This question is drawn from the historical records of Ifa of which I seek a better understanding.

After the flood, Olodumare decided to create another set of beings to do his will on this planet. He created a female, Eni-bi-eni (translated as “One in our likeness”) a.k.a. Ninibinini, and handed her to an Irunmole known as Ènìyàn to be his wife and for both of them to populate the world. They begat 16 children - 8 sets of twins - otherwise known as ọmọ ènìyàn but afterward more and more people were created, the last being the oyinbo. (see THE CREATION STORY - http://ifatraining.weebly.com/library.html)

Given that: Irunmole[/i]s are spirit entities (say, ministers of light); [i]Orisha[/i]s are thought of as humans who accomplished exemplary feats for which they were duly recognized and elevated to the status of [i]Orisha[/i]s; the traditional concept of reincarnation is that parents can come to this world again as offspring of their children and children can birth (become ancestors of) their parents; there are numerous records in [i]Ifa of various Irunmole[/i]s having children; and there seems to be no rule in [i]Ifa (to my knowledge) excluding such Irunmole[/i]s from reincarnation;

1. is it impossible for the offspring of these [i]Irunmole[/i]s to have as descendants these [i]Irunmole[/i]s, and if so
2. if (1) above is true, wouldn't the [i]Orisha[/i]s be the reincarnated [i]Irunmole[/i]s?
If you say that it is impossible or possible, kindly try to support your position with logical (step-by-step) arguments. One reason for bringing up this topic is that I hope we can use our conclusions to inform ourselves better about various versions of certain events in history as recorded in Ifa.

NOTE: [i]Ènìyàn is the same person as Iwa who is Oluiwa and also known as Oduduwa; the beings who dominated this world before the flood are known as Eníyán (the rejected ones) and some escaped the flood (examples include the beasts described in the biblical books of Daniel and Revelations; the famous Yoruba author known as Fagunwa used them for his book "Igbo Olodumare" or "Forest of a thousand demons".

D.O. Fagunwa's epic compares with 'The pilgrim progress.' How I loved 'Ireke Onibudo', it was my best thriller of all. Amo4ce, karaole o, I miss you quite much, cheers.

Amor4ce, Prexious, it's nice to converge with you enlightened souls again.

This is a nice topic to use in exploring the hidden messages in a number of documented Yoruba myths, classics and tales: Igbo Olodumare, Ogboju Ode ninu Igbo Irunmale, Ireke Onibudo, The Myths of Ife, and so on..

First, people need to know who and what Irunmale is and what incarnation is. Likewise, we need enlightenement on the concept of birth and death, without which a reincarnation is meaningless.

I see also that you attributed "IWA" as Eniyan, Oduduwa and Oluiwa. We should discuss Iwa in a different context so as not to derail the subject of Irunmole and Reincarnation.

In summary,

1. What is birth, what is death?
2. What does it mean to be reincarnated?
3. What is the nature of Irunmale/Irunmole?
4. What is the nature of Orisha?
5. Can mankind come as Orisha or not?
6. Can mankind become Irunmole or not?
7. Can Orisha become Irunmole or not?

In fact, who is mankind?

Sorry all about the way I acted on that Canaaland connection thread; I was going through a lot at that time.

MetaPhysical, IWA here is in reference to the personality, not that other context. My Baba Awo confirmed that IWA is OLUIWA, more proof can be seen in the names of other divinities like Olosa who is also known as Osa.

How about we start with contributions of relevant Ifa stanzas concerning reincarnation-death-rebirth. In that creation story about the creation of Ninibinini, it is mentioned that Olodumare created her at location X bringing her to earth, confirming that our journey starts in heaven - orun n'ile, aye l'oja.

amor4ce: Sorry all about the way I acted on that Canaaland connection thread; I was going through a lot at that time.

MetaPhysical, IWA here is in reference to the personality, not that other context. My Baba Awo confirmed that IWA is OLUIWA, more proof can be seen in the names of other divinities like Olosa who is also known as Osa.

How about we start with contributions of relevant Ifa stanzas concerning reincarnation-death-rebirth. In that creation story about the creation of Ninibinini, it is mentioned that Olodumare created her at location X bringing her to earth, confirming that our journey starts in heaven - orun n'ile, aye l'oja.

No dear brother, we all have the time to groan and hurt on this course. There is no precedence for this deep quest that has captivated us, we are different from promoters of culture, maybe we are researchers of culture.

Hanging somewhere at Efunyela hall is the saying, "only the deep calleth to the deep". That's Awo's line of thought, He apparently picked that from the scriptures. Life is good when a man find purpose in it, good purpose.

Let me get to metaphysical and be back...

MetaPhysical: Amor4ce, Prexious, it's nice to converge with you enlightened souls again.

This is a nice topic to use in exploring the hidden messages in a number of documented Yoruba myths, classics and tales: Igbo Olodumare, Ogboju Ode ninu Igbo Irunmale, Ireke Onibudo, The Myths of Ife, and so on..

First, people need to know who and what Irunmale is and what incarnation is. Likewise, we need enlightenement on the concept of birth and death, without which a reincarnation is meaningless.

I see also that you attributed "IWA" as Eniyan, Oduduwa and Oluiwa. We should discuss Iwa in a different context so as not to derail the subject of Irunmole and Reincarnation.

In summary,

1. What is birth, what is death?
2. What does it mean to be reincarnated?
3. What is the nature of Irunmale/Irunmole?
4. What is the nature of Orisha?
5. Can mankind come as Orisha or not?
6. Can mankind become Irunmole or not?
7. Can Orisha become Irunmole or not?

