I have a problem with the new breed of preachers. Those who own big cars, palatial homes, designer clothes and ste-of-the art communications systems.

When next you go to these Churches, look at who is the most prosperous, with a big tummy and expensive things, then compare that person with the rest. It will be easy to know who is the Pastor.

Jesus never had these things, and the best transport mode he used was a donkey. And remember what he said to the rich man? He told the rich man to go and sell everything and give to the poor and then follow Jesus, as that was the only way he could go to heaven.

And Jesus said, it was easy for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, that for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.

I am afraid many people join religion for the money.

Religion cant be a buz, if you say some churches are run as a buz, yeah, however, they are still doing things that God has called them to do.
You have a prob with a pastor that is prosperous, so you would rather have a pastor that will come to you ad borrow 20Naira to buy gari and there are holes underneath his shoes?
My guy, only a fool will follow a man with no evidence.

for xtians, it is.

prosperous pastor? no be offering tithes e take enrich himself, abegi, dey r all d same.

to be a pastor is d easisest way to riches in nija. we can argure from now till end time, its d fact

$$Rhino:

Religion can't be a buz, if you say some churches are run as a buz, yeah, however, they are still doing things that God has called them to do.
You have a prob with a pastor that is prosperous, so you would rather have a pastor that will come to you ad borrow 20Naira to buy gari and there are holes underneath his shoes?
My guy, only a fool will follow a man with no evidence.

nothing wrong with a preacher having the finer things in life, having a car(a), send kids to good schools etc. but there ought to be a reasonable limit, compared with how well your church members are doing. If you have 3 cars on a pastor's salary and some of your congregation cant eat 3 square meals, why not sell one car and see how you can help

javalove:

for xtians, it is.

prosperous pastor? no be offering tithes e take enrich himself, abegi, dey r all d same.

to be a pastor is d easisest way to riches in nija. we can argure from now till end time, its d fact

and out of same tithes and offering, they will pay staff and all expenses, or when u go to chuch, dont u see what is done with the money?
anyhow,  i cant comment on church in nigeria, however, in da western world, they are being audited yearly and cant just spend anyhow, this is not to say that some of them are not finding ways to steal the money, but let me leave judgement to God, cos it is not what they do with the money that matters, but for me to obey what God said about paying my tithes and not coming into his house empty handed, so if someone decide to steal the money, that is btw the pastor and God.

birdman:

nothing wrong with a preacher having the finer things in life, having a car(a), send kids to good schools etc. but there ought to be a reasonable limit, compared with how well your church members are doing. If you have 3 cars on a pastor's salary and some of your congregation can't eat 3 square meals, why not sell one car and see how you can help

i totally agree with you, but will depends on how big the church is as well, cos in a very big church, will be so hard for the pasttor to even know who has food to eat and who doesnt, so in smaller groups, such concerns and needs shd be discussed, i totally agree with you that the need of the member shd be met as well.
However, in some country, the law has been made in such a way that church cant use the money to help the member, cos that is part of the laws that governs the non-profitable organizations, which church is categorized under.

@poster
If you don't know that religion is big business, then you're missing an important point. Right from the medival ages when priest ruled principalities, to the time bishops ruled dioceases like states, to today when the catholic ranks above Coca Cola and IBM in terms of assets; it should have been obvious that religion is indeed very big business. You may or may not see all these depending on where you seat in church, mosque, or temple.

Presonal Opinion . It may be nor nt be depending on what an individual or an organisation has in mind in establishing it .

Seun hates christianity sha; all these kind of threads designed to attack always find their way to the front page. Maybe y'all should even be more specific :"is christianity a business"?. Or no, better still, "is pentecosalism _{is that a word}? a business"?


@topic, whatever. . . it is for some and opening threads like this is not likely to change that.

Is there any remedy for the love of money, religion or no religion?

Religion is a set of rules and guidelines to live your life in a way that is positive and rewarding. Religion provides faith, something intangible that can be called on when times are tough or when things happen that are out of our control. Religion for many people is a rock providing support and a map to follow, a means to find clarity and purpose amongst confusion and despondency.

