All the words inside [……] are added by me never appear in Bible.

After several attempts of whom the Archangel Michael is, JWs has finally come to conclusion and based their doctrine on Jesus Christ be the Archangel Michael.
To all Bible students, Archangel Michael is a created being of God. In their Bible story book, JWs explained that God first created a being[God's Son] which supposedly to be an Angel Michael and this being helped God during the creation period which God later sent to the world in a person of Jesus Christ.

Was Christ truly a created being?

John 1:1-14; it's a well known Bible verses which talk mostly about Christ in reference to Him as "The Word". JWs believe that "The Word" in those verses is not God that's why they used "a god" in verse 1.

Let's see what the JWs say about "The Word" as the one created everything including archangel Michael.
John 1:3 "All things[including Archangel Michael] came into existence through him[The Word], and apart from him[The Word] not even one thing[including Angel Michael] came into existence, what has come into existence."

In this verse with the insertion of the word "APART" it's very clear that without "The Word" not a single thing came into existence which pushed "The Word/Christ" outside of creation.

*If "not even one thing came into existence without Christ", how come Christ/The Word later became Angel Michael a created being according to JWs?

Similarly, apostle Paul uses a statement to this verse in Romans,
Rom 11:36 "Because from him[God] and by[through] him[God] and to him[God] are all things...."
By separating each phrases here we can get;
1) Because from him[God] are all things
2) and by[through] him[God] are all things
3) and to him[God] are all things.

Focus on number 2, because most time Christ is included in creation in the Bible it's always in form of "by/through him"
Here all things are by/through God not that God created Christ first and then through Christ created the rest/other.

FIRSTBORN:
Because of this word FIRSTBORN JWs throw themselves into confusion which lead to a contradiction in their Bible. In Col 1:15-18, Apostle Paul made a similar statement like that of Apostle John. Let's look at those statements;
Rom 1:16 "Because by[through] (means of) him[Christ] all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.... All (other) things have been created through him and for him"
Verse 17 "Also, He is before all (other) things and by[through] (means of) him all (other) things were made to exist."
NOTE: Those words inside the brackets were added to give more meaning to the setences.

Here we can see this inserted word "OTHER" in those verses.
Now, with the insertion of this word "OTHER" in the two verses it shows that Christ was first created before any other things which then put Christ into creation and also contradict John 1:3 & Rom 11:36.

Why the word, OTHER in those verses?
Because in verse 15 this phrase "the FIRSTBORN over all creation" appeared, and without fully understand this word JWs became confused whereas the firstborn here was used as a sovereignty/preeminent. If Apostle Paul means first created, he would have used the Hebrew word protoktioti rather he used the Hebrew word prototokos which means sovereignty/preeminent.

Last sentence in verse 16 of that Colossians 1 and that of Romans 11:36 together with John 1:3 compliment each other in any version except JWs version by the insertion of the word "OTHER".

CONCLUSION:
In fighting against TRINITY JWs throw themselves into pandemonium confusion changing of doctrine upon doctrine and to a contradictory statement in their Bible. Also no where in the Bible it was stated that any being helped God in creation as it was explained in their Bible story book rather Bible declared that God created everything by His Word Heb 11:3, Gen 1:2-24.
Who knows which doctrine JWs will come up with later and the Bible warn us that "In order we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching[doctrine] by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error." Eph 4:14

All the Bible references are from New World Translation.

Emusan: All the words inside [……] are added by me never appear in Bible.

After several attempts of whom the Archangel Michael is, JWs has finally come to conclusion and based their doctrine on Jesus Christ be the Archangel Michael.
To all Bible students, Archangel Michael is a created being of God. In their Bible story book, JWs explained that God first created a being[God's Son] which supposedly to be an Angel Michael and this being helped God during the creation period which God later sent to the world in a person of Jesus Christ.

Was Christ truly a created being?

John 1:1-14; it's a well known Bible verses which talk mostly about Christ in reference to Him as "The Word". JWs believe that "The Word" in those verses is not God that's why they used "a god" in verse 1.

