MrAnony1:
I read what you wrote, I quoted what you wrote too. I only changed "flogging" to "talking" and fortunately you recognize it as bizarre logic.

Did you read the part about how rarely I disappoint my father, who never beat me? Obviously you did not.

Your logic is therefore grossly flawed.

MissMeiya:

Did you read the part about how rarely I disappoint my father, who never beat me? Obviously you did not.

Your logic is therefore grossly flawed.

I rarely disappoint my father too and my father beat me as part of upbringing. So what's your point?

MrAnony1:
I rarely disappoint my father too and my father beat me as part of upbringing. So what's your point?

You tried to use my statement to claim non physical punishment is as ineffective as physical punishment. Your logic was flawed. That's "my point"

MrAnony1:
Because it is very possible to flog your child solely for the purpose of correcting his/her behaviour and not because you are frustrated or insane. You seem to think that this is impossible. Do you therefore hold that the few times when your mother beat you, it was because her reasonable judgment had failed and she was frustrated?

I said a SIGN of frustration. I hold that a loving and reasonable parent would only flog the offspring as a last resort, and that is a sign of frustration. Yes, my mother was frustrated TWICE because I frustrated her. I simply did not understand the complicated issue at that time, and she had lost patience explaining to me. She later did, pf course, when it all boiled down. But if she had explained earlier, I wouldn't have done what I did.

MrAnony1: Yes it is true that children learn by example and they learn to associate experiences with a sense of morality based on qualified feedback but this is a very vague reply because it doesn't explain why corporal punishment must be excluded from "qualified feedback". For instance, how would you go about reasoning with a 4 year old that stealing meat from the cooking pot is wrong without punishing the kid?

It's not rocket science. At the next meal, the child goes without meat. That is if you roll that way. Personally I can take meat from the cooking pot at any time - without letting it get sour of course (I'll warm it) - so in my home taking food at any timr can never be a sin (maybe except the chiod has known allergies to the food). Even strangers can enter my dining room and take fruits or food on the dining table without having to ask. This is the way I was brought up and it works for me. If stealing food is that much of a big issue for you, go ahead and punish the child but make sure you also don't eat food from your wife's pot without her permission.

MrAnony1: I am not saying that flogging is the only way, I am saying that flogging is a good way and in some cases the best way.

The best way is you either get a vasectomy and stop bringing children who did not ask to be born, into this world; or you learn how to train them properly.

MissMeiya:

I know the slums of America very well. I have never seen a burnt corpse until I came to Nigeria. Never seen a person macheted to death until Nigeria.

I'm sorry to tell you the truth. "The western media" actually isn't all that concerned about Africa.

Well I seen many serial killers and child molesters in america and germany commit heinous acts. White supremacy and gang violence acts. You know the difference between Nigeria and America Meiya The bodies lay out in the open for days before its cleared out. In america...other western countries? The paramedics arrive 30 mins later and put them in body bags. There are stabbings every time in America and Nigeria but people get busted all the time due to rapid response in America while Nigerian security forces ain't that equipped.

As for western media not being concerned? Hahahaha. Most of their report is the bad news. Simple!!!

MissMeiya, don't let him get you worked up. MrAnony1 is usually just like this with misconstruing arguments and building then attacking strawmen.

MrAnony1 I think i've finally realized who you are. You do know we've had this conversation before, elsewhere. As well as the previous rap'e conversation. Kept having waves of Deja vu and now I know why.

MissMeiya:

You tried to use my statement to claim non physical punishment is as ineffective as physical punishment. Your logic was flawed. That's "my point"

Lol...so it was flawed because it doesn't agree with you even though we used the exact same logical method. I see.

MrAnony1:
Lol...so it was flawed because it doesn't agree with you even though we used the exact same logical method. I see.

Sigh. God give me patience.

It was flawed because I gave an immediate comparison between corporal punishment and noncorporal, as I experienced both. You chose to ignore the second part of the argument, so you could claim you used the same logic.

I'm actually going to break it down for you:

My mother beat me for the same things, multiple times, because, as I stated earlier, once a child realizes the temporal nature of pain, it is no longer a deterrent.

