2013
I encourage Image123 and Rhymeyjohn to Present R2. We are already behind schedule for that.

Image and co, you have up till 10am to Present R2 and Mark and co are to respond to that before 6pm (since they have posted at 6am), today.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 6:27am On Dec 11, 2013
[size=16pt]Attention Audience!!![/size]

We would like to thank and appreciate you all for your patience with us on this thread and for not posting indiscriminately; abiding by our rules. Following the tithe discuss, we will be allowing both tithers and those who do not tithe to present their views also; knowing fully well that there are some of us who are veteran tithe supporters and some who are anti-tithers. A full day of 24 hours shall first be given to only tithers to air their position on tithing. Posters in this section will still be asked to observe the rules for posting on this thread which our participants have abided by: no insults; no jibes; etc. Then a full day shall be given to those who do not tithe to air their views next. In this section, we would prefer that posters do not refute each other posts but rather concentrate on stating a summary of their views on tithing and why they think people should tithe or not tithe. No limit shall be given to this post; except that it should not be more than one post and it should finish with “end”. Then the moderators themselves shall state their own position on tithing.

After this, the flood gate shall be opened to “outsiders”. We trust that the nairaland management shall be kind enough to put the thread on front page after the whole conclusion of the matter “in-house”. Then everyone will be free to post, without limitation, without the rules.

Until that time audience are still advised not to post while the discussion is going on or your post will be hidden.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 6:29am On Dec 11, 2013
[size=16pt]Attention Participants!!![/size]

Realizing how much these discuss is going to take of our time and energy, I would first like to thank all of you for the effort you are bringing in to making this project a success. I will also want to give us the liberty of a break. If a participants shall find himself engaged over some other works and realizes that he would not be able to give himself to this discuss as much as he wants to, I am giving us the liberty of proposing a break of a week at most. I would not want us to abuse this opportunity because the advantage of having two individuals in each party is so that the other can carry on when the former is not available. But if it turns out that a party cannot carry on the discuss because of the unavailability of one of the parties, then we could propose a break. This option is coming to make room for the “Long Walk to Freedom” that this tithe discussion shall entail.

Thank you.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 6:51am On Dec 11, 2013
Presenting R2 Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. (Psalm 119v142)

Why do we give tithe? What is our foundation for obedience? Actions are motivated in many ways, actions have different reasons. i've seen people pray because they were forced to. i've also seen people fast so that something evil will happen to another. i've seen people read the word of God to find holes and contradictions. i believe in the three actions above; prayer, fasting and reading the word of God. On the other hand, i disagree with the three motives or reasons above. These three scenarios show that the ACTION should not be condemned for(because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. We do not all have the same reasons for salvation or believing God. i think the more important thing is that we are saved and believe God.
Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth

i can safely forget everything else and go home, knowing that God's law is the truth. Jesus Christ said the same thing BTW; Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. The law of God is the Word of God, and it is truth and light. Because it is truth and light, it should be respected and regarded. We cannot or should not dismiss any Word of God with a wave of the hand. The wave of the hand dismissal is very common with the Old Testament scripture, and is even done to some new testament scriptures. This ought not to be so. To show the immense importance of the Old Testament scriptures and how rooted the new testament books are in the old testament scriptures, nearly all the 39 books are quoted in the new testament. Let me give to the best of my knowledge, an example of at least 30 books regarded and respected in the New Testament.
1. Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

2. Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.


3. Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD.
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well:

4. Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

5. Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

6. Josh 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

7. Rth 4:18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begot Hezron,
Rth 4:19 And Hezron begot Ram, and Ram begot Amminadab,
Rth 4:20 And Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon,
Rth 4:21 And Salmon begot Boaz, and Boaz begot Obed,
Rth 4:22 And Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David.

Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Tamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab; and Boaz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;

8. 1Sa 21:3 Now therefore what is under thine hand? give me five loaves of bread in mine hand, or what there is present.
1Sa 21:4 And the priest answered David, and said, There is no common bread under mine hand, but there is hallowed bread; if the young men have kept themselves at least from women.
1Sa 21:6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.

Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests

9. 1Ki 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

10. Neh 9:15 And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and promisedst them that they should go in to possess the land which thou hadst sworn to give them.

Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

11. Est 1:20 And when the king's decree which he shall make shall be published throughout all his empire, (for it is great,) all the wives shall give to their husbands honor, both to great and small.
1Pe 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

12. Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

13. Psa 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

14. Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

15. Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

16. Son 8:14 Make haste, my beloved, and be thou like to a roe or to a young hart upon the mountains of spices.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

17. Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Mat 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

18. Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the Scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

19. Lam 3:45 Thou hast made us as the offscouring and refuse in the midst of the people.
1Co 4:13 Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

20. Eze 36:20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD, and are gone forth out of his land.
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 6:51am On Dec 11, 2013
21. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understandsmiley

22. Hos 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

23. Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

24. Amo 9:11 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:
Amo 9:12 That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Act 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
Act 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Act 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

25. Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and, behold, a greater than Jonah is here.

26. Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

27. Nah 3:4 Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the well favored harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts.

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

28. Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

29. Hag 2:6 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

30. Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Joh 12:15 Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

Now, you do not make reference to 30 places in a book that you do not respect. Not to mention that these are 30 different books in the Scriptures. A close look at what the Bible says of the law of God should make us respect it and regard it.
Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
The law of the LORD is perfect. We should never think that it was perfect before, and imperfect now. The law of the LORD is perfect. It is so perfect that God promised to put it in His children in our time.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


I will put my laws into their hearts. This is God's will and wish.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.


Can it really be congruent with true faith that any one should believe that these verses above are not true or no more true? Clearly, i am saying that one of our reasons for tithing is because we that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. We therefore cannot say for instance that the word "tithe" is not in the new testament scripture, therefore that SPEAKS VOLUMES. To us, the law of God also speaks volumes.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(BBE) Do we, then, through faith make the law of no effect? in no way: but we make it clear that the law is important.
(CEV) Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.
(GNB) Does this mean that by this faith we do away with the Law? No, not at all; instead, we uphold the Law.
(GW) Are we abolishing Moses' Teachings by this faith? That's unthinkable! Rather, we are supporting Moses' Teachings.
(WEB) Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.
(Webster) Do we then make void the law through faith? By no means: but we establish the law.


i do not use my ID card to withdraw money at an ATM machine. It is not useful for that purpose. But my ID card is not useless. The law of God is not with the purpose of saving us or justifying us or making us become righteous! It is basically not useful for that purpose. It is faith in God that makes us saved, justified or righteous.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
We are not talking about salvation, tithe is not salvation. One reason why we tithe is because we do not disregard God's law or think it useless.

END

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 8:47am On Dec 11, 2013
I finally fell asleep after 6:30 PM my time, I believe that is 1:30 AM your time. I woke up at just before midnight here, but our internet has been down until just a few minutes ago.

I will begin working on the Rebuttal presently.

Image, thank you for posting the Presentation R2.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 9:27am On Dec 11, 2013
DrummaBoy: I encourage Image123 and Rhymeyjohn to Present R2. We are already behind schedule for that.

Image and co, you have up till 10am to Present R2 and Mark and co are to respond to that before 6pm (since they have posted at 6am), today.

You're welcome Mark, have a good night rest.
My oga moderator, our agreement is 12hours in between posts oh. 12hours. i'm not sure we're rushing anywhere or have a deadline to close thread. Please, let's be more patient.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 11:11am On Dec 11, 2013
Image123:

You're welcome Mark, have a good night rest.
My oga moderator, our agreement is 12hours in between posts oh. 12hours. i'm not sure we're rushing anywhere or have a deadline to close thread. Please, let's be more patient.

I have seen that whoever offers the response to response is usually the person to do the next presentation for the next point to discuss. Since this points have been enumerated already, my assumption was that we have them already written. I am not sure if the 12 hours agreement applied to in btw response to response and presentation. But if that is how we want it, no problem.

We are not in a rush, really. I agree.

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 11:31am On Dec 11, 2013
DrummaBoy:

I have seen that whoever offers the response to response is usually the person to do the next presentation for the next point to discuss. Since this points have been enumerated already, my assumption was that we have them already written. I am not sure if the 12 hours agreement applied to in btw response to response and presentation. But if that is how we want it, no problem.

We are not in a rush, really. I agree.
While it is true that we should have much written of what seems to be hashed out over and over, in some instances that which is written may need to be set aside to approach the previous posters post from a different angle.

