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Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? - Islam for Muslims (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by true2god: 8:20am On Jul 21, 2014
BetaThings:
Your username includes a reference to God
So who validated the stories/claims you believe about that God
I dont claim to be a prophet, it is just a username. Anyone that call himself a provide is expected to live a high moral standard as an example for his generation, and not otherwise.

If I am a prophet, my revelations should not be contradictory, I must not be lustfull, I must not engage in wars to force pple to accept me as a prophet, I must know that getting down with a girl of 9yrs (while I was 54) is morally wrong irrespective of what my culture says, sleeping with captured slaves, ets. All these are what your prophet did (all recorded in the hadith).

That aside anyway, concerning cloudstar question, is there anywhere, in the koran, that allah asked you guys to be kissing a black stone in mecca? Is there anywhere you guys were asked to encircle the kabba seven times? Are these practices carried out prior Islamic era or not, by the arabian pagan worshippers?
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by AlBaqir(m): 1:03pm On Jul 21, 2014
cloudstar:



Are you blind or stupid? Let me repeat myself:

Absolutely NO sir! You don't need to repeat yourself. Your biggest problem is you beat round bushes all the time.

cloudstar:
I believe some historical accounts that have been proven i.e. I believe Mohammad taught Monotheism which was a BIG deal in 7th century Arabia at that time. I believe he married a 40 year old woman when he was 25 and a 6 year old girl when he was over 50. Those accounts are historic and can be traced. However, I do not believe in the theological accounts that has no historical basis i.e. Adam was over 60 cubits tall. Also, the Quran gives several different accounts about the creation of the universe.

How does above 'reply of yours' answer the Question: "Do you believe Muhammad was a prophet of God?" And Do you believe Quran is a divine revelation?

You see the reply is far away from the question yet you have audacity to abuse with silly words. You need to be examine by a psychiatrist with an 'Armageddon of the brain'.

cloudstar:
You and I have defined what worship is - all I have asked you is this -

So in your own definition how does "touching and kissing" the black stone amount to worship?

cloudstar:
WHERE IN THE QURAN DID ALLAH INSTRUCT MUSLIMS TO KISS THE KABBAH AND CIRCLE AROUND IT?

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love God, then Follow me..."

"You (the believers) have the best examples in the messenger of God; for those who believe in God and the hereafter...

"Obey God and His messenger...

Those Quranic command (and more) compelled us, the followers of Muhammad, to 'kiss and touch' the black stone after the practice and instructions of the holy prophet (saws).
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by AlBaqir(m): 1:08pm On Jul 21, 2014
Ak4ril:

I implore Al baqr to pls quote the source of the hadith he quoted.

The source has been given to you since. Ask your ustaz about Kanzul Ummal, a sunni collection of Hadith by Ali muttaqi al-Hindi (888AH). He was a household name among the Muhaddith.

1. Kanzul ‘Amal, by Muttaqi al-Hindi, fil Fadhail-e-Mecca (The number of this hadith is 12521 in “Al-Muhadith Software)

2. Abul Hassan al-Qatan in “Al-Tawalaat”

3. And Hakim quoted it in “Al-Mustadrak ala sahihain”, vol. 1, page 457

NB: Imam Al-hakim said this hadith is Sahih by the conditions stipulated by the two sheikh (bukhari and muslim).

Another version:
"Umar while visiting the Kaba, said before the Hajar al-aswad, “You cannot do anything! But I kiss you in order to follow Rasulullah (‘alaihi ‘s-salam).” ‘Ali (as) said upon hearing this,
“Rasulullah (saw) said, ‘On the Day of Judgment, the Hajar al-aswad will intercede for people.’”


This hadith^ is reported by at-Thirmidhi, an-Nasai, al-Baihaki, at-Tabarani and al-Bukhari in his History And ‘Umar thanked ‘Ali (as).

Also see “Al-Farooq” by Shibli Naumani, page 323, published by Maktaba Rehmania, Pakistan
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by AlBaqir(m): 2:23pm On Jul 21, 2014
tosin2013:

This ur "hadith " needs a thorough verification and authentication. Source pls

I hope you can verify some of the evidence provided above.

It is very unfortunate that Imam bukhari abridged the hadith in his "Sahih" while he reported the full version of the narration in his Historical book.
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by cloudstar: 5:56pm On Jul 24, 2014
AlBaqir

Absolutely NO sir! You don't need to repeat yourself. Your biggest problem is you beat round bushes all the time.


Really, I am not the one that has gone around in circles just to answer a simple question

How does above 'reply of yours' answer the Question: "[u]Do you believe Muhammad was a prophet of God?" And Do you believe Quran is a divine revelation?

You asked me what I believed and I told you.