Let's see what the JWs say about "The Word" as the one created everything including archangel Michael.
John 1:3 "All things[including Archangel Michael] came into existence through him[The Word], and apart from him[The Word] not even one thing[including Angel Michael] came into existence, what has come into existence."

In this verse with the insertion of the word "APART" it's very clear that without "The Word" not a single thing came into existence which pushed "The Word/Christ" outside of creation.

*If "not even one thing came into existence without Christ", how come Christ/The Word later became Angel Michael a created being according to JWs?

Similarly, apostle Paul uses a statement to this verse in Romans,
Rom 11:36 "Because from him[God] and by[through] him[God] and to him[God] are all things...."
By separating each phrases here we can get;
1) Because from him[God] are all things
2) and by[through] him[God] are all things
3) and to him[God] are all things.

Focus on number 2, because most time Christ is included in creation in the Bible it's always in form of "by/through him"
Here all things are by/through God not that God created Christ first and then through Christ created the rest/other.

FIRSTBORN:
Because of this word FIRSTBORN JWs throw themselves into confusion which lead to a contradiction in their Bible. In Col 1:15-18, Apostle Paul made a similar statement like that of Apostle John. Let's look at those statements;
Rom 1:16 "Because by[through] (means of) him[Christ] all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.... All (other) things have been created through him and for him"
Verse 17 "Also, He is before all (other) things and by[through] (means of) him all (other) things were made to exist."
NOTE: Those words inside the brackets were added to give more meaning to the setences.

Here we can see this inserted word "OTHER" in those verses.
Now, with the insertion of this word "OTHER" in the two verses it shows that Christ was first created before any other things which then put Christ into creation and also contradict John 1:3 & Rom 11:36.

Why the word, OTHER in those verses?
Because in verse 15 this phrase "the FIRSTBORN over all creation" appeared, and without fully understand this word JWs became confused whereas the firstborn here was used as a sovereignty/preeminent. If Apostle Paul means first created, he would have used the Hebrew word protoktioti rather he used the Hebrew word prototokos which means sovereignty/preeminent.

Last sentence in verse 16 of that Colossians 1 and that of Romans 11:36 together with John 1:3 compliment each other in any version except JWs version by the insertion of the word "OTHER".

CONCLUSION:
In fighting against TRINITY JWs throw themselves into pandemonium confusion changing of doctrine upon doctrine and to a contradictory statement in their Bible. Also no where in the Bible it was stated that any being helped God in creation as it was explained in their Bible story book rather Bible declared that God created everything by His Word Heb 11:3, Gen 1:2-24.
Who knows which doctrine JWs will come up with later and the Bible warn us that "In order we should no longer be babes, tossed about as by waves and carried hither and thither by every wind of teaching[doctrine] by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in contriving error." Eph 4:14

All the Bible references are from New World Translation.

No comment!

Revelation 3:14 - "....These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, [b] the beginning of the creation of God". KJV

Did Jesus exist before the beginning? All reference I have seen is directed at the beginning? Is he the beginning of his own creation? Do you know one scripture explains the other? (Rev 3:14 explains Col 1:15). I really like to see how you will twist Rev 3:14. All this misunderstanding o scriptures about Jesus and God came because some persons remove God Almighty name from the bible misinterpreting the second Commandment. If that name was included in your copy, as you read the bible from Genesis to revelation- then you will find no reason for the Trinity doctrine. (Was Jesus drunk when he was screaming My God, My God, so many times in the bible).

Misleading thread topic!

Following....

RikoduoSennin:
Revelation 3:14 - "....These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". KJV

Did Jesus exist before the beginning? All reference I have seen is directed at the beginning? Is he the beginning of his own creation? Do you know one scripture explains the other? (Rev 3:14 explains Col 1:15). I really like to see how you will twist Rev 3:14. All this misunderstanding o scriptures about Jesus and God came because some persons remove God Almighty name from the bible misinterpreting the second Commandment. If that name was included in your copy, as you read the bible from Genesis to revelation- then you will find no reason for the Trinity doctrine. (Was Jesus drunk when he was screaming My God, My God, so many times in the bible).

