eighTHREAD: I'll ignore the first paragraph cos it shows how well you can't hold a meaningful discussion without stylishly insulting your counterpart. 2nd paragraph...futures are foreseen based on present actions. What you do today determines your tomorrow and you my friend are most likely to end up a divorcee or a single mother so long you are eager to throw away the order of submission unless you marry a wussy. 3rd paragraph...the bible which contains the word of God made clear demarcations on how marriage, an institution he formed should be. It is only satanic for some elements to want to topple that saying it's archaic. If you don't believe in submission then don't get married, you can get a sperm donor if you want children. As for the case of equal political, economic and social rights bla...bla...bla...they have been achieved through gender equality, what you are aiming for now is distruption of orderliness and unity. FYI, bosses and husband have something in common- they are heads. You disobey the head in a wrong manner, you get punished in ways soothing.

First, I'm not the one being insulting, "stylishly" or otherwise. You are. So why are you speaking of having a meaningful conversation, after being insulting? Who wants to continue to converse with someone who comes out of the gate speaking to you in an insulting, condescending manner?

Second, after 4 kiddos (3 girls, 1 boy) and a 21-year old marriage, I highly doubt I will end up divorced at this stage.

Third, NO! I don't believe in submission, and neither does my hubby. We don't roll like that. Whomever's decision works for the benefit of the family is the right decision. He detests women who can't think for themselves, doesn't understand why any intelligent, educated woman needs to look to a man for direction, and gets very annoyed by women who act like they can't do things for themselves.

Fourth, current events in Nigeria and worldwide should tell you that equal political, economic and social rights have NOT been been fully achieved through gender equality. Ask yourself why.

Fifth, women are not children to be punished for disobeying. Try 'punishing' some women and they will take you out.

If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.

biafransoul:

You're utterly confused. You don't even know what you want or what you even stand for. Have been laughing at the foolishness being exhibited by you all over the forum. If I may ask, what do you really want?

Hmmm...first time I've ever been accused of not knowing what I want or stand for before.

Oh well, such is life.

Glad I'm a source of amusement for you.

Maybe, if you had asked my intentions in the first place, I may have told you.

Too late.

You'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks for responding though.

Opposition is good - sharpens your wits.

zboyd:

Hmmm...first time I ever been accused of not knowing what I want or stand for before. Oh well, such is life.

Glad I'm a source of amusement for you.

Maybe, if you had asked my intentions in the first place, I may have told you.

Too late.

You'll figure it out eventually.

Thanks for responding though.

Opposition is good - sharpens your wits.

Ok.. if i may ask, what are your intentions

zboyd:

First, I'm not the one being insulting, "stylishly" or otherwise. You are. So why are you speaking of having a meaningful conversation, after being insulting? Who wants to continue to converse with someone who comes out of the gate speaking to you in an insulting, condescending manner?

pls notice I never insulted you, you pulled that stylish stunt which I chose to ignore

zboyd:
Second, after 4 kiddos (3 girls, 1 boy) and a 21-year old marriage, I highly doubt I will end up divorced at this stage.

well, I don't know you in person but if what you typed is true then I'll ask why stir up other women?

zboyd:
Third, NO! I don't believe in submission, and neither does my hubby. We don't roll like that. Whomever's decision works for the benefit of the family is the right decision. He detests women who can't think for themselves, doesn't understand why any intelligent, educated woman needs to look to a man for direction, and gets very annoyed by women who act like they can't do things for themselves.

don't know if you married a wuss or not and if things work for your marriage in that manner...the better for you but why must you want other women who might be satisfied the way they are to start to toe your path especially when the bible made itself clear on submission. Maybe you are not a christian.

zboyd:
Fourth, current events in Nigeria and worldwide should tell you that equal political, economic and social rights have NOT been been fully achieved through gender equality. Ask yourself why.

what has political, economical and social rights got to do with marriage? Marriage is a structure where the man is the head while politics, economics and sociology are structures where any gender can be the head

zboyd:
Fifth, women are not children to be punished for disobeying. Try 'punishing' some women and they will take you out.

so women are above laws?

If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.



[/quote]

pickabeau1:

Ok.. if i may ask, what are your intentions

Lively discourse - keeps me sharp - gives me valuable insights into how other people think - widens my horizons - keeps me open-minded

zboyd:

If you had been following my posts, I stated more than once that I am not a follow-follow type of woman.

I have no need to follow the ideology of some white women unhappy with their lot with white men (Feminism)...because that's where the concept started...with middle-class white women who wanted a life outside of being a housewife and mother and their husbands wouldn't allow them to.

