honeychild:

MATHEW 7:21,22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
- Jesus

Like I said in a previous post on another thread or so. Anyone can quote logos- heck, even Satan did. But when you are asked to prove it I start hearing "It is not for this era or that or even worse, that the Holy Spirit is a force or an influence" like your people I believe, teach. What does Paul have to say about the above?

Colossians 3:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

I wish Paul heard Jesus before he let the Holy Spirit teach him that or maybe Jesus is even being misinterpreted by people who are steep in unbelief. What did Jesus really even say?

Matthew 7:21-24New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Gee, if you believed in Hell you would have understood this. People will be so desperate when they are about to be cast into the lake of fire that they will say all sorts including "Lord I told lies for you, I insulted people for you, I judged people for you, I gossiped about people for you" then they will also say "Lord I even healed people for you, cast out demons, slayed people for you etc." and he will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

I can hear some of you say "false interpretation!" Calm down. Let Jesus speak again so you would learn something today and be humble.

Mark 9:39New King James Version (NKJV)
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

So my dear, the people in Matthew 7 that you made references to never did any of those things that they SAID they did. They will only SAY so to escape the lake of fire and of course they will fail because they never knew Christ and as such never did what they claimed. Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.

mbaemeka:

The man Jesus was appointed heir of all things. He didn't always possess all things for he didn't exist as Jesus. He existed as the word.

Hebrews 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things

When did he become heir of all things? When he died, resurrected and ascended.

3 . . .when He had by Himself[a] purged our[b] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Jesus became better than the angels but the WORD was always better. The WORD was his deity but Jesus was the humanity. Jesus also inherited a more excellent name clearly showing that his name wasn't always so powerful even if it was always Jesus.

Jesus was the son of God because he was born of God but he didn't function as God. He had to learn obedience and become perfect.

Hebrews 5:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)

8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Jesus became the author of eternal salvation. He wasn't always it because he had to obey and suffer first.

In the beginning there was the father, WORD and spirit and they always bear witness to themselves.

1 John 5:7New King James Version (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one

That WORD was with the father while he created the world even though the Holy Spirit was the actual craftsman. The Holy Spirit only responds to the word.

Hebrews 11:3New King James Version (NKJV)
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God

Genesis 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. This God here is Elohim in Hebrew (the 3 witnesses) but the next verse shows who was actually moving and he was the Holy Spirit.

. . . And the Spirit of God was hovering

The Holy Spirit was the actual creator. He is the one that moves from place to place and makes the presence of God real (at the same time) for the Father doesn't move- he is always on his throne. The Holy Spirit was the actual craftsman. Jesus said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the father.

Proverbs 8:28-31New King James Version (NKJV)

28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;

He was the person by the Father's side while he spoke the word. The Holy Spirit created mankind (the latter aspect of this chapter said so). Also look at what Job said.

Job 33:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

So when John said "all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made" he was referring to the WORD but we know that the WORD could only be acted upon by the Holy Spirit. So when the scriptures say Mary conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit it therefore means he was acting on the WORD sent by the father. Now that word that was with, and also God (For you cannot separate a man from his word for example, I cannot say Trustman's word said. . .I have to say Trustman said) was what became flesh and that flesh was Jesus. The flesh was a man 100 percent even though he was actually God because he was born of God.

Now when Jesus lived he lived as a man, he grew, he prayed, he studied, he became wiser, he ate, he slept, he got baptized and he performed miracles all as a man. He died and resurrected but this time became GOD even with a human body. At the resurrection and First ascension he went to present his human blood to God the father in the Holy of Holies in Heaven for the redemption of mankind. Then God, pleased with the sacrifice of the son, as a result invested all the authority of heaven and earth into the name Jesus (Philippians 2) and appointed him heir of all things while he then took his residence in Jesus bodily (Colossians 2:9). Then Jesus returned to earth and met with his disciples and taught them some of this before commissioning them to now GO in his name: the name (not names) of the father, son and Holy Spirit. To heal the sick, baptize, preach, save etc. with the presence of the Holy Spirit who will then live in them and as such act on the word that they give because they will give those words in the name of Jesus- which the Holy Spirit answers to (John 14:26).

