WinsomeX:

Sorry the knowledge of Jesus you possess is wrong knowledge. Get into the know.

Those who taught you the knowledge that God heals everybody learnt very late in their lives that he doesn't.

Oral Roberts died of a failing heart.

Kathryn Kulmhan died from complications following surgery.

Benson Idhahosa died of heart failure.

E W Kenyon died of brain tumour.

Kenneth Hagin died from complication arising from a bad heart.

The list is endless.

So friend get to know because as you have confessed you know little.

nora544:

The Wife of lake died at a time he build healing rooms in south africa
He died also of a strok at the age of 65 so what is with faith and that is the man who could heal ebola when we didnot know what ebols is.

mbaemeka: Hahahahahahaha Kenneth Hagin died from complications arising from a bad heart? Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Just like when someone told me that Paul may have gotten infected from the wounds sustained from some of the beatings he received. Then I had to ask him "if a snake bite (with venom) could not infect him why should a mere wound now infect him?"

These guys are funny and yet they want to have you believe that they believe God's words more than you. Hahahahahaha.

nora544:

The Wife of lake died at a time he build healing rooms in south africa
He died also of a strok at the age of 65 so what is with faith and that is the man who could heal ebola when we didnot know what ebols is.

mbaemeka: Hahahahahahaha Kenneth Hagin died from complications arising from a bad heart? Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Just like when someone told me that Paul may have gotten infected from the wounds sustained from some of the beatings he received. Then I had to ask him "if a snake bite (with venom) could not infect him why should a mere wound now infect him?"

These guys are funny and yet they want to have you believe that they believe God's words more than you. Hahahahahaha.

Yooguyz:
I thought was the only one who noticed that lie, hagin died at 86 cause of death was old age.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_E._Hagin

Gombs:

no mind the joor

E. W. Kenyon own funny pass.. then Idahosa

Yooguyz:

I thought was the only one who noticed that lie, hagin died at 86 cause of death was old age.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_E._Hagin

SirJohn:

@Kenyan,
I have been following your posts and the subsequent responses and I want to advise that you be very very careful. I'm not trying to discourage you in any way but your case is not new at all. When I started this thread, I remember stating that I have been a member of CE and a leader as well; I have seen your kind of situation go bad several times. I remember talking about a dear brother who passed on in december 2008 of HIV, he was in the branch of CE where I left. he went to the healing school and came back 'healed'; some years later in december 2008 he died two weeks to his wedding from HIV complications. Hes is not the only case that has been recorded and believe me if anything should happen to you, they will say you did not sustain you faith; thats been the case with many faith healers around the world.

From your posts, I can see you've put serious effort in ensuring that you remain healthy and alive for as long as you can; and so far most of it has worked for you. My advice: dont trade what you have now for false hope which may seem to work now but will definitely FAIL.

SirJohn:

In as much as I would not want to discourage anybody, the truth must still be told. The reason why faith fake healers get away with their cheap scams is because certain people would rather show an unbeleivably huge amount of loyalty to these rich scam artists rather than be honest with themselves.
A very common trend which I have noticed is that people who patronise faith healers also seek alternative means of getting well sometimes before and during consultation with the faith healers. The sad news however is that when they do get better, they either deny that they have been recieving treatment through orthodox or traditional medicine or they will never tell you the extent they have gone with the alternative treatment.

Kenyan 28, you did mention in one of your posts about Benny Hinn being a true man of God, Ha Ha , I'd rather listen to his protoge (Chris). Well I too was in the same sorry state as you are now until I saw several videos where Benny himself openly owned up to several unbelievable lies he had told just to get his followers loyalty. Several people who like you claimed they were healed where secretly tracked down to their homes and it was startling to find out that these folks were never at all healed; some even died weeks later.

So my dear friend, again I say: 'BE WISE'

SirJohn:

Yes Joagbaje, I was once a WOF practitioner, I am no longer one. Till lately, when I watch TBN, I cant help but laugh when I see these WOF guys do the same things I did over 15 years ago. it still is the same thing it hasnt changed a bit; I can still make those things happen because I know the psychology behind it. For instance, I can induce the 'falling under the power' phenomenon or make people scream as though they are obsessed by a demon. I've demonstrated this several times in several places. No big deal!