Misleading thread topic!

I would like to ask you ONE question as well:
WHO is the Beginning and the Ending?

Mind you, it was the same Greek word that was used in Revelation 3:14 (NWT 1984) which was also employed in Revelation 22:13 that says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

ar-khay'
From G756 in Strong's Dico; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

Who is this Beginning, The End, The Alpha, The Omega, The First & The Last?

^^^
Very typical, answering a question with another question. Avoid and Evade tactics. You want me to answer you but you can't do the same for me. "Do unto others what you what them to do unto you" But since I am not you, let me indulge you a little;

Figure out/Spot the different between Rev 3:14 and Rev. 22:13 : HINT; one/former is a statement/Phrase- "the beginning of the Creation of God" that is worthy of careful consideration while the other/later refers to a Title- "The Beginning"

Rev 3:14 "The Amen"- is a title (Is Jesus the Amen said in our prayers to [A] Himself [B] God [C] all the above)

"the faithful and true witness" is also title (Who/What is Jesus "faithful" to? Jesus is a true witness of WHat/Whom ?)

"The beginning of the creation of God"- All right, Jesus is "the beginning
", Q: Beginning of What? Look at the Phrase- "of the Creation of God"- some translation uses " of the creation 'by' God". What ever version you use, what comes to your mind when you meditate on this phrase like a detective.

You had no question except question the thread.

Additionally, you are the deceiver and trying your best to mislead others. You tried to sidestep the Greek origin of the word "Beginning" used in those verses.

""The Beginning" in all of those verses were referring to the same Person.

Ordinarily, we see it with humans of limited intelligence with capacity to customize relations/relationships. A good example is Google. When you make a Google search, you get a customized search engine result. How much more the Almighty God Himself?

Why is it so difficult you people to grasp the Omnipresence and Omnipotence of God? He is able to make Himself available to each of the 7 billion people around the world at the SAME time while attending to each person in a very personal way. You mean God is not able to do as He pleases. Be the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit all at the same time?

Do you know the meaning of Messiah? God the Saviour among His people.

I am happy that you recognize all those names as titles of God, why do you struggle to recognize that the Son of God is also a title of God? The Father is a title and the Holy Spirit is also a title. It is the same God expressing Himself in all these forms.

BraveGuy:
I am happy that you recognize all those names as titles of God, why do you struggle to recognize that the Son of God is also a title of God? The Father is a title and the Holy Spirit is also a title. It is the same God expressing Himself in all these forms.

The "son of God" is not a title of God. When will some of you Trinitarians see through the darkness of the Trinity dogma? Many who have studied the history of the Trinity discovered that it only entered the christian church in the 3rd century CE, about 200 years after the death of the last Apostle. The fact that it is still believed by people who associate themselves with Jesus christ today shows that the devil "has blinded the minds of many" - 2cor 4:4

Think about this:

Both God and Jesus used a family reference when describing their relationship. God referred to Jesus as his Son, and Jesus spoke of God as his Father. (Luke 3:21, 22; John 14:28) If you wanted to teach me that two people are equal, what type of family relationship would you use to illustrate the point? You could use siblings, perhaps twins. That comparison seems quite natural. If you and I could come up with this illustration so readily, would not Jesus—the Great Teacher—have thought of the same comparison? Instead, he spoke of God as being his Father. Jesus thus portrayed God as being older and having more authority than he had. Even offering prayers to him addressing him as "his father" and "his God." - john 20:17

[b][b]

BraveGuy:
It is the same God expressing Himself in all these forms.

That's a BIG LIE that you have been told. The fact you believe it is indication that you're either not a reader of the Bible or you're in a spiritual darkness sooo thick that it can only be cut with a chain saw.

Jesus showed that he was separate from God. Jesus once said to opposers who challenged his authority: "The witness of two men is true. I am one who bears witness about myself, and the father who sent me bears witness about me" - John 8:17, 18. Jesus must be separate from his father. How else could they be viewed as two witnesses?