It is with this deep knowledge about the name, the presence of the Holy Spirit and faith in the name of Jesus that Peter and John were able to heal the man at the beautiful gate and not because of any "special era or time that they had to latch on" like some have said. Peter said "we don't have silver and gold to give to you but we HAVE the name of Jesus. They saw the name as an instrument or something to use and they had faith in the name. Not my words they were Peter's:

Acts 3:12-16New King James Version (NKJV)
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
16 And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

It wasn't the Holiness of Peter and John nor was it their own power that healed the man. It was the name of Jesus- through faith in the name that healed the man. Has the name been done away with? NEVER! Can demonic fellows or non-Christians use the name? NO SIR. The name belongs to the body of christ, that's why I am sad when God's children deny miracles wrought in the name of Jesus or claim it was done by satanic powers. That is a lie and can never be and even satan knows this.

I rest my case. Sorry for the long post.

Attending to other issues has delayed my response which I really wanted to give before now. 

To bring issues into focus I will concentrate on key things pertaining to where we started from. 

Was the man Jesus the God-man or was he just like any one of us? I believe this is the core issue. Looked at from another perspective the question could be asked in another way - did the man Jesus become God only after the resurrection? 

What brings things into clarity is what I have brought out earlier - the Hypostatic union - God and true humanity IN ONE PERSON. 

When you said 'He died and resurrected but this time became GOD with a human body' I believe this summarizes your position. 

The implication of this your position then is that if he was a MERE man and as it were 'developed' himself (growing in knowledge, increasing in faith, etc) to the point of performing the miracles he did then ANY ONE of us who can do the same (develop himself) can equally perform the same miracles. I believe that is why you made such statements as: 
"Jesus could do no single miracle till he received the Holy Spirit at age 30. Until then any attributes of divinity like his prodigious wisdom at age 12 were purely coincidental."
and
"Jesus functioned 100 percent as a man. He did so to show that what he could do, other men could... ...."

•••BTW, could Jesus have had a 'private' ministry before his public ministry? Why did Mary request Jesus to turn water into wine? Could it be that she had a prior knowledge that he could do it? •••

Yes, just as the humanity of Christ needed to grow physically from birth through childhood to adulthood he also needed to grow in knowledge of scripture such that, like Luke 2: 40 says, he grew in wisdom. However at the start of his public ministry at age 30 he was FULLY MATURED in EVERY RESPECT and DID NOT HAVE TO GROW IN FAITH or any other thing from that point. When he led by Spirit into his initial temptations the Spirit must be sure that he was prepared for them. 

A look at a small portion of scripture will show that the deity and humanity of Jesus coexisted in that ONE PERSON - Jesus Christ from birth going forward. 

Lets look at John chapter 1. Here we find that the true light who was the life that was the light of men, and made all things, and was the Word came into the world and that Word was God. He came into the world and specifically to his own but neither did the world recognize him nor did his own receive him. 

The Word BECAME flesh and made his dwelling among us. The Word that is God dwelt among us. 

Of him John (the Baptist) declares: "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because HE WAS BEFORE ME'."
This is a declaration of the preexistence of the man they were seeing physically on the roads of Israel. 

V. 18 states that "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, HE HAS MADE HIM KNOWN. "
Here again we see a declaration that the one who made God the Father known to mankind - Jesus Christ - is the only God or as another translation puts it - God the one and only which talks essentially about the 'uniquely born one' who is the man Jesus. 

When John was asked if he was the Christ he said he wasn't but went on to tell the enquirers "but among you stands one you do not know" v. 26

Going further we have this: 
"29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' v. 29-30
Note again he was referring to a man that he was seeing face to face as being 'before me'. 

Tying it to the preceding verses you can see that John understood the man Jesus he was physically seeing to be the Word even BEFORE the ascension. 