Therefore, I am not a feminist.

I follow ZBoydology - I think for myself.

If you believe "submission encompasses something different and can even accommodate mutual respect"...then why not spread the word because some people are obviously confused.

Btw...your nastiness DIDN'T fly over my head...and is duly noted.

One other thing...why are you getting all heated over a discussion of "submission"?

Very curious.

Anyways...thanks for your response.

yeah, you aren't follow follow... You just by chance happened to have the same ideology with radical feminists. They argue that a woman should not submit to her husband or even bear his name. Do you think it's right to bear a man's name just because you both are married?

Who says identifying with others who share your beliefs makes you 'follow follow' or somewhat inferior to them? Is that how low you esteem yourself?

I know you think for yourself... I've agreed as many times as you have informed me Your opening post which was not original to you, just came on its own, and opened a thread for itself. You did not try to hide behind the words of a 'Reverend' who thinks the Bible is archaic, just as you do. I understand

Do me a favour, always directly answer the question you are asked, instead of meaninglessly beating about the bush. It's not congruent with your intelligence claim. Please note... This favour is not an act of submission, so feel free.

eighTHREAD:
If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.

relax, many tigers online are lambs in reality.

zboyd:

Lively discourse - keeps me sharp - gives me valuable insights into how other people think - widens my horizons - keeps me open-minded

Admirable...
So can you define what you understand by submission

You have not answered that question yet

Zboyd, good to know you have kids. Let's start with these three questions. Tell me...

1) Do you bear your husband's name?

2) Who named your kids?

3) Let's say your family just moved to a new home. Your husband wants one of your kids who is a minor to go to a particular popular school because of the legacy, but you don't like the school at all. You don't want your child there, probably because of the behaviour of some of kids who go there. Your husband insists. Your child doesn't mind any school.

Tell me, would your child go to that school as your husband wants, or would you have your way?

eighTHREAD: pls notice I never insulted you, you pulled that stylish stunt which I chose to ignore

well, I don't know you in person but if what you typed is true then I'll ask why stir up other women?

don't know if you married a wuss or not and if things work for your marriage in that manner...the better for you but why must you want other women who might be satisfied the way they are to start to toe your path especially when the bible made itself clear on submission. Maybe you are not a christian.

what has political, economical and social rights got to do with marriage? Marriage is a structure where the man is the head while politics, economics and sociology are structures where any gender can be the head

so women are above laws?

If you are this way, online, I shudder to think how you are offline.

First, you say you don't know me personally, yet you act like you do.

Second, if men don't want women to think then don't allow them to be educated. Isn't that what's happening in some parts of the world?

Third, I assure you my hubby is no wuss. I detest weak, insecure men.

Fourth, you are doing young, intelligent, educated women a disservice, implying that they can be swayed by words on a message board.

Fifth, political, economical and social rights have everything to do with marriage.

Generally speaking...

The passing of laws (Political Rights), assures women protection from marital abuse (Social Rights), and support for children in cases of abandonment of the father and/or divorce (Economical Rights). If there were true gender equality, then why are women all over the world clamoring for equal rights?

As for women being above the laws, no such luck, as long as some men feel THEY are above the laws and free to make women toe the line by relegating them to a subordinate position.

zboyd:

First, those who deem others' opinions as foolish are not open to any other opinions but their own. You can discuss (argue) with them until the cows come home, and they will still deem your opinions foolish.

Second, as a Southern Baptist, do you actually think I don't know what submission is?

Submission, in the case of women is Male Domination, pure and simple.

How could it not be - seeing where the Bible originated from?

Men rule - women follow - no arguments.

Christian women, over here, are given mixed messages....

...get an education / don't get too educated or no man will want to marry you

...be successful / don't be too successful, because men are intimidated by successful women and you might end up a spinster

...be independent / don't be too independent, because men don't like independent women

...speak up for yourself / don't talk back

...think for yourself / don't challenge a man's opinions

...make your own money / don't make too much money, because men have a problem with wives who make more money than they do

...embrace your se*xuality / don't act like you enjoy intimacy too much, because men will think you're loose

...be active in the church / never aspire to preach, teach or lead, because those are men's roles, and women are not to rule over or teach men

...make your own decisions / husbands must lead, guide and teach their wives...

and so on and so forth.

Men are not magically made into leaders full of wisdom at the drop of a hat.

