John 14: 6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Is this true?  No one goes onto Father but through Jesus?  How about the millions of people who go about their daily lives without so much as acknowledging Jesus?  Are they not going to meet the Father?

If they cannot meet the Father, it follows that they will end up in hell.  Yes, the ordinary man, woman, child, who has been a law-abiding citizen, done humanitarian acts, served his country and people dutifully, will end up in the same place as (presumably) Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Charlemagne, Constantine, etc, etc.

Does this system of justice seem fair?

Actually when put that way,it doesn't

The Jewish Atheist

On New York's Upper West Side lived an assimilated Jew who was a militant atheist. But he sent his son to Trinity School because, despite its denominational roots, it’s a great school and completely secular.After a month, the boy comes home and says casually, “By the way Dad, do you know what ‘Trinity’ means? It means the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.”

The father can barely control his rage. He seizes his son by the shoulders and declares, “Danny, I’m going to tell you something now and I want you never to forget it. There is only one God. AND we don’t believe in Him!”

huxley:

John 14: 6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Is this true? No one goes onto Father but through Jesus? How about the millions of people who go about their daily lives without so much as acknowledging Jesus? Are they not going to meet the Father?

If they cannot meet the Father, it follows that they will end up in hell. Yes, the ordinary man, woman, child, who has been a law-abiding citizen, done humanitarian acts, served his country and people dutifully, will end up in the same place as (presumably) Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Charlemagne, Constantine, etc, etc.

Does this system of justice seem fair?

expect the christains to come up here and start giving you some outlandish explanations. . . . . .

Cristalz:

Actually when put that way,it doesn't

Its more than fair. You must pass an exam to qualify for college . . . is this system fair to those with an IQ lower than 50, the guy with cerebral palsy, the law abiding citizen who cant afford college all for no fault of theirs?

To be entirely honest no one has an excuse or can claim they've never heard about Jesus. Its laughable to imagine someone like Huxley is planning to use that defence.

Here's what really gets me thinking . . . why do these people spend so much time and energy to prove God doesnt exist but yet are worried about entry into heaven?

davidylan*:

Its more than fair. You must pass an exam to qualify for college . . . is this system fair to those with an IQ lower than 50, the guy with cerebral palsy, the law abiding citizen who can't afford college all for no fault of theirs?

David, shame on you for the examples above, particularly, the one I've put in bold.

You apparently know quite little about cerebral palsy, for you to make the generalization above. One could have overlooked it, except that the ignorance magnifies your prejudice which has emerged in full form. I'll leave open the possibility that you'll redeem yourself, because, inspite of all things, you appear to be a good man.
.

Nimshi:

David, shame on you for the examples above, particularly, the one I've put in bold.

You apparently know quite little about cerebral palsy, for you to make the generalization above. One could have overlooked it, except that the ignorance magnifies your prejudice which has emerged in full form. I'll leave open the possibility that you'll redeem yourself, because, inspite of all things, you appear to be a good man.

Your point appears convoluted, devoid of real meaning and deliberately designed to confuse.
The key issue in using that "example" is that some people, seemingly for no fault of theirs, are also exempted from certain things that everyone else takes for granted.

davidylan*:

Its more than fair. You must pass an exam to qualify for college . . . is this system fair to those with an IQ lower than 50, the guy with cerebral palsy, the law abiding citizen who can't afford college all for no fault of theirs?

To be entirely honest no one has an excuse or can claim they've never heard about Jesus. Its laughable to imagine someone like Huxley is planning to use that defence.

Here's what really gets me thinking . . . why do these people spend so much time and energy to prove God doesnt exist but yet are worried about entry into heaven?

i have meet so many people in thailand who have NEVER heard about jesus in 2006, that event/encounter was what really changed my perception about religion and god in general. . . .  what the heck are you talkin  about?  i have seen a group of people in north korea on TV who have never heard about jesus in a televised documentary on the god channel . . . .  who feeds you this crap about people  knowing about jesus the world over?  have you been to indai, china, thailand, burma, mongolia,sri-lanka etc go there and see for your self there are millions that have not heard about your jesus. . . . .  stop deluding yourself into believing that every body has had about your jesus. . . . . . it might sound strange to you but millions have'nt. . . . . .i was astonished when i first went to thailand and saw people who do not even know what i was talking about when i told them that i was a christain(because i was a christain at that time). . . . . . .

davidylan*:

Its more than fair. You must pass an exam to qualify for college . . . is this system fair to those with an IQ lower than 50, the guy with cerebral palsy, the law abiding citizen who can't afford college all for no fault of theirs?

To be entirely honest no one has an excuse or can claim they've never heard about Jesus. Its laughable to imagine someone like Huxley is planning to use that defence.

Here's what really gets me thinking . . . why do these people spend so much time and energy to prove God doesnt exist but yet are worried about entry into heaven?

