DrummaBoy:

I have done that, my dear, and found no such scripture that said or implied "Jesus gathered people to heal them" or operated a healing school. If you cannot provide the scripture, we must conclude that you are wrong to say Jesus gathered people for healing services and that the healing school operated by WOF adherents has no foundation in scripture.

Not so fast, i'm not the one to bring you to conclusion. Why the urge of 'must conclude' ? Why should your concluded conclusion rest on my provisions?

Candour:

Pls stop calling people ignoramuses when you clearly display ignorance yourself. John 1:37 NEVER said Jesus owned a house. Otherwise we might be tempted to call Christ a liar for saying the below

Matthew 8:20 KJV
And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

Don't call Jesus a liar, call those who sold you the lie that Jesus was homeless liars. Jesus had a house and he lived in Capernum.

John 1:37-39King James Version (KJV)
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour

Jesus was able to house Phillip and Andrews in the place where he dwelled.

Galilee was a big city in then Palestine, same with Judea, Samaria, Decapolis etc. Galilee housed towns such as Chorazin, Magdala, Cana, Capernum, Nazareth, Nain etc. Same way Judea encompassed towns such as Hebron, Bethlehem, Bethany, Jerusalem etc. Jesus for example was born in Bethlehem but was taken to Egypt and then brought back to Nazareth (because the new Herod wanted him dead as well in Judea). He was brought up in Nazareth with his folks but when he grew up he moved to Capernum.

I said all that to say this, when studying the map (as can be Googled) it is clear that if anyone is making a journey from Galilee to Judea they would have to pass Samaria or take a circuitous route to bypass it (which is longer). The Jews of Jesus' day had issues with the Samaritans and many of them took the latter option but in Jesus' case he decided to use the Samaritan route.

The distance was quite long and he needed a place to rest before continuing the Journey but the Samaritans refused him a place to stay seeing that he was a Jew and was heading to Jerusalem in Judea. That's why James offered that they called down fire from heaven to kill them to which Jesus rebuked him. It was while passing the villages in Samaria that a man asked to follow Jesus where he was going to and then Jesus replied- "foxes have holes, birds have nest but the son of man has no where to lay his head". The son of man had no where to lay his head in Samaria.

I am not the Ignorant one.

The issue is how can you truly help somebody [s]when you actually despise and look down on him[/s]?

- You can help by teaching them that God doesn't want them poor and has made provision through his word for them to prosper.
- You can help them by giving them aides like start-up money, education, provisions, a job etc

Of course many Christians fall sick. Its not a doctrine, its simple fact. Otherwise you'll not even be promoting a "healing school". What we say is that Christians can fall sick even like any other person unlike people who claim "i cannot be sick". When Christians pray for healing like James admonished, it should be with the belief that the sovereign God will answer. God never promised that any christian wont be sick but even in sickness, God still remains faithful and we should be too

The healing school is not for ONLY christians. It is a means to convince Naysayers, scoffers, atheists that God's power is real and active till date. What words may not be able to do, the tangible power and demonstration of it many times does. And no, Christians should not fall sick like ANY other person for they are members of Christ's body; his flesh and his bones!! That is why I (for example, cannot be sick). Jesus took upon himself all my sicknesses and diseases and died with it on the cross. Then he woke up to a newness of life (that is not subject to sicknesses or diseases) and told me I too could walk in the same newness of life by his spirit.

James was aware of this that is why he asked- "is there ANY sick among you?" and not "since there are many sick among you". He used the conditional phrase "is there" because it had to be an aberration. The major reason many of God's children still suffer sicknesses is IGNORANCE and nothing more. "they know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in Ignorance" because God through Jesus, has already taken away ALL our infirmities.

The Ebola afflicted doctor said as much

"As I lay in bed in Liberia for the following nine days, getting sicker and weaker each day, I prayed that God would help me be faithful, even in my illness,” he said.“And I prayed that in my life or in my death that he would be glorified. I did not know then, but have learned since, that there were thousands, maybe even millions of people around the world praying for me throughout that week and even till today.“I cannot thank you enough for your prayers and your support, but what I can tell you is that I serve a faithful God who answers prayers." - Dr Kent Brantly

The doctor spoke according to the knowledge that he had. A man said to Jesus- "if you are willing, you can make me whole" Jesus replied "I am willing". Then later he said he only does the works that he saw his father do which means God is in the business of healing his children. When Dr. Kent comes to this knowledge he would see that saying "help me be faithful, even in my illness" was redundant, for God wanted him well.

What will happen to the "elders" in the book of James when they get sick? Who will pray for them?

@the first bolded- true. @the second bolded- false. Job was trying to prove his righteousness to his friends and God. in fact God wasn't pleased with the idea of Job proving his righteousness and faithfulness. See what God told him

Job 40:8 KJV
Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

See Job's response to God's challenge

Job 42:3, 6 KJV
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. [6] Wherefore I abhor myself , and repent in dust and ashes.

Job was restored simply because of God's goodness and mercies which he even shows to unrepentant atheists today though they vehemently deny him.

There's no extra exegesis to this. Satan approached God because of Job; God let Satan afflict Job with death, disease and poverty; God told Satan that Job would not budge; Job held onto his belief in God; God restored Jobs blessings two-fold. Period.

The question is how did Job maintain his faith in God? Job knew that God will deliver him from 6 troubles and even 7 and no evil will touch him and Job said it (Job 5:19), he knew he would laugh at destruction and famine and be unafraid of evil and he said it vv.22. Job was doing what Hebrews 10:23 taught us to do- hold on to the confessions of our faith without wavering because God who made the promise is faithful. He was displaying faith and PATIENCE and therefore he obtained the promises of God. (Hebrews 6:12) There is nothing random about how God acts. That's why he gave us his word to go by while the world grope in darkness.

Everybody uses 'faith' today that its almost difficult to decipher who talks of bible faith. The Chinese by 'faith' and belief built their country from the ruins Mao Zedong met to the superpower they are now. So too UAE.

With 'faith' and some genius, Mark Zuckerberg, a young Jewish atheist built Facebook and became a billionaire in less than 10 years from practically nothing. He simply believed he could do it.

The new age practitioners preach 'faith' which enables them do seemingly miraculous things and experience wonderful achievements.

What the bible calls faith indeed isn't the same as these and its imperative we study to really know and understand it.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of unseen realities.

John D. Rockefeller, a Baptist Christian, believed this, gave tithes and was found always saying that his prayer was to give 100,000 USD to Charity and to live till he was 100 years old. Before he died he gave over 100 Million dollars to charitable works and he slept just before his 98th birthday. He was atleast 30 times richer than Zuckerberg. His life is a testimony.

I hope this post answers Trustman's too.

Luke 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

These two events indicate sick people gathered and then healed. Also not forgetting the pool of Bethesda where sick people gathered in anticipation of divine healing.

trustman:

Candour has done a good job at responding to you on this your post but let me add some more things.



[size=8pt]Lets look at the portion of Scripture you quoted to see who is likely to lead people into deception and who is exhibiting gross ignorance

[size=7pt][/size]

NOWHERE in Joshua 1:8 does it teach “that we are to keep speaking the word of God consistently”. Again you want to use this to justify WoF position on “speaking faith-filled words”, “name it and claim it” and the like.
This is what Joshua 1:8 says – “This book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. ”
You chose to emphasize the ‘mouth’ their but downplayed ‘meditate’ and what those two are supposed to bring about. The key issue is ‘TO DO’. The emphasis is knowing the book of the Law and then doing what it says so that it will bring about the desired result. Note too that as a leader Joshua had to ‘speak’ the content of the book of the Law to the people; not his own words or his own imagined rules. So, “shall not depart from your mouth” has much more wider application than you are trying to make it fit into.




Again NOTHING in Joshua 1:8 remotely suggests that it talks about “First, we speak the word. Next, the speaking causes … …” It is first “meditate” then do. You have to first take in the word of God before application – doing. It is first the internalizing of the word of God that will make Joshua be able to communicate (Speak) it to people.



Very clear from what? Certainly this is not derived from the Joshua 1:8 passage. Because the passage DOES NOT SAY SO.
Almost verbatim from the OT to the NT it is clear that it is God that does things for the believer (whether it is the OT believer or the NT believer) and not that it is the individual’s spoken words (apart from God) that accomplishes things in the life of the believer.




The teaching here expressed in clear words is again “meditates”. The believer here delights in the law of the LORD and meditates on it day and night. It would amount to twisting the scripture to equate “meditate” with “speaking of the word”.
So what do we believe – what the Word says which is “meditate” or what you are trying to make it say? Words have meaning. Words are meant to communicate. No believer is at liberty to make the words given by the Almighty mean something different from what He intended.



Who was Jesus referring to here in Matthew 26: 11 – the poor.
Who were the poor here in Romans 15:26 – the saints or unbelievers?
What do we find in Galatians 2:10? To remember the poor.
What can you glean from James 2: 2-5?
What can you make of James 5: 1-6?
What is unscriptural and demonic is to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among the saints. That would contradict these portions of scripture.
You need to learn to think with the scripture not use some form of philosophy or ‘teachings’ to think out of the scripture.




Where specifically in the Word does it say that poverty, disease, and sicknesses are not from God?
What did Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 tell the Jews?
What did Paul tell the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11:30? Is there mention of being sick there? And as a result of what? Chastening or discipline by who?
Apart from the Epaphroditus case of Phil. 2:27, Timothy had an ailment (1 Timothy 5:23) and Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus (2Timothy 4:20). So what should these tell us?



No one is saying ALL Christians should be poor, far from it. The issue is some Christians will be poor. So the focus in the Christian life is neither riches nor poverty but the spiritual life.
Even though you may not qualify Lazarus as a NT believer (and so not call him Christian) he was certainly a BELIEVER nonetheless. There were believers in the Christ (the Messiah – who came to be known as Jesus Christ) both in the OT as well as in the NT.
To have a place in Abraham’s bosom does not mean Lazarus was poor any longer using worldly standards. That the rich man still looked at him as “poor” (if indeed that is so) when he himself was in torments should be what is laughable, mbaemeka.




John 1: 37 – 39 (note the additional verses) never stated who owned where Jesus stayed. In addition, NO MAN can equate Jesus’ ministry to any other. Trying to use this to justify riches does not hold water.



It will amount to being an ignorant folk to think that giving all you can to the poor out of a WRONG MOTIVE will amount to anything with God.



You saw the Corinthian references on the sick.
What is outright lie and insult to the cross of Jesus is to make it seem that the most it accomplished was physical prosperity for the believer. The most important work of the cross was resolving the sin problem. Any other derived issue pales into a distant second.
Nothing in James said it was an ‘anomaly’ to be sick. Nothing.




Job’s adverse circumstances were PERMITTED by God. He never engaged in ‘speaking and acting his (God’s?) word” before he was delivered from his situation. When God determined that Job had passed the test, he intervened.
The Christian’s reward is NOT ONLY in heaven. He can have some here on earth. BUT the rewards come in far too many ways than to restrict them to ONLY PHYSICAL PROSPERITY, unless your definition of rewards is different from what the Scripture says.



The believer is ALWAYS to TRUST in the Lord, cast all his care upon him, etc. In any circumstances his focus must always be on God and not in himself and what he can speak into existence. Doing otherwise, resorting to any other system is to turn away from the source of TRUE SOLUTION.



In Hebrews 11 even those who in the eyes of the world (and some Christians) or in physical assessment appeared to have lost out were still commended. Why?
Physical evidence that a system or philosophy or whatever works, does not necessarily make it God-approved.

Faith is belief in God and His Word. Faith IS NOT a “great force”, a “universal principle” or the like. Faith starts first and foremost on the inside and God considers the heart to be of greater importance than spoken words.

Any bitterness, envy, jealousy and hatred toward anyone or a Christian brother or sister in particular who happens to differ doctrinally from one’s position is still SIN whether the other person is mistaken in his belief or wrong in his stance. The Christian MUST THEREFORE ensure that he continues to walk in LOVE no matter what the opposition is. Hope your calling others “ignoramus”, etc is not out of bitterness or hatred or any of the other sins you listed?

True promotion for the Christian is unknown to many. Real spiritual advancement is equally not so readily visible. Therefore a Christian’s spiritual progress is not something that can be gauged using physical or material yardstick.

I have answered your questions in my post to Candour. God gave you his word and told you to use his word to prosper and you are telling him you will wait for him instead? That's pride.

As per 1 Corinthians 11:30 please study these verses you post very well before referring me to them. Do you think I don't know all these verses before posting? Ok let us examine what Paul said there:

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Paul was writing to a carnal church in Corinth and was explaining to them why they have many sick members in their midst. Why should he be explaining the reason to them if it was normal and expected that christians could fall sick and die anyhow like mere men?

He was explaining it to them because it was an anomaly to have such and he told them why (some of you on here are guilty if this). He said because Christians were eating the physical body of Jesus but insulting the main body which is the Church. When you create threads on men and women of God and call them names you are not discerning the lord's body. You are eating of the communion unworthily and not that you are unworthy. So I am using this medium to warn you again- refrain from this evil!

That is why vv30 says many of THEM (Corinthians) were sick and many died.

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that. Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth. Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth (Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

Learn to Hagah the word of God!!!