In fact, who is mankind?

Great metaphysical, Amo4ce et al, the bearers of the Yoruba touch of enlightenment. I salute you o, Iba o gbodo hunmo. Its not about the best argument, but about the refinement of thought, and you have exhibited great refinement that has got across to me all along, I am blessed to have rub minds with you and others, meta.

Mo yo fun e, mo yo funra mi.

1. What is birth, what is death?

From what I have learnt in my life as a Yorubaman, birth is one of the three things that the Yoruba believe that humanity seek after:

oun meta l'eda nwa,
Eda nwowo, eda nwomo,
Eda nwa'tunbotan aye.

This are the three things: owo, (money), omo, (offspring), Atunbotan-aye, (the rebirth of the earth). What more can I say? The fathers have said it. It is either one go with the ancestors or concoct his or her own opinion from various popular frames.

3. What is the nature of Irunmale/Irunmole?

As for me, the Irunmole are the Yoruba ancestors that arrived at Yoruba land, they were 'ore-imule' that is, friends (loyal to an oath of allegiance that border on) securing the landmass. They were the first generation of the migrants that entered Yorubaland.

4. What is the nature of Orisha?

Orisa were the main ancestors who left the Yoruba well spring. These were men from various walks of life who make the list of the head of the chosen people (eniyan). Orisa is a variant of Eniyan, meaning "a personality of choice", so to say.

Orisa is "selected by the head" (of State) literally.

7. Can Orisha become Irunmole or not?

Orisha is like someone from the senate, while Irumole is like Honorable. Orisha were the people that were given the mandate to establish Yoruba civilization, but they did not discover Yorubaland, they first settle towards the north.

But the Irumole began searching for a new land and came southward. Irumole were the relayed explorers who took the exploration baton from Orisha people. Now a hint is given us in journey system that Yoruba employed in this place-name: IJESHA. What this mean is "the oddysey of the choosen"

Irumole on the other hands, means iru: sprout, mole: light, i.e. kindred of light or kindred of the luminary. So who was the luminnary? Ijesha, oridi, isana. ISANA is another way round to highlight the LUMINARY again.

Observe that they always attach numbers to Irumole, this was the number of young merchant navy that first navigate Yorubaland. They don't attach numbers to Orisha. Now there is a way to verify all this assertions, let's peruse Ifa corpus for some insight: ODU OSE....

Konu-nkoho nii sawo ewi Alado,
Orun mu dede ija kanle, awo Ode Ijesha,
Alakan tii gbeti do, ti t'ega iya pepepe,
Awo Oluweri.

Adifa fun igba irumole ojukotun,
Abu fun igba irumole, ojukosi,
Nijo ti won nt'ikole orun
Bo wa kole aye

Won la gbo oro won lagbo opa,
won lana won la bi ese nto,
won pee gun, egun o gbo,
won pe oro, oro ogba,

won gbera, won to Olodumare lo,
Olodumare ni Obinrin aarin yin nko?
won lawon o fi tobinre se!..........

This gives you the idea of the Irumole-number I earlier talked about. It did not just drop from the winds, it has its historical significance. The above Ifa verse is set to Odu Ose, which means the precept of the founders.

will be bak later to reply dis.

meanwhile check, www.supergists.com

kα̲̅γ̲̣̣̥ over to those wey dey form herbalist on ÑL..

Yea, ah don dey see una already.…

I made it in the front page. Yipee!!!

Let me book space

Irunmole? Orisha? I dey fear these things o! Ds na horror thread?

U asking me why john lennon left d beatles, who cares, john lennon is dead, so is orunmila and any fuckin orisha.

this is the kind of question u ask ur grand mother.... not nairaland haba

If you ask me...Na who I go ask...The matter when you see so, e tey wei e start....*singing in omawumi's voice*

This is Story For The Gods, Question for the Gods

Does of you writing dots as comments. Why don't u just click "follow" to follow the thread??

Anyway, I have nothing cos I know next to nothing of what those Babalawos are saying and I just follow the thread to learn.

OrlandoOwoh: OP, "Forest of Thausand Daemons" is not the English translation of "Igbo Olodumare", but "Ogboju Ode Ninu Igbo Olodumare." Or do you mean "Aditu Olodumare" (The Mystery of the Gods). Correct me if I'm wrong.

ogboju ode ninu Igbo irunmole
baddest literature evor. reading one page will give you nightmares for weeks

i've got no idea watchu talking bout

OP, "Forest of Thausand Daemons" is not the English translation of "Igbo Olodumare", but "Ogboju Ode Ninu Igbo Olodumare." Or do you mean "Aditu Olodumare" (The Mystery of the Gods). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes they can incarnate... but they do not necessarily become 'Orishas'.
I think...

Interesting read..

I like this

so many questions without proven answers bt i av d blive say ifa dey......only GOD knows ooo

Ptoocool: kα̲̅γ̲̣̣̥ over to those wey dey form herbalist on ÑL..

Yea, ah don dey see una already.…

Sharap!
Just read, look, learn what you v not heared before.

PEGAN pls contribute nah!!! Where are u?

What are irunmoles n what are orisas

Yes they reincarnate to become
NORTHERN NIgERIANS.

Fictions at its peak!

The only fascination i find here is no different than one i get from greek mythology.
Interesting stuff, but no more than a pile of "...."

Anyway,

how did this make FP?






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