This comment would have been pure madness on the part of Jesus if he was God himself. Jesus petitioned: "father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you. This means eternal life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."- John 17:1,3

Compare these two verses:
John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

John 16:23 "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you."

NWT
"In that day you will ask me no question at all. Most truly I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything,+ he will give it to you in my name."

WHO WILL DO what you ask for?

BraveGuy:
You had no question except question the thread.

Additionally, you are the deceiver and trying your best to mislead others. You tried to sidestep the Greek origin of the word "Beginning" used in those verses.

I don't think my initial question were that hard that you did not fathom it. Please read "carefully". The topic of the Thread is false and misleading. The bible have been translated to English for easy understanding-every idea contained has been expressed, why bother with the original Greek now.

BraveGuy:

"The Beginning" in all of those verses were referring to the same Person.

In Rev 3:14- look at the phrase not just the title "the beginning".

Q: According to that Scripture and its CONTEXT, Jesus "the beginning" is the beginning of WHAT?

A: The beginning OF THE CREATION OF [BY] GOD. True or False. If True, What idea does the capitalised section convey. NB: I am not arguing the identity of the one called "the beginning" but I am asking why is he called such in the first place.

BraveGuy:

Why is it so difficult you people to grasp the Omnipresence and Omnipotence of God? He is able to make Himself available to each of the 7 billion people around the world at the SAME time while attending to each person in a very personal way. You mean God is not able to do as He pleases. Be the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit all at the same time?

Pure lies and rubbish. When has any man seen God Almighty(The Father), he is not omnipresent - since he only reside in Heaven. Jehovah/The Father has never left his throne in Heaven vacant. Human's made in God's image aren't everywhere neither is Jehovah whom Jesus said he is going to meet WHERE?- in Heaven, nor Jesus who left WHERE? To go WHERE?- Heaven to Earth then back to Heaven. The Fact that the holy spirit can be in any place at once tells you something about its Nature.

Do not be deceived God is not Noob Saibot or Naruto which can split himself in clones. Why would that be necessary when he himself could do everything. John 3:16 did not say God sent himself but he sent his "only begotten son"- why not reserch the original greek of that verse. So you are implying Jesus lied when he said "No man has seen God at anytime" or Men have slapped God. Certainly no my God.

Jesus himself said we share the same God with him, The Father said he has No God before him.

BraveGuy:

Do you know the meaning of Messiah? God the Saviour among His people.

What kind of Question and Logic is this? Do you know the Meaning of Emmanuel and Jesus? Well, thousands of People bear the name Emmanuel and a number of others bear the name Jesus, so does that mean they are God among us too today?

A name is just a Name. Imagine the name Jesus/Yehoshua is a derivative of Almighty God's name Jehovah/Yahweh, infact many names are derived from God's name but God's name is not derived from any other name.

@BIBLESPEAKS and RIKKODUSEINN, JMAN05 and many others on this forum have sweated, done all they could and tried to clear this buh many esp mr. emusan and yooguyz just don't want to run a check on their beliefs. d last time i was involved in a thread on this topic, i challenged all trinitarians on here to dare to interprete 1cor 15:24-28 buh none could. i still i'm waiting for a trinitarian to interprete, for i only see people adopting d ostrich style here. will hang around and see who'll take d podium sha

Peace

edogho:
@BIBLESPEAKS and RIKKODUSEINN, JMAN05 and many others on this forum have sweated, done all they could and tried to clear this buh many esp mr. emusan and yooguyz just don't want to run a check on their beliefs. d last time i was involved in a thread on this topic, i challenged all trinitarians on here to dare to interprete 1cor 15:24-28 buh none could. i still i'm waiting for a trinitarian to interprete, for i only see people adopting d ostrich style here. will hang around and see who'll take d podium sha

Peace

No matter what you do to help people out of the dark, some wont be teachable. they will rather choose to die in the dark than embrace change.

When you keep talking to let them see and they refuse, its good to let them be.

