cloudstar: nairalife2013



Why should anyone travel thousands of miles from their homeland to Mecca to decide where to kiss a stone or not. Are the stones in your village not good enough. Is circling the Kabbah 7 times another choice as well. The rituals speak of idolatry yet you incest otherwise. I have asked you several times, where in the Quran did Allah give Muslim the choice to circle the Kabbah and/or kiss it? Shame no gree you answer



It has everything to do with worship. It's a ritualistic form of worship. We can easily prove whether it's worship or not. Take any stone and put it in the middle of road in front of your house. At random times, circle it 7 times and recite your prayers and if you feel like it or not; go ahead and kiss it. When you are done, ask them people what they call that.



You seem to enjoy living in ignorance. Christians and Muslims believe in one God - they are monotheist. However, the character and attributes of Allah and Yahweh are worlds apart. Allah hates Christians and Jews and curse them; Yahweh doesn't hate anyone.

Christians believe in the deity of Jesus Christ - Muslims vehemently deny it and claim Christians are polytheist. Should I go on?

there is no shame there I wonder how u see things. I am in my worship place and I chose to kiss what ever I kiss and u from outside stood there and say am worshiping the thing. Swear to d holy bible that am worshipping the thing now since u are so sure, say if am not worshipping d thing make motor jam u or make u get bad luck and get knocked down and ... U argue wid a biased mind cos u hate pilgrimage, or any thing done in freewill. U make allusions dat are ridiculous and beyond reason- main road or is it middle of d road mosque... Do the needful as I said and I will believe u... I will giv u list of what to swear. I dey wid u and y'all w'likemind.

nairalife2013: there is no shame there I wonder how u see things. I am in my worship place and I chose to kiss what ever I kiss and u from outside stood there and say am worshiping the thing. Swear to d holy bible that am worshipping the thing now since u are so sure, say if am not worshipping d thing make motor jam u or make u get bad luck and get knocked down and ... U argue wid a biased mind cos u hate pilgrimage, or any thing done in freewill. U make allusions dat are ridiculous and beyond reason- main road or is it middle of d road mosque... Do the needful as I said and I will believe u... I will giv u list of what to swear. I dey wid u and y'all w'likemind.

Dear brother, kindly ignore cloudstar. He's among the faceless NL member that intrude a lot into Islamic forum. And he keep going in a cyclic direction no end.

In a short while, in sha Allah, I planned to open a thread on the spirituality of Hajj where each rites are discussed.

cloudstar:

The kissing the "black-stone" and "circling it 7 times" is a ritual and an act of Islamic worship. From your above description, Allah is and should be the only object of a Muslim respect, veneration and attention. It should be any in-animate object especially one Allah hasn't explicitly instructed Muslims to do.

Ramadan is another example of where worship, respect and veneration is easily recognized - Muslims pray and fast and those are acts of worship - it's an act instructed by Allah. So, when a Muslim circles a "black-stone" 7 times and kiss it - He/She is physically performing an act to an object other than Allah. It becomes a big issue especially when Allah didn't instruct Muslims to kiss the "black-stone" or circle it 7 times. The main question is what is the significance of the stone, why do Muslims kiss it and circle it 7 times?

Here's Islamic taught about "Tawaf" (circling 7times):
www.nairaland.com/1804065/spiritual-significance-hajj-pilgrimage-mecca#24536356

"Touching and kissing of Black stone"
www.nairaland.com/1806347/symbolism-black-stone-polytheism-monotheism

AlBaqir:

Here's Islamic taught about "Tawaf" (circling 7times):
www.nairaland.com/1804065/spiritual-significance-hajj-pilgrimage-mecca#24536356

"Touching and kissing of Black stone"
www.nairaland.com/1806347/symbolism-black-stone-polytheism-monotheism

Again, you haven't answered my question. Did Allah instruct Muslims to circle the Kabbah 7 times and kiss it if they so choose?

AlBaqir:

Dear brother, kindly ignore cloudstar. He's among the faceless NL member that intrude a lot into Islamic forum. And he keep going in a cyclic direction no end.

In a short while, in sha Allah, I planned to open a thread on the spirituality of Hajj where each rites are discussed.

When difficult subjects are brought up in Islam, folks like you start complaining and shouting wolf. When it's to debate and call names against your Sunni Muslim house-hold; you are quick to defend Shism. Now you are hear complaining and haven't provided any response to the question about Muslims circle an object and kissing it when Allah hasn't instructed it.

nairalife2013

there is no shame there I wonder how u see things. I am in my worship place and I chose to kiss what ever I kiss and u from outside stood there and say am worshiping the thing.