SirJohn:

Hi Magdadodo,
its very obvious you havent read through this thread very well otherwise you wouldnt have made the comment in red. Secondly Ma, that something worked for you doesnt make it true; several years ago, I came across a book written by Norman Vincent paele "The Power Of Positive Thinking" it was more of a motivational book, I applied some of the principles in the book and believe me it worked like magic.
I dont need to quote the bible to make my story any more true than it already is.

SirJohn: @ Kenyan 28
In as much as I hate to be a stumbling block to anybody's faith, it is also important that the truth be told. When I started this thread, I gave details of what I saw in the healing school within a period of four weeks and I remember saying as well that I sought explanation from key leaders within the ministry.
I do not blame you at all for your outburst of enthusiasm and passion because you are only an outsider looking in from a distance; everything will definitly look right in your eyes but BEWARE.
nevertheless, I have a few questions for you:

Approximately how many students attended the session you witnessed?
How many of these made it to the healing line?
Where you guys at any time split into two or more groups towards the end of the session?
How many wheelchair cases do you recall to have seen at the healing school?
How many of these were ministered to?

I need your honest answer

whatalife: Sinners in Christ Embassy
•Steal millions of naira in church’s bank
By CHIOMA IGBOKWE
•Miriam and Mabel
• Photo: The Sun Publishing
Living index

Saturday, April 10, 2010
•Miriam and Mabel
• Photo: The Sun Publishing
Living index


The bid by Christ Embassy, one of the popular Pentecostal churches in the country, to help its members inculcate the culture of saving and thrift is now becoming a thing of sorrow, as sinful members of the church have done something that has turned the house of God into a den of thieves.

In a bid to be among those who testify in church over speedy progress, four members of the church engaged in fraudulent activities in the microfinance bank, popularly known as ‘Parralex,’ established in the church’s premises in Lagos. These bad eggs have systematically diverted over N60 million into two dedicated personal accounts and shared it among themselves.

The bubble, however, recently burst for them, as operatives of the Special Fraud Unit, Ikoyi, Lagos swooped on them. They are now cooling their heels in detention, awaiting trial. Among those arrested are Chinelo Ezeagwuna, Essien Mabel Ufonabasi, Keneyinboh Miriam Eneyi, Orie Nwakego Felicia and Bassey Bassey Charles.

On the facts of the case, Commissioner of Police, SFU, Moses Saba, told Saturday Sun that the suspects conspired and opened several accounts with the bank, using fake names. He said that the leader of the group, Chinelo, sold the idea to her colleagues, who joined.

According to the police chief, the fraudulent accounts bore the names, Akinsola Yinka and Akinsola Favour, which were used to divert about N60million. What the fraudsters did was to always debit the bank’s general ledger and transfer same sum of money to the various fraudulent accounts. This evil action started in 2008 and continued until last February when the fraud was uncovered, the CP said.
On how the fraud was detected, CP Moses stated that an external auditor was called in to audit the bank’s account and discovered that money was missing. He said that the suspects were confronted and they confessed to the crime.

When Saturday Sun spoke with the suspects, they showed remorse and revealed why they went into the evil act.

Chinelo on how it started
Chinelo, 21, told Saturday Sun that she wanted to be among those who cued into the prophecy of Pastor Chris Oyakhilome. According to her, the pastor always talked about speedy prosperity propelled by making the use of available opportunities.

She said: “It’s all about prosperity, increase in speed. That is what Pastor Chris taught us in church. That is my own interpretation of what I did. My mind convinced me to toe that path, since I have been seeing all kinds of fraudulent people in the church, and know how they get rich. I thought that if actually they got rich through all these means, I could also get rich doing what I did.”
Chinelo explained that she got the inspiration through the fat accounts of their former Managing Director, Pastor Foluke.

