Should apostates from Islam be subject to the death penalty?

It's a free world, they should be able to choose whatever they want to do, there is no need for the 'death penalty', it is not by force that a person be part of a religion, whether he or she wants to pick it up, or drop it, it is his or her choice

@HUxley: If he entered Islam deceitfully, with the intention that when he leaves it because of his/her prominence, others will leave it. If he maligns Islam in addition, speaking falsehood about it. Yes.

Look there is something called force majure in contract. No one can help the natural and untended act occurs. No one should be penalize for it. However, when you enter into a contract, with evil intention to destroy the other party, by your action, of failure to conform to what your duties are in the contract, then after a set of steps have been taking to bring to your notice your duty, there should be upon your refusal, a call to the abetrators or legal efforts to address the criminality of your action as the offending party.

Criminal and Civil judgement maybe the way to go. It is the same with the religion of Islam. Allah says that those who disbelief, after belief. And then belief again, and then disbelief again. This verse shows that not the mere leaving of Islam, or apostates of it is a ground for death penalty. It must have those other evil and terrible additional qualities.

If a man renounces his citizenship of a country is not enough for the government to want to kill him. But when he gets involved with undermining her security, in the effort of making it weak against its enemies, then the most liberal society will seek death penalty on his life!

Thing of it, it is better for a person to die, while million lives are preserved, saved as a result. When that person is evil, he should be made a true example of the ending of evil soul!

This is the way moderate human being thing. I know that you are off-the-chart in your thinking. Mr. Monkey, the grand Child of Gorilla! You are not insulted am sure, since this is your belief. I have to, God willing bleed it off of your blood.

then the most liberal society will seek death penalty on his life!

I don't know which planet you live on, but here on Earth that simply isn't true.
Very, very few liberal societies have the death penalty on their statute books for treason. Of those that do, few use it.

A total and utter falsehood used to justify murder.

@Backstage: You are real a backstage. I live in the US and the penalty for treason is death.
Learn good history and stop lying about reality.

The Colonial overlords of any nation will kill off those who embank on treasonious activities.
Go back to history and face reality. Jesus, from the Bible was "killed off," because his
actions, the Jews thought was treasonious. The Roman emperor went along withit realising
that if he does not, it is a recipe of civil agitation in the territory.

Gen. Diya was almost killed by abacha for treason too. In Nigerian law, the same death penalty applies for treason.

Learn good history and stop lying about reality.

And when was the last time that the US sentenced someone to death for treason?
I would also remind you that your statement was that most liberal socities will seek the death penalty. Apart from the US (which I don't consider to be a "liberal" society anyway) give some examples where the death penalty has been applied for acts of treason. In fact, give some examples where it's been applied to acts of treason in the US. I'll even give you 30 years leeway so that you have plenty of room to manouevre.
The fact is, you won't be able to. Those examples exist only in your muddled, brain-washed head.

You talk utter idiocy and trash when you tell some-one to learn about good history when you obviously know nothing about the subject yourself.

LOL@ "Go back in history". Yeah? 2000 years ago to Roman times for your example? Pathetic. Wake up fool, this is 2008AD not the year 30AD.

Justify your bloodlust and yearning for murder all you want with foolishness but there are those of us out here in the real world who see you for what you are. Why not just say "Anyone who leaves Islam should be killed" and leave it at that? Basing your arguments on shallow, illogical idiocy makes you look even more of an extremist fanatic than you already are.

Bastage:

And when was the last time that the US sentenced someone to death for treason?
I would also remind you that your statement was that most liberal socities will seek the death penalty. Apart from the US (which I don't consider to be a "liberal" society anyway) give some examples where the death penalty has been applied for acts of treason. In fact, give some examples where it's been applied to acts of treason in the US. I'll even give you 30 years leeway so that you have plenty of room to manouevre.
The fact is, you won't be able to. Those examples exist only in your muddled, brain-washed head.

You talk utter idiocy and trash when you tell some-one to learn about good history when you obviously know nothing about the subject yourself.

LOL@ "Go back in history". Yeah? 2000 years ago to Roman times for your example? Pathetic. Wake up fool, this is 2008AD not the year 30AD.

Justify your bloodlust and yearning for murder all you want with foolishness but there are those of us out here in the real world who see you for what you are. Why not just say "Anyone who leaves Islam should be killed" and leave it at that? Basing your arguments on shallow, illogical idiocy makes you look even more of an extremist fanatic than you already are.

While I agree with some of your points,  I think there are cases in the US where citizens have been put to death for treason (= spying for the Russians). 

@Bastage: « #6 on: Today at 10:39:29 AM »  

And when was the last time that the US sentenced someone to death for treason?

As recently as during the cold war. It was for minor offence which I consider to be less than treason. Merely for being Communist party leaning. Further, Jonathan Pollack, in the 1990s was sentenced to "Life," for spying for "Israel; the best of America. There is a case of a Chinese Scientist going on now in the West Coast. They are asking for the "death" for passing sensitive, rather national security materials to either China or Russia! At least they will reduce the crime to espionage.

England's punishment of an American for Treason: William Joyce, who was an American tried for treason in England after WWII and hanged.

He did obtain a British passport illegally, but the prosecution successfully charged that, having done so, he owed allegiance to the king of England. He was not executed because he illegally obtained a British passport.


US's punishment of its citizen for Treason: In 1947, Hans Max Haupt was convicted of treason and sentenced to life in prison for aiding his son who was a spy for Germany during World War II. The son, Herbert Hans Haupt, was tried, convicted, and executed by a military tribunal.