Okay. Where in the Quran did Allah tell you to kiss a stone that is in Mecca?

Swear to d holy bible that am worshipping the thing now since u are so sure, say if am not worshipping d thing make motor jam u or make u get bad luck and get knocked down and

James 5:12 = But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation

Kissing and performing a ritual to a stone which Allah hasn't commanded you is idolatry. You can defend it all you want, that is your cup of tea. Muslims are quick to call others polytheist yet you are the ones that circle a dead stone that can't even speak and kiss it. You will face Allah

... U argue wid a biased mind cos u hate pilgrimage, or any thing done in freewill.

Pilgrimage is not the issue, idol worship is. The ritual of kissing the stone and circling around it is not found in the Quran and Allah never instructed it. I have asked you several times to show us where it is in the Quran but so far, all you have done is beat empty air.

U make allusions dat are ridiculous and beyond reason- main road or is it middle of d road mosque... Do the needful as I said and I will believe u... I will giv u list of what to swear. I dey wid u and y'all w'likemind

My yes is my yes and my no is my no - my word is my bond. I don't need to swear to prove anything. Asking you to show us where kissing and circle the Kabbah is instructed in the Quran is allusion abi? Take your swear list, put it on the Quran and ask Allah to show you where He instructed any Muslim to kiss the Kabbah or circle it 7 times. I dey for you

Thanks cloudstar, I have been following your post, and dividing the the issues you raised. It is a known fact the circumveting the kabba shrine is a pre-Islamic ritual by the pagan arabs. Even if the instruction for that ritual is contained in the koran, it doesnt stop the fact that the practice of kissing\venerating the black stone in kabba is pure idol worship.

Its unfortunate that millions of pple will never pause and think, thats the issue with 'religiosness'. And it is never on record that the Abraham of the bible ever visited kabba, let alone died in mecca.

The koran, I think, is a direct attack on the Jewish\christian torah (or book) and medivial history.

My muslim brothers and sister , this your islam is becoming too bloody , common seat down and reason , Islam have nothing to do with God. Bible said the devil came to steal, kill and to destroy , and that look like Satan is carrying out is assignment through Islam . Because this bloody move is now every minute thing all across the world. Young european Muslims traveling like Abdul Mutalab to fight Jihad. Common men , y'all should reason.

I love my muslims brothers , but just want y'all to reason.

nwaanambra1: they will soon finish themselves!

#islamwillselfdestruct

After you and yours!

cloudstar: If kissing stone that was worshiped by 7th century Arabians is not idolatry then I do not know what is. Many Muslims claim they worship one God and they are Monotheist yet they travel at least one time in their life time and possibly spend their entire life savings to enrich Saudi Arabians who are already well off to to kiss the Kabbah and pay it homage. Wasn't that what the arab pagans did before Islam? If you guys are still doing it today, what is the difference between Allah then and the Allah now?

Is Allah in the Kabbah?

And yours guys go to Redeemed camp every month, don't you?
Do you do that to enrich anyone?
Tell me the budget for hajj and let us see how it enriches Saudi Arabia
Tell me how many Saudis drive the buses and sell the food during hajj
Tell me how many pilgrims go to Mecca 2-3m in two weeks and how much do they spend?
What is Saudi's GDP?

Muslims don't pray to human beings, you guys do
Have you ever seen a Muslim ask from the black stone?
And less than 3% of Muslims will ever perform hajj in their lifetine
So?

Please debate what you know -this is not a beer parlour

jookco: My muslim brothers and sister , this your islam is becoming too bloody , common seat down and reason , Islam have nothing to do with God. Bible said the devil came to steal, kill and to destroy , and that look like Satan is carrying out is assignment through Islam . Because this bloody move is now every minute thing all across the world. Young european Muslims traveling like Abdul Mutalab to fight Jihad. Common men , y'all should reason.

I love my muslims brothers , but just want y'all to reason.

Becoming?
At this rate, it will take us 500 years to break the records set by Christian
You have already achieved the uinenviable
But Insha Allah, we don't want things to continue like this.
We shall overcome and cool heads will prevail

I doubt the source of this news BTW
Destroying the kabba is intended to stigmatise
It is a sensitive subject but that is not the path of history already foretold

ISIS are terrorists nevertheless

BetaThings:

After you and yours!

agreed - if myself and mine are causing the kind of mayhem and havoc on innocent people as does islam - but if not then you and yours will self-destruct for being for supporting their bloody nature!

nwaanambra1:

agreed - if myself and mine are causing the kind of mayhem and havoc on innocent people as does islam - but if not then you and yours will self-destruct for being for supporting their bloody nature!