In contrast, my father only ever had to tell me once how disappointed he was in a certain behavior, and I never did it again. Psychological effects are longer-lasting and deeper than physical ones.

coachwilcox:

Well I seen many serial killers and child molesters in america and germany commit heinous acts. White supremacy and gang violence acts. You know the difference between Nigeria and America Meiya The bodies lay out in the open for days before its cleared out. In america...other western countries? The paramedics arrive 30 mins later and put them in body bags. There are stabbings every time in America and Nigeria but people get busted all the time due to rapid response in America while Nigerian security forces ain't that equipped.

As for western media not being concerned? Hahahaha. Most of their report is the bad news. Simple!!!

Actually people in America don't watch international news. CNN has a local version and an international version, and guess which one has wider viewership? As a matter of fact, the majority of Americans don't even watch CNN. Guess what? Americans never know what's happening outside of America. We're pretty self-involved over here.

So I can tell you definitively, "the western media" does NOT care as much about Africa as you think it does.


As for the rest, the kinds of violent, tortuous cruelty some Nigerians are capable of would have them locked up in a psychological facilities in the US. And if the authorities didn't do it, the citizens would. But in Nigeria, it's nothing to hear about people pouring acid on someone, or hanging a tire around someone's neck and setting them on fire, or beating their wife in public--people would just watch.

We are talking about how cruelty breeds cruelty in Nigeria and how accepted it is by society. That is what we are comparing.

So let's not pretend.

InesQor: MissMeiya, don't let him get you worked up. MrAnony1 is usually just like this with misconstruing arguments and building then attacking strawmen.

MrAnony1 I think i've finally realized who you are. You do know we've had this conversation before, elsewhere. As well as the previous rap'e conversation. Kept having waves of Deja vu and now I know why.

Actually the sick guy commented on this thread a bit earlier. Guess what he's in favor of.

I think you're right. They keep appearing in the same threads to support one another, and at the same time of day.

InesQor:
I said a SIGN of frustration. I hold that a loving and reasonable parent would only flog the offspring as a last resort, and that is a sign of frustration. Yes, my mother was frustrated TWICE because I frustrated her. I simply did not understand the complicated issue at that time, and she had lost patience explaining to me. She later did, pf course, when it all boiled down. But if she had explained earlier, I wouldn't have done what I did.

Ok, you contradict yourself (I have highlighted where you did so). Did she or did she not explain to you earlier?

It's not rocket science. At the next meal, the child goes without meat. That is if you roll that way. Personally I can take meat from the cooking pot at any time - without letting it get sour of course (I'll warm it) - so in my home taking food at any timr can never be a sin (maybe except the chiod has known allergies to the food). Even strangers can enter my dining room and take fruits or food on the dining table without having to ask. This is the way I was brought up and it works for me. If stealing food is that much of a big issue for you, go ahead and punish the child but make sure you also don't eat food from your wife's pot without her permission.

Oh good, but remember that the point is to teach the child that stealing is bad and not necessarily how permissive the kitchen is. What if your child stole money or told lies or used obscene language he picked up at school. I want to know exactly how you reason with a kid who is yet to fully develop a sound moral reasoning capacity that will enable him to grasp what you are explaining.

The best way is you either get a vasectomy and stop bringing children who did not ask to be born, into this world; or you learn how to train them properly.

This would have been good advice if only you had explained what properly training a kid is and why corporal punishment doesn't qualify. You really need to curb this habit of assuming a point you are yet to prove.

InesQor: MissMeiya, don't let him get you worked up. MrAnony1 is usually just like this with misconstruing arguments and building then attacking strawmen.

MrAnony1 I think i've finally realized who you are. You do know we've had this conversation before, elsewhere. As well as the previous rap'e conversation. Kept having waves of Deja vu and now I know why.

....and who am I?


Edit: And while you are at it, please show how I have misconstrued MissMeiya's argument or attacked a strawman

MrAnony1: Ok, you contradict yourself (I have highlighted where you did so). Did she or did she not explain to you earlier?

She properly explained to me later. She lost patience AT explaining and resorted to flogging me. Surely that's not hard to understand.

MrAnony1: Oh good, but remember that the point is to teach the child that stealing is bad and not necessarily how permissive the kitchen is. What if your child stole money or told lies or used obscene language he picked up at school. I want to know exactly how you reason with a kid who is yet to fully develop a sound moral reasoning capacity that will enable him to grasp what you are explaining.