DrummaBoy:

Can you really say with a clear conscience that Jesus, Peter and Paul operated healing schools or anything close to them?

Shall the healing Jesus and his apostles carried out not be the natural outworking of God's power confirming a message; rather than a predetermined exercise?

Please clear answers to the above.

Image123:

Like i said already, the bible records Jesus and Peter healing people who were gathered at a place for that purpose. The pool at Bethesda had sick people gathered and waiting in anticipation to be healed by God. Jesus said that where believers are gathered together IN HIS NAME, He will be there.
Believers today can heal the sick using natural outworking of God's power confirming a message(whatever that means). It matters not whether it is done in a school, room, church, street, university or whatever. If thou can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.

DrummaBoy:

2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

DrummaBoy: Every miracle Jesus did in the bible were borne out of compassion. Not to show he was powerful or anointed. The two times Jesus spoke about "power" were, first of all, his power to forgive sins. Secondly, he spoke of the power he had to lay down his life for sinners to be saved - Prof Segun Areola, Chapel of the Ressurection, University of Ibadan, today.

I thought this statement might be relevant to the discuss so far.

[size=20pt]

BabaGnoni:

There are several distinctness in the way Jesus healed that are not characteristic of healing schools.

First, Jesus healed instantly,

Second, Jesus had no healing schools,

Third, Jesus certainly did no coaching or unverifiable healing,

Fourth, Jesus had no returns nor accusations of fake healing levied against him,


Fifth, Jesus didn't describe or draw attention to the healing
nor use billboards, adverts etc in order to encourage attendance or promote "sales"


Sixth, Jesus never healed the same way twice (i.e. He healed spontaneously. He didn't have a modus operandi and never followed healing set techniques)

[/size]

Image123:

The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy:


Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?

This is an all in one question.

Image123:
Yes, search the scriptures. i'll like to be of help if you don't find.

DrummaBoy:

I have done that, my dear, and found no such scripture that said or implied "Jesus gathered people to heal them" or operated a healing school. If you cannot provide the scripture, we must conclude that you are wrong to say Jesus gathered people for healing services and that the healing school operated by WOF adherents has no foundation in scripture.

Image123:

Not so fast, i'm not the one to bring you to conclusion. Why the urge of 'must conclude' ? Why should your concluded conclusion rest on my provisions?

Image123: Luke 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

These two events indicate sick people gathered and then healed. Also not forgetting the pool of Bethesda where sick people gathered in anticipation of divine healing.

Finally.

I related the train of discuss so far to help the reader comprehend the true meat of the discussion.

I will return to give my submission to the above BTGoG.

DrummaBoy: [size=20pt]
[/size]

Finally.

I related the train of discuss so far to help the reader comprehend the true meat of the discussion.

I will return to give my submission to the above BTGoG.

your train like fasola own. You're older than btgog and btmagog na.

[quote author=mbaemeka]

I have answered your questions in my post to Candour. God gave you his word and told you to use his word to prosper and you are telling him you will wait for him instead? That's pride.

Unfortunately you have really not. Lumping up many issues together ends up obscuring your responses. 
 Maybe when a lot of things are being considered at once it makes it difficult for you to deal with them well. Let's just take this your statement above.
When God gave His word "Ask and you will receive ..." or "When you pray "Pray then like this: ... ... ... And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. " and we ask and we pray do the things we expect to happen just happen on their own? Or do we leave the place prayer with faith in God that as he has promised HE WILL DO IT? In other words do the things we get in life as Christians get to us by some way independent of God or by his direct involvement? Do the words act apart from God? Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride? 
I will respond to the other issues later.

Image123:
I don't understand you.

You didnot want to understand me, you write that you heared Dr. Lake how can you hear a person that is death since 1935.

He was never a Dr. that make his church.

There you write that you have heard this bastard!

Image123:

i'll oblige you and read your book or document when i have the time. i can assure you, i've heard Dr. lake himself and i believe him above the contrary reports, thanks.
The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

Image123:

your train like fasola own. You're older than btgog and btmagog na.

I meant By the Grace of God - BTGoG.

mbaemeka:

Don't call Jesus a liar, call those who sold you the lie that Jesus was homeless liars. Jesus had a house and he lived in Capernum.

John 1:37-39King James Version (KJV)
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.

38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?

39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour

Jesus was able to house Phillip and Andrews in the place where he dwelled.

Galilee was a big city in then Palestine, same with Judea, Samaria, Decapolis etc. Galilee housed towns such as Chorazin, Magdala, Cana, Capernum, Nazareth, Nain etc. Same way Judea encompassed towns such as Hebron, Bethlehem, Bethany, Jerusalem etc. Jesus for example was born in Bethlehem but was taken to Egypt and then brought back to Nazareth (because the new Herod wanted him dead as well in Judea). He was brought up in Nazareth with his folks but when he grew up he moved to Capernum.

I said all that to say this, when studying the map (as can be Googled) it is clear that if anyone is making a journey from Galilee to Judea they would have to pass Samaria or take a circuitous route to bypass it (which is longer). The Jews of Jesus' day had issues with the Samaritans and many of them took the latter option but in Jesus' case he decided to use the Samaritan route.

The distance was quite long and he needed a place to rest before continuing the Journey but the Samaritans refused him a place to stay seeing that he was a Jew and was heading to Jerusalem in Judea. That's why James offered that they called down fire from heaven to kill them to which Jesus rebuked him. It was while passing the villages in Samaria that a man asked to follow Jesus where he was going to and then Jesus replied- "foxes have holes, birds have nest but the son of man has no where to lay his head". The son of man had no where to lay his head in Samaria.

I am not the Ignorant one.

So you could actually decode from John 1:37 onwards that Jesus OWNED a house?

You explanation comes from Luke's account of this episode so I'll take the verses that dealt with it

Luke 9:57-62 KJV
And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. [59] And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

See all the bolded portions. 3 men wanted to go with him but only 1 went back when he heard about "having no place to lay his head". In fact to prove your thesis wrong, it was the very man that indicated "readiness to go withersoever" with the Lord, indicating distance or location wasn't his problem. What he couldn't stand was not having a sure place to lay his head. People in those times trekked long distances so that wasnt the problem. The other two had excuses too which Christ dealt with.

You conclusion that "its because he had no place to lay his head in Samaria" is very wrong and misleading because the man was ready to go beyond Samaria, in fact he was ready to go "withersoever"

- [s]You can help by teaching them that God doesn't want them poor and has made provision through his word for them to prosper.[/s]
- You can help them by giving them aides like start-up money, education, provisions, a job etc

The remaining part of the quote is commendable

The healing school is not for ONLY christians. It is a means to convince Naysayers, scoffers, atheists that God's power is real and active till date. What words may not be able to do, the tangible power and demonstration of it many times does. And no, Christians should not fall sick like ANY other person for they are members of Christ's body; his flesh and his bones!! That is why I (for example, cannot be sick). Jesus took upon himself all my sicknesses and diseases and died with it on the cross. Then he woke up to a newness of life (that is not subject to sicknesses or diseases) and told me I too could walk in the same newness of life by his spirit.

James was aware of this that is why he asked- "is there ANY sick among you?" and not "since there are many sick among you". He used the conditional phrase "is there" because it had to be an aberration. The major reason many of God's children still suffer sicknesses is IGNORANCE and nothing more. "they know not, neither will they understand, they walk on in Ignorance" because God through Jesus, has already taken away ALL our infirmities.

And you keep shying away from giving the answer to why organisers of healing schools like John G Lake, his wife, Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc all battled sickness and died from it.

Were they walking in ignorance too? At least it would prove that "some God's generals" also walked in ignorance and in darkness.

The doctor spoke according to the knowledge that he had. A man said to Jesus- "if you are willing, you can make me whole" Jesus replied "I am willing". Then later he said he only does the works that he saw his father do which means God is in the business of healing his children. When Dr. Kent comes to this knowledge he would see that saying "help me be faithful, even in my illness" was redundant, for God wanted him well.

What will happen to the "elders" in the book of James when they get sick? Who will pray for them?

I think Dr Kent in saying that was in perfect harmony with scriptures.

Romans 14:8-9 KJV
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

1 Thessalonians 5:10-11 KJV
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul was sick, Timothy was sick, Epaphroditus was sick, Trophimus was sick. These were all elders in the faith. Whom do you think prayed for them?

There's no extra exegesis to this. Satan approached God because of Job; God let Satan afflict Job with death, disease and poverty; God told Satan that Job would not budge; Job held onto his belief in God; God restored Jobs blessings two-fold. Period.

The question is how did Job maintain his faith in God? Job knew that God [b]will deliver him from 6 troubles and even 7 and no evil will touch him and Job said it (Job 5:19)[/b], he knew he would laugh at destruction and famine and be unafraid of evil and he said it vv.22. Job was doing what Hebrews 10:23 taught us to do- hold on to the confessions of our faith without wavering because God who made the promise is faithful. He was displaying faith and PATIENCE and therefore he obtained the promises of God. (Hebrews 6:12) There is nothing random about how God acts. That's why he gave us his word to go by while the world grope in darkness.

@the bolded, Job didn't say that. Eliphaz did and it was part of the misrepresentations that made God get angry with him and his 2 friends. If you wish to know, Eliphaz started talking in Job 4:1 and continued till Job 5:27, before Job replied him in Job 6. Meanwhile, see God's conclusion about what Eliphaz and his 2 friends had been saying.

Job 42:7-8 KJV
And it was so , that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath . [8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Their conclusion was that a righteous man never has calamities so Job was unrighteous hence his problems and this made God displeased with them.

If Job had expected a restoration of double, he would never had cursed the day he was born. He was in agony if spirit and body all through that episode but he never doubted God's faithfullness in the midst of it all. His implicit faith in God never wavered like his wife would have wished.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of unseen realities.

John D. Rockefeller, a Baptist Christian, believed this, gave tithes and was found always saying that his prayer was to give 100,000 USD to Charity and to live till he was 100 years old. Before he died he gave over 100 Million dollars to charitable works and he slept just before his 98th birthday. He was atleast 30 times richer than Zuckerberg. His life is a testimony.

I hope this post answers Trustman's too.

Thank God for John D Rockefeller. He was a shrewed, smart and hardworking businessman and it showed in his achievements. Thank God he was a christian too.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F12: Fake healing schools[/size]

I put two questions to Image123 in response to his statement that Jesus and his apostles operated healings schools, therefore forming the basis of modern healing school missions of WOF. The two questions were related and were crafted to help understand if indeed he understood the implication of his statement. These were my questions:

"Can you really say with a clear conscience that Jesus, Peter and Paul operated healing schools or anything close to them?"

In response to that question Image said that Christ and his apostles GATHERED people for healing.

To gain understanding, I pressed further with another question:

"Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?"

To answer it, Image referred me to the scriptures. I know many scriptures that showed Christ and his apostles healing people, but I do not know any where they operated healing school or where they went out to gather people to heal them. So I asked him for the scriptures and he referred me to:

1. Luke 4:40ff
2. Acts 5:15
3. John 5:1ff

Incidentally I know these scriptures well. What I do not know about them is that Christ and his apostle were either holding healing schools there or gathering people to heal them. If these scriptures are seen in the isolation as Image quoted them, a twisted mind can conclude that they are healing schools. If they are seen in the context where they are written, a proper mind will know that those where nothing like the present day WOF healing charade. So let's go to the context. Because of space and not to bore, I will refer you to relevant texts in the context.

[b]
1. Luke 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. 4:15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all. 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son? 4:27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 4:28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 4:31 And came down to Capernaum, a city of Galilee, and taught them on the sabbath days. 4:32 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power. 4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her. 4:39 And he stood over her, and rebuked the fever; and it left her: and immediately she arose and ministered unto them. 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them. 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ. 4:42 And when it was day, he departed and went into a desert place: and the people sought him, and came unto him, and stayed him, that he should not depart from them. 4:43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent. 4:44 And he preached in the synagogues of Galilee.

2. Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. 5:13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. 5:14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

3. John 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 5:2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches. 5:3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 5:5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath. 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

[/b]
This was the follow up question to the first question I asked Image:

"Shall the healing Jesus and his apostles carried out not be the natural outworking of God's power confirming a message; rather than a predetermined exercise?"

Image did not think so. Rather he was convinced that Christ and his apostles were operating healing school and sort to gather people to heal them.

What we saw in the three scenarios was God confirming the message Christ and his apostles were preaching with signs and wonders. Period. These were no healing schools. There is no record in scripture that Jesus and his apostles were gathering people to heal them. What we know for sure, for example, is that Christ even insisted that many miracles he did be kept secret.

I do not subscribe to the position that God no longer heals today. I believe like in the days of Christ and his apostles God still confirms preached messages. Sound messages. I begin to have problems with people when they claim to carry out healing in some sort of school. What is a school? Where people learn. We know of conventional schools where people learn science, art, etc. We know of bible schools, where people learn scriptures. But can we authoritatively say that there is such a thing as a "healing school": where people ostensibly go to learn how to be healed? The question is: did Jesus or his apostles teach people how to be healed? Did they give them healing techniques? Instead, they simply healed people!

