beejaay:

my good friend Muhammad and Quran aren't mutually exclusive.. u cant talk about Qur'an without muhammad and vice versa.. without muhammad there wont be Quran as we know it today. by following Qur'an, u are automatically following muhammad..am sure u get it


Happy Ramadan

Guy what ya problem with what mulims do? After all u will not follow islam. Christians believe in trinity yet is not found in bible christians go to church on sunday yet is not found in de bible, is dat not enough bother to u?? Why are u here bothering on other people affairs?? De scholar in de house have clear u on dis point still u claiming to know more dan well learn person. What do u really want

proo212: @Lanrexlan, you are still not thinking. "Allah" created man weak so he knew man could not sustain worship like his angels. Why did he order 50 solats? If man did 50 solats, you will not have time to work or do anything!

@Maclatunji, Allah is supposed to be all knowing of all things, how come his creation suggests a thing and he adopts his suggestion? And this is not the only time that it happened.

Please, I mean no insult. I am asking you to think.

Allah knew the snakes were dangerous to man yet he still created them, Allah knew man were going to be wicked and cruel to each other yet he still created man, etc so even thou Allah knew 50 solat were too much for man he still told the prophet cause he also knew that Musa will send him back to him for reduction, and Allah in his magnificent and grandeur had already predetermined every thing.
So you see you really need to be the one doing the thinking

proo212: @Lanrexlan, you are still not thinking. "Allah" created man weak so he knew man could not sustain worship like his angels. Why did he order 50 solats? If man did 50 solats, you will not have time to work or do anything!

@Maclatunji, Allah is supposed to be all knowing of all things, how come his creation suggests a thing and he adopts his suggestion? And this is not the only time that it happened.

Please, I mean no insult. I am asking you to think.

Allah expresses his will in many ways. The bottomline is that it was always going to be 5 daily solat but how we would arrive at that number, Allah chose to make that way. Divine wisdom is divine my myopic human thinker. #LOL

Al-Baqir:


Ramadhan mubarak! Lanrexlan, I know you are one of those brothers on NL that reasons and dialogue in an intellectual manner.

Ramadan Mubarak brother Al-Baqir.

Al-Baqir:
I'm Very curious about that story of Salat. I recount it as a teenager too. Are those^a tale or recorded story in an "authentic source" or just Ulama's fabrication?

The story of the Mira'aj or my explanations about Musa(pbuh) knowing the people?
if it's the Later,ithat's my own explanations and the former is an Hadith.

Al-Baqir:
1. Remember the holy prophet (saws) was appointed as a prophet at the age of 40. Was is just a coincidence?

To me, age 40 is a long age to understudy your society. Musa's society is quite different from the holy prophet's society (Jew-Israelite vs Arab). Saying Musa knew people more than Muhammad is illogical. He knew children of Israel not the Arab. Muhammad at age 40 knew his people far better. So Musa is not in a pole position to direct my prophet of what to do against the Arab. Perhaps previous Arab prophet like prophet Salih would have been in a great position.

What's the difference?
The people of arabia before the prophethood of Prophet(pbuh) were ignorant.Allah called them a people who know not.
They engaged in idol worship,bury their female children alive,engaging in drinking and other immorality.The Prophet(pbuh) came and reformed his people.
How will it had been if the Prophet(pbuh) came and said to these arabia people whose are not deep-rooted in faith yet that Allah has enjoined 50 solats on them? Allah says in the Qu'ran in Surah Al-Baqarah 2:108 -Or do you want to ask your Messenger (Muhammad Peace be upon him ) as Mûsa (Moses) was asked before And he who changes Faith for disbelief,verily, he has gone astray from the Right Way.What was Musa(pbuh) asked? He was asked to show them Allah face to face[Surah An-Nisa 4:153].The hearts of the people are alike,in some verses of the Qu'ran Allah is telling muslims that they shouldn't ask about things that will cause them trouble that nations before them asked such questions and caused them ruined.
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Leave me as I leave you) for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their prophets.So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can."[Sahih Al-Bukhari Book 92,Hadith Number 391]
What I am driving at here is that the people are alike be it Arabian or Israelite,so Musa(pbuh) advising the Prophet(pbuh) about the dwellers of the earth is not illogical.

Al-Baqir:
2.Second, Allah never ordered any Ummah (community) to establish (wajibat - obligatory) salat except the holy prophet's Ummah. So what's the concern of Musa's 50 or 5 salat with children of Israel.