Let Jesus create everything including there "Holy Ghost".

edogho:
@BIBLESPEAKS and RIKKODUSEINN, JMAN05 and many others on this forum have sweated, done all they could and tried to clear this buh many esp mr. emusan and yooguyz just don't want to run a check on their beliefs. d last time i was involved in a thread on this topic, i challenged all trinitarians on here to dare to interprete 1cor 15:24-28 buh none could. i still i'm waiting for a trinitarian to interprete, for i only see people adopting d ostrich style here. will hang around and see who'll take d podium sha

Peace

You are being untruthful, you never challenged Mr yooguyz on trinity, if anything, you always avoid his threads. I think you are the one adopting the ostrich style here.
If its true that others are not honouring your invitation, that is because Witnesses always invents straws and attack it when discussing trinity.

If Almighty God is All powerful: Jesus isn't, he said so himself- Matt 20:23, Matt 26:39,42,53- He continue to rely on his Father.<<John 14:28-"...for my father is GREATER than I".--in what way is the Father greater, if I may ask? Is that verse saying they are both greater than/equal to?

If Almighty God is All knowing: Jesus isn't, he said so himself- Matthew 24:36-" but of that day and hour knoweth no man, not the angels of heaven, but MY FATHER ONLY".

What did Jesus say in Mark 10:18//Matt 19:17-" Why calleth thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God...."[KJV]

What did we understand from that verse:
Jesus refuse[didn't accept] to be called "Good". He said the only on to be rightly called "Good" is God. Inference/Logic dictates he is not Almighty God, since he just refuse the title "Good".

The early christians believe Jesus have same God as them eg: 1 cor 6:14, Eph 1:17, Rev 1:1

.** Some wish to remove verses like these from the bible**


How about Reading the entire 4 Gospels,or the entire 66 books.

BraveGuy:


Compare these two verses:
John 14:14 "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."

John 16:23 "And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you."

NWT
"In that day you will ask me no question at all. Most truly I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything,+ he will give it to you in my name."

WHO WILL DO what you ask for?

I am still waiting for the answer to these questions....

Who is being described here?
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/9/
6 For a child has been born to us,+
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor,+ Mighty God,+ Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership*
And to peace, there will be no end,+
On the throne of David+ and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly+ and to sustain it
Through justice+ and righteousness,+
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 NWT)
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/9/

Who Is That Again?

Its not a must u go to Heaven now abi? U dis Jw denying ur Master Jesus Christ since. If u wish to go to hell u can go na.

paulGrundy:


You are being untruthful, you never challenged Mr yooguyz on trinity, if anything, you always avoid his threads. I think you are the one adopting the ostrich style here.
If its true that others are not honouring your invitation, that is because Witnesses always invents straws and attack it when discussing trinity.

how i'm i not being truthful? i never said i specifical asked mr Yooguys to interprete that bible verses. i said trinitarians bro. i wasn't even d one that first quoted that scripture, mr.Trogunn did, mr.Emusan can testify to that, Witnesses invent straw u say, buh i want to see a trinitarian interprete that verse else for anything u will b d ones inventing and stickin to ur own straw. as a trinitarian, might u want to help us interprete 1cor 15:24-28? remember, ppl are watching, incase u don't want to answer, they'll know why u didn't answer.

edogho:
@BIBLESPEAKS and RIKKODUSEINN, JMAN05 and many others on this forum have sweated, done all they could and tried to clear this buh many esp mr. emusan and yooguyz just don't want to run a check on their beliefs. d last time i was involved in a thread on this topic, i challenged all trinitarians on here to dare to interprete 1cor 15:24-28 buh none could. i still i'm waiting for a trinitarian to interprete, for i only see people adopting d ostrich style here. will hang around and see who'll take d podium sha

Peace

Always make your statement clear because you're in a public forum so that the readers can compare each statement.

I'll first ask you, what do you think 1 Corin 15:24-28 go against on TRINITY?

Let me help you;
Did it say Jesus is not God or Jesus was created or Jesus is inferior to God (If this is your posit I don't even need to reply you)?

At the end everything must go in line with the Op.


Thanks!