Please note that God confirmed the preached word with healing. It assumed that the word preached was sound. Paul shows that Satan also has preachers who preach false doctrine and who also have sign and wonders confirming these doctrines:

[b]

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[/b]
Jesus also said:



Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.



These are the realities before us:

1. Men will preach sound doctrine and God will confirm with signs and wonders, even today.
2. Men will preach false doctrine, and Satan will confirm with lying wonders.

What should the saint do?

Judge them by their doctrine.

Judge them by their fruits.

Christ has also given us another litmus test: these false teachers will be MANY. It will be the prevailing event in churches.

As has been able recounted by trustman and BabaGnoni, these healing schools have not been able to stand the test of scrutiny. Worse still, the people doing the healing preach twisted, perverted and false doctrines. So who is confirming false doctrine? Your guess is as good as mine.

trustman relayed the story by SirJohn about the healing school of Chris Oyakhilome. Another sham. Our own Joagbaje, an assistant to Chris, resumes a self imposed leave from nl to recount a cork and bull story of his healing an Ebola patient in Tanzania. Now not that God cannot heal Ebola but as BBG told us, God has laws and order he himself follows. We all saw the healing of Dr Bratly. While thanking the medical team that attended to him, he was mostly praising God for the healing. Now we know a lot of people have used the same drugs but still died. Dr Bratly has every reason to thank God. But the healing followed an order. God had given a medical group wisdom to produce a drug. With prayers that drug worked. Some are angry that God saved one American and killed 1,200 Africans. No. The African society will rather invest its time, energy and resources on frivolities, their lust and giving to Pastors, tithes and offerings, when they should use their brains and resources to solve their own problems. An epidemic breaks out and quite naturally they will pay for their indolence by dying in thousands.

My thesis here is that the healing school concept is a sham. Its a money making venture and its pure evil. Most times healing never occur. And when they do occur, its just by God's mercies.

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F12: Fake healing schools[/size]

I REST MY CASE ON F12

mbaemeka:

It is on record here and (repeatedly too) that I never refuted the aspect of suffering for the gospel. I am against teachings of sicknesses and poverty (that is unrelated to the gospel) as what that suffering refers to and I am not going to refrain from it as it is very scriptural.

@the bolded, you did. Your acquiescence was an afterthought. Once again, see what you said initially

mbaemeka: God told Paul he was to suffer for the gospel. God didn't tell mbaemeka that he was to suffer for the gospel. God told me to prosper for the gospel. Amen.

Jesus promised them so and some scripture suggests that he may have absolved John from it (John 21:19-23). Bible History let's us know that John was placed in boiling cauldron for hours but he was unhurt and as a result was given the appellation- Saint John "the Divine" and was banished to the Island of Patmos from where he wrote the book of Revelations.

That scripture never suggested such. Its a figment of the imagination of those promoting that idea. There was never a time Christ said John was exempted from death. His life is a testament to God's sovereignty. God simply decided to keep him, maybe to write Revelations. We might never be sure.

Also John's survival of the boiling cauldron is part of why that era was special. Philip teleporting. Paul rising up after being "stoned to death" etc. They indeed did spectacular things.

It might interest you to know that God and not Joshua said that. Also your interpretation of the "book of the law" to refer to the law(s) of Moses is also grossly flawed. The law ALWAYS referred to ALL the books of Moses and wasn't limited to it. As more books from the prophets were given they too were added into the Law. In fact, when the apostles began teaching the gospel of Jesus they did so using the Law which was actually the Pentateuch, Prophets and the Psalms or writings.


John 10:34King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jesus referred to the book of Psalms as the law.

That aside, the Law of Moses comprised of 5 Books which included Deuteronomy (and Chapter 28) which was God's promise to them concerning the blessings in general and in this case prosperity. It was not a works-based admonition because those blessings still apply to the church.

Again (and by so doing Trustman can get my responses to his post) there is no separation or demarcation between the Mouth and Meditate as was used in Joshua 1:8. The Hebrew for the word meditate is Hagah and it means: silent whispering; muttering; talking; roaring. It refers to using the mouth to whisper, mutter, talk and roar the words. This is what we refer to as speaking the word. The same admonition was referred to in Jeremiah with the same word "Hagah" and in Psalms 1:1-3. If you even checked the marginal of a regular KJV they would place an alphabet aside the word meditate and refer to it as a form of talking while cross-referencing you to the book of Joshua 1:8

Also the Verse like I said before was Crystal clear- meditate on the word day and night so that you may observe to do all that is written. You will make your way prosperous and you will have good success. The observing to do was connected to the meditating and this was averred by Jehovah. PLEASE believe him.

Paul taught Timothy about the same things and the Greek for the word Meditate can be understudied too.


1 Timothy 4:15King James Version (KJV)
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Here, Paul says if you meditate on the word and give yourself wholly to it the evidence will be clear to all.

If you had done a good study you would have known all this.

You're correct that God spoke there. However its actually wrong to say when he spoke there, he meant more than the books of the law Moses compiled which is also known as the Pentateuch. Most of the psalms were written by David and he didn't surface until almost 500 years after this statement so it should be very obvious that the laws Isreal meditated on and practiced to get good success all those 500 years had nothing to do with Psalms 1:1-3.

Also by the time Christ walked the earth, more and more things had been added like you said and it had even started being referred to as "the law and the prophets" so he could refer to even Psalms as the law. Distilling from all these books is what gave Isreal of today their 613 laws.

It should interest you that in the prosperity scriptures of deut 28, success was clearly predicated on conformance to all the laws Moses gave and the summary of these laws started from deut 4:44 and ends in deut 27:26 which reads as follows

Deuteronomy 27:26 KJV
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Deut 28:1-13 gives the blessings for conformance while deut 28:14-68 gave the curses and consequences of deviating from these laws and Isreal duly got both at different times.

These laws are not what Paul asked Timothy to meditate on and the profiting he mentioned had nothing to do with money.

The prosperity the Psalmist referred to is Prosperity, Period.

As per the words of Agur he is free to express himself as such. Abraham and Isaac were more prosperous and their prosperity didn't make them deny God or inveigle his name. We should learn to divide the word of truth properly so as not to be found as poor workmen.

Paul prospered in the gospel. He wasn't prosperous in financial terms. Prosperity isn't always about having material or financial goods.

If Agur is free to express himself, then John too was free to wish his friend prosper and be in health as in 3John 2. John wrote a letter to his friend and made a good wish for him. God didn't speak there and ask anyone to make it a doctrine.

There are principles that God has established on earth- laws, if you please. If anyone (Saint or sinner) is found observing them they will receive the results of such actions. One of them is giving. If a sinner has a habit of giving he will always have and if a christian is selfish he will always lack. That's what Jesus meant.

Some Atheists help more people than many selfish Christians who do not give. It is no surprise that some of them prosper. It is a principle same with Studying for exams. If an unbeliever studies he will excel and if a christian doesn't he won't. That's why Christians are admonished to meditate on the word. As we do so we begin to "do" all that is written e.g Give, study etc.

If they're rules for life and it works for even atheists, why make it look like it only works for Christians? So do you agree that a sinner who gives but mocks God, sits in the seat of the seat of the scornful etc will still prosper as long as he's obedient to these giving laws?

Does that mean Psalm 1:4-6 is suspended by these immutable laws?

Mr A doesn't have money to pay his rent yet he is a tongue-talking Christian. Of course, he will not give anything to the work of the ministry because he is poor and has nothing to give. Mr B has money to pay his rent in Ikoyi but decides to live in Obalende so he can have something tangible to give towards God's work. Mr B should be commended and Mr A should meditate on the word and prosper so he can be like Mr B. That's the 'contradiction' I was trying to make and that's what I meant by "I too suffer lack from time to time because of a need or the other in God's house". That's what the early Christians did.

There's no basis for saying the Christians became poor for the gospel sake except you're saying they were prevented from making money because of persecution. At least this was the case of the Macedonian Christians

2 Corinthians 8:2 KJV
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

As for working, making money to be able to assist the needy, them I'm in agreement. The scripture below tells us that

Ephesians 4:28 KJV
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

How could it possibly be? Sicknesses, poverty and death came as a result of the entrance of sin. If Sin as a nature is taken away then the consequences should have been too. Now if people who have their sins taken away still find themselves sinning "occasionally" does it mean the sin wasn't taken away to begin with? Whose duty is it to stay away from sin? Do you think it is possible to stay away from the acts of sin without the concomitant consequences?

Physical death also came as a result of sin, has death been stopped? Pain and labour during pregnancy also came as a result of sin, have christian women stopped screaming of pain when dilating for child birth? How come hardened sinners who have not yet had their sin problem dealt with prospering and having "laws of giving" work for them?

I believe I have explained what the early church did. They were "poor for the gospel's sake" and not "poor for the sake of life's vicissitudes". The latter represents the dangerous group. A poor man cannot help himself and will become a burden to others; a poor man's wisdom will be despised; the rich will always rule over the poor; the gospel will not move swiftly without the prosperity of the proponents; Jesus' death made us rich etc.

Why do you think Satanic songs do better than Word-based songs? Sinners will always use their prosperity to propagate what they believe in, and the church is admonished to do same.

You're wrong. The Christians in Judaea became candidates for charity because of the problems associated with living on this cursed earth

Acts 11:28-30 KJV
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. [29] Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: [30] Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Bad things happen, and it happens to Christians too. Pls stop disparaging folks who have been dealt harshly by life. You mock their creator so doing. There is no where the bible said or insinuated that "they were dangerous to the gospel" and you have no right to say that

If any gospel music doesn't sell, its because the world doesn't like to hear the truth. Theres nothing to worry about because the world never likes truth. I'll be more worried about a gospel CD that can even serve as an alternative dancehall item.

I am eschewing the urge to make a very long post. Let me end here and continue on a separate post.

I understand

nora544:

You didnot want to understand me, you write that you heared Dr. Lake how can you hear a person that is death since 1935.

He was never a Dr. that make his church.

There you write that you have heard this bastard!

lol, i thought nanny had the temper.
You can hear someone by reading him or reading from him. Like you're SAYING things(words) with your typed posts.

Image123 said that Jesus operated healing schools? woah,

DrummaBoy:

I meant By the Grace of God - BTGoG.

better

The Healthiest City in the WORLD

There are supposedly 622 locations of healing rooms throughout the world. They want to be in every major city of the US. One is coming near you! As of Dec. 2006 over 20,000 DHT's (DIVINE HEALING TECHNICIANS) have been trained.

Lake had his theology taught to others, he considered anyone who went to doctor a heathen. Lake was preaching Divine health not just divine healing.

On everyone of their websites we find the same quotes that insinuate something phenomenal happened because of all these healings of Lake in the city of Spokane. Some say it was the healthiest city in the United states, others say “in the world.” This is quite a claim all pointing to one man. I have gathered just a few of the many examples.

“Between 1915 and 1920, in the Healing Rooms in the Rookery Building in Spokane, Washington, there were over 100,000 documented healings which led to the city being named the 'healthiest city in the U.S.' He then established a similar work in Portland, Oregon with similar results which also attracted widespread attention.” (http://www.ihiministries.com/jglm.html

John G. Lake ministered in Spokane from 1914 until 1935. Under his ministry there were documented, 100,000 healings. United States government declared Spokane, the healthiest city in the world. (http://homepage.mac.com/richardsonlau/Piggrunts/C1196424281/E20050905173452/index.html)

Documentation means that 100,000 people were diagnosed by a doctor as being ill before they went to the Healing rooms. This doctor has records of their visit[s], they are then diagnosed and their condition is recorded by a doctor after the healing happens. Unfortunately, you cannot find where these 100,000 documents are. That would be a lot of paperwork to keep all these years. Did Lake bring these with him when he went away from Spokane? People love to repeat a good report without ever making sure they are telling the truth. So these stories have traveled around the world in the last 85 years and no one even knows where they were hatched from.

“Some declared that Dr. Lake, through his ministry of divine healing, had made Spokane the healthiest city in the world. This, of course, was similar to a documented report that came out of Washington, D.C., some years earlier regarding Zion, Illinois, during the peak days of John Alexander Dowie's ministry (The Healer: Dr. John Graham Lake

Peter Wade states: "According to government statistics, between the years of 1915-1920, Spokane, Washington, was the 'healthiest city in the world', because of the ministry of John G. Lake. The mayor of Spokane held a public commemoration to honor his effort" ("God's Generals" by Roberts Liardon, p.189).

Sedona Arizona “The U.S. Government declared Spokane the healthiest city in the world.” (http://www.solidrockchurchofsedona.com/SRC-testhealingrooms1.htm

Ely cathedral centre Under his ministry 100,000 healings were documented. Washington D.C. proclaimed Spokane the healthiest city in the world.” (http://www.elyhealingrooms.com/mambo/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

The healing rooms operated in Spokane Washington from 1915 to 1920 and during that 5 year period over 100,000 documented healings were recorded. The healing rooms were so successful that Spokane was referred to as “the healthiest city in America” (http://www.healingroomsbham.org/history-of-the-healing-rooms.html

So many healings and miracles were taking place under Lakes ministry that he was even arrested at one point for "practicing medicine without a license"! But a time came when the federal government voted Spokane the healthiest city in America because of Lakes Healing Rooms ministry! (http://www.healingrooms.co.uk/healing_rooms/lake.htm)

The claims are widely propagated- no wonder people have such a high view of Lake. However if we look closer and examine what is being said it does not fit, there is revision going on. Spokane like any other city in the US had a problem with tuberculosis.

