Good day all,

I see the usual suspects here .

will be back on saturday if you guys are still here _{did not know this thread could be revived}

Another 'suspect' reporting to duty.

well i really missed this thread anyways

cant seem to find another intelligent forum as good as this although there might be others


@eassy

"undesirable elements" indeed

go and get ur facts right, how come under pressure hamas at last had to agree to negotiation with isreal since they have always been saying they don't and wont recognizes the isrealis.

probably they recorgnise the bombs

@Kaecy5
F-16s ,Apache gunships and cruise misssiles is the language jihadists understand

Easyy:

hopefully, we are not forgetful of the fact that the Government in Palestine is nothing but a lame duck. It can't even control it's own people.
The west refused to recognise it despite being a democracy. How do you expect a govt which cannot control it's own people to have enough resources to stop every palestinian from attacking Israel.

First you claim Hamas won a "free and fair" election (with guns at the heads of the voters!) and in the same breath remind us that they cannot contro its own people!
So would it be perfectly OK for Nigeria not to retaliate if "undesirable elements" in Cameroun decided to start sending missiles into Calabar on the grounds that the government of Cameroun cannot control its own people?

What is the role of a government if it cannot control its own people?

i wonder oooo

maybe their role is to steal money from international aid

aid from their enemy isreal also


@afam
how u dey , long time no chat

i cant seem to trace u in other forums

What is a govt if it is not accountable for the actions of its citizens
Israel takes responsibility for their actions but Palestine would blame either Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or some other Undesirable elements. Lebanon would blame Hizballah then what is the use of having a govt.
If Lagosians can attack Benin republic what do you expect the Beninois govt to do? definitely the Nigerian govt would be expected to put Lagos in order

Quite understandably, every government is supposed to be able to control it's own people. The point is that if the international community is so keen to strip that government of the ability to control and influence it's people, it becomes morally unacceptable to have high expectations of that government.
The same government which the west decided to starve of funds is the one expected to have enough resources to control militants. Haba!!!

Even the US, with it's military might has found itself in dire straits against militants in Iraq. How do you then expect a government stripped of any meaningful resources to meet such a lofty expectation?

Let's start getting real and get off that high horse

dayokanu:

What is a govt if it is not accountable for the actions of its citizens
Israel takes responsibility for their actions but Palestine would blame either Islamic Jihad, Hamas, or some other Undesirable elements. Lebanon would blame Hizballah then what is the use of having a govt.
If Lagosians can attack Benin republic what do you expect the Beninois govt to do? definitely the Nigerian govt would be expected to put Lagos in order

Dayo,

I agree with your point. That's the same reason I am stating that the rape of Iraqi women and the murders of women and children was done by America (applying the same principle).

Daviddylan, let's define what a terrorist organisation is and then we can decide what Hamas is and try seeing if any other organisation/government falls within the same scope.

Let us not forget what Hamas sonstituition says.That all infidels must be wiped out of Moslem Holy Land.Hamas uses deliberate violence against innocent civilians.

They are not talking of co-existence with Isreal but wiping out Isreal.All that the international community has done is to withold aid money from Hamas which entitled to do.There are other places in the world like AFRICA that rrequire such aid money and every nation is entitled to use their money how they wish

If you see people who want to wipe you out, your natural instinct is also to wipe them out.

now, the Palestinians dont have the diplomacy of the west to disguise their own intentions and be decietful. Everyday, Israel makes further incursions into palestinian territory turning more and more Palestinians into refugees in their own country, just because they have superior military capability.

What do you think Palestinians percieve Israel to be doing? They naturally believe that, given the chance, Israel would wipe them off the face of the earth and make them slaves.

How long did it take for Israel to accept to recognising Palestine as a State? or does anyone think Palestinians will just forget everything that has been done to them just as if it never happened?

@eASYY
Do u mean that Isreal wants to wipe out Palestinians.If they wanted that they could have done it.It is amazing the great lenghts people go trying to make sense of what should be condemned.

Isreal recognised Palestine right of existence before their independence in the 40s .It was only after the Oslo accords that Palestinians recognised Isreal's right existence.

The basis of the agreement in the 40s was that both sides would share the land but the Arabs rejected it saying that ,given that at the time the State of Isreal had a population of just 600,000,They could acheive an easy military victory.The thinking was why settle for a share of the land when they can get everything by military might.At the time the boot was on the other foot,contries like Britain decided not to support Isreal because Isreal was thought to be bound to lose and so they needed to stay friendly with the Arabs.Eventually Isreal defeated an army 10 times its size

Eventually most Palestinians settled for co-existence but Hamas stilll preaches the opposite.Remember the basis of Hamas claims to wipe out Isreal is not because they think Isreal wants to do it,but that they preach that according to Islam infidels are not supposed to live in Muslim Holy Land and it is the duty of true moslems to remove them or convert them.This applies to Palestinian Christians ,many of whom have fled since Hamas won the election

@Easyy,

I agree with your point. That's the same reason I am stating that the rape of Iraqi women and the murders of women and children was done by America (applying the same principle).

