Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland
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| Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:02am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Around the golden age(7th Century) of Islam, persian and arab merchants stopped at China to trade, some of whom settled there and inter-married native Chinese. They are the ancestors of the hui people in China today. The hui are predominantly muslims, sinicized and have fully blended their religion with Chinese culture overtime. Today, the hui live in peace, enjoying full freedom to practice their beliefs like any other Buddhist or Christian Chinese. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:06am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Turkic speaking tribes used to control the Xinjiang region of modern China in the Middle ages. The region fell under the control of the uyghur khanate in the 9th century, the uyghur are central asian muslims and by 1884 the region was invaded and claimed by the Chinese. Twice afterwards, the uyghur broke away and declared independence but the Chinese would later reclaim the region and control it till date. 1 Like |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:07am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Unlike their muslim counterparts(hui), the uyghur have ever lacked a feel or belonging to the Chinese state, consequently they are often distant, marginalised and held in suspicion by the Chinese authorities who regard them as embodiments of extremism, separatism and terrorism. In bid to sinicize the uyghur and forestall any future attempt at separation from them, Chinese authorities imposes strict restrictions on their religious practices; the common and strongest factor bonding members of the tribe. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:08am On Aug 10, 2014 |
NB: Because Hui muslims suffer no govermental restriction on their religious practices, it is more accurate to state that the Chinese authorities are anti-uyghur and suppress uyghurs' religious practices than to declare the authorities as islamophobes hindering the practice of Islam in China. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:10am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Dear Uyghurs Beyond Fired Sentiments In the strongest terms, i condemn the imposition of restrictions on your religious practice by the Chinese authorities. Although i find your interpretation of Islam rather radical, in accordance with the Scriptures, i advocate for full freedom of religious practice for all provided non is hurt in the course. But make no mistake, my condemnation of the Chinese authority is no indication of my sympathy for you. What i have basically done is condemn imposition of restrictions on religious practices in compliance with Quranic principles. Far be it for me to take your side on this one. Here is why.... |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:11am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Isn't it a statement of fact that::: all orthodox muslims generally believes in establishment of sharia state? all non-muslims(dhimmis) under these states cannot build new temples or preach publicly? the testimony of a non-muslim by virtue of his beliefs is worth less than a muslim? that non-muslims under these states must pay periodic tax or face dire consequences? |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:12am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Undoubtedly, "YES" is your response to these questions. There lies the root of your problem; DOUBLE THINKING. I mean, if today the British government stopped the use of speakers in London mosques, you 'll all cry "foul, enemies of Islam, islamophobia", yet at the same time you find it perfectly just that non-muslims in Saudi Arabia aren't even permitted to expand their old temple to accommodate more worshippers. Why? Because Allah has ordained it? 1 Like |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:13am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Now being the disenfranchised, the status quo feels intolerable and islamophobic but a reversal of the roles wouldn't leave the dhimmis in a better state. Infact the state of dhimmis under the sharia state is worse off than your current state under the Chinese authorities. Even though under persecutions of the Church or Crusaders, non-muslims have sought cover in Islamic states through the middle ages, dhimmis have always lived in endurance and as second class citizens in sharia or Islamic states. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:15am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Come to think of it, the Chinese authorities' restrictions on your religious practices are temporary, mutable and negotiable thus your rights can be restored at any point but your Sharia or Islamic state 's restrictions on dhimmis is permanent, immutable and un-negotiable according to your ideology and thus, not even the slightest hope exist for the dhimmis. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:17am On Aug 10, 2014 |