Is it really fair? I doubt it, even by our own earthly standards. There are many problems with this way of thinking, some of which are the following;

1) If our existence on earth is really an exam, why isn't everyone presented with exactly the same options or questions? Why would god give Jesus to the people in the Middle East and wait 2000 years for knowledge of Jesus to reach South America, Japan, Southern Africa, Australia? By what standard were our great-great-great-great grandparents examined before the coming of Christianity in Africa?

Today, there are millions who have not heard of the word Jesus, ever. By what standards are they going to sit this exam?

2) Why would an exam be required, anyway, for an omniscient god. He is suppose to know our innermost thoughts and minds. If he knows our minds, then why is the exam necessary?

The whole hell concept sucks, some have already been made by the potter to be in heaven so why bother, if huxley has been predestined to be there he will be there no matter how much of an atheist he is today  ( no offence meant oh ) and no matter how much of a christian some people are they will not still make it, how nice, if hitler can be in the same place as the 6 million jews he annihilated, who is talking about Justice eh?

When God walks into a room morality disappears through the backdoor, so never mind folks the book has been written already, me na heaven I go dey no matter what! lol

Chrisbenogor:

The whole hell concept sucks, some have already been made by the potter to be in heaven so why bother, if huxley has been predestined to be there he will be there no matter how much of an atheist he is today ( no offence meant oh ) and no matter how much of a christian some people are they will not still make it, how nice, [b]if hitler can be in the same place as the 6 million jews he annihilated, who is talking about Justice eh?[/b]When God walks into a room morality disappears through the backdoor, so never mind folks the book has been written already, me na heaven I go dey no matter what! lol

This sums it up. . . . . . . .

What is all this talk about fair or not fair? He is the porter, you are the clay. What right does the clay have to ask the porter why this or that? The porter without a second thought will remove and break in pieces any piece of clay that dosnt fit his design or purpose and the clay can't say a Word to him. That's what we call the righteousness of God. It is by faith from 1st to last. Only one way- Jesus, son of the living God!

To be entirely honest no one has an excuse or can claim they've never heard about Jesus. Its laughable to imagine someone like Huxley is planning to use that defence

Ok not to stir up anything but, i just want to disagree a bit and throw this in there for thought.

Christianity did not start existing in our age. It existed for 2000 years, and during that time people all around the world were dying even before they knew or heard of the name Jesus.

Now seeing that God is not relative to time, I doubt he would say that in 2008 there was technology and everyone had heard of Jesus so those of you who died before 2008 should also be judged in light on 2008.

Now even though we are in 2008, there are those who do not or have heard of Jesus. I believe there tribes deep in the amazon forests and all aorund the world that missionaries have not traveled to, or may not know exist.

So my point? Don't assume things, and don't look at things from the angle of "it's 2008" everyone should have heard of Jesus by now. God won't be thinking "it's 2008 everyone should have heard of Jesus by now"

Let's challenge ourselves to be broad in thinking.

What about the millions of people pre-colonial era that didnt have any access to western religion and doctrines and worshipped their own gods? Would they also go to hell to for their ignorance?

~Lady~:

Ok not to stir up anything but, i just want to disagree a bit and throw this in there for thought.

Christianity did not start existing in our age. It existed for 2000 years, and during that time people all around the world were dying even before they knew or heard of the name Jesus.

Now seeing that God is not relative to time, I doubt he would say that in 2008 there was technology and everyone had heard of Jesus so those of you who died before 2008 should also be judged in light on 2008.

Now even though we are in 2008, there are those who do not or have heard of Jesus. I believe there tribes deep in the amazon forests and all aorund the world that missionaries have not traveled to, or may not know exist.

So my point? Don't assume things, and don't look at things from the angle of "it's 2008" everyone should have heard of Jesus by now. God won't be thinking "it's 2008 everyone should have heard of Jesus by now"

Let's challenge ourselves to be broad in thinking.

Most times in your haste to force urself to disagree with David you seem to also read wrong motives to my post.
Now one quick question - reread that line you quoted and pls show me where i made the claim that everyone who died before 2008 would be judged by the standards of 2008?

I remember addressing this severally, the thief on the cross probably never even bothered about who Jesus . . . probably never read the law in his life, possibly never obeyed a commandment all his life and yet still made paradise . . .

Everyone will be judged according to the level of revelation available to their time. Prior to the laws of Moses it was not a crime for men (even Abraham) to marry their sisters . . . Abraham is certainly not in hell.

Likewise the man who died in AD 53 would be judged based on what he knew then and not 2008.

Back to my point to Huxley, maybe i shld not have used the term "no one" and will thus replace it with "almost all".

Most times in your haste to force yourself to disagree with David you seem to also read wrong motives to my post.
Now one quick question - reread that line you quoted and please show me where i made the claim that everyone who died before 2008 would be judged by the standards of 2008?

