Weah96:

Something is wrong with you, you have this reasoning thing backwards. What is the corollary to this statement of yours? Are you not here to defend 'something' which you claim is my ALL POWERFUL creator? Let's examine the present state of affairs. So far we've been ranting against 'nothing' and it is evident, isn't it? Now if what you believe is true, wouldn't there be some evidence of it after all these rants? Where is this omnipotent designer of the universe? Does all that power keep him from moving or answering ppl? That is an UNIMAGINABLE amount of power for things to look like they do around here. It does look like we're ranting against an imaginary deity.

Hey bro, HE is quite and watching you, and expecting you to repent and come to HIM. there will come a time when HE cannologer wait , then HE will act and you with your intelect, wealth, knowledge. Strenght, and what have you , wunt be able to WITHSTAND HIM , then that moment all your doubts will be cleared .it is called judment day..

Mind you only a superior can judge, so thats why even if our own court of appeal decleared a governor aquited and justify him legally elected after several days of tribunal court wahala, then likewise , know this that there lies a superior sumwere thats going to judge when the time arrives. Wait till judgement day to comfirm, wether HE is being just quite till when HE will judge or HE is being helpless like some say.. I just hope you come to the knowledge of the truth b4 its too late. Shalom bro

Some people sha want God to be answerable to them, and even demand that God shld take away our free will as a proof of His existence. seeking God isn't d same as "demanding he shows up"

adsonstone:
My 'criticism' of the Pope's statement is not because it is untrue, of course, it was true...however, it was capable of misleading Atheists to believing that they'll definitely be saved/make heaven if they do good works.

...and yes, that is the Church's teaching on atheism and other religions.
Usually, the Church teachings are kept in the Church records within the Church (I dunno if it's available online though), but I have an audio message where this is taught extensively...if you care to have it, I can send it to you.

I'd be glad to listen to the audio, how cam you send it. Thanks for the effort.

Jesus said prostitutes and tax collectors are in heaven. This could also be misconstrued by sinners.

Do you see that Papa Franciscum is only following his Master?

I don't see you criticize the Master.

italo:

I'd be glad to listen to the audio, how cam you send it. Thanks for the effort.

Jesus said prostitutes and tax collectors are in heaven. This could also be misconstrued by sinners.

Do you see that Papa Franciscum is only following his Master?

I don't see you criticize the Master.

Why should I?
Jesus taught in parables and clarifies his messages using another parable or other means....just like he did when He made that statement and some may still choose to misunderstand though.

The simple message was that repentant sinners are more likely to make heaven than rebellious believers...which he explained.

....and for the audio message, I can mail it to you.

adsonstone:


Why should I?
Jesus taught in parables and clarifies his messages using another parable or other means....just like he did when He made that statement and some may still choose to misunderstand though.

The simple message was that repentant sinners are more likely to make heaven than rebellious believers...which he explained.

....and for the audio message, I can mail it to you.

You have suddenly shifted the goal post.

First, your reason for criticizing the pope was that his statement could be misconstrued by Atheists. Now that I pointed it out that you were only being biased since even Jesus statement can be misconstrued, you come up with a different reason...'lack of explanation.'

Common! We both know the Pope did or said nothing wrong. You're just too biased and arrogant to admit that your criticism was misplaced.

Else...

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

italo:

You have suddenly shifted the goal post.

First, your reason for criticizing the pope was that his statement could be misconstrued by Atheists. Now that I pointed it out that you were only being biased since even Jesus statement can be misconstrued, you come up with a different reason...'lack of explanation.'

Common! We both know the Pope did or said nothing wrong. You're just too biased and arrogant to admit that your criticism was misplaced.

Else...

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

There's no 'shifting the goal post' there.
That's not a different reason, it is just to buttress the point.

....and I'm not denying that the Pope wasn't wrong.

C'mon, you know how such statement can be taken especially when He wasn't specific on Heaven or elsewhere...and that makes it more ambiguous.

Jesus taught in parables but was specific/had a focal point...you disagree?

Jesus often made 'controversial' statements...but still had a focal point.

adsonstone:


There's no 'shifting the goal post' there.
That's not a different reason, it is just to buttress the point.

....and I'm not denying that the Pope wasn't wrong.