Then we must also agree that all nations and government under the banner of the UN are guilty of child sexual abuse and molestation: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6159923.stm.

so who's got the moral right to accuse the US amongst them?

Easyy:

Quite understandably, every government is supposed to be able to control it's own people. The point is that if the international community is so keen to strip that government of the ability to control and influence it's people, it becomes morally unacceptable to have high expectations of that government.
The same government which the west decided to starve of funds is the one expected to have enough resources to control militants. Haba!!!

I am appalled by your puerile reasoning! Is it the duty of the International Community to pay salaries and fund the economy of the Palestinian government while they busy themselves with hurling stones, rockets and chanting "death to Isreal"?

since when did the palestinian government become an orphan that has to depend on aid to survive and since when did the palestinians acquire the right to foreign aid? Do you know that the greater part of the aid you accuse the "international community" of witholding comes fro the USA and Isreal, the two nations the palestinians would most want to wipe off the map?

So Nigeria is free to start bombing Cameroun since it cannot be expected to control its citizens after the International Community witheld aid? The government is starved of whose funds really? The taxes of hardworking Isrealis and Americans?

Easyy:

If you see people who want to wipe you out, your natural instinct is also to wipe them out.

That is exactly what Isreal is doing, protecting its citizens from those who would given the slightest chance make good their threat to drive them into the sea!

Easyy:

What do you think Palestinians percieve Israel to be doing? They naturally believe that, given the chance, Israel would wipe them off the face of the earth and make them slaves.

No sir! The palestinians are NOT retaliating! Stop attempting to disguise the aggressor as the victim simply because Isreal has superior weapons! For where the shoe to be on the other foot, Isreal would have long ceased to exist! Which is the primary goal of all Arab muslims and not just Palestinians!

If we can even give the palestinians that excuse, what is the excuse of Sudanese, Nigerian, Iranian, Syrian, Egyptian, Lebanese muslims? Do they also naturally percieve the Isrealis to be trying to wipe them off the face of the earth?

You are very easily carried away by your emotion and blind loyalty. International politics dictates that, for there to be world harmony, stronger and richer nations will have to offer support to weaker, poorer nations. You expect a poorly equipped palestinian givernment to defeat militants who are better equipped than them? I remember seeing Palestinian military training and a comment to the effect that they don't even have enough guns for the soldiers in training.

No need for me to state again that it has become very apparent that George war monger Bush has an anti-moslem vendetta so it does not suprise me that Islamic nations also have strong hatred for Bush's America. Israel's case is a non issue. Go and find out about UN resolutions and how many times Israel has violated them to take Palestinian lands; perhaps you'll know why Palestinians will be a bitter people filled with such hatred.

You misunderstand? or you just chose to ignore? It is not the Palestinian Givernment that is involved in any bombing campaign. BTW, it's the taxes of us all,  very often stolen by illicit means to America and Europe.

Israel has been land grabbing against every UN resolution for several years with no publicity. Go and find out about the land situation between both countries or visit the region.

I don't know what this has to do with Nigerian moslems

@Easyy
So the US has an obligation to send money to Palestinians ?This money will be used to support a Govt that is not committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict.A Govt whose stated aim is the annihilation of infidels living in Moslem land.

Given that Palestinians receive per capita 10 times more aid perperson than Africans,I wonder why u insist that they must be given more.Why not use that aid money in Africa?

No country has an obligation to sne money to any other.

The only country which has never been committed to a peaceful resolution of the conflict is Israel supported by George Bush

@ Easyy

Stop seeing thing from the point of religious bias! Yes international politics dictates albeit not directly that stronger nations support weaker nations NOT SHOULDER VIRTUALLY ALL THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES!

The key here is support! Ever since the US, Isreal and the EU withdrew financial "aid", it is quite clear that the palestinian government was doing no more than simply waiting for the next aid allocation to pay its citizens salaries.
you talk about the aid being taxes stolen from the rest of the world, which stealing are you refering to? How has the taxes of the average Nigerian (if Nigerians even pay tax at all) been stolen to aid the palestinian cause?

You talk about aid as if it is the birthright of the Palestinians, how many African nations are being aided by the rich shiekdoms in Dubai, Quatar and Saudi Arabia beyond the funding of radical islamist groups?

It is either naive or ignorant to imply that the bombing campaign going on by the palestinians is not by the government. Everyone knows the manifesto of Hamas and what they think about the state of Isreal. Wait a minute, where do "undesirable elements" get the funds to purchase rockets, grenades and other weapons being launched into Isreal for the past few yrs? You claim the palestinian army dont even have guns to train, what about Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah and other groups that have more sophisticated weapons than some African countries?