Wow, you put it so succintly. This is the type of 'submisssion' I am not in support of by the way. I believe married couples should show respect to their spouses. Ample amounts of respect by the way because living in close proximity under the same roof with another person is very trying. The respect should go both ways. That's all.

pickabeau1:

Admirable...
So can you define what you understand by submission

You have not answered that question yet

I've already answered that question in an earlier post, along with giving examples of the mixed messages Christian women receive, growing up in the church.

Anyway...short version...

Submission = Male Domination...as in "Woman you must submit to me, because the Bible said so!"

This was and is the teaching pounded into every woman's head, growing up in the church over here, specifically Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches.

zboyd:

I've already answered that question in an earlier post, along with giving examples of the mixed messages Christian women receive, growing up in the church.

Anyway...short version...

Submission = Male Domination...as in "Woman you must submit to me, because the Bible said so!"

This was and is the teaching pounded into every woman's head, growing up in the church over here, specifically Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches.

Ok.. this is better.. i saw your long post

So this submission you have defined.. do you think it is the biblical definition of submission or one as modified by men;s traditions

Why would i expect a woman to submit to me to commit evil

Submission can not be divorced from its biblical context within marriage
Anything else is domination

zboyd:
I've already answered that question in an earlier post, along with giving examples of the mixed messages Christian women receive, growing up in the church.
Anyway...short version...
Submission = Male Domination...as in "Woman you must submit to me, because the Bible said so!"
This was and is the teaching pounded into every woman's head, growing up in the church over here, specifically Southern Baptist and Pentecostal churches.

And unfortunately this has led many men today to lose respect for women because when you say a group of people are incapable of being in charge of their own lives and should ALWAYS defer to their spouse's decision, you are indirectly saying they are fools that can't reason properly.

Ehya... So some girls think men see them as fools because they are girls.

Self-esteem issues, I'd say.

Oahray: Zboyd, good to know you have kids. Let's start with these three questions. Tell me...

1) Do you bear your husband's name?

2) Who named your kids?

3) Let's say your family just moved to a new home. Your husband wants one of your kids who is a minor to go to a particular popular school because of the legacy, but you don't like the school at all. You don't want your child there, probably because of the behaviour of some of kids who go there. Your husband insists. Your child doesn't mind any school.

Tell me, would your child go to that school as your husband wants, or would you have your way?

Q. 1 - Yes.

Q. 2 - We both did.

Q. 3 - Over here, your child has to attend only those schools in his or her district - popular or poor. It's a tax thing. Your only alternative are private schools, Catholic schools, charter schools or do home schooling. You can risk using a friend's or relative's address ho lives in a region with better schools, but if you get caught, you will have to transfer your child to his or her home school.

Married for 21 years?
That's impressive.
Congratulations

zboyd:

Q. 1 - Yes.

Q. 2 - We both did.

Q. 3 - Over here, your child has to attend only those schools in his or her district - popular or poor. It's a tax thing. Your only alternative are private schools, Catholic schools, charter schools or do home schooling. You can risk using a friend's or relative's address ho lives in a region with better schools, but if you get caught, you will have to transfer your child to his or her home school.

zboyd:

Q. 1 - Yes.

Q. 2 - We both did.

Q. 3 - Over here, your child has to attend only those schools in his or her district - popular or poor. It's a tax thing. Your only alternative are private schools, Catholic schools, charter schools or do home schooling. You can risk using a friend's or relative's address ho lives in a region with better schools, but if you get caught, you will have to transfer your child to his or her home school.

Thanks for 1 and 2. I'd get back to them.

Q. 3 Ok better choices. Let me rephrase. Please answer this is it is, an assumption. Never mind if the circumstances can truly happen. Let's say you both don't like the (public?) school in the district. Good thing you have alternatives. Your husband wants your child (one of them) to go to a Catholic school. You don't want that at all, you prefer a private school. Your husband insists. You insist.

What school would your child eventually go to?

Take anything posted online with a pinch of salt

pickabeau1: Take anything posted online with a pinch of salt

make that two pinches. I could become Dangote's nephew here if I want

Oahray: yeah, you aren't follow follow... You just by chance happened to have the same ideology with radical feminists. They argue that a woman should not submit to her husband or even bear his name. Do you think it's right to bear a man's name just because you both are married?

Who says identifying with others who share your beliefs makes you 'follow follow' or somewhat inferior to them? Is that how low you esteem yourself?

I know you think for yourself... I've agreed as many times as you have informed me Your opening post which was not original to you, just came on its own, and opened a thread for itself. You did not try to hide behind the words of a 'Reverend' who thinks the Bible is archaic, just as you do. I understand

Do me a favour, always directly answer the question you are asked, instead of meaninglessly beating about the bush. It's not congruent with your intelligence claim. Please note... This favour is not an act of submission, so feel free.