Business provides an entrepreneur with purpose. When times are tough faith keeps an entrepreneur working long after other people, those that could be said to possess less faith, would have given up. While blind faith is not a good thing, certainly strong faith and courage of conviction are vital for any business person to carry on despite whatever obstacles are thrown

Business provides an entrepreneur with meaning. An enlightened entrepreneur works towards building something that enhances many people’s lives, not just lines his or her own pockets. By creating a business that employs people, provides helpful products or services and creates prosperity for many, the sum effect is an expansion of positivity. While this wonderfully positive picture isn’t always the case in our corporate environment I choose to have faith in the humane part of each entrepreneur and will admire only those that give back more than they take out.

Studies have shown that a man would spend on 4 things
Food education pleasure and religion.
Churches have found a way to take two out of the four and its frightening you pay all the 'taxes' in church for fear of losing your spiritual favours and then you have to send your children to these expensive schools.
If no one would believe a pastor who is just a carpenters son and who died on the cross for our sins please somebody tell me what was flashy about that, else we would have not been christians today because Our saviour did not pull an escalade or have silly looking hair cuts or come up with numerous ways to scheme people who came for a spiritual with their creator nor did he move around with body guards or own a mansion. If you ask me I am sure most pastors dream would be to collect offering and tithes from the multitude christ fed.

with whats going on now, i dare say its a multi million naira business

I wonder first of all why threads like this always make the front page. Are they at the discretion of the "succesful founder" of nairaland?

Anyway, for anybody to judge Churches or pastors, then you need to realy differentiate between churches that are being run as a business venture , or those that are divine mandates being set up by God. To the average orthodox christian, pentecostalism and anytg it represents is bad. However, have you tried to find out if some things you see in some of these churches are the same elsewhere? I personally know for instance that at least two of the men of God leading the two largest pentecostal churches in Nigeria do not take salaries. This is a STATEMENT OF TRUTH AND FACT. As such, where does the issue of "eating" tithes and offerings come in? What is wrong in driving good cars when te cars are got as gifts? Mind you, some of these men of God get car gifts of as much as 20 or more brand new cars in a month, yet they give out almost everything out, either to those in need or to the church. I have it on first hand informatin of the number of scholarships that some of our men of God give to indigent pupils. But, it is only an empty barrel that will come out and start boasting about what he is doing.

So, please let us try and watch what we say when we attack other people's belief because you cant know about an issue unless you really take time to study and understand it. If pastors are all thieves, why do u see learned and eminent persons going to those churches? Go to any parish of RCCG in v/i or ikoyi and you will be shocked at the calibre of people in such gatherings. Or go to the redemption camp forthe Holy Ghost serice and you will be amazed at the kind of people that go thru harrowing traffic just to get to the camp. Are these people fools?
Please enoughof all these religious posts

@poster:

blame the fools who send their money to the false preachers

$$Rhino:

Religion can't be a buz, if you say some churches are run as a buz, yeah, however, they are still doing things that God has called them to do.

What did God "call them to do"? build gigantic structures in the name of God, build universities, turn their "calling" to vast real estate, ride corporate jets and shout hallelujah?

$$Rhino:

You have a prob with a pastor that is prosperous, so you would rather have a pastor that will come to you ad borrow 20Naira to buy gari and there are holes underneath his shoes?
My guy, only a fool will follow a man with no evidence.

Funny enough is what the bible says about these things - 1 Corinthians 1:27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Peter and John were but fishermen with no education . . . infact they boldly said - Acts 3:6Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

Where all Peter's converts fools following a man with no "evidence"? Is money now "evidence" of God's blessing? How indeed are the people decieved.

lets consider the time difference between that time and now.you think $$$ isnt important in ministry, then tell that tto kreflodollar

@ topic

it is now. . .

for instance the stupid capitalisation on 08/08/08. . . it is all getting cosmic and frankly quite freaky

I think it has actually become a big business. I think very soon a revival will come that will reshape the whole concept.
As it is now, it's highly ridiculous and shamefull.