C'mon, you know how such statement can be taken especially when He wasn't specific on Heaven or elsewhere...and that makes it more ambiguous.

Jesus taught in parables but was specific/had a focal point...you disagree?

Jesus often made 'controversial' statements...but still had a focal point.

Jesus had a focal point as the Pope had a focal point. Jesus words can easily be misconstrued just like the Pope's words.

The problem is that you didn't care to know the Pope's focal point...but jumped unto ctiticizing him because he's the Pope...he's Catholic.

Now can you answer these questions on second attempt?

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

italo:

Jesus had a focal point as the Pope had a focal point. Jesus words can easily be misconstrued just like the Pope's words.


Now can you answer these questions on second attempt?

Where did Jesus clarify his statement?

And did you bother to read the Pope's full statement to see if he clarified?

Did the Pope ever mention "heaven" or say anything about it in the statement?

Jesus' preceding Statement.

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered.

Statement in question.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the
kingdom of God ahead of you.

Next, Jesus said;


32 "For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.
And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him...

43 “...therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."


The subsequent statement(s) was to show exactly what Jesus said in the parable-repentant sinners are more likely to make Heaven than rebellious believers, fruitful strangers are preferred to unfruitful
sons.

When you study, pay attention to details.


....and yes, I did read the Pope's speech in full and there was no sort of clarification (within the speech)...though the media and some other Priests tried to explain what He really meant...and that's where the disagreement is. Also, He did not mention Heaven---and that makes the statement more ambiguous. You disagree?

italo:
The problem is that you didn't care to know the Pope's focal point...but jumped unto ctiticizing him because he's the Pope...he's Catholic.

...and now, you have cooked up a reason for me for 'criticizing' the pope.

Congratulations.

adsonstone:


Jesus' preceding Statement.

28 “What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

29 ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

30 “Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

31 “Which of the two did what his father wanted?” “The first,” they answered.

Statement in question.

Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the
kingdom of God ahead of you.

Next, Jesus said;


32 "For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did.
And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him...

43 “...therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."


The subsequent statement(s) was to show exactly what Jesus said in the parable-repentant sinners are more likely to make Heaven than rebellious believers, fruitful strangers are preferred to unfruitful
sons.

When you study, pay attention to details.


....and yes, I did read the Pope's speech in full and there was no sort of clarification (within the speech)...though the media and some other Priests tried to explain what He really meant...and that's where the disagreement is. Also, He did not mention Heaven---and that makes the statement more ambiguous. You disagree?




...and now, you have cooked up a reason for me for 'criticizing' the pope.

Congratulations.

Any statement that doesn't mention heaven is ambiguous?

Do you even know what the pope was talking about?

italo:

Any statement that doesn't mention heaven is ambiguous?

Do you even know what the pope was talking about?

What kinda question is the bold?

The ambiguity of a statement is in relation to the subject of the discourse.

In relation to the issue the Pope was addressing- forgiveness of people that do not believe in God and what sin is to them, without mentioning "heaven" or saying anything about it makes it ambiguous.

Here's the original letter.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/letters/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130911_eugenio-scalfari.html

...and here's an English translation of it.

m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/sezioni/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/?ref=search&mfil=1

Here are reports from Catholic sources and general media considering the statement.

www.catholicvote.org/atheists-can-go-to-heaven-did-pope-francis-say-something-new/

www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

I've pointed out what I meant...and I hope there's nothing else.

adsonstone:

What kinda question is the bold?

The ambiguity of a statement is in relation to the subject of the discourse.

In relation to the issue the Pope was addressing- forgiveness of people that do not believe in God and what sin is to them, without mentioning "heaven" or saying anything about it makes it ambiguous.

Here's the original letter.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/letters/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130911_eugenio-scalfari.html

...and here's an English translation of it.

m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/sezioni/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/?ref=search&mfil=1

Here are reports from Catholic sources and general media considering the statement.

www.catholicvote.org/atheists-can-go-to-heaven-did-pope-francis-say-something-new/

www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

I've pointed out what I meant...and I hope there's nothing else.

bro, why don't u just give it up! do u think dis catholic will stop defending the pope that is just anoda god in catholicism forget dis dude joor, he believes his church gave us d Bible and dat we all shld ff the traditions of the so called "one true church" while ours are fakes!

dejilg: bro, why don't u just give it up! do u think dis catholic will stop defending the pope that is just anoda god in catholicism forget dis dude joor, he believes his church gave us d Bible and dat we all shld ff the traditions of the so called "one true church" while ours are fakes!