According to her: “Our madam sent Miriam to check her balance, using the ATM machine. She came back and told me that she saw N4million each in two of her accounts. I wondered why my madam, whose salary is N62, 000 a month, should have such an amount in her account. I remembered that she had been telling me to transfer money from accounts. She also collected money from me when I was handling cash in the bulk unit, saying she was doing investment. I now realized what she had been doing with all the money she asked me to withdraw and give her. I never knew what it was all about, but when I checked I got answer. I told Miriam of my plans and she agreed.

“We opened accounts and transferred money into them and thereafter shared it among ourselves. When Mabel discovered what we were doing, I also advised her to join us or die as a pauper, since we were being paid N25,000 a month. She agreed and we continued withdrawing till the fraud was discovered.”

Chinelo, a Guidance and Counselling graduate, revealed that such fraud has been going on undetected because the bank is not well structured. Also, she said that none of the staff had banking experience.
The lady said: “The bank is not well-structured. They do not have any professional running the bank. We run the bank ourselves. Our madam, who is about 32 years, does not have any working experience.

We all started the bank together in November 2008. We were employed through a memo sent to our pastors that they needed hands at the bank. We did not go for any banking training. The madam of the bank does not know anything about banking. We read books to learn about banking.
“I got the job as a volunteer staff of Christ Embassy and my primary assignment was to work in the bank. By that time, we were not even given a licence by CBN to start running the bank. I have confessed and asked God to forgive me and I believe He has. My parents are aware, as they asked me to come and report myself and confess everything that I have done.”

Miriam’s story
Miriam, 24, who claimed to have repented from her sins, pleaded with Pastor Chris to forgive them. “I know that I am an embarrassment to the GO and he will be ashamed of me right now. I am begging God now for forgiveness and I know that I am wrong. Pastor Chris, wherever you are, if you are seeing me, I am sorry, but if we had everything in place in the bank, people wouldn’t have gone this far.”

Miriam, who is a Geography graduate, told Saturday Sun that when she saw the account of her boss she wondered where she got all that money.
She said: “I have been working with the microfinance bank since 2008 and cannot boast of N100, 000. When I checked the balance of my boss, my mind told me to do what to I did. I sold the idea to Chinelo. We opened two accounts and transferred money to them.

“It was the devil and greed that pushed me into this act. My family is not poor at all. I still blame myself; that is why I can come out boldly to confess what I did. I have admitted my wrong and I am suffering from it.”

Mabel’s bombshell
Mabel blamed Pastor Foluke for her involvement in the act. According to her, the former bank manager never treated her well.

She said: “I will blame Pastor Foluke, who never showed me love ever since I was transferred to the bank from the healing school. If she had been nice to me I would have reported to her when I noticed the loophole. Any little thing she would burst out and hit me. Part of the reason I did not tell her was that she was capable of roping me into that problem. I wasn’t part of the deal initially, but when I noticed it and confronted them, I had no choice but to join them, since they got the inspiration from Pastor Foluke

“If they are just discovering this, that means their financial reports had been faulty all along. Sometime CBN and auditors came. I don’t know what they audited if since they did not detect such little irregularities. The most pathetic situation is that I did not use the money for any particular investment. I have been with Christ Embassy for the past nine years. I am sorry because I have a conscience. I want to use this opportunity to tell Pastor Chris that we are sorry. We are his children and he remains our father. He should please find a place in his heart to forgive us.”

Felicia denies involvement
Felicia, the cashier in the bank, denied involvement in the act. She insisted that her boss, Foluke, included her name because she is an Igbo woman.
According to her, “I am not a staff of the bank. We are just there. For three years, there was no training, including for the MD. We are even more educated than her. We were the ones that taught her the job. I am not involved in the fraud. They just accused me because they felt that I am from another tribe. They just want to indict me. It is her sister, Moji, who opened the account and has been posting money for her. Moji admitted that she is the one. How can you open account without the necessary things, like identity card, signature?

“If the Madam Foluke claims that she knows nothing about this, then the report she is sending to CBN is not correct. How can she claim to be making profit of N100million while some of these things are happening in the bank? Any time CBN came, she would carry the cashbook and give Moji to hide. The auditor came and has been asking for the cashbook. She would be changing figures. They always bought new cashbooks for this. I am the one they send to submit the monthly report to CBN.”