Karl Marx said:

Religons are opium for the peole. They are selling hope,

Ask yourself if this could be true, sure the world would be a better place if everybody do and act likewise they are claiming to do on sundays / fridays.

All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician and ridiculous to the philosopher. Lucretius (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lucretius/)

Oh yeah big business for the greedy Satanic inspired religious leaders

Nowadays, self acclaimed "men of God" hob-nob around in private jets, power suits, flashy cars, big mansions, expensive holidays, flashy jewellries e.t.c.

Where did they get the money? Nah i wont be fooled to believe it is what they earn that funds all this lavish lifestyles

They are plenty outhere and some of us know what the deal is!

Cayon:

@poster:

blame the fools who send their money to the false preachers

And equally blame the FALSE PREACHERS that gladly accept it!

Yes Religion become a business and Business become a Religion do you agree on that. Mind is just a juxtapose we’re seeing more people are greedy of wealth, ambitious, and politically expose to attract more big fish in their agenda, to enriches themselves is the easies way. The only recommended solution for that is Becoming Cautious among you people whom you adore your idols Pastor/Priest and become preys to their niche. Therefore, wake up Christianity think for tomorrow their still hope for you for voicing youre sentiment in a public not hiding it, is a grievous sin.

We've gotten it all so wrong in naija, I mean the religion of a thing or specifically, christianity. It's the rich people in the church that are respected and prayed for by most pastors of our time. This is because of the gains associated with it. My own opinion if u ask me is to serve God in your heart truly and outwardly also and not just depend on church (whateva name it is called).
Pls drop a line on some similar topics in the forum on
http://www.christspeaks.org
http://www.christspeaks.org/boards/
Agape

Religion,a business? only God can tell the truth ooo, you are not gullible to swallow they say you a doubting Thomas and you are playing with Haven, only God.

sherry lo:

Religion,a business? only God can tell the truth ooo, you are not gullible to swallow they say you a doubting Thomas and you are playing with Haven, only God.

Wetin u mean by only God can tell. Open your eyes and see how many new churches are springing up everyday and the expensive rides they drive to church. What are they doing to help thier poor who eat only twice a day and can't afford to send thier children to school?

(

(

"(

With the scam going on about tithes and gradually transforming to a call for seed sowing as the tithe scam is unravelling, it is obvious why more selfish, greedy people are claiming to (mis)represent God to the gullible sheeple. See this for example:

It seems you have not realised the scam being practised by those MoGs requesting Christians to pay tithes. Maybe you need to read this:

As a sequel to my previous posts about the the mis-information being preached in our churches about tithesI hereby present a court scenario in which the good pastor stands before the Great Judge of all the earth, the Lord Jesus Christ, on this subject. I came across this post when i checked on a link supplied by one of the contributors to a previous thread. Enjoy the conversation:

Jesus: Enoch, you have been charged with multiple counts of extortion. Your crime spree covers 20 years and thousands of victims. You have defrauded people out of their money with fear and manipulation, telling them they had to tithe 10% of their income to your church and that God would bless them if they did. You also told them that if they didn’t tithe they would go to hell. How do you plead?

Pastor Enoch: I plead not guilty, sir. I have done nothing wrong. I have only preached what the Bible says. In the Bible Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and God blessed him for his faithful giving. The Bible even says he was rich in silver and gold.

Jesus: Is it not true, Enoch, that in Genesis chapter 13 verse 2 the Bible says Abraham was rich with livestock, silver and gold?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, you are exactly right, that’s what I just told you.

Jesus: Ok, we read about Abraham being a rich man in chapter 13. But it is not until Genesis chapter 14 that we read about Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek. So Abraham was already a rich man before he tithed to Melchizedek, wasn’t he?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose you are right.