Case in point: The last post by Image, which we are to address, contains many verses. Verses that, if we are going to be thorough, need to be looked up by us, not just to assure that they are there, but also to allow us to read the context that the verse applies to.

Context is important. And for this reason, I propose that the 12-hour rule is equally important if one is going to give an exhaustive rebuttal to a presentation.

1 Like

Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Candour(m): 12:36pm On Dec 11, 2013
Image123:

You're welcome Mark, have a good night rest.
My oga moderator, our agreement is 12hours in between posts oh. 12hours. i'm not sure we're rushing anywhere or have a deadline to close thread. Please, let's be more patient.

I share Image's sentiments and would plead with DrummaBoy to allow for a little flexibility in the time limits though based on request to enable the other team plan their time too.

I'm a bit constrained at the moment and was only able to establish limited contact with Mark less than 30mins ago. I still await his reply and since we want to always speak with one voice, I believe he'll be favourably disposed to this request as I informed him in my correspondence with him.

In that light, I humbly request an additional 5 hours which should elapse by 11:51pm Nigerian time. I apologise to you and my brothers in the other team for whatever inconveniences you suffer as a result.

Thanks a lot and God bless
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 4:21pm On Dec 11, 2013
^^^ Alright. Waiting.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 5:52pm On Dec 11, 2013
Rebuttal to Presentation R2:

It is amazing that our opponents state that "we tithe because we do not disregard God's law or think it useless." But is the Law being disregarded?

My contention is that it most certainly is. the law is indeed good.
However the apostle Paul under inspiration said the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully.

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;


Can we honestly say our tithing brothers are using the tithe laws lawfully?

Also, when God gave the law, he admonished the receivers about being serious in their practice and keeping of it. See the following scripture.



Deuteronomy 6:17 KJV

Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the Lord your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.


Are they truly diligently keeping the laws and commandments of God concerning the tithe?




The Law does not call for a tithe of money. The Law demands tithe of Agricultural nature. Tithe was was to be eaten. Tithe was to be taken to Jerusalem once a year.



Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.



Deuteronomy 14:22-27 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and
shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt
bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.




Tithe was to be taken to the Levites



Nehemiah 10:37-38 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.



that there would be food in the House of God.



Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.



I submit to the reader that when one bends his ear and his will to the monetary tithe doctrine, that one is not regarding the Law of God at all.


Our opponents suggest that we are to regard the Law, that the Law is supposed to be written in our hearts. Yet, the Word of God tells us



Jeremiah 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



God was not speaking of the Gentile Believers in Christ at all! He was speaking of His people Israel. He would establish His Law in their hearts… a Law that they were to love and to observe.

In his epistle to the Hebrews, Paul was not saying God would write His Laws on the hearts of the Gentile Converts. Context shows that Paul was referring to the Israelites. Notice:



Hebrews 10:15-16 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;



The Holy Ghost is a witness to whom concerning God’s Laws? To the Hebrews. Not to the Gentiles. Paul was not writing to the Gentiles, he was writing to Hebrews, Jews of the stock of Israel.



Hebrews
13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. [b]Written to the Hebrews from Italy [/b]by
Timothy.




Things Hard to be Understood

Ro. 3:28-31

“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” – Ro 3:28-31

The Law was not given to make man righteous. It was given to show man his unrighteousness and to lead him to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ro 3:19-20; Ga 3:10-14,24-25). All of man’s righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). There is none that doeth good (Ro 3:12). All have sinned and all are condemned (Ro 3:9-23. To be saved we must have the very righteousness of God, and that can only come through faith in Jesus Christ (2Co 5:21).
Those who trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior have the very righteousness of God applied to their account. The believer stands in Christ’s righteousness. Hereby the law is established FOR ITS INTENDED PURPOSE (Ro 3:28-31).



The Law is established to cause man to see his sinfulness and his need for a Saviour. But once he sees that need and comes to Christ in repentance, he is no longer under the authority and auspices of the Law, it’s penalties and its peripherals.



Galatians
3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.




To insist that we must keep any part of the Law is to deny Christ’s authority in our lives.

End

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 6:30pm On Dec 11, 2013
Candour helped, but the Holy Spirit guided us both.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 7:29pm On Dec 11, 2013
Thank you Mark Miwerds for the delivery.