Only the first and only true Islamic state established by the Prophet granted equal rights and liberties to both muslims and non-muslims and that was because secularism was adopted. For instance, Jizyah is never a tax levied on non-muslims in an Islamic state. Jizyah is reparation mandated on aggressors after war attacks and damages on an Islamic state(Quran 9:29). The usurption of this state by proceeding generations of fanatic muslims during the ummayad and abbasid reigns marked by gradual distortion of Islamic values and principles would later produce the mainstream model of an Islamic state: an anti Quranic, islamofascist totalitarian system designed to constrain muslims(especially women), while subjugating non-muslims. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 6:18am On Aug 10, 2014 |
If you are going to fight back the imposition of restrictions on your religious practices by the Chinese authority, then you honestly have to reject sharia totally or atleast those aspects that restricts and limit certain rights and liberties of non-muslims/dhimmis under an Islamic state. Otherwise, you 'll become big time hypocrites. That is a decent word from an ex-orthodox muslim blessed enough to isolate the original message of Islam{THE QUR'AN} from the piles of distortions and fabrications introduced into it via seconadary sources{HADITH, SUNNAH, IJMA, TAFSEER} to this day. I hope and pray you posses the decency and gut to keep this word atleast for your own good. PEACE USERMANE |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by kazlaw2000: 1:24pm On Aug 10, 2014 |
usermane: If you are going to fight back the imposition of restrictions on your religious practices by the Chinese authority, then you honestly have to reject sharia totally or atleast those aspects that restricts and limit certain rights and liberties of non-muslims/dhimmis under an Islamic state. Otherwise, you 'll become big time hypocrites. That is a decent word from an ex-orthodox muslim blessed enough to isolate the original message of Islam{THE QUR'AN} from the piles of distortions and fabrications introduced into it via seconadary sources{HADITH, SUNNAH, IJMA, TAFSEER} to this day. I hope and pray you posses the decency and guy to keep this word atleast for your own good.Are the Uyghurs advocating for Sharia? I thought they are complaining of marginalisation by the Chinese govt. The Chinese govt. is also relentlessly trying to make them a minority in their province by 'importing' the Hans. Sorry but I feel you should have made an independent inquiry into their agitations before judging them. PEACE |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 7:32pm On Aug 10, 2014 |
kazlaw2000:Have you ever met any community of orthodox muslims that do not seek to establish an 'Islamic' state? The uyghur have been vocal in demands for autonomy and implementing Sharia in Xingjiang or even better but covertly, the separation and formation of Eastern Turkestan republic(Sharia state). kazlaw2000: I thought they are complaining of marginalisation by the Chinese govt. The Chinese govt. is also relentlessly trying to make them a minority in their province by 'importing' the Hans.I do not deny the marginalisation of the uyghur or excessive importation of Hans to Xinjiang at the expense of the uyghur. However, those are secondary constraints if you ask the uyghur. At the fore of the cries is the restriction imposed on their religious practices by the Chinese authorities and that is exclusively the bone of contention here. PEACE. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 7:41pm On Aug 10, 2014 |
usermane: If you are going to fight back the imposition of restrictions on your religious practices by the Chinese authority, then you honestly have to reject sharia totally or atleast those aspects that restricts and limit certain rights and liberties of non-muslims/dhimmis under an Islamic state. Otherwise, you 'll become big time hypocrites. That is a decent word from an ex-orthodox muslim blessed enough to isolate the original message of Islam{THE QUR'AN} from the piles of distortions and fabrications introduced into it via seconadary sources{HADITH, SUNNAH, IJMA, TAFSEER} to this day. I hope and pray you posses the decency and guy to keep this word atleast for your own good. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 4:20am On Aug 11, 2014 |