It is sick to imagine you'll flog a child for using obscene language for the first time if you had not earlier properly instructed him on it, and you don't use it or condone it with anyone else. And if it's not the first time, you still have no reason to flog the child. Rather, you reason with yourself to understand why your previous lesson failed to be absorbed, and you find a more effective way. That is why it is called training. Training is supervised learning.

Similar reasoning applies to a child that steals or tell lies. They are your responsibility to train. Supervise their learning.

MrAnony1: This would have been good advice if only you had explained what properly training a kid is and why corporal punishment doesn't qualify. You really need to curb this habit of assuming a point you are yet to prove.

I have given some of the most lucid explanations for my stance, on this entire thread. Receiving my stance is left to you as an exercise. And there again, you need to curb your strawman fallacies.

MrAnony1:
....and who am I?

See Nairaland rule 10. Since you ask though, is the 2nd letter of your surname not "R"?

*smiles* This is getting far more interesting than I thought. So many intellectuals on here...

To all those wondering why I used the word 'significant', please don't focus on that word. Look closely at the question mark behind it. It signifies doubt, uncertainty...
Remember I said it's not a matter of whether it's right or wrong, rather, it's about how long it will remain as a 'significant' part of this culture.
I hope I have made my point. Thank you...

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Yh of course it is

MissMeiya:

Sigh. God give me patience.

It was flawed because I gave an immediate comparison between corporal punishment and noncorporal, as I experienced both. You chose to ignore the second part of the argument, so you could claim you used the same logic.

I'm actually going to break it down for you:

My mother beat me for the same things, multiple times, because, as I stated earlier, once a child realizes the temporal nature of pain, it is no longer a deterrent.

In contrast, my father only ever had to tell me once how disappointed he was in a certain behavior, and I never did it again. Psychological effects are longer-lasting and deeper than physical ones.

Again, I might as well say:

My mother talked to me for the same things, multiple times, because, as I stated earlier, once a child realizes the temporal nature of talk, it is no longer a deterrent.

In contrast, my father only ever had beat me once how once over a certain ill behavior, and I never did it again. Psychological effects such as the memory of pain inflicted as punishment for foolishness are longer-lasting than mere talk.

The thing I'm pointing out to you which you continually miss is that you an't just assume that your personal experience is the way it ought to be without justifying it.

InesQor:
She properly explained to me later. She lost patience AT explaining and resorted to flogging me. Surely that's not hard to understand.

It seems you have forgotten what you said earlier.

Here is the final sentence of your quote ".....But if she had explained earlier, I wouldn't have done what I did."

Clearly from what you are saying now we can deduce that you would have still done what you did regardless of what she explained seeing that she explained so many times before deciding to beat some sense into you. Therefore we can conclude that beating you in this case was a more effective way to bring you to you senses.

It is sick to imagine you'll flog a child for using obscene language for the first time if you had not earlier properly instructed him on it, and you don't use it or condone it with anyone else. And if it's not the first time, you still have no reason to flog the child. Rather, you reason with yourself to understand why your previous lesson failed to be absorbed, and you find a more effective way. That is why it is called training. Training is supervised learning.

It is not sick to beat a child as a corrective measure. Using obscene language or being rude is enough reason to punish the child using corporal punishment.

Similar reasoning applies to a child that steals or tell lies. They are your responsibility to train. Supervise their learning.

And why can't corrective physical pain be part of their training especially if it is effective as in the case of your mother?

I have given some of the most lucid explanations for my stance, on this entire thread. Receiving my stance is left to you as an exercise. And there again, you need to curb your strawman fallacies.

I must have missed your explanations. Please quote yourself doing this. Also show me where I have attacked a strawman.

InesQor:

See Nairaland rule 10. Since you ask though, is the 2nd letter of your surname not "R"?

No, the second letter of my surname is not "R".

MrAnony1:
Again, I might as well say:

My mother talked to me for the same things, multiple times, because, as I stated earlier, once a child realizes the temporal nature of talk, it is no longer a deterrent.

In contrast, my father only ever had beat me once how once over a certain ill behavior, and I never did it again. Psychological effects such as the memory of pain inflicted as punishment for foolishness are longer-lasting than mere talk.

The thing I'm pointing out to you which you continually miss is that you an't just assume that your personal experience is the way it ought to be without justifying it.

You can't just reverse the facts in my statements and say think that makes your point.