Why do you have an issue with my refusal to embrace the concept of submission?

Why should I adopt some white women's ideology, take it in, and run with it?

Am I not allowed, as a woman, to steer my own path?

My hubby and I are in agreement that the concept of submission has no place in our marriage - mutual respect and mutual cooperation works for us.

Other couples think differently - as is their right.

Btw...this condescending, demeaning tone of yours is getting old - and I also dislike your demanding tone of voice too.

I don't take orders.

cococandy: Married for 21 years?
That's impressive.
Congratulations

Yea, and lucky for her she was able to find a man that isn't intimidated by her success or intelligence.
Zboyd take care of your man o! Show him plenty love and affection because men like that are a rare breed.

zboyd:

Why do you have an issue with my refusal to embrace the concept of submission?

Why should I adopt some white women's ideology, take it in, and run with it?

Am I not allowed, as a woman, to steer my own path?

My hubby and I are in agreement that the concept of submission has no place in our marriage - mutual respect and mutual cooperation works for us.

Other couples think differently - as is their right.

Btw...this condescending tone of your is getting old - and I also dislike your demanding tone of voice too.

I don't take orders.

lol. Here I thought I called it a favour, and said it wasn't an act of submission.

Alright, noted.

fellis: Wow, you put it so succintly. This is the type of 'submisssion' I am not in support of by the way. I believe married couples should show respect to their spouses. Ample amounts of respect by the way because living in close proximity under the same roof with another person is very trying. The respect should go both ways. That's all.

Unfortunately, that's how it is over here.

Any Christian woman who dares challenge male authority is accused of having the "Spirit of Jezebel" and is in need of divine intervention. lol

Fortunately, not all churches or men are the same.

They're evolving - slowly but surely.

pickabeau1:

Ok.. this is better.. i saw your long post

So this submission you have defined.. do you think it is the biblical definition of submission or one as modified by men;s traditions

Why would i expect a woman to submit to me to commit evil

Submission can not be divorced from its biblical context within marriage
Anything else is domination

Twisted men twist Scripture, and hide behind Scripture to do their evil deeds, hence the filing of divorce by some wives who no longer subscribe to the concept of submission.

Do you blame them?

Oahray: Thanks for 1 and 2. I'd get back to them.

Q. 3 Ok better choices. Let me rephrase. Please answer this is it is, an assumption. Never mind if the circumstances can truly happen. Let's say you both don't like the (public?) school in the district. Good thing you have alternatives. Your husband wants your child (one of them) to go to a Catholic school. You don't want that at all, you prefer a private school. Your husband insists. You insist.

What school would your child eventually go to?

Over here, Catholic schools are private. You have to pay tuition. Some of the best schools down here.

No arguments from me.

All pikins will go.

fellis:
Yea, and lucky for her she was able to find a man that isn't intimidated by her success or intelligence.
Zboyd take care of your man o! Show him plenty love and affection because men like that are a rare breed.

And he's spoiled rotten too - typical Naija man.

Oh well, I can't talk - I am too - but in a good way.

cococandy: Married for 21 years?
That's impressive.
Congratulations

Thank you!

zboyd:

Over here, Catholic schools are private. You have to pay tuition. Some of the best schools down here.

No arguments from me.

All pikins will go.

1) You changed your name so you can bear your husband's. Ditching your identity for his.
2) You both co-operate in the absence of conflict.
3) When there's opposing wishes, you'd yield to your husband's wish...

Thanks for answering. Now I can see that you truly do not buy the submission idea

I've gotten the point I wanted. Thanks again.

zboyd:
And he's spoiled rotten too - typical Naija man.
Oh well, I can't talk - I am too - but in a good way.

So he's a Naija guy? Unbelievable.
But he wasn't raised in Africa I'm sure.

By the way I am very happy a married woman is the one that started this thread because anytime a woman says something about the importance of mutual respect in marriage the lovers of submission start asking her to not talk or have an opinion because she isn't married.

This OP and her feminist movement. Take it easy o. What you seek for cannot be given to you to the extent you want it in Nigeria.





OP Reminding me of JP clark's Wives Revolt.

Marriage like life is about give and take. What you put into it is what you get out. No magic involve, simple maths.
Dont trust your partner, they dont trust you.
Dont respect your partner, they dont respect you.

Most times the man should take the lead but a WISE woman can do that also.

Most of the folks like the OP are unmarried or divorced folks. It baffles me that a Single or divorced man will want to councel a married man. How? You cannot give what you dont have.