Surah Al-Anbiya 21:73 -And We made them(prophets) leaders,guiding (mankind) by Our Command,and We revealed them the doing of good deeds,performing Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât),and the giving of Zakât and of Us (Alone) they were the worshippers.

Al-Baqir:
The story of declaration of 50salat then reduced to 5 is a hoax, says the "household of the holy prophet (saws)".

Then you will have to deny the Prophet(pbuh) meeting Musa(pbuh) during the Mira'aj.

Al-Baqir:
3. Even if Allah ordered Salat once in a day, there people that will never pay heed.

Salam akhi

Sure,People that won't do won't do it.Walaikum Salam Waramatulah Wabarakatuh.

lanrexlan:
What I am driving at here is that the people are alike be it Arabian or Israelite,so Musa(pbuh) advising the Prophet(pbuh) about the dwellers of the earth is not illogical.

lanrexlan:


What's the difference?
The people of arabia before the prophethood of Prophet(pbuh) were ignorant.Allah called them a people who know not.
They engaged in idol worship,bury their female children alive,engaging in drinking and other immorality.The Prophet(pbuh) came and reformed his people.

You missed a vital point brother. Yes people might be similar in many areas but there still remain cultural and social differences between these two different communities. The time difference between Musa (as) and Muhammad (saws) is too large for dead Musa to know the state of "people" of another community he never set foot on, for that matter - Centuries upon centuries upon centuries between Musa and Ahmad (pbu -them). Man grows so also his reasons, style, civilization etc. In the case of Arabian, their regression has no equal. Arabian peninsula was worst to what Nabi Musa (as) ever knew of his Israelite people.

The vital point you miss was the fact that the holy prophet (saws) had studied his people for decades before finally being appointed as a prophet at the age of 40. Therefore he knew them, their psychic, present state etc more than anybody talkless of century old dead Musa.

Thereby in my view, Nabi Musa (as) is not in a suitable position to give such advice.

To every community, We send a warner (messenger) who knew their affair. (Not far from Qur'an verse).

lanrexlan:
How will it had been if the Prophet(pbuh) came and said to these arabia people whose are not deep-rooted in faith yet that Allah has enjoined 50 solats on them?

Ma sha Allah! Forget about 50. Even 5, they will not pray. Why? Because there's no Aqeemu salat for @underlined. Only the believers are ordered to perform Salat. That's why Salat was not the First thing the holy prophet (saws) introduced to the community. Iman was the first and most difficult. Once your heart truly recognized Allah and His prophet, then you've become a believer and there will be willingness to other things (salat, sawm, Hajj, zakat, Jihad etc) that follow. The Munafiq or kafir doesn't pray Salat because there is no IMAN.

Even when he (saws) later introduced it (salat), it was gradual. Salat used to be 2 rakats all through before order for modification into 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

lanrexlan:
Surah Al-Anbiya 21:73 -And We made them(prophets) leaders,guiding (mankind) by Our Command,and We revealed them the doing of good deeds,performing Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât),and the giving of Zakât and of Us (Alone) they were the worshippers.

Again No Ummah before Muhammad (saws)'s Ummah was ordered to establish as-Salat.

The above quoted verse says prophets were ordered not their Ummah @bolded. In fact the word "waj alnahum Aimmatan" - and We made them Imams (Leaders)...", do not only refer to prophets but also saints amongst the progeny of Ibrahim (as).

Each Ummah, however, might have their own form of worship but its definitely not this Iqama Salat specially given to Sayyidul Bashar (saws).

Therefore, nabi Musa (as) knows nothing about daily Salat given to the Ummah of Muhammad (saws).

According to Qur'an what's being demanded from these previous Ummah is "believe in God and do righteousness".

And remember in Sura Taha, Nabi Musa was ordered to perform Salat but NOT the Children of Israel.

lanrexlan:
Then you will have to deny the Prophet(pbuh) meeting Musa(pbuh) during the Mira'aj.

This has nothing to do with denial of al-isra wal Meeraj. Its all about 50 salat being reduced to 5 salat on the advice of Musa (as).

My believe is when Allah (swt) invited his Habib (saws) to His domain, everything that has to do with Salat (among many other things) were given to him; and it was as it was - 5 daily Salat for his Ummah.