Empiree: You 've got it, what has religion got to do with this? What thing in this sense does the Islamic state need to protect that warrant extorting money from non-muslims else the latter has to be fought? Well, the tax supposedly qualifies the foreigners and citizens full rights but the Jizyah does not. There is no basis for this tax in the Qur'an which the "Islamic state" claims to source its decrees. A deep understanding of the context of Qur'an 9:1-30 and the meaning of the arabic wor "jizyah" rubbishes the teaching that non-muslims are to be charged periodically for residing in the Islamic state. Even if we were to agree that Jizya is a tax meant to earn non-muslims their rights, this can easily be refuted by the fact that dhimmis remain largely disenfranchised and subjugated under Sharia. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 4:25am On Aug 11, 2014 |
Empiree: Tax: An amount of money you must pay the government according to your income. Zakat: Money or gifts from one 's earning given to the poor or needy, prescribed at regular intervals. Jizya: Reparation mandated on war aggressors after their defeat, for the collateral damages they caused. No much correlation. Let me guess, you are driving at defining Jizyah as an alternative of Zakat for non-muslims. Well, zakat isn't tax that is the right of the government. Like Salat, Zakat is left at the hands of the individual to comply or not comply. Government may penalise defaulters when it comes to tax but giving Zakat cannot be enforced by government. No compulsion in religion. Jizya though like a tax can be enforced, but it is not permanent like the latter and has a very different goal from Zakat. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 5:36am On Aug 11, 2014 |
usermane: He he he bro, what took you so long. Went to get education on this?. Well, your definitions are just about right. I dont have much of disagreement. i- Your definition of Tax however, is basic. It goes further than that. I wont elaborate. ii- Zakat, remember there are 2 of them. And like you said it has limited govt functional role in our time. But No Compulsion In Religion?. You got that wrong. Even though it's btw worshiper and Allah it is mandatory. To deny it is tantamount to kufr. It's absolutely tenet of Islam. A muslim have no choice in this regard. I believe there is govt enforcement on zakat but there is no Darul-Islam in the world today. Therefore, limited to individual (to be conscious of God). iii- Jizya, agree. Question, is there any so called muslim countries enforcing jizya on non-muslims in their countries today?. I am not well aware of that. So you need to calm down. Non-muslims may live and earn their livelihood in muslim Darul-Islam provided he (she) is not hostile to the state and abides by public moral law. For example, you know already how muslim women supposed to dress. And if non muslim women living in Darul-Islam wear bikini (n/a/k/e/d) in public, she's deserves punishment. Now dont say "that's unfair this is what am talking about". The fact is no religion or "common sense" tells us to be n/a/k/e/d in public. Listen, there are lots more we dont know. Some know lots more than us. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 5:42am On Aug 11, 2014 |
usermane: I dont think you ever heard of "hidden taxes" in secular world?. They exist. Religion is one of them. Believe it or not. Poll Tax, heard of it? this is paid by non citizens who wish to vote etc (in secular world). They only play it fast. If only you can lower your gaze enough you'll be able to see those taxes i am talking about. I think it's foolish to expect them to translate it as "jizya" since they are secular. I dont want to elaborate on this. See if you can do your research. Makes sense?. But cool down, i wanted to test your definitions of the 3 see if you know what you doing. I also believe that Jizya on non muslims varies from zakat imposed on Muslims in Darul-Islam. I read article on Jizya, Tax and zakat during Ramadan. I see differences. Therefore, it's irrelevant to keep pounding muslims on NL over this. Besides this is a matter of Ulama. I am not qualified neither you are. You may get some info in the link. But honestly, i see no reason for you to keep holding muslims in negative manner. http://themmindset./2013/05/19/difference-between-jizya-and-zakat/ Question: This is personal. Do please answer clearly. Thanks. There are 5 tenets in Islam i- Shahadah (dont answer this. I believe you have faith in this) 2-Salah 3- zakat 4-Ramadan(Sawm) 5-Haj. Do you believe in 2-5?. if you do how exactly do you practice them? |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 9:54am On Aug 11, 2014 |
Empiree: You forgot to add that Sunni creed permit fighting those who refuse to pay zakat. That is is the ijma of most of your clergies. Yes, there is voluntary and there is Obligatory Zakat. But, i maintain there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). Just as the state has no right to compel muslims to perform salat or fast in Ramadan, it has no right to compel any muslim to give Zakat. Whether one gives or not, his reckoning is with God alone. Those areas where the state can interfere in the name of Islam and punish offenders have already been outlined in the Qur'an.