Emusan:



Always make your statement clear because you're in a public forum so that the readers can compare each statement.

I'll first ask you, what do you think 1 Corin 15:24-28 go against on TRINITY?

Let me help you;
Did it say Jesus is not God or Jesus was created or Jesus is inferior to God (If this is your posit I don't even need to reply you)?

At the end everything must go in line with the Op.


Thanks!

thank u, d bolded is exactly mi point, if u understand or think otherwise, why would u not want to reply me ? just like u rightly stated, we're on a public forum and there'll be readers. so, what say u bro?

BraveGuy:
Who is being described here?
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/9/
6 For a child has been born to us,+
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership* will rest on his shoulder.+
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor,+ Mighty God,+ Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership*
And to peace, there will be no end,+
On the throne of David+ and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly+ and to sustain it
Through justice+ and righteousness,+
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 NWT)
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/9/

Who Is That Again?

Hey, I thought there are JWs on this forum who would like to face the challenge that they have believed in a LIE by denouncing Jesus as God and acknowledging Him as such.

After pointing some verses in your own Bible, don't you think it's time to change?

I plead with you to start questioning what you have been taught over the years. OBEY John 5:39. Don't even follow all these prosperity preachers or their churches, just obey John 5:39 and your life will never be the same!

edogho:
thank u, d bolded is exactly mi point, if u understand or think otherwise, why would u not want to reply me ? just like u rightly stated, we're on a public forum and there'll be readers. so, what say u bro?

So where in those verses that say Jesus is not God?

Just answer by verse 24 or 25 and quote it, you don't need to post long text (just citation of the verse) because I need fact before I'll answer you.

I won't reply it because Trinitarians believe that The Father is greater that The Son in POSITION.

BraveGuy:


Hey, I thought there are JWs on this forum who would like to face the challenge that they have believed in a LIE by denouncing Jesus as God and acknowledging Him as such.

After pointing some verses in your own Bible, don't you think it's time to change?

I plead with you to start questioning what you have been taught over the years. OBEY John 5:39. Don't even follow all these prosperity preachers or their churches, just obey John 5:39 and your life will never be the same!

Because you are raising an issue that has been tackled up to the umpteenth time, your post becomes hilarious.

the word "god" has never being stated by the witnesses as applying to God Almighty alone. Humans, Angels can be given that name. the greek word for "god" means a mighty one.

Angels are called "elohim"(God) at Ps 8:6.

Jesus himself acknowledged that humans were called "theos"(god) in the bible. john 10:34.

So how much more Jesus who has a higher privileges?

Read Gen 17:1

God said that He is the God ALMIGHTY.

a. tell me, what is the difference between a Mighty God and an Almighty God?

b. Who has greater power?

Jesus is called the eternal father cos he is the second Adam thru whom we gain everlasting life.

We do not reject that Jesus came from God as the hebrew scriptures (OT) say. john 5:39, but do you really believe what Jesus believe? for eg:

We read: John 20:17

[NIV] John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Do you believe these words of Jesus?

a. Are you equal to your God?

b. Are you equal to your father atleast in age?

If you view the Almighty as your God, whom you are not equal to, Jesus views Him the same way.

I hope you clearly agree with the trust of that Jesus' statement?

JMAN05:

Because you are raising an issue that has been tackled up to the umpteenth time, your post becomes hilarious.
the word "god" has never being stated by the witnesses as applying to God Almighty alone. Humans, Angels can be given that name. the greek word for "god" means a mighty one.
Angels are called "elohim"(God) at Ps 8:6.
Jesus himself acknowledged that humans were called "theos"(god) in the bible. john 10:34.
So how much more Jesus who has a higher privileges?
Read Gen 17:1
God said that He is the God ALMIGHTY.
a. tell me, what is the difference between a Mighty God and an Almighty God?
b. Who has greater power?
Jesus is called the eternal father cos he is the second Adam thru whom we gain everlasting life.
We do not reject that Jesus came from God as the hebrew scriptures (OT) say. john 5:39, but do you really believe what Jesus believe? for eg:
We read: John 20:17
[NIV] John 20:17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Do you believe these words of Jesus?
a. Are you equal to your God?
b. Are you equal to your father atleast in age?
If you view the Almighty as your God, whom you are not equal to, Jesus views Him the same way.
I hope you clearly agree with the trust of that Jesus' statement?