CONCORD – “An international healing ministry is coming to Concord as Faith Covenant Church opens its Healing Room Ministry next week.
Rev. Donna Wise, senior pastor of Faith Covenant said “Back in the early 1900s, John G. Lake established healing rooms in Spokane, Washington”. The ministry to the sick brought about thousands of healings, she said.“There were so many miraculous healings that hospitals closed down.”

This is an interesting scenario considering that Lake was healing people of all kinds of sicknesses including tuberculosis- was any hospital shut down because of Lake? Remember they claim he healed 100,000 people. If these were people who lived there, it would be the majority of the population. In 1920 the total population of Spokane was 141, 289. 1920 the population of Washington state was 1,356,621. Source: U.S. Bureau of Census. The Washington Post May 8, 1920 Spokane, Wash., ranking as forty-eighth city of the country in 1910, had a decrease of 198 in population in the past ten years, and now has 104,204 people, the census bureau announced yesterday. (newssearch archive) So lets say Spokanes population was between these two census'

This hospital that was built the year lake moved to Spokane was for the common problem that was in America. “In 1915 Edgecliff Tuberculosis Hospital opens in the Spokane Valley. Adults at the 200-patient hospital are housed in small cottages. A children's unit is added two years later. (100 years of Valley life A Spokane Valley timeline) http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news/live/body.asp?ID=library%5Cincorporation%5Cvalleytimeline

“The most prominent and regionally oriented of these hospitals were Fairland (1911) in Seattle; Mountain View (1914 – the first county sanatorium in the state) in Lakeview, Pierce County; Edgecliff (1915) in Spokane; and Aldercrest (1918) in Snohomish, the latter three resulting from the 1913 legislation. http://www.lib.washington.edu/specialcoll/findaids/docs/papersrecords/AmerLungAssocOfWA5271.xml

Stats on Tuberculosis “the highest rates in 1919 are for BuEalo (59.2), Jersey City (33.7), St. Paul and St. Louis (each. 33.4), Providence (32.5), and Detroit (32). Of these six cities the rates for Buffalo, Jersey City, and St. Paul are higher in 1919 than in any earlier year of the series 1911 to 1919. The cities with strikingly low rates are Spokane (1.9), Columbus (3), New Orleans (4.4), and Cambridge (4.6); with the exception of Spokane these cities also show lower rates in 1919 than in any earlier year shown in the table”

(MORTALITY Statistics http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/data/intro%201919.pdf.)

In other words Spokane’s rate of Tuberculosis from 1911-1919 did not change. Tuberculosis was the third leading cause of death in America at this time.

I didn’t bother looking up other diseases since this was the one of the three the country was most concerned about then. After 1921 it stayed consistently from 86,000- 88,000 until; the 1930’s. Apparently the introduction of pasturized milk helped to bring down the stats of TB in Washington as well as other states (Along with the x-ray machine). In 1929 The research committee of the national Lung Association researched new techniques with x-ray machines to diagnose lung disease. The rate steadily declined after 1930’s as it did everywhere else. In 1900 the rate had been 191 per 100k. The reason it declined- better sanitation and treatment at TB hospitals.( http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/lead1900_98.pdf)

Spokane had the same statistics as the rest of the nation with TB.

"According to government statistics, between the years of 1915-1920, Spokane, Washington, was the 'healthiest city in the world', because of the ministry of John G. Lake. The mayor of Spokane held a public commemoration to honor his effort" ("God's Generals" by Roberts Liardon, p.189). (http://peterwade.com/archive/pw114.shtml)

Could it be that it was the mayor that made this statement?. A mayor is not the United States Government but a city/ state official. So this is a stretch even if it is true. But is it true?

Can the mayor of Spokane claim it is the healthiest city in the US and the World at the same time? This could only his opinion not an official statement from the government. This gets a bit distasteful to hear a ministry use this unproven insinuation as an advertisement. Anyone can say anything- the problem is whether they have documentation. If it was the Mayor how did he get his statistics. I cannot find any comparisons or statistics of each state ort city in America, much less the world. How would he know this in 1920? Maybe someone can find these, after researching I cannot.

Here is one of the quotes from his biography:

“Lake, who had trained to be a Methodist minister, went on to become a healing evangelist. He had borrowed the concept of healing rooms from his friend and mentor John Alexander Dowie. Lake arrived in Spokane in 1914 and in a short time established healing rooms in the Rookery Office building. Over 100 thousand people were reportedly healed. Government statistics proclaimed Spokane the “healthiest city in the world.”

trustman: Unfortunately you have really not. Lumping up many issues together ends up obscuring your responses. 
 Maybe when a lot of things are being considered at once it makes it difficult for you to deal with them well. Let's just take this your statement above. 
When God gave His word "Ask and you will receive ..." or "When you pray "Pray then like this: ... ... ... And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. " and we ask and we pray do the things we expect to happen just happen on their own? Or do we leave the place prayer with faith in God that as he has promised HE WILL DO IT? In other words do the things we get in life as Christians get to us by some way independent of God or by his direct involvement? Do the words act apart from God? Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride? 

The same Jesus that said when you PRAY say this amd that is the same Jesus that said SPEAK to the MOUNTAIN and not SPEAK to GOD about the mountain.

What we see here is you lumping everything into PRAYER and wondering why you don't receive answers to all your prayers. When God didn't tell you to ONLY pray.

John 14:14 says if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Who is the 'I' that will do it? It can't be Jesus himself because because he already said "the Father who dwells in him does the works" vv10. And we know the father is always on his throne because Jesus said I go to my father vv12.

So we can deduce who Jesus is referring to as the Father in Him and that is the Holy Spirit because he responds to Jesus' name vv26. Which means Jesus wasn't teaching about prayer here because in Prayer we pray to the Father in Jesus' name John 16:23.

To leave us without any doubt that he was referring to prayer in Chapter 16 he explained himself better in vv26 saying that we don't even ask him to ask the father on our behalf.

NOW with this knowledge you can understand why Peter and John didn't pray to heal the man at the beautiful gate. They did what Jesus taught them in John 14. Much later when persecution broke out they then prayed to God to cause miraculous signs to happen through them Acts 4: 29-30.

The Devil Who Heals’: Fraud and Falsification in the
Evangelical Career of John G Lake, Missionary to
South Africa 1908–1913
Barry Morton
Ivy Tech Community College, USA; University of South Africa

ABSTRACT
An analysis of the missionary career of John G Lake shows that the initial spread of
Pentecostalism and Zionism in southern Africa was facilitated by the systematic use of
fraud and deception. After having fled from Zion City in America in 1907 to escape
popular justice, Lake and his missionary party introduced to South Africa an array of
faith healing techniques used by the original Zionist John Alexander Dowie. They used
these and other forms of deception to build a unified Zionist/Pentecostal movement.
Additionally, they trained a number of influential African Zionists to use these methods – a
factor that further contributed to the rapid spread of this new religious movement.

Keywords: John G Lake, South Africa, Pentecostalism, Zionism, faith healing, missions

The American evangelist John G Lake (1870-1935) was a major player in the early
development of both Zionism and Pentecostalism in South Africa. His 1908–13 mission
introduced both the speaking of tongues (glossolalia) in South Africa as well as the use of
‘Faith Healing’ practices in worship services. He was also the organizer and leader of the
Apostolic Faith Mission (AFM), which successfully incorporated most of South Africa’s
Zionists and Pentecostals under a single umbrella. Simply put, Lake was instrumental in
spreading this fusion of Zionism/Pentecostalism that is unique to southern Africa. If we
are to accept rough estimates of the current size of the offspring of this movement, then
around half of southern African Christians today are adherents of it.1 Beyond any doubt,
Lake played a decisive role in the spreading of this ‘second evangelization’.2

Historical scholarship on Lake and also the Zionist/Pentecostal movement has been
relatively scarce, despite the fact that it was by far the most successful southern African
religious movement of the twentieth century. Much of the writing on the Zionists (such as
the classic works by Sundkler3) has been sociological/anthropological in nature. In recent
years a biography and other scholarship produced by scholars writing from a Pentecostal
or Evangelical perspective have been fairly thorough in explicating the development
of Zionist ritual and theology,4 as well as the diffusion of the movement from its early
centers on the Rand and the Highveld.5 This paper will not replicate this material, but
instead will focus on a far more sinister side of the ‘second evangelization’. To date,
the Zionist enterprise has largely been treated with kid gloves by academics. Secular
observers such as Jean Comaroff have been influential in labeling the Zionists as a
‘resistance’ movement, ‘a dissenting discourse’ that enabled southern Africans to mitigate
the sufferings imposed by capitalism, colonialism, and apartheid.6 Religious writers have
tended to view the spread of Zionism as divinely inspired, and have sometimes gone so
far as to assert that various Zionist leaders were directly sent by God to southern Africa.7
Once there, they are credited with having orchestrated massive healing campaigns using
nothing but the laying of hands to cure disease and infirmity of all kinds, to raise the
dead, and to perform miracles of all kinds.8 Thus, as Landau has noted about Zionist and
other ‘African-Initiated Churches’ (AICs): ‘Both secular and academic scholarship tend
to judge AICs as innately positive developments. AICs are seen in elevated terms, as
symbolical theaters or places to perform wellness, and as centers for social networks.’9

All this writing on Lake and the early Zionists has not, however, taken up the way in which
the movement was actually first organised and disseminated. John G. Lake was, simply
put, a fraud (or ‘con man’ or ‘false prophet’, depending on one’s outlook) throughout
his entire career, a preacher who consciously used deception both to gain tithe-paying
adherents, and to defraud and control them once they were in his organization. In his later,
post-South Africa career, for instance, Lake was arrested both for peddling worthless
securities to members of his Oregon congregations, and also for impersonating both
police officers and a ‘Mohammedan’ mind-cure healer named ‘Abdul Ben Shinandar’.
Although Lake claimed to be able to use ‘Divine Healing’ to cure all manner of disease
and disability, at times his ‘cures’ were also exposed as frauds in the American press.10
In the literature on South African Pentecostalism and Zionism these unsettling sides of
Lake’s personality, often reported in the press in his day, have simply been ignored.11
Nor has anyone examined whom he trained and influenced in these arts, even though he
was closely associated with some of the most influential Zionist leadersin South Africa.
What this paper will argue is that Lake learned the religious con in John Alexander
Dowie’s original Zionist church in the decade prior to his South African mission.12 When
these activities are placed alongside the fictitious religious persona that he crafted for
himself, it becomes clear that he was involved in an array of deceptions before, during,
and after his South African mission. Whether Lake actually believed in the religious
messages that he propagated is impossible to tell. This was a question that also baffled
John Dowie’s detractors during the latter’s lifetime.13 Even in the event that Lake was
a fervent Pentecostal at heart, nevertheless conscious deception lay at the center of the
religious activities of which he took charge.

Lake’s activities at the time he led the Zionist/Pentecostal movement seriously call into
question the characterization of the movement as ‘resistance’ to colonialism, while also
making a mockery of its allegedly divine inspiration. But before any revision of the
nature of the Zionists can be attempted, it is necessary to lay out in considerable detail
the nature of Lake’s schemes – schemes that influential Zionists such as Edward Lion and
Isaiah Shembe would utilize to build up their own followings.

THE ‘MIRACULOUS’ JOURNEY OF THE LAKE PARTY TO
SOUTH AFRICA EXAMINED

There is no better way to get a taste for Lake’s effrontery than to examine the narratives
of his party’s journey from Indianapolis to South Africa in 1908. Although the events
attending Lake’s journey have frequently been cited as evidence of divine support for
the arrival of the Pentecost in Africa, we can in fact draw a more sinister conclusion
– that fraud and misrepresentation were central to the early spread of Zionism and
Pentecostalism in South Africa.