Well, ISIS currently demand Jizyah from non-muslims. Either that or they face persecution. You may not recognise ISIS but ISIS is only keeping with Sunni religious texts. Then again, who cares if today 's Islamic states haven't been extorting Jizya? It remain a fact that Sharia law demand tax from non-muslims and this alone warrant condemnation.
Agreed, as long as face-veil ban in France is accepted. The state has the right to enforce moral codes but there is are limits. Stationing moral police to harrass women for letting out strands of their hair is totally over the limit and anti Quranic.
Hidden taxes? I doubt but won't deny the reality. But am here to point the Quran, not to point secular west as utopia. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 10:58am On Aug 11, 2014 |
Empiree: This is an overstatent. Have i ever implied all muslims are negative? There are moderates, apologists and extremists and i know that. I believe most muslim faults boils from ignorance than ill will. Although this ignorance is the root of all the charges of extremism and backwardness that Islam faces. So, on one hand i wount class all muslims as negative beings but solemnly i stand firm on the position most of the problems with Islam or the muslims is from the muslims themselves especially the orthodox ones. Open another thread please, we can't derail this thread. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 4:23pm On Aug 11, 2014 |
Okay now. Let me be clear here. I am not qualified on this issue. Any opinion expressed here is absolutely mine. I am still reviewing ijma on this. However, let me suggest to you that in Shariah, Jizya talking about in Sura 9 vs 29, i believe that it's only imposed on non-Muslim combatants (hostile enemies) in Islam territory. I don't believe that this Jizya extends to other non-Muslims (average ones). But if Jizya is merely translated to mean "tax" on non-Muslims, it implies that it's a form of tax equivalent to that of the secular West. You should perhaps agree with me that non-Muslims in Darul-islam have to be responsible for some sort of taxation but this tax has nothing to do with keeping their religion. When i was listening to a Sheik on this issue (not exclusively about jizya). He simply said non-Muslims may live in peace and protection in Darul-islam. He made no mentioned of imposing tax to keep faith. There are 3 types of non-Muslims mentioned in the Qur'an (sura 60 ayat 8-10) 1 and 2- Non hostile, non combatants and can be neutral. They can support Islam's cause voluntarily or not etc 3- this is the one waging war on Darul-islam and its territory. Therefore, hadith is most likely talking about this one being imposed jizya on. I have to review types of Jizya. I studied this before but forgot now. But i do know that Jizya has always been literally translated as tax. So in Sura 60 ayat 8-9 talking about different types of non-Muslims that Muslims can be friends with. What sense does it make to impose jizya on them in order to keep their religion?. Makes no sense. And these are the types of non-Muslims in Jerusalem under Islam rule before Zionism arrived. Get the picture? On secularism, even though their tax has nothing to do with religion, may i suggest to you that it's actually. They may not recognize religion (rituals) in the constitution but they actually have "religion" (uncle Sam). If you do not pay uncle Sam, they will pick up your behind and sits it in jail (if you are citizen). If you are lawful Resident, your chance of becoming citizen is limited until you clear your taxes or make arrangement. If you fail to do any of these (i:e the condition of being Resident in the country), they will pick you up and dump you in solitary cell for deportation unless you have good attorney to work things out before time runs out. They dont play with it. You may disagree this is not religion but hey, the way you think of jizya being imposed on non-Muslims to keep their religion, same applies here. Believe it or not. They are secular and it's foolish to think they would actually mention religion in this case. But technically it's. Tax Money: Good or Bad?. In secular West taxes collected by treasury go into building and fixing schools, roads, hospitals, subsidies, funds elderly, disabled, low income earners, police, academics etc. Are these not good stuff?. Don't they have reasons to collect these taxes?. This is what makes country great. So tell me why they shouldn't deport or jail someone for not complying?. This is the same reason in Darul-Islam, I am 100% sure that jizya paid by non Muslims and zakat paid by Muslims in Darul-Islam are used for the above mentions amenities as well. So why would Islamic govt in Darul-Islam (not isis) not be responsible for imposing payment of Jizya (def. above) and zakat?. Do you have any objection here?. The reason this tenet (zakat) of Islam is reduced to individual right is because there is no Islamic Caliphate in the world today. Caliphate enforces this. If it's enforced, the money collected is used for similarities mentioned above including funding widows, orphans etc. Now let me advise you, i don't think it makes any sense whatsoever to keep bullying Muslims on NL. It's not fair. Your extreme prejudice has turned you to something else. You claimed you ex-orthodox whatever that means. And then you made 90 degrees U-turn. Thats just ridiculous. But you can be whatever you want. That's your prerogative. Finally, i think you need to press "reset button" in your head. I am beginning to understand your point. When Baqir told me you aren't Muslim i wasn't too sure base on your activities. And the reason i came to this thread is to further understand you. Now i get to know 80% of you now. It appears that 5 pillars are voluntary to you, isn't?. You really need to go back to madrasa. If you cant understand that. And who are you to "reform" Islam and Muslims?. I get the reason they kinda isolate you now. I failed to be active on this site until late last yr. Maybe I should have knew a lot about you then. I am pleading to you to stop nonsense you keep writing. You can mislead folks. I guess you should open a thread on 5 pillars and express your stand on it. I don't have time to open anything like that.. Open it let's hear your views. You see, Usermane is the man that opens threads and talk to people especially non-Muslims. But Usermane is a different guy when he talks to Empiree. Got my point?. -walaikum Salam 1 Like |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 5:02pm On Aug 11, 2014 |
In addition to Jizya literally tax, when compared to secular Western system, say for instance I live in Darul-islam and you live in secular West. You owe your govt $30,000 in taxes for previous year, You are expected to pay everything in full on or before April 15 of the following year. They know very well that most can not afford to pay it off just like that. So they "work" with you by making payment arrangement for your convenience. $30k may be spread for 12 months period. During this period, your arrears doesn't hold. Interests accrue every month for 12 months depending on interest rate. You may end up paying $35000+plus interest within 12 months. But in Darul-Islam, need I not tell you riba (interest) is simply forbidden. So I pay my 30,000 Durham for 12 months. No interest accrue.  This is Uncle Sam
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| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Unbias: 5:03pm On Aug 12, 2014 |
No comment on other restrictions on dhimmis under sharia rule or the suppressions and persecutions of non-muslims in places dominated by Muslims even if not under sharia? Jizya is just one of them if I'm correct. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 3:00am On Aug 17, 2014 |
Unbias: No comment on other restrictions on dhimmis under sharia rule or the suppressions and persecutions of non-muslims in places dominated by Muslims even if not under sharia? Jizya is just one of them if I'm correct.
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| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 3:01am On Aug 17, 2014 |
@ Usermane, take a look. Close to what i was talking about.... http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/15/dear-mr-president-why-im-leaving-america/?partner=yahootix |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by usermane(m): 7:26am On Aug 18, 2014 |
Empiree: @ Usermane, take a look. Close to what i was talking about.... Peace Empiree, you keep talking about tax. You 've been beating about the bush. Tax has nothing to do with Jizya. If am wrong, you should atleast give the theological base of your interpretation of Jizya from the Quran or Hadith. I "ll be opening a thread on this subject later on and i hope you won't wind up throwing incessant tantrum once again. UPDATE: Jizya & Zakat thread. |
| Re: Pened Response To The Uyghurs'(muslims) Cries by Empiree: 8:05am On Aug 18, 2014 |
usermane: Listen bro, you can bypass my last post. Thats not necessary. My other lengthy post explains Jizya at my best. Maybe you go over it again. You have not voiced your objection to that. So dont worry about my last post. You know exactly what you doing. @bold, you are just being sadistic. You can open any thread you want. The is world wide web freedom to do whatever. You just dont get my point. Keep ranting pal  |
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