Image123 and Rhymeyjohn you have up till 6 am tomorrow to offer Response to Rebuttal R2; except you want to apply for more time.

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 7:36pm On Dec 11, 2013
Our audience may follow all presentations so far on this post:

https://www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123#20085393

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 11:42pm On Dec 11, 2013
Response to rebuttal R2


The ACTION should not be condemned for(because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. As observed in the rebut given by our discussants, what amazes them is actually the reason and not the action. Our reasons stated so far have being that God's Word is to be regarded, and that ALL of God's Word is inspired by God and profitable. This has been foundational in our not discarding scriptures with scriptures. Thankfully, it seems we both agree that many people disregard and disrespect the law. i conclude that from this statement that "Is the Law being disregarded? My contention is that it most certainly is". As for us, we do not want to disregard the law. To disregard is to ignore or treat a thing/person without respect, with contempt. We do not want to do that to the law of God, and we encourage every believer not to disregard God's law.
God's law is good and profitable and divinely inspired. The Bible NEVER says that the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully. That would be an exaggeration as the word "ONLY" is conspicuously missing. i checked the popular translations and the word "ONLY" does not appear in 1Timothy 1v8. One word added to a sentence can distort meanings. Imagine putting or omitting the word "NOT" in a statement or oath. For instance;
1. You are my child.
2. You are not my child.
3. You are my child.
4. You are my only child.
See the four sentences above, and note how one word changes the meaning. Here is 1Timothy.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

How is the law meant to be used? The law of God is to be used as a mirror. Not ONLY by the way. i'm just stating one of the uses of God's law for explanation. What do you use a mirror for? To examine yourself, to see your state. When we look at God's law, we see a mirror that helps us to see our self and also see God.
2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


These passages are talking about God's law. The first passage talks about how some people(in the Old Testament) looked at God's law with a veil, but how we look at it with open face, beholding as in a glass. The second passage is more straight as it all in the same verse. This is one use of God's law. By the way, God's law is simply God's Word i.e the Bible. It is not just some specific books or verses. Let us not assume that i am referring solely to some books as God's law. God's law is God's Word, the Bible (Romans 15v4).
Using God's Word as a mirror is a lawful way to use God's law. Like i initially EMPHASIZED, God's law is not used for righteousness or salvation or justification. Man's obedience or study of God's law is not what brings salvation or justification. It is faith in Christ that brings that. Just like i do not use my ID card at an ATM machine, however my ID card is not useless.
Gala 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gala 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


From this two verses, it is very clear and straight forward that righteousness or justification are not by the law. It is UNlawful to use the law for that purpose. We do not tithe for that purpose.
As a mirror, the law shows us our faults. God's Word shows us our faults and failings. It proves to us that all have sinned. It is written for transgressors.
Gala 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

After it has achieved this purpose, the next thing should be that we through Christ are changed. We do not use a mirror on our body or face to clean ourselves or adjust. We use Christ, as without Him the believer can do nothing. He is our righteousness and our life. When you see the fault and transgression with the mirror, then you go to who can help you. The law can not help you in that area. It is Jesus(abi na the blood of Jesus) that cleanses us. The law could NEVER do that. So, we should rightly divide, and use the law lawfully, knowing its purpose(s).
for us, we can do nothing without Christ, but we can do all things through Christ. We do not give a tithe or anything without the help and grace of God. Our sufficiency is of God. We are not UNDER the law but UNDER God's grace. God's grace helps us in time of need.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
What we do is that when we see our need in God's mirror, we run to Him for grace to help. We do not stay UNDER the law asking it for help. We might not have it all or claim to be perfect, but in our little understanding from God's word, we ask Him for help. We do not throw our hands in the air in frustration of the many parts left untouched. But we take it in its stride, one step at a time. Amongst tithe givers, we have many who have grown in the grace of giving. But we never condemn because we have received more grace or something. If you have grace to give double or more of the tithe, very well. We are not driven by the laws' demands, but by the Spirit's leading and help.
In the law of God, which is the Bible, we visibly see tithes of ALL that one possesses. This is why we state that ALL Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable. We count verses such as the below as inspired and profitable.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 11:43pm On Dec 11, 2013
As children of God, we are the Israel of God. There is no jew or gentile in Christ. Jesus died for this. He died to make us one, to remove the partition. We as christians should not be advocating for division. Jesus wanted the whole world saved, the apostles went about preaching only to jews for a very long time. All the Scripture is profitable for us all, not just for jews. Any one under God, as a child of God is addressed by God in the same way as His dear children. He does not intend to write His laws in some of His children, and then leave the other children. He loves us all.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.
Num 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