I would also remind you that your statement was that most liberal socities will seek the death penalty. Apart from the US (which I don't consider to be a "liberal" society anyway) give some examples where the death penalty has been applied for acts of treason.

Read the above, 2 examples. And from among the muslims in Gitmo, America will struggle to execute at least one from them!

In fact, give some examples where it's been applied to acts of treason in the US. I'll even give you 30 years leeway so that you have plenty of room to manouevre.
The fact is, you won't be able to. Those examples exist only in your muddled, brain-washed head.

And is Treason a crime that people are charged everyday for committing, say like murder? I think the double jeopardy law that applies to murderers is even less in the eye of the state than Treason. OJ Simpson was convicted the other day in Las Vegas whereby the jurors were heard saying that the conviction was a "payback time," for his acquittal of 1995!

If teason was as common as any of the less agregious crimes that people are executed for, do you for once think that there would not be execution after such an offender of crime against the nation is found guilty?

LOL@ "Go back in history". Yeah? 2000 years ago to Roman times for your example? Pathetic. Wake up fool, this is 2008AD not the year 30AD.

I see that you are not talking about the Spanish Inquisitions. Not talking about the "Crusades, even the minor ones in Europe! I see that you are not talking about the Colonial missionary Bible in one hand and a gun in the other terror in Continental Africa and the Americas! I see that you are not talking about the Aborigines in the Australia. Or the Polynasians of the Pacific Islands. Where should I start with you?

Go on goggle video to see "Christian Missionary atrocities," Even the Koreans are getting in on it in the name of "Jesus!"

Justify your bloodlust and yearning for murder all you want with foolishness but there are those of us out here in the real world who see you for what you are. Why not just say "Anyone who leaves Islam should be killed" and leave it at that? Basing your arguments on shallow, illogical idiocy makes you look even more of an extremist fanatic than you already are.

And just because Islam is not eradicating the Laws and Rulings in Qur'an and Hadith make me and people who practice Islam, as closely as it was originally practiced now extreme and fanatical? Wow. I doubt if a person like you can stand up for anything, on your own without being cajoled by others to it. The real world you live in must be a 'make belief.'

In the true "real world," people get angry. They want the good for individual and the community, without compromising the right of one so as to exagerate or unnecessarily trump the right of the other! If you think that you can not "kill" a person just wait when a person who invades your home is trying to kill your "loved one(s)," and is eager to kill you too!

I think you need a reality check. To keep your head fogged up with this kind of dilutional "liberalism" is pure deficiency of "Human Quality!" You must not have any blood flowing in your body.

A nice long post from you there, but totally irrelevant and also deceitful in places. You haven't answered the question I've put to you but merely posted more fanatical, illogical hatred.

Let me just put you straight.
FACT: Nobody has been executed in a "liberal" country for treason for decades. People have been recently murdered for "apostacy".

Do you think that dragging up the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition gives your argument credibility that people should be murdered today for their religious beliefs? Historical wrongs give you justification for an argument that isn't even related? Pathetic.

And from among the muslims in Gitmo, America will struggle to execute at least one from them!

Pure, unadulterated bullshit. America cannot and will not execute a single Gitmo detainee. Even those that have committed blatant acts of treason against their own Western countries have not had the death sentence applied to them. But then I guess planting seeds of hatred based on lies is fair game for people of your outlook.

To keep your head fogged up with this kind of dilutional "liberalism" is pure deficiency of "Human Quality!" You must not have any blood flowing in your body.

"Dilutional liberalism"? How about "Not agreeing that people should be murdered for their beliefs?" If that's dilutional liberalism I'll take it over murder any day.
You say I'm deficient of human qualities but someone who advocates the murder of their fellow man because he does not believe in the same god doesn't just make a person devoid of human qualities - it makes them lower than even the most base life-form on this planet.

Keep preaching your hatred and keep justifying murder, my friend, but don't expect those of us who realise what morality and humanity are to follow your disgusting ethos of extremism and fanatasism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7679212.stm

A woman working for a UK-registered charity has been shot dead near Kabul University in the Afghan capital.

The woman, Gayle Williams, was a UK and South African national. She was killed by two men on a motorbike, witnesses told the BBC.

The Taleban are reported to have said they killed her because she was working for a Christian organisation called Serve Afghanistan.

In August the Taleban killed three foreign women near Kabul.

I guessed she got what was coming to her, huh?



@Huxley. I'm aware of the Rosenkrantzes. But take a look at the date they were executed. Well over 50 years ago and outside of the 30 year time period I speicified. That's half a century ago when the world was a much, much more different place. Such executions are not carried out now and any spies are jailed - not murdered. Even when the Cold War was at it's height (well after the Rosenkrantz case) nobody was executed in the US for spying.

But let's get one thing straight here. See through the smoke-screen that olabowale is trying to throw up to justify murder. There is a huge difference between executing someone for treason and murdering someone because they do not believe in the same god. Even if the US was now executing 50 spies a day, it would not give justification to his argument that apostates should be killed.

Bastage:

A nice long post from you there, but totally irrelevant and also deceitful in places. You haven't answered the question I've put to you but merely posted more fanatical, illogical hatred.

Let me just put you straight.
FACT: Nobody has been executed in a "liberal" country for treason for decades. People have been recently murdered for "apostacy".

Do you think that dragging up the Crusades or the Spanish Inquisition gives your argument credibility that people should be murdered today for their religious beliefs? Historical wrongs give you justification for an argument that isn't even related? Pathetic.