Jesus was the God-man. So he could speak as God or as man. He was God before the incarnation. He was the God-man at the incarnation and continues to be the God-man for eternity howbeit with a GLORIFIED humanity. 

He did not shut off his divinity. Neither was his divinity somewhere separate from the humanity of the man Jesus. It was the union of deity and true humanity in one person. Where necessary he exhibited his divinity. 

Consequently Jesus' ministry was unique. No other person could have or can be the kind of man Jesus was. Therefore his miracles too were unique; remember he had to use them (miracles) as 'sign' of his being the Messiah. So ANYONE who uses the name of Jesus for miracles can only use a DELEGATED AUTHORITY. Such a one cannot claim to be in the same class as Jesus.

mbaemeka:
Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.

Listen to yourself
Examples abound of persons in the new testament who were once part of the brethren but departed to teach heresies. In fact, that was a major challenge in the Church that Paul, Peter, John wrote about such men in their letters
Secondly, John said that by mere confession of Jesus as Lord somebody is identified as a believer, that was circumstantial because the persecution at that time was that serious that no joker will confess Jesus as Lord in the public without risking the hangmen of the Jews and the Romans.

My friend, today, charlatans wear big chains and carry big bibles, Confess the name Jesus, say God bless you bro at slightest provocation and at the same temple have occultic items/practices. So wake up to the times we are in.

As for Holy Spirit speaking to you, that is between you and Him. But, I am sure that He never told you that mas.tu.r.ba.tion. is not ungodly

trustman:

Attending to other issues has delayed my response which I really wanted to give before now. 

To bring issues into focus I will concentrate on key things pertaining to where we started from. 

Was the man Jesus the God-man or was he just like any one of us? I believe this is the core issue. Looked at from another perspective the question could be asked in another way - did the man Jesus become God only after the resurrection? 

The man Jesus was legally God but vitally man. The reality of his deity was only consummated at his resurrection prior to which he was only functioning as a man.

What brings things into clarity is what I have brought out earlier - the Hypostatic union - God and true humanity IN ONE PERSON.

When you said 'He died and resurrected but this time became GOD with a human body' I believe this summarizes your position.

Yes they where contained in one person Jesus but the God aspect was dormant if I may. The only aspect that he functioned in was the humanity.

The implication of this your position then is that if he was a MERE man and as it were 'developed' himself (growing in knowledge, increasing in faith, etc) to the point of performing the miracles he did then ANY ONE of us who can do the same (develop himself) can equally perform the same miracles. I believe that is why you made such statements as:
"Jesus could do no single miracle till he received the Holy Spirit at age 30. Until then any attributes of divinity like his prodigious wisdom at age 12 were purely coincidental."
and
"Jesus functioned 100 percent as a man. He did so to show that what he could do, other men could... ...."

That's my position but you need to include possessing the Holy Spirit, for it would be of no effect without him.

•••BTW, could Jesus have had a 'private' ministry before his public ministry? Why did Mary request Jesus to turn water into wine? Could it be that she had a prior knowledge that he could do it? •••

He had no private ministry. You have to remember 3 things: that he was baptized by John (in the presence of many) who said he saw the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus after which he fasted for 40 days and was tempted by the devil before that wedding at Cana. When Jesus returned from his temptation the bible states that he returned full of the Spirit and ministered to by Angels. So it was after all this that Mary started getting the inkling that his ministry was about start- That's the first aspect. The second is that Jesus said "Mum, mine hour is not yet come". The final aspect is that his first 2 disciples at the time (Andrew and Peter) used to be disciples of John the Baptist until he directed them to Jesus after the baptism.

Yes, just as the humanity of Christ needed to grow physically from birth through childhood to adulthood he also needed to grow in knowledge of scripture such that, like Luke 2: 40 says, he grew in wisdom. However at the start of his public ministry at age 30 he was FULLY MATURED in EVERY RESPECT and DID NOT HAVE TO GROW IN FAITH or any other thing from that point. When he led by Spirit into his initial temptations the Spirit must be sure that he was prepared for them.