He has made both one, he has. Why do we not believe this. The Bible clearly says that what god has joined together, man should not put asunder. We should not put asunder just because of discussion. Writing to Hebrews, or writing to Ephesians, God's will for all of us is clearly revealed.
There is no insistence or force by man that we must keep anything. We are stating our reasons for giving the tithe, not telling anyone that they MUST do anything. In the dear words of John the beloved, we say as it were.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

It's your choice to make. We give the tithe cheerfully.


END

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Candour(m): 5:08am On Dec 12, 2013
We will get the response in before 6pm today

Thank you

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 5:38am On Dec 12, 2013
Hoping my emails are getting through. Hotmail froze up on me earlier.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 5:51am On Dec 12, 2013
Thank you Image123 for that wonderful response.

Thank you Candour for stating the time; I guess my job is slimming down a great deal here and very soon I will post less and just "siddon look".
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by DrummaBoy(m): 9:00am On Dec 12, 2013
[size=16pt]Attention Participants!!![/size]

The vision of this discuss is to help answer some questions in the heart of our viewers and readers so that they may gain understanding into the subject of tithing; and whatever they do afterwards: whether to tithe or not tithe, they would do it with understanding and faith, so as not to sin against God. To reach this goal, both parties in this discuss have enumerated ten points each that will discussed. Now that we are about concluding the third point out of twenty, I feel I should draw the attention of the participants to some frequently asked questions (FAQs) on the subject of tithing; and ask you to answer these questions as you teach on the various points you have enumerated.

To achieve this, I am going to ask both the "anti-tithing" and the "pro-tithing" party a number of questions and will desire that as we teach on our point we should include answer to these questions in the body of our discuss. This is important because we must understand that the discussion is not just between four people but between two groups in Christendom. These four only represent the groups. So, please note I am not expecting answers to these questions straight away; I am asking that we provide the answers in the body of this discuss, so that everyone is enlightened.

FAQ for "Anti-Tithers":

1. Will a person who does not tithe his income be going to hell? Is he a robber of God's treasury and condemned to separation from God?

2. Who is Melchizedek? Is Melchizedek Jesus? If Melchizedek is Jesus, are Christians obligated to tithe to Melchizedek the same way Abraham, said to be the father of our faith, tithed to him?

3. If we do not tithe, how and what are Christians expected to give?

4. How does a Church organization run without tithe monies from its members?

5. Why are anti-tithers "obsessed" with the matter of tithing?

FAQ for "Pro-Tither"

1. Is tithing obligatory? Are we expected to pay our tithe or give our tithe?

2. Who exactly is robbing God? The man that does not tithe his income according to Malachi 3 or the Pastors that have turned the church to a den of thieves according to Jesus' words?

3. What is the historical account of tithing in Christendom since the days of the apostles? Is it true that tithing was never practised until sometimes in the sixth century?

4. Why do some churches consider non-tithers heretics or anathema, if tithing is not as important or as central as many tithers claim it is?

5. Is there any scriptural evidence to show that the Levitical priesthood that collected the tithes in the Old Testament has been converted to the ministry of Pastors and Teachers, or to the church as a whole?

At this point I am going to ask our viewers to post their own questions on the mother thread to this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1540233/inviting-tithers-theological-discuss-miwerds. I would be going through the questions posted there and would update the questions I have posted above with them. I ask that the participants keep these question at heart and answer them when they can in the body of their discuss. Participants, should note that these questions are not to be answered directly, but to be answered as they discuss their various points.

Thank you every one.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Image123(m): 10:16am On Dec 12, 2013
Yeah, it's a joint effort though. It seems Rhymej and i have hit the floor running as it were, lol
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Rhymeyjohn: 3:21pm On Dec 12, 2013
@Drummaboy, I advise against the decision you are proposing. We dont want words put in our mouths, those points will naturally play out in the course of the discuss. Just let it continue this way.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 4:22pm On Dec 12, 2013
I believe the questions to be valid questions.