Pure, unadulterated bullshit. America cannot and will not execute a single Gitmo detainee. Even those that have committed blatant acts of treason against their own Western countries have not had the death sentence applied to them. But then I guess planting seeds of hatred based on lies is fair game for people of your outlook.

"Dilutional liberalism"? How about "Not agreeing that people should be murdered for their beliefs?" If that's dilutional liberalism I'll take it over murder any day.
You say I'm deficient of human qualities but someone who advocates the murder of their fellow man because he does not believe in the same god doesn't just make a person devoid of human qualities - it makes them lower than even the most base life-form on this planet.

Keep preaching your hatred and keep justifying murder, my friend, but don't expect those of us who realise what morality and humanity are to follow your disgusting ethos of extremism and fanatasism.

I guessed she got what was coming to her, huh?



@Huxley. I'm aware of the Rosenkrantzes. But take a look at the date they were executed. Well over 50 years ago and outside of the 30 year time period I speicified. That's half a century ago when the world was a much, much more different place. Such executions are not carried out now and any spies are jailed - not murdered. Even when the Cold War was at it's height (well after the Rosenkrantz case) nobody was executed in the US for spying.

But let's get one thing straight here. See through the smoke-screen that olabowale is trying to throw up to justify murder. There is a huge difference between executing someone for treason and murdering someone because they do not believe in the same god. Even if the US was now executing 50 spies a day, it would not give justification to his argument that apostates should be killed.

Agreed, again. Sorry I missed the 30 year timeframe you specified.

Huxley: Please ask "Bastage," if anyone have been convicted for "treason," in the past 30 years and have not be sentenced to be executed? This guy takes the charge of treason to be as its like stealing a love of bread. It isa serious crime and its not everyday a person is charged.

Its a crime that the society as a whole frowns upon, and the harshest of all sentences are metered for it!

Or can the "america jurist" and officer of the courts, Bastage tell us that there death as fitting "punishment" for the crime of treason is no lonegr in the Book, of the US laws?

I called a lawyer just now, in New York, who laughed that a person can assume that America will not give the most severe of punishments, to a person found guilty of Treason, Insurrection, Sedition, etc. He said a person found guilty is finished and its only a matter of time before the dye is cast!

I wonder why Timothy McVeigh of the Morrow Building of Oklahoma City was executed, if it was not for crime against the state! Bastage, I am talking to you man!

The lawyer said that a malicious crime against a religion, is in his own eye like treason against a state! Both if found guilty after a through and extensive trial, deserve death.

I have categorically not said that treason is not on the statute books. Don't put words into my mouth to justify your lame argument.

Please ask "Bastage," if anyone have been convicted for "treason," in the past 30 years and have not be sentenced to be executed?

Plenty have been tried and jailed so your so-called lawyer friend is talking through his rectum. A quick Google will show that he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Its a crime that the society as a whole frowns upon, and the harshest of all sentences are metered for it!

I repeat. Although the death penalty is on the statute books in the US, it is not used and there are plenty of cases where spies have been sentenced to jail instead. In Europe, the last death sentence for treason was removed from the statute books in the UK about a decade ago. Even though it was on the statute books, again, nobody has been executed for treason for decades. Again, plenty have been jailed.

? This guy takes the charge of treason to be as its like stealing a love of bread.

Actually, you have that totally wrong. In fact, I believe that Treason is a crime that deserves punishment. Unlike apostacy which I believe is a "crime" dreamt up by fanatics who's religion and god is founded on such shaky ground, it needs extremist measures to prevent it from falling apart.

But like I said earlier, the crime of treason has nothing whatsoever to do with murdering someone because they don't believe in the same god as you. Keep plugging away at that smoke-screen for all it's worth but from this side it's starting to look like the wind of reason and truth is blowing it away.

By the way. Timothy McVeigh was executed for conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, use of a weapon of mass destruction, destruction by explosives, and eight counts of first-degree murder. Nowhere is there a mention of a "crime against the state". Yet again another one of your crackpot theories blown apart.

@Bastage:

But let's get one thing straight here. See through the smoke-screen that olabowale is trying to throw up to justify murder. There is a huge difference between executing someone for treason and murdering someone because they do not believe in the same god. Even if the US was now executing 50 spies a day, it would not give justification to his argument that apostates should be killed.

First show me a "Christian society" and or "Jewish Society", in the same way you are taking Pakistan, Afghanistan, or any country of your choice that you are calling muslim society. If a person apostates such a religion, he will not remain in that society, for long, without the vigilante justice is metered on him.

Lets take Italy for a good example. Is there a possibility for any nuns or priest to apostate Catholicism and still remain in Vatican city? In Italy, the government does not let anyone be named "FRIDAY!" Will a Sicilian who apostates "Christianity" will be left alone to conduct his live as Business as Usual?


Now to Israel, the clearly Jewish state. If a person left Judaism, can he continue to hold office in the Knesset? Can he still own "Israeli Passport?" Can he continue to live in the old neighborhood, unharassed? I ask these because Musa Cohen in Brooklyn left Israel with his life, only by a thread! I know him. I dont have to read it on the internet. This is a man I know retty well.

Is there a possibility for any nuns or priest to apostate Catholicism and still remain in Vatican city?

Man you are really reaching now.
That's like saying can a Christian hold prayers in a mosque? And that's without even explaining why a Catholic apostate would want to remain in the VSC. Or do you think they'd relish being surrounded by 800 clergymen? In fact, do you even know what the Vatican State City is?
Utterly ridiculous but also (yet again) entirely irrelevant.