The story of Musa (as) repeatedly asking the holy prophet (saws) to go back and meet Allah to reduce from 50, 45, 40, 35, 30.....5 is questionable.

lanrexlan:
Sure,People that won't do won't do it.Walaikum Salam Waramatulah Wabarakatuh.

Hope you, family and studies are fine. Barak Allahu fik.

Al-Baqir:

You missed a vital point brother. Yes people might be similar in many areas but there still remain cultural and social differences between these two different communities. The time difference between Musa (as) and Muhammad (saws) is too large for dead Musa to know the state of "people" of another community he never set foot on, for that matter - Centuries upon centuries upon centuries between Musa and Ahmad (pbu -them). Man grows so also his reasons, style, civilization etc. In the case of Arabian, their regression has no equal. Arabian peninsula was worst to what Nabi Musa (as) ever knew of his Israelite people.

The vital point you miss was the fact that the holy prophet (saws) had studied his people for decades before finally being appointed as a prophet at the age of 40. Therefore he knew them, their psychic, present state etc more than anybody talkless of century old dead Musa.

Thereby in my view, Nabi Musa (as) is not in a suitable position to give such advice.

To every community, We send a warner (messenger) who knew their affair. (Not far from Qur'an verse).

You just proved my point with the underlined brother.you've nailed it! Arabian regression was worst than that of Musa(pbuh)'s people.What Musa(pbuh) said was that ''Your followers cannot bear fifty prayers a day and by Allah I have tested people before you,and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel (in vain)''.If Musa(pbuh) had been tested with a people whose regression doesn't match that of the people of arabia that time as you rightly opined,don't you think such a person should be in the position to give such advice?
Hope you get what I am driving at?

Al-Baqir:
Ma sha Allah! Forget about 50. Even 5, they will not pray. Why? Because there's no Aqeemu salat for @underlined. Only the believers are ordered to perform Salat. That's why Salat was not the First thing the holy prophet (saws) introduced to the community. Iman was the first and most difficult. Once your heart truly recognized Allah and His prophet, then you've become a believer and there will be willingness to other things (salat, sawm, Hajj, zakat, Jihad etc) that follow. The Munafiq or kafir doesn't pray Salat because there is no IMAN.

Even when he (saws) later introduced it (salat), it was gradual. Salat used to be 2 rakats all through before order for modification into 2, 4, 4, 3, 4.

Agree with you bro but Munafiq offer solat according to the Qu'ran

Al-Baqir:
Again No Ummah before Muhammad (saws)'s Ummah was ordered to establish as-Salat.

The above quoted verse says prophets were ordered not their Ummah @bolded. In fact the word "waj alnahum Aimmatan" - and We made them Imams (Leaders)...", do not only refer to prophets but also saints amongst the progeny of Ibrahim (as).

Each Ummah, however, might have their own form of worship but its definitely not this Iqama Salat specially given to Sayyidul Bashar (saws).

Therefore, nabi Musa (as) knows nothing about daily Salat given to the Ummah of Muhammad (saws).

According to Qur'an what's being demanded from these previous Ummah is "believe in God and do righteousness".

And remember in Sura Taha, Nabi Musa was ordered to perform Salat but NOT the Children of Israel.

I am afraid you are wrong here brother.Allah rightly says in the Qu'ran in
Surah Al-Maidah 5:12 -Indeed Allâh took the covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allâh said:"I am with you if you perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) and give Zakât and believe in My Messengers;honour and assist them, and lend a good loan to Allâh.......
There are other verses that support and buttress this.

Al-Baqir:
This has nothing to do with denial of al-isra wal Meeraj. Its all about 50 salat being reduced to 5 salat on the advice of Musa (as).

My believe is when Allah (swt) invited his Habib (saws) to His domain, everything that has to do with Salat (among many other things) were given to him; and it was as it was - 5 daily Salat for his Ummah.

The story of Musa (as) repeatedly asking the holy prophet (saws) to go back and meet Allah to reduce from 50, 45, 40, 35, 30.....5 is questionable.

I am not saying you are denying Al-Isra wa Mira'aj.I simply said 'You will have to deny The meeting of the Prophet(pbuh) with Musa(pbuh)

Al-Baqir:
Hope you, family and studies are fine. Barak Allahu fik.