Am I surprised that you would have consulted your superiors with twisted minds - who twist Scriptures for a living? NO!

According to your twisted lies, Eternal Father becomes what?

Perhaps, you failed to read from YOUR NWT, Revelation 1:8 where Jesus declared:
8 “I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”*+ says Jehovah* God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”+

OR you have failed to read in your NWT:
Isaiah 44 vs 6
6 This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel+ and his Repurchaser,+ Jehovah of armies:
‘I am the first and I am the last.+
There is no God but me.+

I would like to ask you MORE questions as well:
WHO is the Beginning and the Ending?

Mind you, it was the same Greek word that was used in Revelation 3:14 (NWT 1984) which was also employed in Revelation 22:13 that says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

ar-khay'
From G756 in Strong's Dico; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

Who is this Beginning, The End, The Alpha, The Omega, The First & The Last?
Who claimed to be the Almighty here again?
Who is the One Coming - The Father or Jesus Christ?

Emusan:



So where in those verses that say Jesus is not God?

Just answer by verse 24 or 25 and quote it, you don't need to post long text (just citation of the verse) because I need fact before I'll answer you.

I won't reply it because Trinitarians believe that The Father is greater that The Son in POSITION.

i'm shocked @ d bolded. i wasn't always like this bro, was once a trinitarian too and d bolded isn't what i was taught. d antanasian creed does not support what u're saying. it posits that d father, d son and d holy spirit are one in position, power and essence and that's what i don't agree. maybe u've got another version of trinity sha.

1cor 15:27,28 clearly shows that d Son and Father distinct and not d same person. i don't see how a person would be subject to himself after he's been an exception. savvy? i will quote exactly as it is in d bible, when i get mi bible. Goodmorning anyways...

BraveGuy:


Am I surprised that you would have consulted your superiors with twisted minds - who twist Scriptures for a living? NO!

According to your twisted lies, Eternal Father becomes what?

Perhaps, you failed to read from YOUR NWT, Revelation 1:8 where Jesus declared:
8 “I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,”*+ says Jehovah* God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”+

OR you have failed to read in your NWT:
Isaiah 44 vs 6
6 This is what Jehovah says,
The King of Israel+ and his Repurchaser,+ Jehovah of armies:
‘I am the first and I am the last.+
There is no God but me.+

I would like to ask you MORE questions as well:
WHO is the Beginning and the Ending?

Mind you, it was the same Greek word that was used in Revelation 3:14 (NWT 1984) which was also employed in Revelation 22:13 that says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last."

ar-khay'
From G756 in Strong's Dico; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

Who is this Beginning, The End, The Alpha, The Omega, The First & The Last?
Who claimed to be the Almighty here again?
Who is the One Coming - The Father or Jesus Christ?

Can you pls repond to all my posts. Dont select the ones you like and live the rest.

Your eternal father called someone else his Father. But the one he calls a Father does not have a Father. Do you get the point?

I told you the meaning of his being called eternal father. The prophesy of Isaiah was about a son.

That Isaiah is a prophesy that fulfilled many decades after it was foretold.

The prophesy said, "he will be called... eternal father".

Did you notice that he "will" be called, not that he has this title from inception. He achieved the force of this title by making a way for eternal life through his death. He was not the "eternal father" in the infinite past. But his Father has been a Father for all eternity because he is the Oldest personage in the Universe. Jesus is not.

Thus, his being called "eternal father" does not make him as old as his own Father, whom he prays to and calls on when in sorrow. Matt 6:9.

When you respond to all my earlier post, and tell me whether you are equal to your God, then those points you presented ^^ wont be a puzzle for the scripture to inteprete itself there. trust me on that. So can you now respond?