In late 1907, Lake, Tom Hezmalhalch, and J.O. Lehman, all supposedly endowed
with the gift of tongues, emerged as the unofficial leaders of the fledgling Indianapolis
Pentecostal community. All were new arrivals in the city, each using the peripatetic and
fluid nature of the early Pentecostal church to provide cover for histories they preferred
to obscure. But following the imprisonment of the local leader Glenn Cook, after he
nearly beat a member of his brass band to death, the three new arrivals took control of a
hall in the city center where local Pentecostals gathered. Rather than remain long in the
Midwest, the three soon received the imprimatur of global Pentecostalism’s unofficial
leader, William Seymour, to raise funds for a missionary party to South Africa. To this
end, they organized and advertised a conference in late January 1908. Lehman, who
claimed to have spent five years in South Africa as a missionary, made an impression
by translating a woman’s glossolalic utterings as being direct communication to the
assembled ‘Saints’ from God in isiZulu!14 Following the end of the conference, the group
received the necessary funding for the mission. As Lake later recollected:
One day during the following February my preaching partner said to me, ‘John, how much
will it cost to take our party to Johannesburg, South Africa?’ I replied, ‘Two thousand dollars’.
He said, ‘If we are going to Africa in the Spring, it is time you and I were praying for the
money’. I said, ‘I have been praying for the money ever since New Year. I have not heard from
the Lord or anyone else concerning it’. He added, ‘Never mind, let’s pray again’. A few days
later he returned from the post office and threw out on the table four $500 drafts saying, ‘John,
there is the answer. Jesus has sent it. We are going to Africa
The Lake party had seventeen members, including three other missionaries, wives, and
children. The group paid $25 each for their third-class steamship tickets to Cape Town,
a price that included free meals.16 This would have left $1575 over for the party to get
established in South Africa. According to Lake, though, this was not the case, since the
entire group had no more than $3.50 left over when it departed from Indianapolis!17 As aresult of this alleged penury, Lake was able to convince other passengers to buy his sister
a train ticket to her home town and to pay for the party’s laundry bills. Lake was also
successful in getting another large bill paid off by an unwary mark:
I knew that just as soon as we arrived at Capetown there would be dock fees and transfer
accounts and hotel bills, etc, right away. Mrs. Lake and I held the matter steadfast before the
Lord, and before we left the ship, while it was yet at the docks at Capetown, before the gang
planks were put down, a passenger touched me on the shoulder and called me to one side. He
handed me an American Express order for $200, saying, ‘Boy, the Lord told me to give you
that, and He has been telling that for the last two and a half weeks.’ It paid all my expenses and
landed us in Johannesburg.
So although his party would appear to have been fairly well-financed, Lake from the start
presented it as being without funds and hence in desperate need of immediate donations
to continue. This was the message put through not only to fellow ship passengers, but
also to the wider Pentecostal community that was contributing to the venture. It was to be
a consistent theme of Lake’s South African ministry. Nor should we be surprised about
Lake’s chicanery on steamship voyages. John Alexander Dowie, the original Zionist faith
healer whose church had trained Lake as a religious leader, admitted under oath in court
to defrauding steamship companies in order to reduce his travel expenses. Nor did he
deny boasting about it to his associates either.

LAKE’S BUSINESS CAREER EXAMINED
A major part of Lake’s religious aura was his alleged decision to abandon a lucrative
business career in late 1907 in order to become a Pentecostal evangelist. This was a
myth he used primarily to create legitimacy for his leadership role in various Pentecostal
communities. It would also appear that these tales stirred up a sense of awe and wonder
amongst credulous audiences.
Lake’s claims about his early (pre-1904) business career were not nearly as exaggerated
as those he made about his 1904-7 activities. He maintained that as a young man he moved
to the Chicago suburb of Harvey to found and publish the Harvey Citizen newspaper in
1891. After a few years he then returned to his hometown of Sault Ste Marie, MI in
1896, where he founded the Soo Times and developed a ‘lucrative real estate business.’
Following these successful ventures, he moved in 1901 to Dowie’s new utopia, Zion City,
Illinois, where he claimed to have been in charge of the latter’s construction department.
All these claims about his early business career are false. Instead, there is clear evidence
that he spent this time as a contractor and roofer. His contracting activities were always
small-scale, and receive only occasional mention in local newspapers. Lake did not
bid on public contracts, and also did not advertise his services in the newspapers.
Rather, he refurbished existing properties, and his real-estate activities were confined
to what we would today refer to as ‘house-flipping’. As a result of buying dilapidated
properties, fixing them up, and selling them, Lake made a modest income and moved
regularly.21 Turning to Lake’s claims about his journalistic career, it is clear that he had
no involvement in either newspaper that he claimed to have founded.22 Nor was Lake in
charge of construction in Zion City, as he maintained, but was instead a mere repairman
in the department. 23
Once this period working for Dowie’s construction department came to an end, Lake
maintained that he moved to downtown Chicago in 1904 and quickly turned himself into
a wealthy businessman. Working as a real estate investor and salesman, Lake claimed to
have made $2,500 in his first day of work, and had put $100,000 in the bank by the end
of 1905. This money was made on his own, as well as for the business financier Jim Hill.
After this initial success, Lake was asked by a consortium of wealthy capitalists to form
a trust of three large life-insurance companies and was given a salary of $50,000 a year.
With this fortune and with these connections he became a millionaire, and was also able
to purchase a seat on the Chicago Board of Trade.24
Of course, none of the story checks out in any way. Even Lake’s apologist biographer
has noted, ‘no evidence outside of Lake’s own assertions has been found to verify Lake
had any involvement with these financiers and industrialists.’25 What the record shows
is that Lake never left his residence in Zion City at the time he was allegedly making
his name in Chicago, and he remained in Zion City until moving to Indianapolis. Lake,
though, did quit his job in Zion City, and after 1905 worked in Waukegan (a neighboring
town) as a salesman for a prominent local real estate speculator, E.V. Orvis.26 In addition
to hawking Orvis’s properties, Lake also sold fire and life insurance for the People’s Life
Assurance Society. As an evangelist, Lake maintained that he had founded People’s Life
Assurance himself with the backing of an array of Chicago’s leading industrialists. In fact
it was a small company founded by other people.27 So whereas Lake portrayed himself
later as having worked out of fancy office buildings in Chicago, he actually operated
out of modest office space in downtown Waukegan. He clearly was not wealthy. He
rarely featured in the local press, although individuals such as his boss E.V. Orvis were
covered constantly in the social and business sections of the local newspapers. It was also
commonly known among the Zionists who their wealthiest members were, and Lake was
never named among them.28 He was simply an ordinary, small-town insurance salesman

image123 [size=18pt]Swimming in Lake Exaggeration
John Lake and the Healing rooms
[/size]
Many have a romantic view of these healers, especially John Lake. Lake is called by some the most powerful healing evangelist of all time- which seems to be a title that should not be given to any man. The Healing Room ministry is based on the teachings of John G. Lake. When tested you will find much of it is NOT based on the Word of God but a man’s wrong interpretation of the word of God.

Lake was born in Canada March 8, 1870, when he was 16 he moved to the US. He came to faith at a Salvation Army meeting that same year. It is said that he received understanding on healing from an American Indian (John Lake Ministries- www.jglm2.atomicshops.com/whoisjglm.html) .

We are told that eight of his 16 brothers and sisters died of various diseases. Lake was introduced to John Alexander Dowie’s ministry in 1898. It is claimed that he experienced his own miraculous healing of his childhood rheumatoid arthritis, and saw his sister’s cancer and brother’s blood disease under the ministry of Dowie.

We read that he wanted to bring his sister who was dying to Dowie’s Healing Home in Chicago but it was late, so he telegraphed Dowie pleading for prayer. Dowie telegraphed back: “Hold on to God. I am praying. She will live.” That statement caused Lake to wage a spiritual attack on the power of death to not take another loved one– and we are told within the hour his sister was completely healed.

Unfortunately there is more than one story on his first wife’s illness being healed. We are told Lake's wife was healed through Dowie's prayer of faith. This seems to have happened years before he met Dowie.

Yet we are told in another story, His new wife also became sick and was on the verge of dying (April 28, 1898) and he stood his ground and would not allow it. His wife of Jennie battled for breath in her final hours when Lake finally put his foot down. He would not tolerate the enemy stealing away the mother of his children. He determined to believe God’s Word as it was revealed to him for her healing and at 9:30 a.m. he contended for her life in prayer upon which she rose up healed, praising the Lord in a loud voice. News then spread of Jennie’s healing, and Lake was sought after for his healing anointing.

This idea of the Devil claiming his wife is problematic in that believers are under the sovereign care of Jesus, it is he who has the keys of death and hell. No believer will die unless God himself allows it. The book of Job gives us insight on how God may allow the devil to afflict us but it is only by his permission, the Devil is not running around doing whatever he wants, his power and ability has to answer to God first.

Lake then began a study of divine healing. Lake moved his family to Zion, IL, in 1901, “For the purpose of studying divine healing so that can I learn it and teach it.” Lake learned healing under Alexander Dowie.

Lake’s involvement with Alexander Dowie is problematic. Dowie’s focus on healing was more than extreme, he insisted that those who prayed to be healed must relinquish their medication for faith. Lake also believed, "...one could only be healed in Dr. Dowie's Healing Home." http://www.christianhistory.org/lake.html Christian Historical Preservation Society. John G. Lake: A Man of Healing.

Most downplay the sheer eccentric ministry of Dowie, who had many doctrinal abnormalities. He founded a large commune called Zion City in the North Chicago area in the early 1900s (the real Zion is in Israel). Zion city was to be the "New Jerusalem" and would be the capital of the world. Dowie stated: "the starting point of the restoration, the city from which God would personally direct the affairs of his kingdom." The Prophet and His Profits, The Century Magazine, Oct. 1902, p. 941). While Lake was there he was learning from him and became an elder in his Zion Catholic Apostolic church. Dowie was a self-proclaimed healer, apostle and prophet who said he came in the spirit of Elijah. In 1901 he even claimed he was Elijah, the restorer, 3 years later told his 1,000 followers in his city to expect the full restoration of apostolic Christianity (much like Peter Wagner’s group today). He believed he was chosen as the first apostle of the end- times church. Dowie went further off theologically as the years went by and established “Divine Healing Homes.” He invited the sick and crippled to come for healing ‘as his private guests. They were to renounce doctors, medication, alcohol, etc. He explained to them that all illness was the work of the devil; their cure would come from God only by his request.

In 1905 Dowie suffered a stroke which changed everything. By 1906 both his health and following declined, he lost his community of Zion; some say there was financial mismanagement. Dowie died in 1907. The influence of Dowie on Lakes ministry is evident. Because of this, and other held teachings the amount of miraculous acts of this man are brought into question.

Lake had sought God hard for the baptism of the Holy Spirit and tells us that after nine months the power of God come upon him (1907). This is a wrong Pentecostal view, we are all baptized in the Spirit when we are saved, we receive subsequent fillings. The Holy Spirit can come upon us and often does as we step out in faith in service to the Lord. It is not something we must strive for. God promises to give his Holy Spirit to those who obey him (Acts 5:32).

Here is how Lake describes it: "I prayed for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit for nine months, and if a man ever prayed honestly, and sincerely in the faith, I did. Finally one day I was ready to throw up my hands, and quit. I said, 'Lord, it may be for others, but it is not for me. You just cannot give it to me.' I did not blame God. One night a gentleman by the name of Pierce said, 'Mr. Lake, I have been wishing for a long time you would come over, and we would spend a night in prayer together. We have been praying for the Baptism for a whole year and there is not one of us baptized yet. Brother, I do not believe that you are either, so we can pray for one another." I was so hungry to pray, so I went with all intentions of praying for the rest, but I had not been praying five minutes until the light of God began to shine around me, I found myself in a center of an arc of light ten feet in diameter, the whitest light in all the universe. So white! Oh how it spoke of purity. The remembrance of that whiteness, that wonderful whiteness, has been the ideal that has stood before my soul, of the purity of the nature of God ever since.”

"Then a Voice began to talk to me out of that light. There was no form. And the Voice began to remind me of this incident, and that incident of disobedience to my parents, from a child; of my obstinacy, and dozens of instances when God brought me up to the line of absolutely putting my body, soul, and spirit upon the altar forever” (pp. 16-20 'John G. Lake - Apostle to Africa', by Gordon Lindsay).

Lake finally had a spiritual experience that CHANGED HIS LIFE- he called it the baptism of the spirit. But no one in the Bible describes it in these details. In fact, we are warned of Satan coming as angel of light, a minister of righteousness, there are too many stories of this same light being a different revelation to Joseph Smith and others. What is uncanny is the similarity of Williams Branham's experience with a light. It seems that there is a consistency with men who exhibit these great supernatural powers- this light.

“I found that my life began to manifest in the varied range of the gifts of the Spirit. I spoke in tongues by the power of God, and God flowed through me with a new force. Healings were of a more powerful order. Oh, God lived in me; God manifested in me; God spoke through me. My spirit was energized. I had a new comprehension of God's will, a new discernment of spirit, and a new revelation of God in me.”

When visiting a sick lady at her home: The Spirit said, 'I have heard your prayers, I have seen your tears. You are now Baptized in the Holy Spirit.' Then currents of power began to rush through my being from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. The shocks of power increased in rapidity, and voltage. As these currents of power would pass through me, they seemed to come upon my head, rush through my body, and through my feet into the floor... (ibid. pp. 16-20).

This description is similar when one experiences the Kundalini force through yoga and meditiation. These same descriptions are found with those who have been attending meetings of Toronto, Brownsville and Rodney Brownes (testimony) meetings.

"Then a new wonder manifested. My nature became so sensitized, that I could lay hands on any man, or woman, and tell what organ was diseased, and to what extent, and all about it. I tested it. I went into hospitals where physicians could not diagnose a case, touched a patient, and instantly I knew the organ that was diseased, its extent, condition, and location.”

Powers like these have to be questioned especially when we know the belief system Lake was trained under and what he himself believed (we will get to this). Lake’s life is surrounded with grandiose claims of “beyond apostolic miracles” and this is where it is hard to distinguish the truth from fiction.

Lake decided to go to Africa. Some say he had no visible means of support, and was miraculously provided every step of the way. Others say Lake prospered in the business world as a real estate agent and later a insurance executive and acquired much wealth (he had a wage of $50,000 a year that he left behind). As with a number of events in his life, we have at least two different stories.