Alhamudulilah,everything is going on fine.Amin,Shukran dear brother.

lanrexlan: You just proved my point with the underlined brother.you've nailed it! Arabian regression was worst than that of Musa(pbuh)'s people.What Musa(pbuh) said was that ''Your followers cannot bear fifty prayers a day and by Allah I have tested people before you,and I have tried my level best with Bani Israel (in vain)''.If Musa(pbuh) had been tested with a people whose regression doesn't match that of the people of arabia that time as you rightly opined,don't you think such a person should be in the position to give such advice?
Hope you get what I am driving at?

In one of sahih sittah, even Musa wish to be among the followers of the last prophet (saws). Generally speaking, people will run away from 50 prayer but there are particular rare individuals among the followers of Muhammad (saws) whose love for Allah is so intense that 50 salat will just be a number. Nothing tire them from returning often to their Lord in His remembrance.

Really, I got your message perfectly. where I'm not that convince is just that 50 was reduced to 5 on the advice of Musa. Such hadith also exist in the narration of Miraj in al-kaafi and other shi'a books of hadith not that am nagging at "sunni" hadith.

My perception lies on the fact that the holy prophet (saws) had studied his people and environment for 40 years before his divine mission. That is a healthy years to decide (if he's ever allowed by His Lord) what they can embrace. And salat is not prescribed on any except the believer.

lanrexlan:
Agree with you bro but Munafiq offer solat according to the Qu'ran

Ma sha Allah! What I meant is Munafiq pray openly when they are with the believers. They abandon salat when alone with their evil plotters. In anyway, that's not salat. A munafiq who says "Ash adu ana Muhammadan Rasulullah" before he began his salat, yet plot against the prophet, doubt his prophethood etc, such salat is not accepted.

lanrexlan:
I am afraid you are wrong here brother.Allah rightly says in the Qu'ran in
Surah Al-Maidah 5:12 -Indeed Allâh took the covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allâh said:"I am with you if you perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) and give Zakât and believe in My Messengers;honour and assist them, and lend a good loan to Allâh.......
There are other verses that support and buttress this.

A great error on my part there. Thanks for that. Noted.

However, as I said earlier, they might have their own form of prayer but not the kind and form given to Muhammad (saws); that's where my emphasis lies. Sura Fatiha was never revealed to any nation before (hadith).

I simply appreciate the fact that the same word "Salat" is used.

lanrexlan:
Alhamudulilah,everything is going on fine.Amin,Shukran dear brother.

May Allah accept our insignificant efforts as act of ibadat.

Pls, i want muslims to enlighten me on this story of salat.

In that story, Muslims believed that Muhammed went to Allah to collect salats, and when he was coming back, he met Moses who advised him to go back and ask Allah to reduce 50 salats given by Allah to five salats. Please , i want to ask questions concern this story.

First, this salat's story, did it happen in Muhammed's dream?

Secondly, salat is not something that can be touched but message with can be communicate to Muhammed the same way the other verses of Quran were communicated to Muhammed. Why did Muhammed needs to go to God to collect salats?

Thirdly, how did Muhammed get to Allah? On what path did he follows to God?

Fourt,did Muhammed see the face of Allah and that of Moses that advised him ?

I will appreciate if my questions is answerd.

Ayomivic: Pls, i want muslims to enlighten me on this story of salat.

I hope you ask these set of questions with sincerity and good faith otherwise we will just start the usual Jesus - Muhammad comparism.

Ayomivic:
In that story, Muslims believed that Muhammed went to Allah to collect salats, and when he was coming back, he met Moses who advised him to go back and ask Allah to reduce 50 salats given by Allah to five salats. Please , i want to ask questions concern this story.

There are two arguments put forward by different scholars on this issue. One as you've just narrated above. The rationale put forward was the fact that Musa (as) had dealt with similar situation of "salat" being prescribed to the children of Israel. And due to their defiant nature, he advised the prophet of Islam to seek Allah's permission to reduce the number to 5 so that it doesn't become a burden.

On the other hand, other scholars argued that though the prophet of Islam (saws) did met with Musa (as) but questioned the advice of Salat reduction. The fact that the prophet of Islam (saws) reached the age of 40 in a society primarily sent to, he had acquire all the necessary information pertaining to the nature, style, attitude, reaction of his community thereby, he alone is in better situation to determine what suit his community, not Musa (as) who had died centuries ago and of different community entirely.

Besides only the believers are enjoyed to pray not every tom, dick and harry of the society.

In short, according to this reasoning, there was nothing like 50 salat later reduced to 5. Only and only 5 salat were prescribed.