And in your quest to disprove me, you completely go beyond reasoning. I never stated that you stated that God will judge based on 2008. I am laying an analysis, and asking you to reason with me. If you disagree state so and show with your own analysis.

Ridiculous ranting of pointing fault is very childish.

Please note that I am not the only one who saw the fault in your statement.

Check tribalists post above. He is very direct with the point and I agree with him. Maybe I should have been more direct.

Back to my point to Huxley, maybe i shld not have used the term "no one" and will thus replace it with "almost all".

LOLOLOL, _{sometimes it isn't wrong to acknowledge your shortcomings}

God will judgge every man according to his work.that is it is all man for himself simple. the christian will be judged and that man that doesn't know christ but did goodd works faithfully will enter. bbut if u have heard of him it is harder

tribalist:

What about the millions of people pre-colonial era that didnt have any access to western religion and doctrines and w[b]orshipped their own gods? Would they also go to hell to for their ignorance?[/b]

I need an answer to this too,
For those claiming that only the Christians are going to heaven.

I need an answer to this too,
For those claiming that only the Christians are going to heaven.

I don't know why so called Christians make claims like that as if they are deciding for God who will and won't enter into heaven.

It is not up to us to decide, it is up to God. He gives graces and it is not ours to give but his. So I too am sickened when I hear things like this, and then some bloke comes here and tries to justify it through scripture.

It is a case of superiority in Christiandom, and it is very unChrist like.

I believe in Christ so I'm going to heaven. You don't believe in Christ so you're not going to heaven. Stupid and ridiculous claims, it is not theirs to give.

They cling to their Bibles and scream I believe in Christ, yet they're the ones quick to turn around and judge others. It is one thing to believe in Christ it is another thing to act upon that faith. Living like Christ is different from believing in Christ.
Some people will do well to take note.

~Lady~:

I don't know why so called Christians make claims like that as if they are deciding for God who will and won't enter into heaven.

It is not up to us to decide, it is up to God. He gives graces and it is not ours to give but his. So I too am sickened when I hear things like this, and then some bloke comes here and tries to justify it through scripture.

It is a case of superiority in Christiandom, and it is very unChrist like.

I believe in Christ so I'm going to heaven. You don't believe in Christ so you're not going to heaven. Stupid and ridiculous claims, it is not theirs to give.

They cling to their Bibles and scream I believe in Christ, yet they're the ones quick to turn around and judge others. It is one thing to believe in Christ it is another thing to act upon that faith. Living like Christ is different from believing in Christ.
Some people will do well to take note.

Thank you very much.
You have said it all.

donnie:

What is all this talk about fair or not fair? He is the porter, you are the clay. What right does the clay have to ask the porter why this or that? The porter without a second thought will remove and break in pieces any piece of clay that dosnt fit his design or purpose and the clay can't say a Word to him. That's what we call the righteousness of God. It is by faith from 1st to last. Only one way- Jesus, son of the living God!

dogma no be small thing see how person dey assert with authority wetin him no fix proof. . . . . .

Just a little touch of reality goes a very very very long way. Everyday on this forum people yap away about heaven and hell, nobody knows for certain that it does, no one. So it is sickening as it is nauseating that this mantra that has been taught to everyone since birth.
There is no proof that there is life after death, there is no way for us to determine this except of course belief!
Looking more closely to the concept of hell it becomes really clear that is one of those jigsaw puzzles that religion has forced the pieces together because the truth is they just don't know but they never say they don't know, they always come across as being certain.
Ok I ask them what exactly goes to hell would our flesh be brought to life again after it has changed to dust? do you know that for certain? If it is the soul then what exactly is the soul? Does it feel pain like flesh how do we know for sure what a soul feels when you have never been one?
It gets more confusing, what is eternity compared to our concept of time, shocking a soul or flesh or spirit would be in pain for eternity! Tell me how the human mind can wrap its mind on the concept of forever? The earth is 4.5 billion years old and we have not been able to experience any of these for ourselves, people who do are dead and the dead don't talk!
This confusion has been going on for centuries and its amazing that people come forth to defend these things that they know noting of, in the very least why not add that you are not so sure? Why not say you think rather than you know? Heck I don't know myself if these things do exist and I would be a liar to say I know for certain that they don't.
Again this is not an attack but a frantic call for us to be the humans that we are and accept that we never really know, I stand for the truth and for honesty. Are we being honest when we say we know for sure that these things do exist, or better yet say I believe that it would happen like this, belief being the operative word and belief does not make it true.

The Sly:

Thank you very much.
You have said it all.