The story is not true
And Christians have caused so much tears and sorrow that Muslims at the current trajectory will need at least 500 years to catch up
yet you guys are not relenting
You really need to study the history of Christianity
The map of the entire Middle East was drawn by Christians and done in a way that there would not be peace
Afterall some people still blame Britain for amalgamating North & South
The Berlin conference 1885 took its decision and who were the victims

Christians supported the war that brought down Saddam and flooded the place with evangelists
The budget was $100,000 per church
Here is Palin
And American Soldiers invoked name of Jesus while shooting defenceless Muslims
The only thing Christians have is propaganda
Your record in Vietnam, Rwanda, Ireland is written in blood
And IF the Bible is correct, you will be judged!

The if is not about whether you are guilty, there is no doubt it
From the Wars of religion, inquisition, granting papal indulgence for pogroms, the doctrine of discovery, Christianity is one bloodthirsty movement sustained by propaganda

Spreading Christian after the soldiers had softened the land
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/122207Leopold.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1450359/Bible-Belt-missionaries-set-out-on-a-war-for-souls-in-Iraq.html

American soldiers calling name of Jesus and mocking our Prophet (SAW)
http://harpers.org/archive/2009/05/jesus-killed-mohammed/

Palin telling Christians about God's Plan in Iraq. Has there been peace in Iraq?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H-btXPfhGs

BetaThings

And yours guys go to Redeemed camp every month, don't you?
Do you do that to enrich anyone?
Tell me the budget for hajj and let us see how it enriches Saudi Arabia
Tell me how many Saudis drive the buses and sell the food during hajj
Tell me how many pilgrims go to Mecca 2-3m in two weeks and how much do they spend?
What is Saudi's GDP?

Another ignorant individual with nothing important to say. Did God in the Bible order anyone to go to the Redeem camp? Do Christians worship any stone in that camp? I have asked all muslims yet haven't received any answer. Did Allah order any Muslim to kiss the black stone? Did he order Muslims to circle the black stone

Muslims don't pray to human beings, you guys do. Have you ever seen a Muslim ask from the black stone? And less than 3% of Muslims will ever perform hajj in their lifetine So?

Really, who are the humans that Christians pray to? Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the rites at the Hajj before you make a fool of yourself.

Please debate what you know -this is not a beer parlour

I know this - Allah never instructed any Muslim in the Quran to kiss or circle the Kabbah

cloudstar:


I know this - Allah never instructed any Muslim in the Quran to kiss or circle the Kabbah

No you know not. You are a bloody liar. Do you believe in "Allah" or His word "Qur'an" or His prophet and messenger, Muhammad? In those 3 questions lies answer to your silly allegation.

AlBaqir:

No you know not. You are a bloody liar. Do you believe in "Allah" or His word "Qur'an" or His prophet and messenger, Muhammad? In those 3 questions lies answer to your silly allegation.

Okay then - can you show me in the Quran where Allah instructed any Muslim to circle the Kabbah or kiss it?

cloudstar:

Okay then - can you show me in the Quran where Allah instructed any Muslim to circle the Kabbah or kiss it?

Answer my questions and I will show you where it is. Again did you believe in the Qur'an as a divine book of God revealed to Muhammad? Then Do you believe in Muhammad being a prophet of God sent with the Qur'an?

AlBaqir:

Answer my questions and I will show you where it is. Again did you believe in the Qur'an as a divine book of God revealed to Muhammad? Then Do you believe in Muhammad being a prophet of God sent with the Qur'an?

Bros, in case you have reading problems, I will repeat my answer again:

Your Question: First you don't believe in Qur'an being word of God.

My Answer: That is because God is consistent. The law of abrogation is not the nature of the true supreme ruler of heavens and earth. Why would God in the Quran make one statement and later change his mind. Can't the Almighty God that is infinite in wisdom and knows all give one command and not change his mind? Was the God in the Quran not sure when he revealed his words through Gabriel to Mohammad in as much that He had to change it? Also, the Quran makes several claims that are incorrect when magnified under the microscope of proven and tested science.