Bassey gave the clincher
Bassey, a deacon in the church, got himself into trouble when he decided to heed the advice of a pastor in the church to withdraw money through a fraudulent account. The pastor told him that it was not a big deal, as the bank’s MD was involved.

Bassey said: “In one of the events at Oregun, I met one of my customers, who happened to be a pastor in the church. He saw me greeting Foluke and asked whether I knew her. I told him yes. Pastor Jude told me she was the MD of the bank and did all kinds of dubious business deal with her sister. He said that Foluke used to send the sister to collect money for her. There was a time she withdrew N20million and paid into her account.

“The only regret I have is that I have embarrassed Pastor Chris and the church of Christ. I feel so embarrassed, judging from my position in the church. I pray that the pastor will find a place in his heart to forgive me. Pastor Chris has a message that blesses people. It is just that people they have put in place to manage the church are not the right people. They are fraudsters.”
When contacted, one of the bank’s managers, who identified himself as Emmanuel, told Saturday Sun on phone that he was aware that such an incident happened but did not have the details.
“You need to talk to those in authority. I have heard of the incident, but I do not know the details. Most especially, I am not in the position to talk to the press,” he said.

http://www.sunnewsonline.com/webpages/features/living/2010/apr/10/living-10-04-2010-003.htm

WinsomeX:

Now is that not what we are saying?

The man was old, his heart was failing, he had had a couple of surgeries prior to his death; medical information that are conveniently hidden from his followers who had been sold the dummy of perfect health forever?

SirJohn: @Kenyan 28,
Heres part 2 of my original post (just in case you didnt read it) then tell me what I have said here that is a lie. remember I asked you some questions earlier and you answered them. Is my story any different from your answer? where you not made to fill out and sign an indemnty agreement? where you not divided in groups and each group had names like citadel, royalty, kings class, etc, did each group not have a pastor overseeing them? did you not mention that pastor Austin was your group pastor? did I not mention his name in my post?
If this much of what I narrated is true, then where is the lie? Kindly let me know what part of my post you are uncomfortable with. pls note the bolded statements and compare with your answers.

drmightie: Just a quick one.This is to all the skeptics out there.
Kenyan 28 is not a fake like some folks here may want to believe.She is a real miracle we should all thank God for,at least that is if you are a believer and have enough biblical sense that JESUS still heals today and set people free from their yoke.SHE IS INDEED HIV -VE now after several years of living with it.I spoke to her on the phone recently and we had a lengthy discussion about her health before and after the healing school trip.I find her story to be genuine.passionate n consistent,of course with evidence to show for it.As a medical specialist i can state categorically WITHout any shadow of doubt  that she is indeed healed of her condition.How do u explain all Recurrent opportunistic infections disappearing n other signs n symptoms of immunosuppression n of course HIV virus.LEAVE STORY MY FRIEND IT HAS TO BE GOD !!!!!!.By the way she is currently preparing for her wedding later this year which am already looking 4forward to in kenya.Mind you i do not know her from Adam.I meet her on this forum.Read her story n was touched.If u do not believe her story just do what I did instead of bad-mouthing what u do not understand.Why do not you ask her to send u her phone no thru your email n speak to her yourself n chase up all the phone nos n addresses of the hospital/clinic where she had her post-healing testing.In addition ,ask her send you a copy of her test result n a copy of her wedding  invitation card.

  PLEASE TO ALL FOLKS WHO ARE TRUSTING GOD FOR HEALING ETC if u can not go to the healing school,just keep believing God .Do not give in to any situation that is contrary to wholesomeness.Get bible believing folks around you to pray for you n bible believing elders to lay hands on you in the name of JESUS.PLEASE DO NOT DISCREDIT SOMEONE' TESTIMONY JUST BECAUSE IT SOUNDS IMPOSSIBLE, DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST AND VERIFY IF IT IS TRUE OR NOT.do You know she almost did not attend healing school just bcoz of some things she read here. but thank God she did.I am not against criticisms especially when it is indicated.At LEAST Jesus said we should judged others actions but not a hypocritical criticism( Only GOD judges intentions).But we have to do it with sensitivity so as not to destroy the faith of those who are weak.I do not know pastor Chris nor do i attend CE but pls let us be very careful.it is people' lives we are talking about here.