When you say this issue has nothing to do with Nigerian muslims, you are only playing the ostrich! Then what has the pope's comments or the Isreali-palestinian crisis got to do with Nigerian christians? Why did some have to pay with their lives for the strokes of the pen of a danish cartoonist?
Everywhere we see muslims in Sudan, Nigeria, Somalia, Iran chant "death to Isreal" and we wonder whether they also have suffered in the hands of land-grabbing Isreal?

Easyy:

No country has an obligation to sne money to any other.

If you knew this all along, i wonder why you feel the US and Isreal should continue aiding the Palestinians that are only committed to their destruction!

David as you should know I am against all forms of religious fundmanetalism and extremism including Islam. As you have shown there are not alot of examples of moderate Islam, Lebanon is one of the few examples of this though it has its extremist elements.

But make no mistake, just as there are fundamentalist christians there are fundamentalist jews. The fact is Israel and its government practice the same tactics of terror the palestinians do. They kill children, routenly participate in unwarranted bombings and home incursions and practice Apartheid policies. This is all predicated on the fact that they are ILLEGALLY, against international and un sanctions, expanding the state of Israel on a premise of religious fanatacism of a "greater Israel" Israel as a government commits as much crimes and has killed more families and holds more Palestinians prisoner than any other nation in the 21st century and has broken more UN resolutions than any other nation. The fact that the Palestinians respond with suicide bombings does not excuse the evils of Israel's actions over the years and your blind support for such a religious state (which is as bad and ethnic as the UAE) is worrisome.

is the international community equally preach of continous violence. what about unreadiness of the hamas to recognise isreal as a nation? what about iran's call for isreal to be wiped out of the map.
in the case of lebanon, the real situation is unfolding. hezbolah is about staging a peaceful rally aimed at bringing down the lebanese govenment and instale a hezbolah led government as was the case of palestine. the whole script was written by iran.
all these were mentioned by isreal in their presentations to un assembly.
whatever the case is palestine and lebanon must be aware that iran cannot love them more than they love themselves.
iran which has in the past refused to associate themselves with the arabs have find a way to manipulate the arabs instigating problems all over the arab world.

Palestines do not need aid to survive. They are not asking for aid to survive.

The powerful countries supported Israel to create the situation that we have today.

Before the creation of Israel in 1948, did the Palestine depend on aid to survive? If no (which is basically the fact), why do they depend on aid today?

Until this question is answered one may never look at this issue the way it should be looked at, unfortunately people take decisions based on religion and this alone blinds many from seeing things the way they really are.

Even as at today, most if not all the money that is being seized by the Israeli government have nothing to do with aid to Palestine but taxes that belong to Palestine but due to the present occupation and security arrangement the people of Palestine cannot access such funds.

Israel as a country have broken more UN resolutions than Iraq but again each time the issue is brought up the US will always veto it because Israel remains an ally that must be protected at all cost, real shame to the UN.

Some 4 or 5 years ago, US and Israel stormed out of a gathering in South Africa when Israel was accused of hate and human rights violations.

There can never be peace unless there is justice and fairplay.

Afam:

Palestines do not need aid to survive. They are not asking for aid to survive.

The powerful countries supported Israel to create the situation that we have today.

Before the creation of Israel in 1948, did the Palestine depend on aid to survive? If no (which is basically the fact), why do they depend on aid today?

Until this question is answered one may never look at this issue the way it should be looked at, unfortunately people take decisions based on religion and this alone blinds many from seeing things the way they really are.

Err here we go again going round and round. Before Israel was created, the word 'Palestine' referred to Jews living in the British administrated territory. The people now called Palestinians were Egyptians, Jordanians, Simites etc. Before the creation of Israel, there was no such thing as a Palestinian homeland.

For those interested in the facts
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html
http://www.tzemachmusic.com/fyi/docs/speak/nopal.htm
http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_91.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_(region)
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/349b02280a930813052565e90048ed1c!OpenDocument - League of Nations (before the UN)
http://www.mideastweb.org/unscop1947.htm
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/07175de9fa2de563852568d3006e10f3!OpenDocument&Highlight=0,AC.13%2F2 - UN

Also see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_refugees
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

Afam:

Even as at today, most if not all the money that is being seized by the Israeli government have nothing to do with aid to Palestine but taxes that belong to Palestine but due to the present occupation and security arrangement the people of Palestine cannot access such funds.

Is it not wonderful that palestinian civilians that have not been paid salaries for more than 6 months are still paying taxes to their mortal enemies?