You also don't seem to understand the difference between "leaving someone alone to conduct their business" and murdering them.

ask these because Musa Cohen in Brooklyn left Israel with his life, only by a thread!

The thing is (and it's a big thing) he left alive. A lot of apostates in Islam don't even get to do that.




Your arguments are either not relevant or not logical. You're trying to defend murder by saying that "the other side does bad things". But even then you can't show that they murder apostates or do anything nearly as bad.

@Bastage: « #15 on: Today at 05:24:22 PM »

Man you are really reaching now.
That's like saying can a Christian hold prayers in a mosque? And that's without even explaining why a Catholic apostate would want to remain in the VSC. Or do you think they'd relish being surrounded by 800 clergymen? In fact, do you even know what the Vatican State City is?
Utterly ridiculous but also (yet again) entirely irrelevant.

You also don't seem to understand the difference between "leaving someone alone to conduct their business" and murdering them.

Whats wrong in being surrounded by 1000 nuns? I am in an area in Manhattan that we do not have a Mosque in say, 20 to 30 street blocks and 4 to 5 avenues both ways. Sometimes I feel like I am the only Muslim walking in the street. Say weekends, etc. Is that a good reason to "run" out of the neighborhood? So your Vatican explanation is very inappropriate, consiedring that it is your type that will conveniently declare, "its a free world."

Quote
ask these because Musa Cohen in Brooklyn left Israel with his life, only by a thread!

The thing is (and it's a big thing) he left alive. A lot of apostates in Islam don't even get to do that.

You simple don't get it; Musa almost lost his life. He almost crushed his skull with a rock, and he has the scar to show for it. He had to leave Israel right away and he lost his citizenship just at thye same time they discovered that he was a muslim, their arch enemy!

Your arguments are either not relevant or not logical. You're trying to defend murder by saying that "the other side does bad things". But even then you can't show that they murder apostates or do anything nearly as bad.

Please point to a religiusly homogenous community that will allow a "traitor," of their religion to continue to live in their mist, without repacursion? Any religion of your choice. Even the no religious community. Say Atheist society, if it exist. Then a person from it becomes say a Christian. Now will it be possible for this fella to continue to live within the atheist society, without expecting some anger and resentment, a backlash against him? Now imagine if the "green or red" book of this organization contains a clear mandate or manifesto for how the most agregious of all utterance against its existence should be dealt with. Do you then say they should not carry it out, because of changing time, while the crime remains and its consequential effect is just as devastating?


I hope you do think. So just imagine what could be happening in a small town in Nigeria, where everyone agrees that a person has committed a crime worth losing his life for. And the News people are in on it as well. Could they not have killed this evil person, without anybody ever knowing about it? Considering that there is no one willing to inform the "outsider" about the "insiders' communual decision!"

I remember when it finally came to light that the US had many "prisons, detainees" in secret places, or prisons. No one believed it until extensive investigations were conducted by the concerned groups of the world.

The point that I am making which you seem not to be able to grsp is this, it is what the people in power wants you to know will be all that you know. What they decide that you will not know of whats happening in their jurisdiction, until otherwise, will be outside your sphere of knowledge.

olabowale:


Please point to a religiusly homogenous community that will allow a "traitor," of their religion to continue to live in their mist, without repacursion? Any religion of your choice. Even the no religious community.

That is why RELIGION is barbarism writ large.

Yet more burbling.

You do not seem to understand what the Vatican State City actually is. Go read up about it. It is not your local neighbourhood and has no comparison whatsoever. Yet again you hide in irrelevancies for the purpose of your vaccuous argument.

Musa almost lost his life. He almost crushed his skull with a rock

Keyword here is almost. He almost got killed. Not he was killed as many Islamic apostates are. But why are you harping on about this anyway? Do you think I believe that Jewish extremists are any different? They're no different from the likes of you. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are ignorant people in Judaism does not give you justification for advocating murder. Even so, the fact that "Musa Cohen's" experience is unique in Judaism whereas the murder of Islamic apostates is commonplace gives you no credibility yet again.

Please point to a religiusly homogenous community that will allow a "traitor," of their religion to continue to live in their mist, without repacursion?

Sure. Come to Europe. People convert between religions all the time. It's a fact of life here. They're not shunned and we don't stone them to death for it. Of course, you'd love it to be otherwise but it plainly isn't. Religious tolerance is a totally different kettle of fish here.

The point that I am making which you seem not to be able to grsp is this, it is what the people in power wants you to know will be all that you know. What they decide that you will not know of whats happening in their jurisdiction, until otherwise, will be outside your sphere of knowledge.

Clutching at straws. If it's a secret, how would you know about it and be able to make the above statement? Are you privy to some information that the rest of the world doesn't have or are you just saying that there must be a conspiracy because you want to believe in one?
The people in power in liberal societies happen to be the same people that walk the streets. They're not smart enough to keep secrets of the nature you talk about. In liberal societies there is information overflow - it's almost impossible to keep a secret and certainly impossible to keep a secret of the nature that you're so ignorantly theorising.

@Huxley: « #17 on: Yesterday at 10:46:19 PM »

Quote from: olabowale on Yesterday at 08:19:24 PM

Please point to a religiusly homogenous community that will allow a "traitor," of their religion to continue to live in their mist, without repacursion? Any religion of your choice. Even the no religious community.


That is why RELIGION is barbarism writ large.