WinsomeX:

Now is that not what we are saying?

The man was old, his heart was failing, he had had a couple of surgeries prior to his death; medical information that are conveniently hidden from his followers who had been sold the dummy of perfect health forever?

I won't argue that with you any further than this. You people who would still proclaim a Chris Oyakhilome a saint after his own wife has accused him of "inappropriate relationship" with women only recently; will certainly turn a blind eye at your "heroes of faith" who died in ill health years ago.

Old age has never killed anyone. What causes people death are failing body organs which arise from old age. And that is the point we are making: man is fallen. This body is dying daily. If we are in health we should thank God. If we are sick, we should beg God. But to say there is one divine health somewhere that is the exclusive preserve of a people of faith is to preach rank heresy.

The cross of Christ redeemed our souls. That's all. We however trust him concerning bodily and life needs. They are not exclusives rights.

Don't let anyone deceive you.

SirJohn:

@Kenyan28,
inasmuch as brandishing hospital phone numbers here wont do any good, can you please provide details of the doctor(s) who managed your case before you went to the healing school?
although, like Kunleoshob mentioned earlier, it is difficult getting any info at all calling any of the numbers you provided since they're not the doctors' direct line. even if we were to call, no doctor will disclose a patients info to an anonymous caller who doesnt even know the name of the patient in question.

SirJohn:

My $3500 offer is still on but so that we dont enter into any unecessary argument, I have narrowed the cases covered by my offer namely:
the totally blind
totally deaf/dumb
downs syndrome
complete paralysis,
these cases are very easily verifiable without the aid of any medical personel. so I dare challange joagbaje, fyneguy, donnie, hibreality and co to bring up any of these cases as healed after the lagos session. and I will not only release my offer, I will apologize in five national daily's. QED

nuclearboy: ^^^

@Kenyan:

No time, today or tomorrow, rather loads of classwork and work on your table.

SO, you have NO TIME to honor God who you say healed you, by showing "proof" of illness before; and health after!

BUT, you can come in to say "I AM HEALED".

In the meantime, you are likely running from pillar to post and will show up sooner than later, with documents made by "CorelDraw", signed by yourself; scanned and pasted here, purpotedly "proving" healing. Why not produce real proof - your name, address, name of doctor and hospital, name of laboratory(s), dates, etc?

If you don't want to make your life public, then why did you come here with such claims? Did you expect people to keel over and clap for you? Suppose I now tell you I have proof that Jesus will return at the end of this month, won't you ask me for proof? OR ok, I am Chris Oyakilome - I want you to send US$25, 000 to an account I'll give you. Once you log in again, post on this thread to tell me and I'll paste the account details

OR Please recant AND avoid this topic. You are not only sounding and seeming like a liar but also giving the church you claim was the means for your happiness, a bad name. Worst, you are making the name of Christ a mockery!

SirJohn:

Thats exactly what it is, a 'story', anyone can sound believable in a verbal conversation; thats why I refused calling the phone numbers you posted some time ago. The only way and I repeat the only way to verify faith healing claims is by scrutinizing evidence of an existing ailment or condition before during and after the 'healing'.

From my findings, there's always a missing link when you try investigating healing claims, its either the person was misdiagnosed or that the person has been recieving medical attention but never mentioned it or that there was no healing just 'faith talk' to mention but a few.

That is why I decided to put my money where my mouth is; since certain ailments arouse so much dust, lets shift our focus on ailments that wont take so much of our time. Joagbaje, let me have anyone cured of blindness or complete deafness/dumbness, downs syndrome, total paralysis. I will not request for anything other than the persons name and address period! and it ends all this unecessary brouhaha and you get your cheque for N500,000.