Sorry bro she hasnt said anything. All she has succeeded in doing is repeating what the serpent said to Eve in the Garden of Eden . . . Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

Lets see what she argues so vehemently about and compare it to what the bible actually has to say -

~Lady~:

I believe in Christ so I'm going to heaven. You don't believe in Christ so you're not going to heaven. Stupid and ridiculous claims, it is not theirs to give.

this is what the bible has to say - John 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Its crystal clear, we mortal man cannot give you a pass to heaven but the bible is more than explicit . . . He that believeth not in Christ is CONDEMNED ALREADY. Dont be decieved by all this "its all rosy, just be good" theology.

~Lady~:

I don't know why so called Christians make claims like that as if they are deciding for God who will and won't enter into heaven.

It is not up to us to decide, it is up to God. He gives graces and it is not ours to give but his. So I too am sickened when I hear things like this, and then some bloke comes here and tries to justify it through scripture.

It is a case of superiority in Christiandom, and it is very unChrist like.

Unfortunately Christ was the very one speaking in John 3:18. It is not a case of superiority, it is a case of the pure unadulterated word of God. Anyone outside Christ has NO chance of going to heaven. Mollycuddling them and pretending they can make it if they pay penance and recite the rosary is fallacy.
Where you also sickened when you read John 3:18? If you cant justify the gospel through scripture what will you use? Sacred tradition?

~Lady~:

Check tribalists post above. He is very direct with the point and I agree with him. Maybe I should have been more direct.

tribalist's post had nothing to do with what i posted earlier. you will do well to read first.

The Sly:

I need an answer to this too,
For those claiming that only the Christians are going to heaven.

My brother . . . here are the plain facts:

1. Realise that there is nothing new under the sun, the bible says what has been is now and what is now has been and God requires the past.

2. What of our ancestors who never heard the gospel and worshipped idols? Open your bible and ask yourself, what about Noah, Lamech, Abraham, Seth, Methuselah . . . men who didnt have the law, never even heard of Christ, didnt know anything about sin . . . did they go to hell? No. But why?
Simple - the bible had this to say about Noah . . . Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Notice something very important . . . the bible says Noah was a just man and perfect but it quickly qualified that with this . . . IN HIS GENERATION. Every man in the bible was judged according to the light that was available in their generation and that is what i believe God will use to judge those who never had access to the bible during their own generation.

3. Now SLY, remember that you will be judged ACCORDING TO YOUR GENERATION. What will be your excuse on the last day? You cant say you didnt hear of Christ, unlike Noah there is no excuse that the blood of Jesus was not available, you cant claim you never saw a bible . . .

My brother, enough of arguing semantics . . . [size=14pt]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/size]

that, my dear, is the conclusion of the matter.

davidylan* link=topic=177704.msg2884767#msg2884767 :


Notice something very important . . . the bible says Noah was a just man and perfect but it quickly qualified that with this . . . IN HIS GENERATION. Every man in the bible was judged according to the light that was available in their generation and that is what i believe God will use to judge those who never had access to the bible during their own generation.

3. Now SLY, remember that you will be judged ACCORDING TO YOUR GENERATION. What will be your excuse on the last day? You can't say you didnt hear of Christ, unlike Noah there is no excuse that the blood of Jesus was not available, you can't claim you never saw a bible . . .

What the deuce is this?  What sort of theology is this?

Christian spend a lot of effort arguing for absolute morality and then you come and argue for relativism.

I have listen to the most prominent of contemporary Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, argue vehemently for absolute morality and god as the source of such morality. You have just come along and taken the opposite road.

Man, go read up on apologetics.

huxley:

What the deuce is this? What sort of theology is this?

Christian spend a lot of effort arguing for absolute morality and then you come and argue for relativism.

I have listen to the most prominent of contemporary Christian apologist, William Lane Craig, argue vehemently for absolute morality and god as the source of such morality. You have just come along and taken the opposite road.

Man, go read up on apologetics.

christianity has nothing to do with morality.

huxley:

What the deuce is this? What sort of theology is this?

you shldnt bother about it if it makes no sense to you.

davidylan*:

christianity has nothing to do with morality.

wetin man no go hear from this apologist. . . . . . .

mazaje:

wetin man no go hear from this apologist. . . . . . .

I wont bother explaining . . . enjoy mocking now. You wont be doing that for too long.

davidylan*:

I wont bother explaining . . . enjoy mocking now. You wont be doing that for too long.

of course i wont, you have mocked allah and the virgin mary too, you wont be doing that for too long too. . . .

davidylan*:

[size=18pt]christianity has nothing to do with morality[/size].

You are kidding, aren't you? Or are you for real?

huxley:

You are kidding, aren't you? Or are you for real?

not kidding at all.

mazaje:

of course i wont, you have mocked allah and the virgin mary too, you wont be doing that for too long too. . . .

To expose false worship is not the same as to mock. You have a choice . . . continue mocking.

davidylan*:


To expose false worship is not the same as to mock. You have a choice . . . continue mocking.

false worship says who? you? keep on trying to expose it won't be for too long. . . . . .