Jesus: So his riches were not the result of his tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Enoch, you also say God blessed him for his faithful giving. How many times is it recorded that Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, just once.

Jesus: So the Bible never said that he gave week after week?

Pastor Enoch: No it does not.

Jesus: Where did Abraham get the things that he gave to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: Well, the Bible says it was from the plunders of war?

Jesus: So you are telling me that he gave from the plunders of war?

Pastor Enoch: Yes that’s what the Bible says.

Jesus: So he basically took things that were not really his in the first place and gave them as the tithe?

Pastor Enoch: That is what the scripture seems to indicate.

Jesus: Is it recorded that he ever took anything from his own possessions and tithed them to Melchizedek or anyone else?

Pastor Enoch: I guess not

Jesus: You guess not! You pastor one of the largest denominations and you are only guessing? Is it or is it not written that he ever gave any of his own possessions as a tithe to anyone?

Pastor Enoch: No; it is not written anywhere that I have seen.

Jesus: Is it recorded as to what exactly Abraham did give Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: I believe it says plunder?

Jesus: So plunder could be any number of things?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, I suppose

Judge: It could have been food, cattle, sheep, the people’s possessions or any number of things. It does not say it was all money correct?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. You are correct; it does not say just money.

Jesus: As a matter of fact, money is never mentioned in that account at all; is that correct, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir; money is never mentioned; just goods and food and people.

Jesus: So there is no way you can say with any certainty that Abraham in fact gave Melchizedek any money at all?

Pastor Enoch: That is right.

Jesus: I only have one last question for you, Enoch. Did God command Abraham to give this plunder as tithe to Melchizedek?

Pastor Enoch: No; it appears that he did this voluntarily.

Jesus: So are you trying to tell me that because of this voluntary, one time gift by Abraham, that may not have even consisted of money, all Christians everywhere are obligated to bring 10% of their weekly paycheck to a local church?

Jesus: Considering all the evidence, I would say you are beyond any shadow of a doubt guilty of deliberately trying to make the scriptures says things they have not said for financial gain.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, I can see how foolish I was to try and use the story of Melchizedeck to try and get the people to tithe money. But there are many other verses that will support my belief on tithing. Jacob said he would give God 10% of everything. I think we should follow his example.

Jesus: Let’s see what Jacob said. Please read the verse you are talking about for me, Enoch.

Pastor Enoch: In Genesis chapter 28, starting at verse 20 it says, ‘Jacob vowed a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and clothing to put on, so that I come again to my father’s house in peace, and Yahweh will be my God, then this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, will be God’s house. Of all that you will give me I will surely give the tenth to you.”‘

Jesus: You said people should follow Jacobs’s example, is that right, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; that is right. He vowed to give a tenth and we should too.

Jesus: Let me point out one thing for you, Enoch. Jacob said he would Give God a tenth, ONLY if He blessed him first. So as you said previously, we should follow Jacob’s example and tell God that we will only give him a tenth if he blesses us first. Is that right?

Pastor Enoch: That is not what I meant.

Jesus: What did you mean then?

Pastor Enoch: That we should give God a tenth also.

Jesus: There you go again, trying to make the scripture say what you want it to say for your benefit. I would also like you to tell me the scriptures that say that Jacob kept his vow with God. I would also like to know where he gave the tenth to because there was no temple or levites to give it to at that time.

Pastor Enoch: I can not think of any scriptures that say where or if he ever tithed after his vow.

Jesus: It is obvious that Jacob made a voluntary and conditional vow to God. This in no way can be used as a reason to demand others to bring their income to you or any other place.

Pastor Enoch: I do have a few more scriptures that I believe will show that we are supposed to tithe.

Jesus: So far, all you have done is taken scripture and misapplied it to your beliefs and for your gain. But in order to be fair to you I will allow you to present more evidence.

Pastor Enoch: In the book of Malachi chapter 3 starting at verse 8 it says, “Will a man rob God? yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, In what have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now with this, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” So you see sir, we are commanded to bring the tithes into the storehouse or God will curse us.