Vinson Synan, writes of John G. Lake’s Pentecostal theology being brought too Africa: “In April 1908, he led a large missionary party to Johannesburg where he began to spread the Pentecostal message throughout the nation.” Another account states he went with only four other workers and his family. These disputed facts are not isolated incidences.

His first wife (Jennie) died six months after they arrived in South Africa in 1908. Lakes wife is said to have died of overwork and malnutrition, which seems to fit the story of their not being always provided with sufficient food to live on. He stayed there for four more years raising 7 children with his sisters help. We are told in 1912, after four years of ministry in Africa, having produced 1,250 preachers, 625 congregations (some say 700), and 100,000 converts. “Miracles and healings such as had not been seen in almost 2000 years became almost commonplace” (http://www.jglm2.atomicshops.com/whoisjglm.html).

That’s quite a feat in 4 years- that would be a preacher a day under him and a new congregation every two days. Well if you want to believe this you can. I wonder what kind of quality preachers these would be. Where did he find all these people? When Paul taught the Ephesians he went through the whole counsel of God, he was there with them for three years to teach them correctly. Anyone who has trained people for pastoral ministry or planted churches knows it is not something done quickly. All we need to do is look at the New Testament examples to see that churches were not made quickly and in great numbers. With Lake, again, we have what I believe is a greater exaggeration, not a greater work. There are too many different stories of what transpired and the numbers are not consistent

After Lake’s first wife died, he was contacted by a woman with a bad eye. Lake described the "Spirit" coming over her while she was sitting in a chair and:

"She arose from her chair, her eyes quite shut, and came in my direction. I got up and moved my chair. She walked right around and came to me. She slipped her fingers down, gave me a little chuck just like my late wife would have done, and said, ‘Jack, my Jack, God is with you all the time. Go right on. But my baby, my Teddy, I am so lonesome for him, but you pray so hard, you pray so hard" (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.133)

Lake believed this to be his deceased wife talking to him, this experience was like channeling today. Lake did not seem to believe the Word said contacting the dead is wrong. He excused it by saying, "Listen, it is not dragging spirits up, and it isn’t dragging some spirits down. There is nothing about calling spirits down from God in the Word; only about calling them up out of the depths" (ibid.)

"Now I want you to fix this in your mind. The blood washed always go there [3rd heaven] and if you ever talk to anyone that is over there you will go to them. They are not going to leave the throne, but they will say, ‘Brother, come up here’. That is the only way you will ever communicate with them" (ibid.)

God forbids contact with the dead or using mediums (Deut. 18:9, 10, 11, 12) but Lake ignored the warnings and transgressed into an area that is harmful to one relationship with Christ.

When Lake returned to the US in Feb. 1913, he remarried 6 months later Florence Switzer and fathered five more children. He then began traveling. In 1914 he went to England and attended a meeting with Pentecostal leaders. While in England, Lake founded the International Apostolic Council. Upon his returned to the US, he moved to Spokane, WA. (1914). After six months he opened his own building called "Lake's Divine Healing Rooms". He began training “Divine Healing Technicians" through his organization: The Divine Healing Institute. From Feb. 1915 until May 1920, it is claimed that Lake and his Divine Healing Technicians saw over 100,000 confirmed healings. From there he went to various other cities traveling down the California coast duplicating what is now called Healing Rooms. We can see why he is in the category off doing greater works.

image123 [size=18pt]Continued[/size]

John G. Lake's "ministry" consisted of a mixture. He promoted New Age/ Eastern philosophies, contact with the dead (called necromancy), out of body experiences, church in dominionism (known as Latter Rain) and word faith teaching that we can all become a god. You could honestly say he was the Benny Hinn of his time.

The Dominion Theology belief was the basis for this ministry, (Latter Rain-Kingdom Now, and Manifested Sons of God.) This belief system teaches the church will be perfected through the apostles and prophets, the church will then affect the world, then Jesus returns to a pure and powerful bride.

The "dominion" is to be exercised over all things, people, sickness and even Satan. Lake claimed that sin was the cause of sickness and anyone who went to a doctor was like a heathen and yet he suffered from colds, a nervous breakdown and even died from a stroke in 1935.

“Lake believed his generation missed the mark by not realizing the true definition of apostolic ministry. Some attempted to build an apostolic church around the doctrine and manifestation of healing power.

Others attempted to establish the apostolic church around the restoration of the gifts and speaking in tongues, while some attempted to create and establish the apostolic order around the doctrine of holiness.

This next explanation should explain exactly what Lakes vision was about and how it coincides with the apostolic prophetic movement that is currently in the church and trying to mislead her.

“True apostolic ministry is a fulfillment of John 14:12, with the Holy Spirit performing the same works through the church that He did through the life and ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. There is a ministry of perfection coming to the church that will prepare her for the return of the Bridegroom.”

(you can see this same teaching in the third wave groups and prophetic ministries).

“He taught in Joel 2:25, the Lord makes a wonderful promise to restore all that the palmer worm, cankerworm, caterpillar, and the locust have destroyed (KJV). These four stages of a maturing locust are used to prophetically symbolize the way that the spirit of the antichrist would attack the church. In Joel 2:25, the Lord makes a wonderful promise to restore all that the palmer worm, cankerworm, caterpillar, and the locust have destroyed (KJV). These four stages of a maturing locust are used to prophetically symbolize the way that the spirit of the antichrist would attack the church.”

The Lord’s promise to restore the apostolic church began through the ministry of Martin Luther and has now matured to a level so that this generation can expect the complete restoration of biblical apostolic ministry.”

When the day of Pentecost had fully come, the Holy Spirit descended upon them and watered the seed within their hearts, producing the life of Christ and the apostolic church. This same process must be realized in this church age as well.” (Website- IFM International fellowship of ministries

This is pure Latter Rain speech and one who has followed the disappointments of prophet hopefuls that spoke the same such as Paul Cain and the Kansas group of prophets, they know this is not good.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father” Lakes rendition of John 14:12, if true left out 99.99 percent of the church throughout all time except for the elite chosen ones, like Him.

According to Lake, “the truest definition of the apostolic church could be expressed in the awesome and reverential experience known as the baptism of the Holy Spirit.” While Lake rightly pointed out that the baptism was not just a gift of God, but God himself. Teaching that one did not become a dwelling place of God until they had this experience is contrary to Scripture (see Eph.1:13) – this is why Paul asked a certain group in Acts 19:2 if they received the Holy Spirit when they believed. Because that is when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit -See also Eph. 4:30; Acts 10:47,15:8

While Lake was feverishly burning up for more of God (especially an experience through power), God asks that we give more of ourselves to him so that the life of Christ that is already implanted in every believer can have its way. In other words we need to die to self, our desires, our ways.

Lake is known as a man who walked in the revelation of "God in man." He believed that a Spirit-filled Christian should see the same type of ministry Jesus did while he was on earth, and that this could only be accomplished by seeing themselves as God saw them. His belief was that Christians are to become "gods." Lake a former Methodist believed in entire sanctification. Along with salvation, was a complete deliverance from illness.

Quotes on Lake from DesVoignes research are quite shocking, considering the respect people have of him.

"It is not honoring to Jesus Christ that sickness should possess us. We do not want disease. We want to be gods. Jesus said, 'I said ye are gods' (John 10:34). It is with the attitude of gods in the world that Jesus wants the Christian to live" (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p. 13).

'I said ye are gods' is a Scripture that is often taken out of context with those who are not biblically astute. Jesus want us to have an attitude of a servant, not a God (Phil.2 tells us this is the mind of Christ). No apostle ever taught the church that we are gods. But this is repeated today by Mormons –Occultists and word faith cultists. It is far more than just a mistake, it is what the Bible calls heresy. Ps.82 and John 10:34 needs to be examined it in context. Jesus was scolding them, not affirming their nature. This teaching happens to distort man’s nature and relationship to God. Anyone who teaches this should not be accepted as a good teacher of God’s word because it does not accurately represent what God has said about humanity and misrepresents the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Lake said: "The power of God, the Holy Ghost, is the Spirit of Dominion. It makes one a god." (ibid. p. 13) God does not see us as gods or an incarnation. Neither do we see the apostles exercising dominion as Lake taught.

Lake: "I want you to hear what Jesus said about himself. God was in Christ, wasn't He? An incarnation. God is in you, an incarnation, if you were born again. You are incarnate." (ibid. p. 196).

Incarnate from what? We did not exist as God before we were born which is what this means with Jesus. Lake did not understand the incarnation.

Lake: "For God's purpose through Jesus Christ is to deify the nature of men and thus forever make them like unto, ... Thus he becomes the Son of god, a Savior and redeemer forever" (Ibid. p. 304).

Can man become an only begotten son, which makes him the savior? Again Lake exhibited a poor and heretical understanding of the core teachings of God and man. "I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God” (Isaiah 45:5-7) “And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none except Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other."(Isaiah 45:21-22).

Lake is mentioned as one of Kenneth Copeland's favorite mentors (besides his discipler Kenneth Hagin), Copeland states of Lake:

"The thing that was forfeited in the garden was regained. God gave him [Adam] dominion over the works of His hand. God made him His understudy, His king to rule over everything that had life. Man was master. man lived in the realm of god. He lived on terms of equality with God. God was a faith God. All God had to do was to believe that the sun was, and the sun was. All God had to do was to believe that the planets would be, and they were. Man belonged to God's class of being - a faith man, And he lived in the creative realm of God, " ("John G. Lake, " Kenneth Copeland Publications, Fort Worth, Texas 1994, p. 66.)

No one who has the ability to become a God, for the simple reason that God is not created – as humans we are. Adam was never to become a god, nor was he made an equal of God. There is no such thing as a creative realm of God, for God transcends anything he has created and is not limited by it. Neither do we as believers regain a rulership over creation. God did not create by faith, God did not create because of His faith. God created by the word of His power, not by faith in His belief.

Deify mans nature to make us the son of God? How is this possible when the Bible speaks of the ONLY begotten son of God as God himself? What kind of teaching is this. Lake teaching humans attain godhood corrupts everything else – in fact how can the God of truth honor such a lie with his power?

When you have such distorted beliefs of the Bible it affects how you look at other religions. What did Lake say about Eastern philosophies:

"Many of the ancient philosophies have marvelous light. One of the Indian philosophies, Bhagavad, were written five hundred years before Isaiah. In it they predicted the coming of a Son of God, a Redeemer, who was to come and redeem mankind." Buddha presented his philosophy five hundred years before Jesus. Pythagoras wrote four thousand years before Christ. In each one you will find many of the teachings of Jesus.”

“The teachings of Jesus were not unique in that they were all new. They were new because they contained something that none of the rest possessed. It was the divine content in the word of Jesus Christ that gave his teachings their distinguishing feature from the other philosophies" (John G. Lake: His Life His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith, Kenneth Copeland Publications, 1995, p.304)

Can false religions have a "marvelous light.” As Christians do we not believe light is found only in God’s word, Jesus being the true light. How can a book teach anything about God if the people who wrote do not know God? The Bhagavad Gita is Hindu teaching; it does not predict a Jewish Messiah. Buddha did not teach about God. You will find none of the teachings of Jesus in their books, what you may find is what is left known in mans conscience of right and wrong according to Romans 1:21-32. Can anyone come to know Jesus Christ through these other religions teachings? These books should not be used or spoken of as valid truth.

If what Lake stated is true, then why did Jesus say "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (John 10:8-9).
http://www.letusreason.org/Popteac40.htm

Candour:

So you could actually decode from John 1:37 onwards that Jesus OWNED a house?

You explanation comes from Luke's account of this episode so I'll take the verses that dealt with it

Luke 9:57-62 KJV
And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head. [59] And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

See all the bolded portions. 3 men wanted to go with him but only 1 went back when he heard about "having no place to lay his head". In fact to prove your thesis wrong, it was the very man that indicated "readiness to go withersoever" with the Lord, indicating distance or location wasn't his problem. What he couldn't stand was not having a sure place to lay his head. People in those times trekked long distances so that wasnt the problem. The other two had excuses too which Christ dealt with.

You conclusion that "its because he had no place to lay his head in Samaria" is very wrong and misleading because the man was ready to go beyond Samaria, in fact he was ready to go "withersoever"







The remaining part of the quote is commendable





And you keep shying away from giving the answer to why organisers of healing schools like John G Lake, his wife, Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc all battled sickness and died from it.

Were they walking in ignorance too? At least it would prove that "some God's generals" also walked in ignorance and in darkness.





I think Dr Kent in saying that was in perfect harmony with scriptures.

Romans 14:8-9 KJV
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

1 Thessalonians 5:10-11 KJV
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. [11] Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Paul was sick, Timothy was sick, Epaphroditus was sick, Trophimus was sick. These were all elders in the faith. Whom do you think prayed for them?





@the bolded, Job didn't say that. Eliphaz did and it was part of the misrepresentations that made God get angry with him and his 2 friends. If you wish to know, Eliphaz started talking in Job 4:1 and continued till Job 5:27, before Job replied him in Job 6. Meanwhile, see God's conclusion about what Eliphaz and his 2 friends had been saying.