Huxley, sometimes, I almost liked you. But them you think like this novice, a person in a cocoon, with a narrow view of what life is really is. The no religious community could be the atheist or agnostic or rationalist society. None of these community, their commune will allow a dissident to continue his normal daily life, in their community as if everything is normal. This has nothing to do with religion. It is just a thing that is natural with every human social order, or community.

What the muslims have in common is the very religion that you complain that they defend. I remember after 911 all americans wrap themselves in the flag. So I wonder why you think muslims will do anything less.



@Bastage: « #18 on: Yesterday at 10:49:44 PM »

Yet more burbling.

You do not seem to understand what the Vatican State City actually is. Go read up about it. It is not your local neighbourhood and has no comparison whatsoever. Yet again you hide in irrelevancies for the purpose of your vaccuous argument.

So for its uniqueness, I have used it loudly to support my argument. Please if you dare, use it to support yours. Oh, by the way, they didn't annoit Cardinal Arienze of Nigeria for the Papacy post.




[Quote]
Keyword here is almost. He almost got killed. Not he was killed as many Islamic apostates are. But why are you harping on about this anyway? Do you think I believe that Jewish extremists are any different? They're no different from the likes of you. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there are ignorant people in Judaism does not give you justification for advocating murder. Even so, the fact that "Musa Cohen's" experience is unique in Judaism whereas the murder of Islamic apostates is commonplace gives you no credibility yet again.
[/quote]

Just because I am a realist does not translate to extremism! I will defend my own honor and the honors of others! You don't know the ways of humans. I almost take it, by implication that you are not! Musa's experience is not unique. It is a norm, considering how their "ethnicity is their pride of religion!" And if I did not tell you his tidbit, you would have been ignorant of the fact that it is a reality.




[Quote]
Sure. Come to Europe. People convert between religions all the time. It's a fact of life here. They're not shunned and we don't stone them to death for it. Of course, you'd love it to be otherwise but it plainly isn't. Religious tolerance is a totally different kettle of fish here.
[/quote]

The operative phrase is "religious homogenous community." Where is it in Europe? Irish Catholic "Belfast neighborhood?" Imagine what the vigilante "irish republican army," will do to a person who converted to protestant sect of the same Christian religion, if he continues to live in the neighborhood, being vocal of his convertion! Same goes for the Protestants to Catholics, too.

I remember seeing the intensed passion in which the English people outside London are argueing in opposition to a proposed Mosque to be built, entirely from the funds raised by "muslims," in England. How many muslims got hurt or lost their lives, just being muslims, after 911!





[Quote]
The point that I am making which you seem not to be able to grsp is this, it is what the people in power wants you to know will be all that you know. What they decide that you will not know of whats happening in their jurisdiction, until otherwise, will be outside your sphere of knowledge.

Clutching at straws. If it's a secret, how would you know about it and be able to make the above statement? Are you privy to some information that the rest of the world doesn't have or are you just saying that there must be a conspiracy because you want to believe in one?
[/quote]

Just walk around with your blinder! I think you are far from reality. There are those who are the elites of any society. Then there is a people like you.

The people in power in liberal societies happen to be the same people that walk the streets. They're not smart enough to keep secrets of the nature you talk about. In liberal societies there is information overflow - it's almost impossible to keep a secret and certainly impossible to keep a secret of the nature that you're so ignorantly theorising.

I wish only if you knew how truly ignorant you are with your naivete.

Like one apostate of Islam puts it,Islam is like the proverbial Hotel California
You can check in but can't checkout.

Like an abscess with a fistula, it is a "gift that keeps on giving"

And yet someone will turn around at an opportuned time to quote that famous altaquiyyah "there's no compulsion in religion".
I bet they think their listeners are daft
Tell that to dolly.

For anyone to sit and rationalise why a fellow human should be killed for his choice of religion beats me.
Yet when I categorically say that Islam is evil based on what comes out of their own mouths ,some people would be asking for my neck.
Islam = mind control + manipulation + a whole dose of fear.

Some are stuck because they fear death at the hands of people like Olabowale (based on his own words)
since in some instances it's the fathers that actually kill their own children when they decide to flee from that murderous bunch.
So much for a peaceful religion.
We are not deceived.
There are no moderate muslims.
there are 2 sets.

1.Those who have the balls to do as Mohammed instructed
2. And those who support it privately and sometimes publicly but without the balls to bear a sword but will if "coached" by practising ones.

any wonder the radical ones are the ones that follow Mohammeds teaching to the "T"with scared foreheads to prove their dedication to prayers unto allah.
Lord help us!

plus_Queen:

Like one apostate of Islam puts it,Islam is like the proverbial Hotel California
[b]You can check in but can't checkout.[/b] .

For anyone to sit and rationalise why a fellow human should be killed for his choice of religion beats me.
Yet when I categorically say that Islam is evil based on what comes out of their own mouths ,some people would be asking for my neck.
Islam = mind control + manipulation + a whole dose of fear,
So much for a peaceful religion.
We are not deceived.
There are no moderate muslims.

never deceived my sister. it is always their head for yours. we have overcome them. every evil they plan is always on them and their house. it is a free world. we will not die but live to fulfill the will of the father

olabalwe.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of relevance.

This topic is about murdering people for their beliefs.

It has nothing to do with the Vatican State City.
It has nothing to do with Nigerian Bishops.
It has nothing to do with building mosques.
It has nothing to do with treason.
It ha nothing to do with the IRA (which incidentally was a financial organisation not a religious organisation).

Even if those excuses you used were relevant, they are so poor that they can be shot down in flames within seconds by anyone with half a brain. Some are just outright blatant lies while others are smoke-screens and distortions of the truth.