Your Question: Do you believe in Muhammad being a prophet of God sent with the Qur'an?

My Answer: I believe traceable historical accounts that have been proven i.e. I believe Mohammad taught Monotheism which was a BIG deal in 7th century Arabia at that time. I believe he married a 40 year old woman when he was 25 and a 6 year old girl when he was over 50. Those accounts are historic and can be traced. However, I do not believe in the theological accounts that has no historical basis i.e. Adam was over 60 cubits tall. Also, the Quran gives several different accounts about the creation of the universe.

In case you need me to write it again, I will. Now, please show us in the Quran where Allah instructed Muslims to circle the Kabbah and kiss it

^Now I know you have 'Armageddon of the brain'.

How Does the question: 'do u believe Muhammad was a divine prophet' got to do with all the gibberish above *he married at 26, a 40year old woman, and later married a 6year old*

Are you scared to hit the bulls eye? Your so-called answers to my questions showed you either don't understand the question or scared to hit the bulls eye. You are just beating round the bush.

Was Muhammad a divine prophet to you?
Is Quran a divine revelation?

My point in asking all these, because I know you NEVER believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God or Quran as a divine revelation, is that the 'practice of touching and kissing' the black stone is among the sunnah (practice) of the holy prophet Muhammad (saws) which Quran command in various chapters:

"You have the best examples in the messenger (Muhammad) of God; for whosoever believe in God and the hereafter..."

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love Allah, FOLLOW me..."

Quran command muslims to pray and stipulated time for it. But how to pray was not mentioned.

Quran command zakat. But when and how and what to give as zakat were not mentioned. Etc etc

The practice of Muhammad explained all these. Likewise, there are many rites of Hajj among whom is the 'black stone' not mentioned in the Quran but commanded by the holy prophet (saws).

AlBaqir: ^Now I know you have 'Armageddon of the brain'.

How Does the question: 'do u believe Muhammad was a divine prophet' got to do with all the gibberish above *he married at 26, a 40year old woman, and later married a 6year old*

Are you scared to hit the bulls eye? Your so-called answers to my questions showed you either don't understand the question or scared to hit the bulls eye. You are just beating round the bush.

Was Muhammad a divine prophet to you?
Is Quran a divine revelation?

My point in asking all these, because I know you NEVER believe in Muhammad as a prophet of God or Quran as a divine revelation, is that the 'practice of touching and kissing' the black stone is among the sunnah (practice) of the holy prophet Muhammad (saws) which Quran command in various chapters:

"You have the best examples in the messenger (Muhammad) of God; for whosoever believe in God and the hereafter..."

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love Allah, FOLLOW me..."

Quran command muslims to pray and stipulated time for it. But how to pray was not mentioned.

Quran command zakat. But when and how and what to give as zakat were not mentioned. Etc etc

The practice of Muhammad explained all these. Likewise, there are many rites of Hajj among whom is the 'black stone' not mentioned in the Quran but commanded by the holy prophet (saws).

Mohammad is not Allah, this is what Allah said in the Quran:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, there is no where in the Quran that Allah instructed any Muslim to venerate any object or the Kabbah. Allah explicitly tells Muslims that it is an abomination yet Mohammad did it. Go to your imam and ask him why Mohammad disobeyed Allah

cloudstar:

Mohammad is not Allah, this is what Allah said in the Quran:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, there is no where in the Quran that Allah instructed any Muslim to venerate any object or the Kabbah. Allah explicitly tells Muslims that it is an abomination yet Mohammad did it. Go to your imam and ask him why Mohammad disobeyed Allah

Yorubas will say ''Omo ko mowe,Iya re ni akosile re danmoran,kini a n wi,kini o n wi?'' roughly translated 'A child is intellectually dull and drab and his mother said his handwriting is legible.What's the correlation?'
AlBaqir,please for the sake of Allah stop replying gullible goons on NL,it only lowers one's IQ.

lanrexlan: Yorubas will say ''Omo ko mowe,Iya re ni akosile re danmoran,kini a n wi,kini o n wi?'' roughly translated 'A child is intellectually dull and drab and his mother said his handwriting is legible.What's the correlation?'
AlBaqir,please for the sake of Allah stop replying gullible goons on NL,it only lowers one's IQ.

You finally came from your cave? Please help your brother provide an answer

lanrexlan: Yorubas will say ''Omo ko mowe,Iya re ni akosile re danmoran,kini a n wi,kini o n wi?'' roughly translated 'A child is intellectually dull and drab and his mother said his handwriting is legible.What's the correlation?'
AlBaqir,please for the sake of Allah stop replying gullible goons on NL,it only lowers one's IQ.