I myself have already worked up answers to the five questions directed at Candour and myself, and do plan to incorporate those answers in some of my future points, rebuttals or responses.
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Candour(m): 5:05pm On Dec 12, 2013
I think I understand what Rhymeyjohn is saying and I concur with him. DrummaBoy wants a robust discussion that leaves no stone unturned but I think we all are at Liberty to do or not. Whatever we leave out will surely be asked by the audience in due course so let's not make a law on it.

We all are free to treat them like Mark has done or wait till questions arise. There's liberty in Christ and there is on this thread too.

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Zikkyy(m): 5:09pm On Dec 12, 2013
...
Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by MarkMiwerds(m): 5:19pm On Dec 12, 2013
Candour: I think I understand what Rhymeyjohn is saying and I concur with him. DrummaBoy wants a robust discussion that leaves no stone unturned but I think we all are at Liberty to do or not. Whatever we leave out will surely be asked by the audience in due course so let's not make a law on it.

We all are free to treat them like Mark has done or wait till questions arise. There's liberty in Christ and there is on this thread too.
Agreed!

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Re: A Theological Discuss On Tithing By Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Mark Miwerds & Candour by Candour(m): 5:37pm On Dec 12, 2013
RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2

The Pharisee in the parable of Jesus said ‘I give tithes of all I possess’. Our brothers who insist on tithing look to this verse for support when preaching tithe and also use it to affirm that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. The problem with their position relative to this verse is that the Pharisee knew to whom God said he should give the tithes but our brethren seem not to be sure. Some say they give to Jesus, Some say Melchizedek, Some say Pastors, Some say the church and some say the altar. But do we have to grope in the dark about this simplest of information? It’s in the bible actually; in more than one place and I reproduce them here for all to see

Numbers 18:21 KJV
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Numbers 18:23-24 KJV
But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. [24] But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
Deuteronomy 14:22-23 KJV
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.
Deuteronomy 14:28-29 KJV
At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
Nehemiah 10:37-38 KJV
And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. [38] And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

Brethren, with all the scriptures above, are you still in the dark about the identity of the TRUE owners of the tithes as decreed by God himself? You can only be if you decide the dark is where you want to be.

Does the tithe practiced today remotely resemble any of the verses reproduced above? The honest answer is no. What is done today in the name of tithing is a sham; The practitioners indeed treat the laws of God with contempt and make mockery of a practice instituted by God almighty with a specific purpose and clear as daylight instructions.

Paul under inspiration said the below

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;


Our brothers say 'The Bible NEVER says that the law is only good when a man uses it lawfully'? Does that mean the law is also good when a man decides to use it unlawfully? Is that not trying to look for loopholes to explore in the bible translations?

I'm glad my brother talks so much about the law. It shows he has high regards for it. I'll also reproduce a verse he quoted

James 1:23 KJV
'For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:


some few verses down, the apostle said this

James 2:10 KJV
'For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all'


Let me paraphrase 'if you keep all the tithe laws, and unlawfully deny the lawful beneficiaries their dues, YOU'RE GUILTY OF ALL THE LAW' because proper administration and distribution are also part of the law.

See what happened to some people who decide to use the law the way they saw fit and not the way God intended

Leviticus 10:1-2 KJV
And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord , which he commanded them not. [2] And there went out fire from the Lord , and devoured them, and they died before the Lord
.

They died because they offered strange fire which God commanded them not. If God doesn't command it, don't do it. If he does, do it properly otherwise consequences could be dire.

Hear Paul again

1 Timothy 1:8 KJV
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;


Please, use the law lawfully because it's not a mirror but even if it's a mirror, the Tithe practice today is a very poor and horribly distorted reflection of the Original tithe laws instituted by God. We do not look at the Law with open face... we look at the Glory of the Lord. It's there in the very Scripture that our brothers referenced:

2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:18 is not telling us to go to the Law at all. It is telling us to look to Christ. The just shall live by faith, not by the Law because the law is an unbearable yoke (Acts 15:10) and a hard schoolmaster (Gal 3:24) and no man can be justified by doing it (Rom 3:20).

For our brethren who insist on regarding the law, it's wise and prudent to at least stay true to it otherwise all they practice is a false worship.

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