I find it utterly amazing that you can insult someone and tell them that they are immoral whilst you sit there calling for the death penalty for people who don't believe in the same god as yourself.
If you're the best that your religion has to offer, I have no sympathy whatsoever for you when the extremists from the other side perpetrate any of the so-called atrocities you're whining about.

Reap what you sow, brother.

thank you. say no more. the morons in afghanistan just killed another soul helping the under priviledged and abadoned in their land yesterday. did i hear "moderate" olabs talk about it!!!! that is too much to ask a religious man.

you guys are swimming in an ocean of blood that is crying against you daily

@Plus_Queen: « #20 on: Today at 03:55:33 AM »

Like one apostate of Islam puts it,Islam is like the proverbial Hotel California
You can check in but can't checkout.

Whats the difference between it and the "marriage you are not permitted to end?" I mean there is no provision for it in that religion's holy book. Never mind people do on their own, which may be contrary to the command in this book. Say the Bible?

Like an abscess with a fistula, it is a "gift that keeps on giving"

And yet someone will turn around at an opportuned time to quote that famous altaquiyyah "there's no compulsion in religion".
I bet they think their listeners are daft
Tell that to dolly.

As I have said above, don't mind what the people do, even if it is contrary to thir holy book. That applies to Qur'an here, too. Considering that the verse that you quoted is plain and direct: should there be a compulsion in religion? Should there be another meaning of that verse?

In Qur'an, Surah Al Imran I think has a verse where people are predicted to go back and forth in and out of Islam, until such an indecisiveness should be taken for disbelief, uncommitted to belief. If everyone is killed the first time they left Islam, would have a need for this verse that talks about the back and forth of a person between belief and disbelief?

For anyone to sit and rationalise why a fellow human should be killed for his choice of religion beats me.
Yet when I categorically say that Islam is evil based on what comes out of their own mouths ,some people would be asking for my neck.
Islam = mind control + manipulation + a whole dose of fear.

Where is the mind control? No one can control the mind of anyone. Should I remind you of how high is mind controlling, the concept that cojoled you, a very "intelligent woman, that could drive you to accept 3 completely separate and distinct entities to suddenly become One Indivisible entity! How unreal is that, except that there is the highest form of "mind control" in full trottle up at work?

And I did not hear about asking for your neck. Who did, when and where?

Some are stuck because they fear death at the hands of people like Olabowale (based on his own words)
since in some instances it's the fathers that actually kill their own children when they decide to flee from that murderous bunch.
So much for a peaceful religion.
We are not deceived.
There are no moderate muslims.
there are 2 sets.

You are taking this argument over the top. In my home right now, I have a person who called himself a Christian Prophet! I had to tell him that at best he is a pastor. But he was a muslim home. We discuss religion, and never at anytime did I desuade him from what he practices. I only do what I do and hopefully before he is no more with me, he will see the goodness of Islam, and returns. Many have.

And it is not every person who has a child who is not practicing Islam kills him/her. Give us many examples, if there is any among the Yoruba Muslims. And please don't say the Yorubas "copy" a group of religion people or another ethnic group. The Yorubas have a saying that "we only wake up to see people take the qualities of the yorubas. Yorubas never behave like the children of other persons."

1.Those who have the balls to do as Mohammed instructed
2. And those who support it privately and sometimes publicly but without the balls to bear a sword but will if "coached" by practising ones.

any wonder the radical ones are the ones that follow Mohammeds teaching to the "T"with[b] scared foreheads to prove their dedication to prayers unto allah.[/b]
Lord help us!
The mark of prostration is not something that occurs on people. Its a gift. However you will see the traces of prostration on the faces of those who pray to Allah (correct spelling, unlike how you write it). Its in Surah Fath. I don't know whats eating this woman. She argues about the less important, while she soak up the fraud of 3 in 1.

1.Those who have the balls to do as Mohammed instructed
2. And those who support it privately and sometimes publicly but without the balls to bear a sword but will if "coached" by practising ones.

any wonder the radical ones are the ones that follow Mohammeds teaching to the "T"with scared foreheads to prove their dedication to prayers unto allah.
Lord help us!

The mark of prostration is not something that occurs on people. Its a gift. However you will see the traces of prostration on the faces of those who pray to Allah (correct spelling, unlike how you write it). Its in Surah Fath. I don't know whats eating this woman. She argues about the less important, while she soak up the fraud of 3 in 1.

@JJYOU: « #21 on: Today at 04:15:00 AM »

never deceived my sister. it is always their head for yours. we have overcome them. every evil they plan is always on them and their house. it is a free world. we will not die but live to fulfill the will of the father

This reminded me of the prayer of a Christian which I overheard about 2 months ago. This person was praying against the perceived evil coming from an adversary. But it was not just the seeking of protection tht shocked me. That was normal. BUt the asking for evil to befall that person and his/her household! That was excessive. You see why Islam is a middle course, now?

Look at what you prayed above; on them and their house. How do you avenge one with many when you seek revenge?
And plus_queen, you have never shown us a single apostate. Is this not a gimmick, fraudulently trying to sow a seek of deceit here?




@Bastage:« #22 on: Today at 08:57:13 AM »

olabalwe.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of relevance.

Dont murder my name. Its O l a b o w a l e. Easy.

This topic is about murdering people for their beliefs.

But you fail to see that faith or belief in a society that cherishes it, is exactly the thread that binds them together, in a common cause! And murdering of a person in Islam is a very serious matter. Those who do it casually without the proper vetting will have to answer to the One who hads authority.