You see the reply is far away from the question yet you have audacity to abuse with silly words. You need to be examine by a psychiatrist with an 'Armageddon of the brain'.


No one abused you Bros. You are the one taking offense to a simple question.

So in your own definition how does "touching and kissing" the black stone amount to worship?

It is worship because Allah didn't instruct any Muslim to do it. Mohammad is not Allah and Mohammad is not perfect, he is a man just like you and I and wasn't sure if he will go to heaven or not. Ascribing partners to Allah and giving any other object worship is considered an abomination in Islam.

"Say (O Muhammad): 'if you (the believers) love God, then Follow me..."

"You (the believers) have the best examples in the messenger of God; for those who believe in God and the hereafter...

"Obey God and His messenger...

Can you please quote the verses you mentioned so we can refer to them and put them in context.

Those Quranic command (and more) compelled us, the followers of Muhammad, to 'kiss and touch' the black stone after the practice and instructions of the holy prophet (saws).

No it didn't. The Quran never tells Muslims to do any such thing. Mohammad decided to do what he wanted against the Quran instructions. The Quran explicitly tells Mulsims not to venerate any object:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper. I am quoting from Yusuf Ali.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, the Quran and Allah teaches that the veneration or worship of any object or stones or the Kabbah in this case is idolatry. Yet Mohammad didn't heed Allah's instructions for reasons unknown to us. And here you are telling us that Allah's words are not as important as Mohammad's actions.

The issue then comes up - Did Mohammad disobey Allah or did Allah provide an incorrect commandant?
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by cloudstar: 6:02pm On Jul 24, 2014
true2god: I dont claim to be a prophet, it is just a username. Anyone that call himself a provide is expected to live a high moral standard as an example for his generation, and not otherwise.

If I am a prophet, my revelations should not be contradictory, I must not be lustfull, I must not engage in wars to force pple to accept me as a prophet, I must know that getting down with a girl of 9yrs (while I was 54) is morally wrong irrespective of what my culture says, sleeping with captured slaves, ets. All these are what your prophet did (all recorded in the hadith).

That aside anyway, concerning cloudstar question, is there anywhere, in the koran, that allah asked you guys to be kissing a black stone in mecca? Is there anywhere you guys were asked to encircle the kabba seven times? Are these practices carried out prior Islamic era or not, by the arabian pagan worshippers?

There is no where in the Quran that Allah instructs Muslims to venerate/respect or worship any object. This is what the Quran said:

Surah 5:90 = O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

Surah 21:66 = He said, "Do you then worship beside GOD what possesses no power to benefit you or harm you?"

So, any Muslim that tells you Allah instructed them to kiss and circle or venerate the Kabbah is a liar and is going against the Quran. Did Mohammad kiss the Kabbah, yes He did - that is not recorded in the Quran but in the Hadiths. It is the same Hadiths that Sunnis respect but Shias but into question. Be that as it may, why did Muhammad kiss an object that Allah explicitly forbid is the bone that Muslims need to answer
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by AlBaqir(m): 12:10pm On Jul 25, 2014
^Thanks for wasting my time as usual. Am done with u forever on NL.
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by lanrexlan(m): 10:26pm On Jul 25, 2014
AlBaqir: ^Thanks for wasting my time as usual. Am done with u forever on NL.
Finally,the 'cobweb' in your eyes about this guy has vanished.Alhamudulilah oo,happy for ya cheesy

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Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by cloudstar: 7:05am On Jul 26, 2014
AlBaqir: ^Thanks for wasting my time as usual. Am done with u forever on NL.

As usual, running away with your tails between your legs
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by AlBaqir(m): 11:57am On Jul 26, 2014
lanrexlan: Finally,the 'cobweb' in your eyes about this guy has vanished.Alhamudulilah oo,happy for ya cheesy

Thanks dear brother. I don remove the cobweb forever grin
Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by BetaThings: 5:13am On Jul 28, 2014
true2god: I dont claim to be a prophet, it is just a username. Anyone that call himself a provide is expected to live a high moral standard as an example for his generation, and not otherwise.
You are evading the question
Do you believe in God?
If yes, how did you arrive at believing in that God
How did you validate the truth of the message that led you to believe in God?

true2god:
If I am a prophet, my revelations should not be contradictory, I must not be lustfull, I must not engage in wars to force pple to accept me as a prophet, I must know that getting down with a girl of 9yrs (while I was 54) is morally wrong irrespective of what my culture says, sleeping with captured slaves, ets. All these are what your prophet did (all recorded in the hadith).
Tell us the Prophets you believe in and let us
discuss their revelations, marital activities etc

1 Like

Re: Symbolism Of The "Black Stone" - Polytheism Or Monotheism? by Empiree: 5:58pm On Sep 17, 2017
this thread again. I remembered cloudstar

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