Thanks bro.

Sometimes, one just need to comment on issues like this.

dejilg: bro, why don't u just give it up! do u think dis catholic will stop defending the pope that is just anoda god in catholicism forget dis dude joor, he believes his church gave us d Bible and dat we all shld ff the traditions of the so called "one true church" while ours are fakes!

While you believe the Bible fell from the sky into the hands of the gods of men you call men of God of all the millions of shops you call "denominations."

...and you want us to follow those millions of contradictory traditions...

adsonstone:

What kinda question is the bold?

The ambiguity of a statement is in relation to the subject of the discourse.

In relation to the issue the Pope was addressing- forgiveness of people that do not believe in God and what sin is to them, without mentioning "heaven" or saying anything about it makes it ambiguous.

Here's the original letter.

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/letters/2013/documents/papa-francesco_20130911_eugenio-scalfari.html

...and here's an English translation of it.

m.repubblica.it/mobile/r/sezioni/cultura/2013/09/11/news/the_pope_s_letter-66336961/?ref=search&mfil=1

Here are reports from Catholic sources and general media considering the statement.

www.catholicvote.org/atheists-can-go-to-heaven-did-pope-francis-say-something-new/

www.catholic.org/news/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-assures-atheists-you-dont-have-to-believe-in-god-to-go-to-heaven-8810062.html

I've pointed out what I meant...and I hope there's nothing else.

It's obvious you criticized without digesting the Pope's write-up.

See how the links you gave are talking about entirely different topics.

But it's okay. We've both pointed out what we meant.

italo:

While you believe the Bible fell from the sky into the hands of the gods of men you call men of God of all the millions of shops you call "denominations."

...and you want us to follow those millions of contradictory traditions...

yawnz!

qstar:


And the omnipotent God sits on the fence, can't even defend His alleged territory.
Only sends polemics like you to defend his failure all over Nairaland.
Oh! What an omnipotent God we have!

Your statement is based on a great misunderstanding of the person of God. God is not a tyrant and so does not force His will on his creation. He created us out of love and expects us to accept Him out of love. Also, those who seriously search for Him find Him. That is why some see him as real and have a real relationship with Him and others don't. Also, just like the devil can influence some to act in aberrant ways (not saying all that goes wrong is from the devil, though), in that same say God can influence people. So, just as the devil did not come in person to steal in a church or shoot an indecent movie, but used agents, that is how we, who believe in God also serve as agents to carry out His will and resist or extinguish evil. God only directly intervenes in the issues of planet in extreme cases. Yes, he can, and he may do it if He chooses to, but you wouldn't want to see it.

Imagine that you need to go out but it is raining cats and dogs. You pray to God to please stop the rain. He can. But at the same time, not too far from you, some farmers are thanking Him for this same rain cause they've been waiting for it for a while. God, in His infinite knowledge and wisdom, will most likely allow the rain to continue even though you pray very hard because in His love, He sees that the rain is for the greater good. You, and someone near you, may not know that and may think He did not hear your prayer or even that He does not exist. This is a very simplistic example (if I may call it that) but you get the point, right? God sees it all but may not interfere directly for good reasons. Sometimes we may understand why but some other times it is beyond our "head". However, there are tons of "proofs", experiential, that show that He is there, He "sees", He acts when necessary (from His stand point), He cares.

italo:

Stop lying.

In an interview with Lithuanian newspaper Rausva Plunksna, the leader of the Catholic Church explains that since gays are part of God's creation, they deserve the same rights and respect as all human beings.
www.codewit.com/north-america/12887-pope-francis-says-he-supports-gay-marriage

kellybently:


In an interview with Lithuanian newspaper Rausva
Plunksna, the leader of the Catholic Church explains
that since gays are part of God's creation, they
deserve the same rights and respect as all human
beings.

www.codewit.com/north-america/12887-pope-francis-says-he-supports-gay-marriage

And YOU believe you should have more rights than them abi?

Because your sins are different from theirs abi?