It has nothing to do with the Vatican State City.
It has nothing to do with Nigerian Bishops.
It has nothing to do with building mosques.
It has nothing to do with treason.
It ha nothing to do with the IRA (which incidentally was a financial organisation not a religious organisation).

Again you thinking is not as deep, since you do not see that all of these list, when isolated and looked at, individually has a common value to those who take it as important. So when a person, who is filled with deceit commissions himself to destroy it by "lying' about it, with the hope of convincing others, then the people, if they have the "poer," to charge, try and pronounce judgement on him, then there is no harm in it.

As I am responding to you, I remember a story of a companion (RA), who passed the secret of the muslims to the Makkans, before a battle; either Badr or Huud! He was found out, and when question by the prophet (AS) why he did it, his response was that his family and people still in Makka were facing hardship and ill treatment from the hands of the larger Makka community because of him. This way, if he gave up the secret(s) to the Makkans, his family and people may suffer less from their Makkan society, even though they were not even muslims.

Did the prophet (AS) ask for his life? Of course not. The companion's intention was clear, if not noble, but acceptable and well understood, within the reality of human thinking! I guess, bastage, that is not something you can understand!

Even if those excuses you used were relevant, they are so poor that they can be shot down in flames within seconds by anyone with half a brain. Some are just outright blatant lies while others are smoke-screens and distortions of the truth.

Reality, my man, reality. And you tend to isolate issues. If this is the case, there will be no need to use anything relating to any issue to drive home a point of view. Tell me any blatant lie(s), in my presentation. I will be eager to read your findings.

I find it utterly amazing that you can insult someone and tell them that they are immoral whilst you sit there calling for the death penalty for people who don't believe in the same god as yourself.
If you're the best that your religion has to offer, I have no sympathy whatsoever for you when the extremists from the other side perpetrate any of the so-called atrocities you're whining about.

Who was it that I lied (insulted) about morality on? If I say that I say that I jump from the embrace of one woman to another, without any of them being my spouse, if I am accused as sexually lude, because of this, will the "accuser" be insulting me? Think, man. And if I call for the death penalty for people who dont believe in the same God as me, whouldn't that be the death of everyone except the Muslims?

Is this way you think, man? My simply expressing that a person who deceitful entered Islam, and then left it after a while, because that was his intention with the deceit in the firts place. The same person after he left, in deceit and not in truth, began to lie about Islam. Saying things that are incorrect, if such a man is so driven, in his deceit and hoped that he speaks long enough of his lies, until people who are weak begins to leave Islam,I here again repeat myself:

From the order of Allah, in the Qur'an, such a person, if the muslim authority can have the ability to reel him in, for trial, so that he can defend himself. If after a thorough trial, found guilty, the Muslim authority, like any authority of any society, as the do with their offender's in the penalty phase, can if they chose to, impose the "death penalty," on such a person, simply for his sin of deceit and lies, and not for sincerity in leaving Islam. This is reality. Again I know that it is too heavy for you.

Reap what you sow, brother.

I pray that I reap what I sow, that is good. If any is bad, I pray that Allah forgives me of every one of them. And if it against any man or woman, that he/she forgives me.




@JJYOU: « #23 on: Today at 10:46:38 AM »

thank you. say no more. [b]the morons in afghanistan just killed another soul helping the under priviledged and abadoned in their land yesterday. did i hear "moderate" olabs talk about it!!!! that is too much to ask a religious m[/b]an.

you guys are swimming in an ocean of blood that is crying against you daily

I do not know everything. And it is not all that I know that I will share with Nairalanders, anyway. My knowledge is limited, like not knowing the "time of the hour!" Only Allah knows the "time of the hour." I am not everywhere, everytime. That position belongs to Alah the Almighty.

olabowale:

@Plus_Queen: « #20 on: Today at 03:55:33 AM »
Whats the difference between it and the "marriage you are not permitted to end?" I mean there is no provision for it in that religion's holy book. Never mind people do on their own, which may be contrary to the command in this book. Say the Bible?

The Bible says you can divorce based on fornication and adultery,but my dear are you comparing divorce to murdering someone for leaving a religion  

olabowale:


As I have said above, don't mind what the people do, even if it is contrary to thir holy book. That applies to Qur'an here, too. Considering that the verse that you quoted is plain and direct: should there be a compulsion in religion? Should there be another meaning of that verse?

You say there's no compulsion in religion yet you're compelled to kill those who leave the religion?
altaquiyyah.
This one is like a pig wearing lipstick.It can be clearly seen from a mile away.

olabowale:

@Plus_Queen: « #20 on: Today at 03:55:33 AM »
In Qur'an, Surah Al Imran I think has a verse where people are predicted to go back and forth in and out of Islam, until such an indecisiveness should be taken for disbelief, uncommitted to belief. If everyone is killed the first time they left Islam, would have a need for this verse that talks about the back and forth of a person between belief and disbelief?



Where is the mind control? No one can control the mind of anyone. Should I remind you of how high is mind controlling, the concept that cojoled you, a very "intelligent woman, that could drive you to accept 3 completely separate and distinct entities to suddenly become One Indivisible entity! How unreal is that, except that there is the highest form of "mind control" in full trottle up at work?

Even if the individual decides to leave Islam and return a thousand and one times.It is his prerogative,to kill him is murder and[b] thank God the international community is cracking down on those barbaric acts.[/b]
Again this is about Islam murdering it's apostates,not about the concept of trinity,or eating jollof at salah.
It is about people being unable to be free from Islam for whatever reason.
They should be able to make that[b] free choice [/b] without fear of being butchered to death in your hands.