SirJohn: Kenyan28,
below is the origin of the question from hubreality. I had asked you a question, putting your post side by side with mine clearly showing the similarity in our account; I demanded that you tell me which part of my story was false and in your usual reaction, you ignored the question. Hubreality came to bail you out and asked me the question, I did not answer at that time because I knew it was a plot to keep you from answering my question and infact they succeeded.
I replied hubreality by saying that he knows me too well not to ask me such a question (we had before that time spoken severally on phone).
I am not a coward like you and most of your allies, I do not run away from questions and since you are so interested:

YES I believe Jesus is Lord

I said on several occasions that this thread does not in any way question Gods ability but the charlatanism of Chris Oyakhilome.
So now can you please answer the trail of questions you have been avoiding?

SirJohn: @ Mabel & Joeagbaje,
the healing school session in lagos has long ended. Mabel I'm waiting for testimonies of outstanding miracles.
Joagbaje, tell us about the folks you sent there, I'm sure they must be healed by now.

Joagbaje: I have a case of a diabetic woman that got healed, I will post the details today.

SirJohn:

I have said this before and I will say it again: Diligence, honesty and hard work are the sure foundations of wealth not tithing, offering, partnership or , any such form of extortion.
But then on the other hand, these forms of giving does make rich yes it only enriches the collectors i.e the likes of Mr Chris and Joagbaje who prey on unsuspecting followers with sugarcoated lies.

InesQor: God still heals today, and that is without doubt. But he does it by His Own Will. Not cos someone blew air at somebody and asked him to "receive"!

The bone of contention here is how you have trivialized the miraculous healing power of God and brought it to a level where people try to buy their way in, and revert Glory to a man. In an attempt to keep up the magic, you manufacture anecdotal evidence and pay fake-backside gangsters to come and lie that they got healed. Its a tower of babel that you build, and soon everything crashes like a pile of cards.

How do I know God heals? I was born dumb. I was dumb till I was 4 years old. My mother, now late, used to wake me up at midnight, take me to her room and pray hotly for one or two hours depending on how passionate she felt. All i could do was hum and make guttural sounds, I dont think I had faith as such in God but I had hopes to talk so I would hum Amen to the prayers even though I slept off many times. Well God did it. My evidence? Besides my excellent pre-school grades on my report sheet at the Sabol school for the deaf and dumb, my vague memories of hand sign language, and my family, ENT medical reports (Ear nose and throat) and family doctors & friends, I have little evidence.

If I got healed of dumbness at an age when I was wiser, I would chase the evidence like a bloodhound, but I was just 4! So all these grown people who cant step to the plate with valid evidence, I wonder what excuse they have. Then many of my friends today would call me talkative.

Speaking of being talkative, I started talking but I was wheezing cos I used to be asthmatic too as a kid. While still dumb, I used to faint many times cos I couldnt even wheeze, couldnt really gasp for air. A dumb asthmatic is a terrible combo. So i started talking but if you introduce Dust, smoke, pollen grains, any tiny particles and Im in trouble. Almost died many times. Bronchial asthma, "asthma" for which medicine has no cure, just maintenance. My mother's prayer was simple, she said to God, You gave (insert my name here) his speech. Heal him on the inside too. Guess what? He did too.

The greatest lesson here is that my mother hardly even knew God. She had a need and she wept to God like no man's business. She knew him eventually, and she's with him now. Lesson: it does not take a man of God for you to get anything from God. All it takes is faith. Heartward, deep faith.

#Okbye

ETA: emphasis in bold text and in red.

InesQor: @Joagbaje: Ok Im back. I was very angry yesterday at your reply so if I replied you, I wont have made a useful post.

The videos mean nothing. The way it should work is the Biblical pattern: there was a man/woman, everybody around them knew their problem. God healed them. Here is what they had. Here's what they have now. Spot the difference. Simple! Someone on TV or even a live show who gets "healed" may as well be an actor or actress. Yes, I believe in documented reports. You know why? If the problem concerned you, you would have gone to places! Several physicians wont produce shady details at the same time. Doctors that have at least completed the housemanship program, know their onions!