MissMeiya:

You can't just reverse the facts in my statements and say think that makes your point.

They are not facts, they are merely your opinions based on your personal experience

MrAnony1:
They are not facts, they are merely your opinions based on your personal experience

How is my life an opinion.

I see now what InesQor was saying. You cannot argue. You can stop quoting me.

MissMeiya:

How is my life an opinion.

I see now what InesQor was saying. You cannot argue. You can stop quoting me.

Your life is not an opinion but the conclusions you are drawing based solely on your life experiences are opinions. Nothing more.

MrAnony1:
Your life is not an opinion but the conclusions you are drawing based solely on your life experiences are opinions. Nothing more.

We're finished now. This was an exercise in futility.

MrAnony1:
No, the second letter of my surname is not "R".

My bad, then. Not like i expect you'll say it is, even it was. This is an anonymous forum for good reason.

MrAnony1:
It seems you have forgotten what you said earlier.

Here is the final sentence of your quote ".....But if she had explained earlier, I wouldn't have done what I did."

Clearly from what you are saying now we can deduce that you would have still done what you did regardless of what she explained seeing that she explained so many times before deciding to beat some sense into you. Therefore we can conclude that beating you in this case was a more effective way to bring you to you senses.

Oh please! It was a complex problem that involved adults in the family and was better understood by adults. Nuances and context were what she lost patience explaining, NOT that she had explained that particular aspect to me previously. She regretted that later then took time to explain the entire picture.

Feel free to "beat sense" into your children. I only know I'll never do that even to my animals.

Have fun.

yousee: I am totally in support of corporal punishment.
Modified and upgraded to suit the times.
Take away from the child that one thing he/she loves best and rather channel them to other activities.

My punishment those days was "read this book and tell me the story when i return from work"
That was so bad at first, cos i wanted to run the streets and play ball with my neighbours.
Well, long story short, i fell in love with the African Writers Series at a very young age and it really helped shape me.

@the bolded, Does your dad know my dad Its the exact punishment I used to serve apart from regular strokes of the cane sha. It was then extended to my birthdays; no birthday gifts except books which I must summarise. Read almost all the books in series 1 & 2 before I was 12.

Long story short, I can't thank the old man enough for that strict regime. Made me the person I am today. Trying the same thing with my children but 24 hr DSTV go gree??

Corporal punishment has its place of course but we should develop other methods too. Too much cane creates hardened children sometimes.

Chidexter: Without corporal punishment, there'll be a high rate of criminals, wayward children and a wayward society in general.

Wow! This makes absolute sense. No wonder Nigeria has very very low rates of crime, wayward children and societal vices.

MissMeiya:

Absolutely. Nigerians are capable of the most wicked things I've ever seen in my life, and it is because of the cruelty of their upbringing.

No - it has less to do with upbringing, and more to do with the innate wickedness / evil in many Nigerians.

British kids are engaging in "happy slapping" (physically abusing a perfect stranger and recording it on mobile devices - forthe fun of it), American kids are going on shooting rampages. All this, because they have a sense of entitlement, brought about by the absence of adequate (albeit loving) punishment as young children.

jesuslovesme123:

No - it has less to do with upbringing, and more to do with the innate wickedness / evil in many Nigerians.

British kids are engaging in "happy slapping" (physically abusing a perfect stranger and recording it on mobile devices - forthe fun of it), American kids are going on shooting rampages. All this, because they have a sense of entitlement, brought about by the absence of adequate (albeit loving) punishment as young children.

That is ridiculous.
1. Nigerians are not "innately wicked/evil".
2. Children slapping people is incomparable to conscious, bloody cruelty and torture.
3. Do you think if Nigerians had access to guns there wouldn't be massive shootings? Honestly, do you?
4. People who use guns are very removed from the effects of their actions. They could never come up close to their victims and hack them to death with a machete, or burn them to death, or pour acid on them--common occurrences in Nigeria. And even with the physical and mental distance they gain by using guns, they almost always turn the guns on themselves afterwards and commit suicide. How do you consider that "entitlement"? America's gun problem is a matter of ACCESS, where mentally unbalanced people are allowed to own firearms. Not a matter of "spoiled children".

This is a very very common African misconception, this fear of "spoiling" children. Where you can hear someone telling you that holding your child too much is bad, and you should allow them to cry until they stop.