You are taking this argument over the top. In my home right now, I have a person who called himself a Christian Prophet! I had to tell him that at best he is a pastor. But he was a muslim home. We discuss religion, and never at anytime did I desuade him from what he practices. I only do what I do and hopefully before he is no more with me, he will see the goodness of Islam, and returns. Many have.

And it is not every person who has a child who is not practicing Islam kills him/her. Give us many examples, if there is any among the Yoruba Muslims. And please don't say the Yorubas "copy" a group of religion people or another ethnic group. The Yorubas have a saying that "we only wake up to see people take the qualities of the yorubas. Yorubas never behave like the children of other persons."

Remember that you are not Islam.You've told me that line several times so let's use it now.
Need I remind you that the subject is on Islam and killing of apostates so it's a little childish of you to defend the killings under whatever reasons you chose to profer and at the same time single out Yoruba Muslims as non murderous muslims.
Thank God you know examples abound and the individuals did not leave and return then leave again.
so that reason to kill makes sense only to you and your cohorts.
I am esctatic Yoruba Muslims are more peaceful than their counterparts in northern Nigeria and Pakistan.We all know why
We actually pray most of you Muslims are that peaceful.
That is what a religion should teach.
Islam is something else entirely.
Keep defending killing a person for leaving Islam,the more you speak,the more we see the spirit behind that thing you call a religious movement.

JJYOU:

thank you. say no more. the morons in afghanistan just killed another soul helping the under priviledged and abadoned in their land yesterday. did i hear "moderate" olabs talk about it!!!! that is too much to ask a religious man.

you guys are swimming in an ocean of blood that is crying against you daily

Don’t just see in one side of that incident!!! Do you think you have a zero intolerant in Christendom? Even you have that in your mind, the suffering of the Iraqi people and in Afghanistan are just one of the results that your fellows are more nasty in the eyes of the Muslims world. You can’t see the hidden atrocity of the American soldier when they conducted they operation thunder storm. How many people are affected in that war alone? Do you think they just accepted all those things are happening? Their silent are a misery in their faces without any reason to talk/show in the public. Biases are always praying around like you!!!

samba123:

Don’t just see in one side of that incident!!! Do you think you have a zero intolerant in Christendom?

probably not but any christian who kills an "apostate" will find himself behind bars or facing the hangman's noose in decent countries not being hailed as a "hero".

samba123:

Even you have that in your mind, the suffering of the Iraqi people and in Afghanistan are just one of the results that your fellows are more nasty in the eyes of the Muslims world.

Remove the wool over ur eyes pls. We've had enough of hypocrites telling us about the "suffering" some people choose to bring over themselves. Is it the US planting IEDs, suicide bombers, truck bombs and militias? Muslims are killing themselves . . . stop blaming their "suffering" on others pls.

samba123:

You can’t see the hidden atrocity of the American soldier when they conducted they operation thunder storm. How many people are affected in that war alone?

Its operation desert storm. You're just a hypocrite, where you complaining when Iraqis (fellow muslims) invaded Kuwait (fellow muslims)? Were you worried about the "many people affected in that war alone"? Did you realise operation desert storm was to force Iraq out of Kuwait and was not a war against Iraq itself?

Go and read your history books pls.

samba123:

Do you think they just accepted all those things are happening? Their silent are a misery in their faces without any reason to talk/show in the public. Biases are always praying around like you!!!

If they stopped building IEDs, stopped training suicide bombers and chose to spend their time and effort on rebuilding their countries instead of planning days of rage and fatwas . . . there wont be "silent misery" in their faces. Its funny that these same muslims with "silent misery" on their faces are emigrating in huge numbers to the very countries you blame as the source of their "misery". Tell me why Iraqis would rather fly to New York than live in Basra?

Bastage:

olabalwe.

You don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of relevance.

This topic is about murdering people for their beliefs.

It has nothing to do with the Vatican State City.
It has nothing to do with Nigerian Bishops.
It has nothing to do with building mosques.
It has nothing to do with treason.
It ha nothing to do with the IRA (which incidentally was a financial organisation not a religious organisation).

Even if those excuses you used were relevant, they are so poor that they can be shot down in flames within seconds by anyone with half a brain. Some are just outright blatant lies while others are smoke-screens and distortions of the truth.

I find it utterly amazing that you can insult someone and tell them that they are immoral whilst you sit there calling for the death penalty for people who don't believe in the same god as yourself.
If you're the best that your religion has to offer, I have no sympathy whatsoever for you when the extremists from the other side perpetrate any of the so-called atrocities you're whining about.

Reap what you sow, brother.

When the mohammed teddy bear almost caused the life of that British woman who did nothing but try to teach school children,we all watched it play out on the pages of the daily Newspapers and internet.
Men dressed in white flowing gowns trooped out of a mosque after "praying" with machetes and tree limbs in hand asking for the head of this poor teacher.
Thankfully many Muslims here condemned that barbarity.
Most normal human should ask where that mindset came from and the answer lies squarely at the doorsteps of Islam.

Thank you for redirecting us back to the topic
[b]It's about a religion that says to kill people who "insult it", leave it willfully and yet they tell me Islam is peaceful,how is that?[/b]why can't they just let people be
that's all we're asking

Christians are riding these buses just fine . . . in London by the way . . .

Imagine such a bus in Saudi Arabia!