Are you familiar with the term "Advanced Fee Fraud"? When you ask someone to sow a seed to guarantee their healing, while simultaneously signing a Caveat Emptor saying they cant sue if it fails, then you have defrauded such a person. Thats social engineering ("Yahoo yahoo runs"! The more subtle "healers" will give myriads of examples about those for whom it worked. Details will be glossed over. The buyer gets comfortable and believes he/she is ready to exercise faith. Then the final phase is the placebo and/or fear factor phase. Either the buyer keeps dying inside, thinking its their faith that is weak but they are actually healed; or else they are scared to say it didnt work cos that would make them look faithless, or that would make the "healer" look fake and they dont want to incur God's wrath. So they live in falsehood. We say, come forward with evidence. They cant. Cos there's none. They are either wallowing in a placebo or else they are scared of what people will say. (I believe Its the same reason some people make a conscious effort to "fall under the annoying-thing" when they should rather have the anointing of God coursing through them). There was nobody Jesus healed who wasnt ready to download every detail. Why? It was real.

Did it ever strike you that some of the diseases Jesus healed then, had no herbal or orthodox medical cure at the time? Some others transcended the physical realms and influenced the patient's health. I think it is folly when God has produced some people today with answers in medicine and one chooses to sit tight and believe it is faithless to use medicine but they can send that money to an MOG. Or, as they have called themselves, a god. For the healing miracles that have medical solutions, there is an alternative path to this pattern. BUT its still by faith! You need faith to take drugs and get well cos it doesnt work for everybody! God sees your faith and does His part of the agreement, whether you chewed leaves with Quinine, took Chloroquin or prayed it out. Its your faith He deals with!

I never said we have no part to play. When I said God heals by His Will, I meant in dealing with us He establishes a platform, a framework. When you agree with God by faith you step onto that platform and BUILD upon it. You wont start extending the platform to make it wider. My analogy there might be a riot, my point is that there are people who God has willed in a certain circumstance to take orthodox medicine. Because in the process, a new cure will be found. If that is part of the plan and this person goes to a church where he believes his seed will fetch him healing, he has missed it and put his trust in a man.

The fundamental question that comes before all of this is: what is the person's relationship with God and how ready are they? Cos when its down to brass tacks, its between that person and God, as long as the person is a free agent who understands the import of the healing. Any MOG cannot tell God what to do if it isnt according to the plan. The person to be healed must align with God. Its like being in a heavily perfumed room for a while. You will definitely leave with the scent strongly infused in your clothing! If you have a personal relationship with God, he will watch out for those details. Thats what a father does. But for those who dont, it is up to you to lead them to God, they start taking steps, even if baby steps, in God & God will do the rest (rather than asking them to exercise faith and make a seed as evidence of their faith. Faith in who or what?). Of what use is a healed sinner to the Kingdom?

aletheia: I looked at the videos. Part of the reason why people are so gullible and taken in by these MOGs is the overwhelming ignorance and the fact that most Nigerians are still one or two generations removed from "pagan" practices and as such our thinking is conditioned by this (bearing in mind) that most of these people only have a superficial knowledge of Christ. This conditions how people think: they approach the MOGs healing claims the same way they would approach their village "medicine man". The situation is further compounded by the fact that there are a lot of quacks and poorly trained doctors posing as doctors in Nigeria.

For example, looking at the second video and listening to the woman: the woman had a condition known as Shingles. In her case her specific diagnosis would be herpes zoster ophthalmicus (varicella zoster is the virus that causes chicken pox---in her case now affecting the ophthalmic nerve). She subsequently went somewhere where a 'woman' rubbed some herbs on the skin lesions. Of course; this further inflammed the skin and worsened her condition. This was the wrong treatment. If she had consulted a qualified medical practitioner, she would have received the proper treatment. In any case: even without drugs the condition will usually regress and goes away leaving behind some scarring (which is what we saw in the video at the end) but treatment will make it go away faster.

Here is likely what happened: Notice that at the onset of the video, she had some substances smeared over the skin lesions (no doubt causing continued skin inflammation). After getting "healed", she would have washed that off and stopped further applications, thereby giving the skin time to recover through its God-given natural healing ability---and hey presto, there's your healing!