Jesus: Answer me this, Enoch, were you aware that I never required anyone to tithe money?

Pastor Enoch: No I didn’t know that.

Jesus: The tithe spoken of here was always edible products never money.

Pastor Enoch: Sir, that is because they didn’t have money at the time so God had them tithe food instead.

Jesus: Not true, money is first mentioned in Genesis - and Malachi was written hundreds of years later. God had them bring food in so that the levites, the fatherless and widows may eat and be satisfied. The tithe was used mainly to take care of people. Also notice it says in the verse you quoted, that there may be food in my house. How do you completely overlook the word food in those verses?

Pastor Enoch: I don’t know

Jesus: I also want you to know that these verses speak to people under the Old Testament law. As you may or may not know, I fulfilled the law while I was on earth. The Law is no longer binding. Tithing was part of that law that has been abolished.

Jesus: And once again, you have tried to completely take a scripture out of context and apply it to others for your benefit. Can you give me a single scripture where God changed the tithe from food to money?

Pastor Enoch: I do not know of any.

Jesus: So if God never changed it from food to money who did?

Pastor Enoch: Man must have.

Jesus: So far all you have done, Enoch, is take Old Testament scriptures out of context and try to apply it to believers under the New Covenant. Is this all the proof you have?

Pastor Enoch: I do have a New Testament scripture that will show that You told us to tithe.

Jesus: Ok let me hear it.

Pastor Enoch: You said in Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith. But you ought to have done these, and not to have left the other undone.” Surely, You were saying there that we should be tithing.

Jesus: Let me ask you a question, who was I talking to?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says the scribes and Pharisees.

Jesus: Are you and your members scribes or Pharisees?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; God forbid!.

Jesus: I also said in that passage, “You have left undone the weightier matters of the law“. Are we under the law, Enoch?

Pastor Enoch: No.

Jesus: Why not?

Pastor Enoch: Because You fulfilled it, and it passed away.

Jesus: When did I fulfill the law?

Pastor Enoch: When You were crucified.

Jesus: So the law was still in effect until My death?

Pastor Enoch: That is correct sir.

Jesus: I think you know where I am going with this; don’t you?

Pastor Enoch: Yes; sir. Since You had not yet been crucified and the law was still binding, the Pharisees were required to tithe because it was part of the law. Once the law ended, tithing ended also.

Jesus: I want you to take a look at that verse again. Also tell me, what were they tithing?

Pastor Enoch: The scripture says it was mint, dill and cumin.

Jesus: Was money mentioned there?

Pastor Enoch: No sir; it was not.

Jesus: Once again it was edible products that they were tithing, not money. Do you have anything else you would like to say?

Pastor Enoch: If people only tithed edible products like the scripture says, then how would the church survive? We had to build that million-seater cathedral to accomodate the people who come for Holy Ghost Festival yearly, the salaries of other pastors have to be paid. So many other things. We depend on the money from the people.

Jesus: The need does not justify the means. In other words, just because you have all these debts does not give you the right to twist and manipulate scripture and cause people to give under fear of being cursed by God to meet your needs. Not to mention that all those items you listed are problems you created for yourelves. They are not My agenda.

Jesus: Now to the more greivous consequences of your enforcing the tithe on believer. What did Paul write in Galatians 5:4 about attempting to follow the Law?

Pastor Enoch: That if they obeyed any part of the old Jewish law, including the law of circumcision, in order to be right (justified) with God, they have fallen from grace, or lost their salvation.

Jesus: Do you admit that like circumcision, tithing was part of the law?

Pastor Enoch: Yes, sir.

Jesus: Now if obeying the law of circumcision would cause gentile Christians of Paul’s day to “fall from grace”, one would have to conclude that obeying another old law; “The law of tithing” would have the same results on them today; that is to say, it will cause them to fall away from the grace of God.

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I suppose so.

Jesus: In other words, you are admitting that your teaching the tithe is actually sending people down the road to hell?