No, JMAN05..... You are the one cherry picking and desperately trying to twist Scriptures. I noticed that you avoided answering any of my questions about .... Who is this Beginning, The End, The Alpha, The Omega, The First & The Last?
Who claimed to be the Almighty in the Book of Revelation?
Who is the One Coming - The Father or Jesus Christ?

To be honest with you (and your JW reading this thread), I thought showing a few scriptures from your own TWISTED NWT translation, which you and I knows was not truly translated from any original, but a modern English distortion of the KJV, would help you rethink your values (and I hope it has been helpful to some JWs), however, you are bent on your house that is built in the sand. When the storm comes, we'll see who will survive it; it is not far away anymore!

I used to debate atheists and false teachers, but seasons have changed for me and don't have such luxury of time anymore, and I have resolved to let people who refuse to accept or believe the truth remain as THEY CHOOSE to be, very very soon, they Day will tell. It won't be long any longer.

The MKJV reads:
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and makes a lie.
Rev 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let the one hearing say, Come! And let the one who is thirsty come. And he willing, let him take of the Water of Life freely.
Rev 22:18 For I testify together to everyone who hears the Words of the prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add on him the plagues that have been written in this Book.
Rev 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the Words of the Book of this prophecy, God will take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which have been written in this Book.

This is my last response to you.

[size=14pt]AGAIN, I say OBEY John 5:39[/size]

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
John 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
John 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
John 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
John 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
John 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
John 9:10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
John 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
John 9:12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
John 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
John 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
John 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
John 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
John 9:17 They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
John 9:18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
John 9:19 And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
John 9:20 His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
John 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
John 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
John 9:24 Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
John 9:25 He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
John 9:26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
John 9:27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?

Even when your EYES have beheld the truth of God, like the Jews, will refuse to humbly acknowledge the Truth of God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (KJV)

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. (NWT)

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
See? JW had just created a "god"

God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead and they are equal and agree in everything. Just like a Senate committee of three persons, one is made a chairman. They are all senators having equal rights but the chairman still preside over the committee.

I can see where your problem lies.

edogho:
i'm shocked @ d bolded. i wasn't always like this bro, was once a trinitarian too and d bolded isn't what i was taught. d antanasian creed does not support what u're saying. it posits that d father, d son and d holy spirit are one in position, power and essence and that's what i don't agree. maybe u've got another version of trinity sha.



1cor 15:27,28 clearly shows that d Son and Father distinct and not d same person. i don't see how a person would be subject to himself after he's been an exception. savvy? i will quote exactly as it is in d bible, when i get mi bible. Goodmorning anyways...

I must confess that not All Trinitarians can fully explain TRINITY in details this might be your case while believe in Trinity then.

But your post shows how you've been misunderstood the teaching of Trinity.

1) FIRST THING Trinitarians believe is the DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE THREE PERSONS of the Trinity. The Father is not The Son and The Holy Spirit likewise the Son is not the Father and The Holy Spirit and likewise The Holy Spirit is not the Son and the Father. This is your first misunderstanding about TRINITY.

2) What Trinitarian most adhere to is THE NATURE AND PERSON of God NOT THE POSITION because they believe that The Father is not begotten (generated), created & proceeded, but The Son is begotten (generated) by The Father and The Son is not created and proceeded and The Holy Spirit is proceeded from The Father and The Son but is not created. This shows another error from you about TRINITY.

I know JWs always twist or misquote the word of the earlier founder of the TRINITY to deceive people BUT IF YOU TRULY WANT TO BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF AND TO KNOW WHAT TRINITY IS ALL ABOUT AND THE VIEW OF THOSE WHO PROPOSED THE THEORY OF Trinity kindly read this link please DON'T be in haste while reading it JUST because YOU WANT TO REPLY ME, take your TIME to read it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

One major reason I want you to read that LINK is to prove my above TWO STATEMENTS wrong, like I said earlier the readers can judge for themselves by comparing the POINT you raised with MINE.

Thus far, if my posit is right then 1 Corin 15:24-28 didn't prove TRINITY wrong.



Shalom!