Now one whould expect based on what we read in the bible that supernatural divine healing would produce a skin as smooth as Naaman's was after being healed of a skin disease; as pristine as that of lepers, healed by the Master's touch, but we see that the woman's forehead remains scarred (there was an attempt to hide this fact, using a low wig), a finding consistent with natural healing processes.

Its all a scam, and once in a while these sort of videos are released in order to entrap the gullible. These videos are similar to some posted a while back on this same thread here and here concerning a man who purportedly could not walk due to tuberculosis of the spine. A claim not borne out even by the evidence they provided.

siyandaN: i post what I have seen, what I have experienced with CE in South Africa for 5 years! I left CE and Glory Be to God because I do not have to wait for a special service and season with Pastor Chris to witness miracles. I was a Healing School partner and yes I never knew what he HELL happened there, because the world saw people jump up and scream when Chris touched HOWEVER right at the end of the church sick people that could NOT move were lying there crying hoping they also could be touched. I saw a young boy who could not walk crying and stretching his feet forcefully when everyone in wheelchairs jumped for joy and he could not understand why was he still not able to walk, Mind you he was registered at healing but he never made it to the line.

About being told we are "curse" well Malachi 3:8-10 Read 8 ¶ aWill a man brob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In ctithes and offerings. 9 Ye are acursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be bmeat in mine house, and cprove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not dopen you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Now Pastor Ose Oyakhilome read form verse 9, which you cant JUMP. Between me and you I do not live under the LAW and that is why I do not give 10% and there is no man that would tell me otherwise. I give as my heart desire even more that 10% at most times. Verse 10 says so there could be MEAT in my store house, NOT jets, Mercs, Bentleys, Mansions, so dont sell me lies.

Now ask yourself, If by Grace we were saved and we are no longer required to do what was done in the OT, why is it that "Tithing" which was in the OT is so LOVED by these greedy pastors? Lets read Galatians

I know you will come with the we need to preach the gospel LINE, CE line.
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The church in the bible that God was refferring to was meant to feed the poor, the bible puts its well saying "so there could be equality in the church" not what to see today pastors fattening themselves. Look I dont buy this BS of we need to preach the gospel, Do you ask yourself why CE does not go to Somalia, they flew past poor African countries who can really benefit from the GET RICH and Prosperity gospel and landed in the land of HONEY South Africa, England, America, Australia etc etc. Ask yourself why? Dont our brothers in war ridden ANGOLA need this false gospel to escape POVERTY! I personally doubt they will go there bcuzz they wont make much money NOW will they?

The faith that you CE members have should allow you to realise that God does NOT need your money for ANYTHING! God does need anything from you to have His word preached. Are you saying that God is dependable on you so the gospel could be preached? Foolish man! Who do you think you are. Cant you realise that this false gospel of Chris is making you SELF righteous, Arrogant you are nothing, you have nothing compare to the ONE to created Heaven and Earth.

Now, this is also where the catch is, CE pastors tell people to go pray for money so they can preach the gospel. Well, why dont they pray and money maana. If God truly sent these man do you truly believe God would be pouncing on his people to give give give money so His gospel be preached. COME ON! The gospel is for God's children, He can"t base souls on how much people gave, how much the church has to win souls. Imagine if no one gave money, so Chris wont be able to work!! BS.

3[b]:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. "As many as are of the works of the law are under the curse."[/b]Are those who obey the law cursed?
3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. (3:11-12)
"The just shall live by faith."
Is Salvation by faith alone?
Has the ever been a just person?
3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law."
Must Christians obey the Old Testament's laws? "Christ , , being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."
Jesus was cursed by God.
3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I do not need heavens to be opened up to me because of my 10% ALREADY the blessing of Abraham came to me through Christ, Im a heir according to the promise, I do not need no man to pressure me on tithe, I already have this promise.

Believe the lies that they tell you. I thank you God for opening my eyes and see through their lies. What they are doing is not what Paul taught and he did warn of those who would come for a financial gain from the church, and I guess you dont see that.

Ask yourself what have you rejected, are you ears so itchy that you take in everything which is never seen in the word of God!