How are the monies withheld by Isreal taxes of the palestinian people? Taxes from where? Is Isreal collecting tax on behalf of Palestine? Would there not have been a major uproar by now if truly those taxes legitimately belonged to the "palestinian" people (er Arabs masquerading as palestinians)?

interesting

even when the peace accord is signed we all know who violates it first

@easyy

Easyy:

now, the Palestinians don't have the diplomacy of the west to disguise their own intentions and be decietful. [s]Everyday, Israel makes further incursions into palestinian territory [/s] turning more and more Palestinians into refugees in their own country, just because they have superior military capability.

What do you think Palestinians percieve Israel to be doing? They naturally believe that, given the chance, Israel would wipe them off the face of the earth and make them slaves.

How long did it take for Israel to accept to recognising Palestine as a State? or does anyone think Palestinians will just forget everything that has been done to them just as if it never happened?

so much sweet words u have said here indeed
isreal makes incursions into palestine territory

well it is quite unfortunate that u dont have enough facts to support ur argument cos if u do u would know why isreal each time goes back in to palestine territory

mind u the arabs in palestine as at today were a group of people organised by arafat they they originally are from syria and lebanon

isreal do not make incursions into arab terrotory willing they are forced to. isreal have been giving up land for peace every time yet ur faithful palestines are not satisfied
probably u should tell us why hezbollah decided to attack isreali soldiers at there duty post and then start hauling rockets on isreali civilians

if they so much like their people why hide among civilians when hauling rockets?

like i have always said
unitl the arabs learn to keep to their own side of any bargain there would never be peace inthe middle east

and mind u easyy the arabs are trained from birth to see the isrealis as the enemy go and ask arafat about the propanganda scheme or u could read up some earlier post u would see the link to UTUBE and the rest

enjoy

kaecy5:

interesting

even when the peace accord is signed we all know who violates it first

@easyy



so much sweet words u have said here indeed
isreal makes incursions into palestine territory

well it is quite unfortunate that u don't have enough facts to support your argument because if u do u would know why isreal each time goes back in to palestine territory

mind u the arabs in palestine as at today were a group of people organised by arafat they they originally are from syria and lebanon

isreal do not make incursions into arab terrotory willing they are forced to. isreal have been giving up land for peace every time yet your faithful palestines are not satisfied
probably u should tell us why hezbollah decided to attack isreali soldiers at there duty post and then start hauling rockets on isreali civilians

if they so much like their people why hide among civilians when hauling rockets?

like i have always said
unitl the arabs learn to keep to their own side of any bargain there would never be peace inthe middle east

and mind u easyy the arabs are trained from birth to see the isrealis as the enemy go and ask arafat about the propanganda scheme or u could read up some earlier post u would see the link to UTUBE and the rest

enjoy

You sign a peace accord after you take all of my land and make me your houseboy? you must be having a laugh!

While Israel was giving up land in front of TV cameras, they were grabbing even more land behind the scenes. You need to go and find out the real facts and not what you are fed by your right wing press.

They fight the way they think they can fight back. They'll hide wherever they think they need to hide to fight back. Until there is justice and fairness, there can never be peace.

If a stronger man is killing me and I want to fight back, I wont mind biting his balls off if that's the only way I percieve I can fight back.

The proper propaganda is being carried out by America and UK. I dont really need any UTUBE link. Palestinians dont need anyone to train them to hate Israelis. What they suffer everyday and see from childhood being inflicted upon them is enough to train them for hatred towards Israel and America.

Have fun

Easyy:

You sign a peace accord after you take all of my land and make me your houseboy? you must be having a laugh!

While Israel was giving up land in front of TV cameras, they were grabbing even more land behind the scenes. You need to go and find out the real facts and not what you are fed by your right wing press.

I don't even know where to begin. I would ask you to post your legitimate sources but, that would be useless cause you obviously have none.

This is the kind of statement to be expected by someone who has taken a stance for whatever reason without ever knowing what they are taking a stand on. Blind leading the blind as they say.

LOL yes, the following two peace loving arabs really want peace.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?=1164881801325&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-22/0612024565104640.htm

So why can't Iran take over aid to the Palestinian Arabs?

Easyy:

(1) You sign a peace accord after you take all of my land and make me your houseboy? you must be having a laugh!

(2) While Israel was giving up land in front of TV cameras, they were grabbing even more land behind the scenes. You need to go and find out the real facts and not what you are fed by your right wing press.

@Easyy,
Can I beg your indulgence to briefly give me some "real facts" informing your understanding of the Israel V. Palestine/Arab land conflict. It is true that understanding can be influenced by either 'right wing or left wing press' as you rightly said; but 'real facts' based on previously documented and historical evidences of the past occurences are less likely to be affected either by recall bias or press/political bias, and I am sure you have these facts.

@EASYY
Your response to a demand for facts is to quote a biased partisan advocacy website.Like quoting the Democratic Party's website for issues concerning American politics.

This a pro-palestinian advocacy group run Alison Weir

4play,

Which of the websites that you have posted are free of western bias?