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

AlBaqir:

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

It's amazing that both Shias and Sunnis will gang up and defend common interests yet be at each other throats and sometimes kill one another on theological differences and traditions. The same is evident here. Allah instructed all Muslims:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, [size=13pt](dedication of) stones[/size], and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

But Muslims like AlBaqir has transcended Mohammad to the level of Allah and said whatever Mohammad did was perfect and should be an example to all Muslims. Even when Mohammad kissed the stone directly disobeying the commandment of Allah in the Quran.

Based on your theory, Muslim men should dress in women clothing because Mohammed did it as well. Grown up Muslim men should be br.ea.st fed by women in order to nullify suspicion that they are not having an affair in private. Mohammad owned and sold slaves, perhaps you should too as well since he did it. He married his son's wife. I can go on and on.

To blind, hard core adherents that are not objective and who think everything Mohammad did was perfect, please read one of his prayers:

"Oh God, I acknowledge and confess before You, all my sins, please forgive them, as no one can forgive sins except You. Forgive my mistakes, those done intentionally, or out of my ignorance, with or without seriousness. Oh God, forgive my sins and my ignorance, forgive my sins of the past and of the future, which I did openly or secretly. Forgive the wrong I have done, jokingly or seriously. I seek Your protection from all the evil I have done. Wash away my sins, and cleanse my heart, from all the sins as a white garment is cleansed from the filth, and let there be long distance between me and my sins, as You made the East and West far from each other."

This is a synthesis of his personal prayers found in Sahih Bukhari Volume 8: #s 335, 379, 407, and 408. Please read it before you blindly chose to follow every and anything Mohammad did because you thought he was perfect. The Quran said he was a sinner, he said he was a sinner yet you want us to believe he was sinless.

AlBaqir:

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

Instead of beating about the bush and trivialize the issue he raised by making found of his moniker, u guys will do well giving him/her a straight answer even if it's "I don't know" or "I will found out from ulama" .

AlBaqir:

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

instead of you to debunk his claim, you and your friend are insulting him.

Cloudstar, remain bless Bro.



If you observe, Ed-ul-fitr. Not one christian bash you guys, but when it christmas,new year or ester. You will see no less than 20 thread against fest celebration.
HAPPY SALAH, WAITING YOU CHOP REMAIN?

Mee234:
Instead of beating about the bush and trivialize the issue he raised by making found of his moniker, u guys will do well giving him/her a straight answer even if it's "I don't know" or "I will found out from ulama" .

It's typical of some Muslims here on NL. Whenever tough questions about Islam is brought to light; they tend to attack you and call you all sorts of names without providing an answer to the question you asked.

AlBaqir:

Na true talk you talk o dear brother. Imagine the name sef "cloudstar"? Stars are normally shining and bright. Its own is cloudy. No wonder why the guy is gullible.

Abi,his own star is like a cumulus cloud.The guy daft pass shoe brush.

cloudstar:

You finally came from your cave? Please help your brother provide an answer

Cave? Have you heard of something about life outside NL? Answer to who? To a person who has proven overtime to be an alpha idjit? It's like lending a blind man a reading glasses,it's of no use to him.

Mee234:
Instead of beating about the bush and trivialize the issue he raised by making found of his moniker, u guys will do well giving him/her a straight answer even if it's "I don't know" or "I will found out from ulama" .

malvisguy212: instead of you to debunk his claim, you and your friend are insulting him.
Cloudstar, remain bless Bro.
If you observe, Ed-ul-fitr. Not one christian bash you guys, but when it christmas,new year or ester. You will see no less than 20 thread against fest celebration.
HAPPY SALAH, WAITING YOU CHOP REMAIN?

cloudstar:
It's typical of some Muslims here on NL. Whenever tough questions about Islam is brought to light; they tend to attack you and call you all sorts of names without providing an answer to the question you asked.

Birds of a feather,your reasoning is all the same.

lanrexlan: Yorubas will say ''Omo ko mowe,Iya re ni akosile re danmoran,kini a n wi,kini o n wi?'' roughly translated 'A child is intellectually dull and drab and his mother said his handwriting is legible.What's the correlation?'
AlBaqir,please for the sake of Allah stop replying gullible goons on NL,it only lowers one's IQ.

Hmmm....word for thought