Job 42:7-8 KJV
And it was so , that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath . [8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Their conclusion was that a righteous man never has calamities so Job was unrighteous hence his problems and this made God displeased with them.

If Job had expected a restoration of double, he would never had cursed the day he was born. He was in agony if spirit and body all through that episode but he never doubted God's faithfullness in the midst of it all. His implicit faith in God never wavered like his wife would have wished.







Thank God for John D Rockefeller. He was a shrewed, smart and hardworking businessman and it showed in his achievements. Thank God he was a christian too.

There's a lot of words and scriptures being thrown around and not much learning is being done. You want to ignore that Jesus accomodated 2 people who came and saw where he dwelled and then run with a singular poorly studied verse to sweepingly claim someone who has obviously done more research than you on this issue is wrong.

Let us now refer to Matthews account and Lukes to see who is wrong between me and you (maybe this time you will finally concede).

Carefully studying a map of then Palestine you would notice that Cana from Capernaum is quite close yet it took Jesus and his 2 disciples about 2 days to get there yet they're regions within Galilee. That's how much the distance is. When you see the distance between Capernaum and Jerusalem in Judea you will understand how long that distance would have been. That's just the first aspect.

Matthews account (Chapter begins with Jesus at Capernaum where he spoke to the centurion and also visited Peter's house. Luke (who followed the trail of events better chronologically) corroborated the story in Chapter 4 of his book- all these were happening in Galilee.

Matthew then says that because of the healing of Peter's mother in law many other sick folks gathered around Jesus and because of the mass he commanded that they departed to the 'other side'. According to Matthew, that was when a scribe asked to follow Jesus and then Jesus replied "foxes have. . ."

Luke tells us a more detailed story. He says the multitudes caused Jesus to borrow Peter's boat and teach from the Lake of Gennesaret. Peter who had just witnessed the healing of his mother in law and now the teaching of this Jesus became in awe of him so he obeyed and let down his net even though he had toiled long before then and caught nothing. We know the rest of that story. . .

Now, this is what caused Peter, James and John to forsake all and begin following Jesus (time is passing). According to Luke this is when Jesus met the leper and cleansed him (yet Matthews account makes it look like Jesus did this before meeting the centurion).

Luke says the healing of this leper caused Jesus' popularity to increase so much that great multitudes (from Galilee, Judea etc) began to swarm around him so Jesus often withdrew himself to pray (time is still passing).

On a certain day they brought a paralytic to Jesus while taught people under a roofed house. Many historians believed this to be Jesus'. When the people couldn't find a way to get the man to Jesus they broke the roof (and Jesus didn't complain neither did the Pharisees who were present) so we know this couldn't have been the synagogue. It was after this that Jesus met Matthew (which explains why he mixed the stories up for he wasn't there when it occurred).

Now a lot of time has passed and Jesus is going about teaching and healing with his disciples. Now many many days had passed before Jesus met the centurion (according to Luke 7) and afterwards Jesus went through every city and village in Galilee teaching about the kingdom. It was while he was doing this that his mother and brothers came from Nazareth to see him (for he was not living with them). Still time is passing.

Then Jesus boards a boat to cross to Gadara which scripture shows is opposite Galilee (Luke this was where he met the mad man and healed him and also where the swine issue occurred. This act made him very popular in Gadara. Interestingly, when the man who was hitherto mad, asked to follow Jesus he didn't say "foxes have holes. . ." He said "return to your own house and testify what God has done for you".(vv39) Jesus could not say he had no where to lay his head because he was still close to Galilee where he and his disciples had their homes.

Now multitudes kept thronging him as his popularity grew and as he journeyed across villages and towns. It is on one of such journeys that he raised a dead girl- the daughter of a ruler in the synagogue and also when he now gave his disciples authority to heal the sick and preach about the kingdom. While giving them the instructions he asked them not to take any money or what not for the journey (they were to stay in places provided for them by the residents of the area that they preached). Still time is passing. (Luke 9)

On a certain day in Bethsaida (still in Galilee close to the sea of Galilee) while talking to his disciples multitudes came till the day was fast gone. The disciples adviced Jesus to send them away so they could get provisions for themselves and then lodge. (If Jesus is still within Galilee yet he didn't have access to such I wonder how it would get any easy when he is in a new region-Samaria). Jesus multiplied bread and fish and fed them. Time is still passing.

Then he met with Elijah and Moses and Peter, James and John saw it. They heard God's voice and felt more powerful than ever before and then the following day they came back down from the mountain where they met a man but they couldn't heal his son (they weren't as full of faith and power as they thought); then Jesus healed the man's son and rebuked his disciples.

Now all my long story was for vv51. When it was clear to Jesus that he had to go to Jerusalem to die (for his time had come and he knew it). He decided to take the Samarian route so he sent disciples ahead of him so they could prepare a place for him to stay while he journeyed. He did this because at this time he was already well-known in Samaria due to all the news they had heard of him from his encounters in Galilee. (Of course, while in Samaria he was going to teach and heal as was his custom).

But the Samaritans didn't receive him because they knew he was actually on his way to Jerusalem vv53. This was when the scribe (in Matthews account) came to ask that he followed Jesus WHEREVER he was GOING TO.

Jesus was going to Jerusalem to be killed; he had no personal house in Jerusalem; he had to rest in Samaria before getting to Jerusalem; he had no place to lay his head in Samaria; he didn't want to inconvenience the man). That's why he turned the man down. As for the other two men, it was clear they didn't want to follow Jesus (and they didn't). Jesus used the responses they gave to teach so vv62.

The scriptures are clear for all to interprete. Jesus wasn't homeless. Many just don't take their time to study properly.

I will respond to the others when I have the time. Bye.

^^^
All John 1:37 onwards tell us is that Christ had a place to stay and no one has said that Christ slept in the open (though I won't put it beyond my Lord to do that sometimes). WOF claim Christ owned a big house where he housed guests like you insinuated here, and there's nothing in the whole of the bible that remotely suggests that. They say that to justify their ostentatiousness and addiction to materialism.

In fact your analysis of Israel's geography proved Christ had no need for his own house. If he spent that long in transit due to all the places he preached in (no chariots), why would he indulge in the waste of maintaining a house he didn't need most of the time? Christ borrowed boats, a donkey etc, whats so big about concluding he would also have graciously accepted lodging from his family or other kind hearted people?

Also the bible didn't say those 2 didn't follow Jesus. Thats your idea. The statement in vs 62 was directed to one of the men not all the disciples or multitude. See the scripture

Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Image123: Image123 said that Jesus operated healing schools? woah,

I suspected this sort of statement will come up that's why I provided you a "Fashola train" to ride with. Here:

DrummaBoy:
2. The question was whether Christ operated healing "schools" not whether healing can occur though believers or not.

Image123:
The answer was that Jesus and the apostles gathered people to heal them. That is what a healing school supposedly does.

DrummaBoy:
Another question please: Can we authoritatively say that Jesus ever "gathered people to heal them?" Can we find any biblical account for this? Are you saying Jesus gathered people exclusively for healing exercises like these WOF chaps do in their healing schools?
This is an all in one question.

Image123:
Yes

Candour: ^^^
All John 1:37 onwards tell us is that Christ had a place to stay and no one has said that Christ slept in the open (though I won't put it beyond my Lord to do that sometimes). WOF claim Christ owned a big house where he housed guests like you insinuated here, and there's nothing in the whole of the bible that remotely suggests that. They say that to justify their ostentatiousness and addiction to materialism.
In fact your analysis of Israel's geography proved Christ had no need for his own house. If he spent that long in transit due to all the places he preached in (no chariots), why would he indulge in the waste of maintaining a house he didn't need most of the time? Christ borrowed boats, a donkey etc, whats so big about concluding he would also have graciously accepted lodging from his family or other kind hearted people?
Also the bible didn't say those 2 didn't follow Jesus. Thats your idea. The statement in vs 62 was directed to one of the men not all the disciples or multitude. See the scripture
Luke 9:62 KJV
And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Don't be incorrigible, learn to take corrections when you are wrong or to save face, you should ignore the issue entirely.

I never said here that he had a mansion and housed many people. I never even insinuated so. I said when Andrew and Phillip visited him he accomodated them which means it was spacious enough to do so.

Speaking of his place, Peter and Matthew too had theirs but had to leave it in order to follow him through his journeys. That's what Jesus did.

Christ had the house before he began his ministry. It was unusual for a Jewish man of the time (aged 25-30) to still be with his parents and Jesus was no different. All historical evidences prove that he began his ministry at Age 30 so between 25 till when he began his ministry he must have been working and living somewhere. When he started ministry work he left his job and his house (when he wasn't in Capernaum of course) Period.

And yes the 2 men didn't follow Jesus. They gave excuses that will only require one deduction, especially since Jesus made the vv 62 reference. And No, he wasn't only teaching the man even if he was directing the statement to him. He said it to the hearing of his disciples from whom Luke could have learned the story.

I will still respond to your other posts when I am with a better device.

Candour,

Dr Kent's statement and Paul's are not the same. If a christian lives he lives for Christ. If a Christian dies he dies to be with Christ. We agree.

Dr Kent said "help me be faithful in my illness" and I said God wants us faithful but not in illness for he wants us well.

Which brings me to the names you keep throwing at me namely: Kathryn khulman, Oral Roberts etc. Oral Roberts was 91 when he went to be with the Lord and I cannot remember him suffering any ailment. In fact, I saw him pray for Paul Crouch some months before he was announced to have passed (I mean Oral).

Secondly, in those months leading to when he left he on at least 3 different occasions said he would soon go. (I watched it myself on TBN) no hearsay. Let me use this opportunity to even speak a little about his life. Contrary to the lies about Mansions that satan-influenced fellows said he had he was being accomodated by Benny Hinn who also paid him a salary on monthly basis.

Oral Roberts also lost a son to suicide but it didn't deter his dedication to the things of God and I he is dearly beloved by me. No regrets whatsoever.

So when I hear about various ailments that caused their deaths I just laugh because Satan has his media and the church of christ has hers. I don't take Satans seriously. I am that biased for the things of God.

If Kathryn khulman died due to any sickness she doesn't sink in my estimation. She was still a woman of God used by him in a mighty way. Elisha who enjoyed more miracles than his Mentor Elijah died due to sickness. (I know you may want to make reference to him). Well scripture says, at times he got angry and the anointing didn't flow until he was ministered to by a musician. It's possible he didn't cause it to flow at the point of his death. Much later a man was going to be buried and due to fear his Paulbearers tossed his body into Elishas grave. The dead man's body revived on contact with Elishas dry bones. That's how anointed Elisha was. Same goes for Kathryn and Mrs Kumuyi.

They are with the Lord and I am here to live by my own faith and you too should.

mbaemeka:

Don't be incorrigible, learn to take corrections when you are wrong or to save face, you should ignore the issue entirely.

Try and keep out the pettiness and silly patronage. If the chat is getting to you, then quit. You've shown you do not admit mistakes but I've refrained from using sly words on you. I advice you show some maturity.

I never said here that he had a mansion and housed many people. I never even insinuated so. I said when Andrew and Phillip visited him he accomodated them which means it was spacious enough to do so.

My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.

Speaking of his place, Peter and Matthew too had theirs but had to leave it in order to follow him through his journeys. That's what Jesus did.

Christ had the house before he began his ministry. It was unusual for a Jewish man of the time (aged 25-30) to still be with his parents and Jesus was no different. All historical evidences prove that he began his ministry at Age 30 so between 25 till when he began his ministry he must have been working and living somewhere. When he started ministry work he left his job and his house (when he wasn't in Capernaum of course) Period.

If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?

And yes the 2 men didn't follow Jesus. They gave excuses that will only require one deduction, especially since Jesus made the vv 62 reference. And No, he wasn't only teaching the man even if he was directing the statement to him. He said it to the hearing of his disciples from whom Luke could have learned the story.

I will still respond to your other posts when I am with a better device.

You say it like you were there or scriptures recorded that anywhere. See the scripture again. Focus on the bolded

Luke 9:59-62 KJV
And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Its actually easier and better to believe they both went than to say otherwise if you consider that bolded portion. If the man still remained adamant, the scriptures would have recorded it. Whether he spoke it in public or not, he was simply letting the man know why it wasn't right to go back.

Candour:

@the bolded, you did. Your acquiescence was an afterthought. Once again, see what you said initially

Yes, God didn't commission me to suffer A.K.A be in poverty, be sick etc for the Gospel. God want's me to Prosper A.K.A be in health, peace, rich etc for the gospel. That's what I have always said, maybe my latter post just elucidated my position better to you.

That scripture never suggested such. Its a figment of the imagination of those promoting that idea. There was never a time Christ said John was exempted from death. His life is a testament to God's sovereignty. God simply decided to keep him, maybe to write Revelations. We might never be sure.

Also John's survival of the boiling cauldron is part of why that era was special. Philip teleporting. Paul rising up after being "stoned to death" etc. They indeed did spectacular things.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you

Jesus had earlier on told them all that they would be killed. Then after his resurrection while talking to Peter he gives Peter a more vivid description of the way he would actually be killed. When Peter asked about John's (because Peter knew that Jesus had a special bond with John), Jesus said what is that to you if I say he will remain till I come? John, in his typical thoughtful and humble style said - "Jesus didn't say I would not die, he only said what if I say John will be here till I return?".