I personally followed this argument.

Ayomivic:
First, this salat's story, did it happen in Muhammed's dream?

It is called "Israh wal Miraj - Ascension". According to a report narrated by Aisha (a wife of the holy prophet), she claimed the holy prophet (saws) slept on her lap when he went through this blessed journey. Meaning it was a dream.

This report is a big lie and fabrication of ignorant

The reason was that Aisha got married to the holy prophet (saws) in the 2nd year of Hijrah whereas Salat had bEen prescribed 15years before then. Besides if the report as per the age of Aisha according to Sahih Bukhari is anything to go by, it is proven she hasn't even been born when salat was prescribed.

The concesus of majority of Muslim scholars is the journey was both physical and spiritual.

Ayomivic:
Secondly, salat is not something that can be touched but message with can be communicate to Muhammed the same way the other verses of Quran were communicated to Muhammed. Why did Muhammed needs to go to God to collect salats?

The essence of the ascension journey was not sole reason to "collect" salat. Salat was one of the many things he was given and exposed to.

Quran confirmed this:
"Glory to (God) Who did take His servant for a journey by night from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque, whose precincts We did bless, in order that We might show him some of Our signs: for He is the One who hear and see (all things)" ~Q.17:1

According to Ibn Hisham and Ibn Saad (both early muslim historian), both established Muhammad and his family had been offering nawafil salat (non-compulsory superogatory prayer) before the compulsory Salat was ordered.

Ayomivic:
Thirdly, how did Muhammed get to Allah? On what path did he follows to God?

Where's God? How does He look?
In the saying of Imam Ali (as) "God created whereness but no where can contain Him".

You can never describe God or say He occupied a dwelling place for He is the creator and nothing can be used to describe Him.

For example, both Quran and Bible related that Moses (as) used to converse with God on the Mount.
Is the mount the dwelling place of God? Was the voice heard by Moses God's voice?

God is beyond all that. The mount at that time represent the holiest place to communicate with God and the voice was one of the means God communicate with His beloved servant.

The journey of the holy prophet (saws) was spiritual into the highest spiritual dimensions. And that wasn't the only of its kind he journeyed. In Islam, there is something we called "Saluk - e- Arifan" - spiritual journey of the mystics".

How this journey is being thread, what you experience, the mode of communication etc is a difficult explanation to normal - physical understanding. It is something every being who thread the path of "Saluk-e-Arifan" can comprehend.

Various hadith (prophetic narration) however describe this journey.

Ayomivic:
Fourt,did Muhammed see the face of Allah and that of Moses that advised him ?

I will appreciate if my questions is answerd.

Qur'an says:

"No vision can see Him but He sees all visions..."

The spiritual proximity to God makes you closer to a higher spiritual echelon where you feel the presence of the most powerful.

Muhammad (saws) did not see God but was in the highest spiritual proximity with God where he saw beyond the physical worlds.

[quote author=lanrexlan]Says the scholar that is very skilled in the anatomy of the Qu'ran! But Seriously what's your problem? People following it are not complaining and here you are crying over what doesn't concern you.Why taking parecetamol for people's headache? Being an hatetheist is a bad thing.

Allah says in the glorious Qu'ran inSurah Ar-Rum 30;17-18 -So glorify Allâh,when you come up to the evening and when you enter the morning.And His are all the praises and thanks in the heavens and the earth, and (glorify Him) in the afternoon and when you come up to the time,when the day begins to decline.
When you come to the evening,simply means offer Magrib and Ishai prayers,evening means the time between afternoon and night.The verse continues and says 'when you enter the morning' i.e. Offers Fajr prayer.
The next verse says glorify Allah in the afternoon i.e. Asr prayer and when day begins to decline i.e. Zuhr prayer.
So that's the 3 in your interpretation abi

So in your feeble mind Mr scholar,you are looking for the verse in the Qu'ran that says 'These ar the 5 daily prayers muslims should offer'.I shake my head for you Thanks for the enlightenment

Weah96: FYI, I'm really curious, so can a practicing Muslim please answer the question. I mean no disrespect to your religion, or beejaay btw. Does Allah forbid Muslims from praying 6X a day? Or is 5 both the minimum and maximum?

In Qu 53 vs 3-4,Allah said " Nor does he say(aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration send down to him". This verses of the quran made it clear that the prophet does not speak or say anything of his own rather what Allah has ordained to him