Pastor Enoch: That was not what I intended, sir.

Jesus: Nevertheless, that is the result of your actions - your ministry. How many of those one billion members (not counting the non-members who heard you and believed you) do you suppose have been turned aside unknowingly this way?

Pastor Enoch: [Swallows hard] I have no idea, sir.

Pastor Enoch: I never realized all these things, I have always been taught that we had to tithe money to the local church and that is what I have always taught. Yes I am guilty. I will not teach this error anymore. Infact, I will go and take my words back. As many people as possible must hear this.

THE END

I have given the narration a good ending. I hope that someone close to Pastor Adeboye loves him enough and has enough balls to bring this issue to his attention. You will be saving not only his soul but the souls of millions of others who believe his grace-defying, grace-denying doctrine of tithing.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Credits:
This narration was crafted and adapted from my previous article, Believers are not subject to the Tithe, and from materials put up at http://tithing.christian-things.com/articles.html

Source: http://yomisays./2008/06/25/the-trial-of-pastor-enoch/
=========================================

STOP! Search!! Meditate!!!

Hebrews 7: 1-12, 1 Timothy 5:8, Jeremiah 9: 23-24

Source: The Holy Bible- http://www.christnotes.org/bible.php, +4%3A1&ver=kjv

Quote from: $$Rhino

i totally agree with you, but will depends on how big the church is as well, because in a very big church, will be so hard for the pasttor to even know who has food to eat and who doesnt

,

* Did you read the story of Christ feeding the 5,000 men, beside women & children in Matthew 14
* I thought the MoG is annointed to have visions and word of knowledge regarding needs of people in his church so he can "bless" them.
* If the pastor has problems dealing with a "very big church" maybe he should limit himself to the size where he can properly receive "holy spirit leadings" onm the needs of his flock

It is amazing how some people vehemently condemn/judge other people _{(myslef sometimes included)} as if we have not a single log in our own eyes.



A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

A_K_O:

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

The bloody kingdom is already fucking divided.
How do explain the differences between the catholics, anglicans, Presbytarians, Methodists, Cherubim & Seraphims, Deeper lifes and Christ Embassies, Jehovahs Witnesses & Redeemed, Winners Chapels & Grail message, e.t.c

So what other division are you looking for?? The kingdom was never united.

huxley:

All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician and ridiculous to the philosopher. Lucretius (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lucretius/)

I will never argue with that.

AIG08:

I think it has actually become a big business. I think very soon a revival will come that will reshape the whole concept.
As it is now, it's highly ridiculous and shamefull.

Revive what??
The hypocrisy?? the deciet?? or what??

@ Topic

Is religion a bussiness??

I will answer based on christianity. YES.
It is nothing but a hustle, a con mastered by a few and is being exploited at the expense of the insecurities of the poor and the gaullible.
How does one justify a supposed "servant" of God owning two planes a "Gulfstream 1 and A Gulfstream 4", rides in a convoy of over 4 luxury cars, with customized licence plates bearing his name, goes on expensive boat cruises, owns properties both at home and abroad, owns educational institutions whose fees are so expensive, that only a minor fraction of their congregation can afford it, owns shares in businesses and banks, has political influence, prays, supports and basically backs known crooked politicians, wines and dines with shady characters, e.t.c??

All religion is based on the same foundation which is "Uncertainty" a.k.a "Faith". Just believe. And then they pick a segment that best suits them and try to indoctrinate you while exploiting you financially. Seed faiths, Tithes, offerings, pledges, "widows mite", building offerings, welfare offerings, evangelism offerings, expectant womens offerings, e.t.c have now become the highlight of most services. Infact, in most churches, the time spent collecting offerings far exceeds the time spent preaching.
These offering are more or less supposed to be giving to God who according to the bible has a store room full of blessings that he pours out to those who believe in him so why do we need to give it back to him??
So now its like God gives us money so we can give the pastors. what rubbish.

I have decided not to patronise any church, cos you go in and come out poorer. wrong investment.