I have made my deductions from the afore and my logic is in order.

As per that teaching about an "era" that's just plain rubbish. If you don't see people teleport, come back from the dead etc It's because people are not taught that these manifestations by the Spirit still happen. We have even seen some say that it ended with the apostles entirely while some say medical science has replaced it. The same Holy Spirit that was in Philip is in me, he can make me teleport if the need arises.

You're correct that God spoke there. However its actually wrong to say when he spoke there, he meant more than the books of the law Moses compiled which is also known as the Pentateuch. Most of the psalms were written by David and he didn't surface until almost 500 years after this statement so it should be very obvious that the laws Isreal meditated on and practiced to get good success all those 500 years had nothing to do with Psalms 1:1-3.

I never said what Israel meditated on had to do with Psalms 1:1-3. I said the Psalmist taught the same thing that Joshua was taught by God years ago. Joshua had the books of Moses to meditate on, and as more books were added to the Torah the Jews had more books to meditate on.

It should interest you that in the prosperity scriptures of deut 28, success was clearly predicated on conformance to all the laws Moses gave and the summary of these laws started from deut 4:44 and ends in deut 27:26 which reads as follows

Deuteronomy 27:26 KJV
Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Deut 28:1-13 gives the blessings for conformance while deut 28:14-68 gave the curses and consequences of deviating from these laws and Isreal duly got both at different times.

These laws are not what Paul asked Timothy to meditate on and the profiting he mentioned had nothing to do with money.

Christ has redeemed us from receiving the blessings by conformance to the "laws". Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law. We can therefore take the blessings and run with it. That's what Paul taught Timothy and others.

2 Corinthians 1:18-20New International Version (NIV)

18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Paul taught Timothy that God's promises (ALL OF THEM) are not some "yes" and some "no". It has ALWAYS been Yes. No matter how many promises God says yes to them in "Christ". That's why we SPEAK AMEN (I claim it) to the glory of God.

That's why I say- I will never be broke in my life; I Dwell in health; I cannot be sick; I prosper in all I do etc. I am claiming the blessings and promises. I am saying AMEN to them.

Paul prospered in the gospel. He wasn't prosperous in financial terms. Prosperity isn't always about having material or financial goods.

If Agur is free to express himself, then John too was free to wish his friend prosper and be in health as in 3John 2. John wrote a letter to his friend and made a good wish for him. God didn't speak there and ask anyone to make it a doctrine.

Sure you are right about Paul. He gave all he had to the preaching of the gospel. LOL @ John. Not with what you have seen above ^^ concerning the promises besides, this is John the Divine; full of the Holy Spirit. If he wished it for anyone, it must have been word-based.

If they're rules for life and it works for even atheists, why make it look like it only works for Christians? So do you agree that a sinner who gives but mocks God, sits in the seat of the seat of the scornful etc will still prosper as long as he's obedient to these giving laws?

Does that mean Psalm 1:4-6 is suspended by these immutable laws?

If a Christian puts his fingers into fire it will burn him. If a Christian jumps up he will come down. If a sinner gives he will receive back. What happened to your definition of prosperity being not just about finances? How will the sinner gain access to the blessings of divine health? How will he gain access to the blessings of grace-unmerited favour?

That's why we said there are some principles a sinner can stumble unto by chance and they will benefit him. There are some he can only find by studying and meditating on the scriptures.

There's no basis for saying the Christians became poor for the gospel sake except you're saying they were prevented from making money because of persecution. At least this was the case of the Macedonian Christians

2 Corinthians 8:2 KJV
How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

Being poor for the gospel is what Barnabas did. He gave all he had into the gospel and lived like he had nothing. The Macedonians above abounded in the grace of generosity for the gospel despite the fact that they had little and experienced trials. They gave their widows mite. That's what it means to be poor for the gospels sake.

Physical death also came as a result of sin, has death been stopped? Pain and labour during pregnancy also came as a result of sin, have christian women stopped screaming of pain when dilating for child birth? How come hardened sinners who have not yet had their sin problem dealt with prospering and having "laws of giving" work for them?

First off, death is referred to as the enemy. Secondly, it might interest you again to know that not all christians will die (so just keep that in perspective when you speak about death). Thirdly, Jesus has the keys of Hell and Death now so (for us christians) he reserves the right to call us home and he doesn't do it without our consent (he is that kind).

As per labour in child birth, I can flood this thread with testimonies of Christian women that didn't experience such. It all boils down to how much of the word of God (and his promises) we have believed in and said "amen" to. That's why the accurate teaching of the word of God is required.

A christian can speak the word concerning his health and be in health but be stingy with his money and not prosper. The word of God doesn't work for you simply because you're christian. You have to personalize it- the just shall live by HIS OWN faith.

Acts 11:28-30 KJV
And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar. [29] Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: [30] Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul.

Bad things happen, and it happens to Christians too. Pls stop disparaging folks who have been dealt harshly by life. You mock their creator so doing. There is no where the bible said or insinuated that "they were dangerous to the gospel" and you have no right to say that

The Christians that were sending relief to Judea why didn't the famine affect them too? The famine was for the whole world. Challenges come to everyone, but how you respond to them matters. After all, the same "Credit crunch" that affected Bill Gates negatively made Warren Buffet the man with the most money in the world.

We can start small but we should not remain there- regardless of life's challenges. Jesus said we are in the world but not of the "masses". What affects the "masses" should not affect us. I remember when I was in the university and rumours will be flying around that only one student got an A in a particular course. I would always say "I know I am the one" even when I had other very intelligent Christians in my class. I virtually always ended up being the one. One day, someone said I was boasting and I showed him this:


Romans 3:27King James Version (KJV)
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

He started talking the same way too.

Someone who is talking faith cannot be boasting- in a nutshell.

mbaemeka:

Yes, God didn't commission me to suffer A.K.A be in poverty, be sick etc for the Gospel. God want's me to Prosper A.K.A be in health, peace, rich etc for the gospel. That's what I have always said, maybe my latter post just elucidated my position better to you.

John 16 King James Version (KJV)
1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you

Jesus had earlier on told them all that they would be killed. Then after his resurrection while talking to Peter he gives Peter a more vivid description of the way he would actually be killed. When Peter asked about John's (because Peter knew that Jesus had a special bond with John), Jesus said what is that to you if I say he will remain till I come? John, in his typical thoughtful and humble style said - "Jesus didn't say I would not die, he only said what if I say John will be here till I return?".

I have made my deductions from the afore and my logic is in order.

As per that teaching about an "era" that's just plain rubbish. If you don't see people teleport, come back from the dead etc It's because people are not taught that these manifestations by the Spirit still happen. We have even seen some say that it ended with the apostles entirely while some say medical science has replaced it. The same Holy Spirit that was in Philip is in me, he can make me teleport if the need arises.

I never said what Israel meditated on had to do with Psalms 1:1-3. I said the Psalmist taught the same thing that Joshua was taught by God years ago. Joshua had the books of Moses to meditate on, and as more books were added to the Torah the Jews had more books to meditate on.


Christ has redeemed us from receiving the blessings by conformance to the "laws". Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law. We can therefore take the blessings and run with it. That's what Paul taught Timothy and others.

2 Corinthians 1:18-20New International Version (NIV)

18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God.

Paul taught Timothy that God's promises (ALL OF THEM) are not some "yes" and some "no". It has ALWAYS been Yes. No matter how many promises God says yes to them in "Christ". That's why we SPEAK AMEN (I claim it) to the glory of God.

That's why I say- I will never be broke in my life; I Dwell in health; I cannot be sick; I prosper in all I do etc. I am claiming the blessings and promises. I am saying AMEN to them.



Sure you are right about Paul. He gave all he had to the preaching of the gospel. LOL @ John. Not with what you have seen above ^^ concerning the promises besides, this is John the Divine; full of the Holy Spirit. If he wished it for anyone, it must have been word-based.



If a Christian puts his fingers into fire it will burn him. If a Christian jumps up he will come down. If a sinner gives he will receive back. What happened to your definition of prosperity being not just about finances? How will the sinner gain access to the blessings of divine health? How will he gain access to the blessings of grace-unmerited favour?

That's why we said there are some principles a sinner can stumble unto by chance and they will benefit him. There are some he can only find by studying and meditating on the scriptures.


Being poor for the gospel is what Barnabas did. He gave all he had into the gospel and lived like he had nothing. The Macedonians above abounded in the grace of generosity for the gospel despite the fact that they had little and experienced trials. They gave their widows mite. That's what it means to be poor for the gospels sake.

First off, death is referred to as the enemy. Secondly, it might interest you again to know that not all christians will die (so just keep that in perspective when you speak about death). Thirdly, Jesus has the keys of Hell and Death now so (for us christians) he reserves the right to call us home and he doesn't do it without our consent (he is that kind).

As per labour in child birth, I can flood this thread with testimonies of Christian women that didn't experience such. It all boils down to how much of the word of God (and his promises) we have believed in and said "amen" to. That's why the accurate teaching of the word of God is required.

A christian can speak the word concerning his health and be in health but be stingy with his money and not prosper. The word of God doesn't work for you simply because you're christian. You have to personalize it- the just shall live by HIS OWN faith.


The Christians that were sending relief to Judea why didn't the famine affect them too? The famine was for the whole world. Challenges come to everyone, but how you respond to them matters. After all, the same "Credit crunch" that affected Bill Gates negatively made Warren Buffet the man with the most money in the world.

We can start small but we should not remain there- regardless of life's challenges. Jesus said we are in the world but not of the "masses". What affects the "masses" should not affect us. I remember when I was in the university and rumours will be flying around that only one student got an A in a particular course. I would always say "I know I am the one" even when I had other very intelligent Christians in my class. I virtually always ended up being the one. One day, someone said I was boasting and I showed him this:


Romans 3:27King James Version (KJV)
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

He started talking the same way too.

Someone who is talking faith cannot be boasting- in a nutshell.

^^^
SMH, that verse (i.e. Romans 3:27) was about the pretensions of the Jew and completely unrelated to the discourse with Candour

Candour:

@the bolded, Job didn't say that. Eliphaz did and it was part of the misrepresentations that made God get angry with him and his 2 friends. If you wish to know, Eliphaz started talking in Job 4:1 and continued till Job 5:27, before Job replied him in Job 6. Meanwhile, see God's conclusion about what Eliphaz and his 2 friends had been saying.

Job 42:7-8 KJV
And it was so , that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath . [8] Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

Their conclusion was that a righteous man never has calamities so Job was unrighteous hence his problems and this made God displeased with them.

If Job had expected a restoration of double, he would never had cursed the day he was born. He was in agony if spirit and body all through that episode but he never doubted God's faithfullness in the midst of it all. His implicit faith in God never wavered like his wife would have wished.

Yes you are right that Eliphaz and not Job made the statements in Job 5. And NO, a thousand times NO! Not everything Eliphaz said was wrong. Same way not all Job said was correct e.g cursing the day he was born etc. God corrected not just Eliphaz and the rest he also corrected Job. What Eliphaz said in (Job 5:19,22) for example, were correct. We know the things that he said that were wrong because God said so. Eliphaz believed that God was punishing Job for not doing enough good, and Bildad thought Job was just whining because he wanted His wealth back. On the other hand, by justifying himself, Job was condemning God as being unjust. Elihu on the other hand was correct. In chapter 34 he confirmed the Lord’s inability to do wrong or pervert justice.

Then in chapter 38 when God Himself joined the conversation, we see that Job is neither given a bill of indictment nor a verdict of innocence, but his understanding of God was certainly brought into question. We can see all that.

The question I asked again is how did Job show his "implicit faith" in God? How didn't he waver? Is it similar to Abraham in Romans 4:18-23? Scripture too said Abraham didn't waiver and if Job did same he must have been confessing God's words rightly and giving thanks like Abraham did.

Candour:

Try and keep out the pettiness and silly patronage. If the chat is getting to you, then quit. You've shown you do not admit mistakes but I've refrained from using sly words on you. I advice you show some maturity.




My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.




If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?




You say it like you were there or scriptures recorded that anywhere. See the scripture again. Focus on the bolded

Luke 9:59-62 KJV
And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. [60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. [61] And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. [62] And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Its actually easier and better to believe they both went than to say otherwise if you consider that bolded portion. If the man still remained adamant, the scriptures would have recorded it. Whether he spoke it in public or not, he was simply letting the man know why it wasn't right to go back.

I love how we started from "Jesus had no roof over his head" to "Foxes have holes. . " to "My younger brother also 'houses' his friends in my house. It doesn't make him a house owner. He rents a house at his university. That still doesn't make him a house owner.

If you agree Jesus didn't own 'a big fancy mansion' like some pastors claim, then we have no reason to argue on this issue. Even the mad man he cured had a 'place' he abode.

If this is the line you're taking, then there probably was no homeless person in Israel as at this time and we shouldn't be having this argument. If every 25 year old had a place of his to stay, then what's so special about Jesus having a place to house 2 others who also had their own place?"

And I am charged with this:

You've shown you do not admit mistakes

Ha ha ha ha ha! There's nothing more to say.