The only reason he was tempted by the devil is because he had received the Holy Spirit for that was the only thing needed to begin his ministry. Yes, Jesus was fully mature but had largely untested faith- and trying or testing or applying faith is what causes faith to grow after receiving the word of God of course. It is like exercising one's muscles. Even if you eat food the muscles will grow big but what causes them to toughen up and be able to do much work is exercise. Remember another scripture says Jesus learnt patience by the things he suffered.


James 1:3-4King James Version (KJV)
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

And Paul by the Holy Spirit said faith could grow.

2 Thessalonians 1:3King James Version (KJV)
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly

So the Man Jesus had to act on his faith and display greater miracles by the Holy Spirit for example he turned water to wine, he calmed the storms and he then walked on water. That's progression. Just like raising Lazarus was, to him even raising "himself". Lazarus sisters had faith that Jesus could heal their brother while he was sick (He had healed sick folks before), they even had no doubt that he could have raised him if he had just died or had died for hours (he had done so before). But the Jews believed after the 3rd day of burying a body that the spirit of the person was long gone so when Jesus came on the 4th day they had given up all hope (But you see Jesus applied his faith again) and this angered the Pharisees this time around because they couldn't explain away this miracle like they "may" have done to the instance of Jairus' daughter or the widow of Nain's son.

A look at a small portion of scripture will show that the deity and humanity of Jesus coexisted in that ONE PERSON - Jesus Christ from birth going forward.

Lets look at John chapter 1. Here we find that the true light who was the life that was the light of men, and made all things, and was the Word came into the world and that Word was God. He came into the world and specifically to his own but neither did the world recognize him nor did his own receive him.

The Word BECAME flesh and made his dwelling among us. The Word that is God dwelt among us.

Of him John (the Baptist) declares: "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because HE WAS BEFORE ME'."
This is a declaration of the preexistence of the man they were seeing physically on the roads of Israel.

The word was at the beginning, Jesus was not. Jesus was the word made flesh. So yes, John was right in saying that the Messiah was before him but he wasn't saying this and looking at Jesus. He was teaching/replying his disciples about the Messiah (because they asked him if he was the Messiah) based on the revelations that God had given to him namely: that the Messiah will be younger than him but of course was at the beginning of time and the Spirit of God will descend on him. So when he saw Jesus coming towards him for baptism he could tell that Jesus was the one.

So again, Jesus is God but he was a man on earth.

V. 18 states that "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, HE HAS MADE HIM KNOWN. "
Here again we see a declaration that the one who made God the Father known to mankind - Jesus Christ - is the only God or as another translation puts it - God the one and only which talks essentially about the 'uniquely born one' who is the man Jesus.

The word like I told you was in the bosom of the father. The word was manifested on earth in flesh as Jesus. That's what this verse means.

When John was asked if he was the Christ he said he wasn't but went on to tell the enquirers "but among you stands one you do not know" v. 26

Going further we have this:
"29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.' v. 29-30
Note again he was referring to a man that he was seeing face to face as being 'before me'.

The Christ had to be a man and not a God in reality for if he was God in reality, he couldn't have been crucified. Again Jesus "is" God but he had to function as a man- he depleted himself of all his deity (in terms of the power). He used the one's that men had to do all he did. That's why he said even a little grain of faith could move a mountain.

Tying it to the preceding verses you can see that John understood the man Jesus he was physically seeing to be the Word even BEFORE the ascension

Nope, John the baptist saw him as the man Jesus who was the anointed or sent- the Christos. The person who is describing Jesus as the WORD is John the beloved after Jesus has died, resurrected and ascended. The revelation came to John after all this and he was the one apostle who tried to prove that Jesus was the savior because he was the word made flesh that's why he kept calling him the WORD. (Recall that this book was written well after the ascension to prove the deity of Jesus)

Jesus was the God-man. So he could speak as God or as man. He was God before the incarnation. He was the God-man at the incarnation and continues to be the God-man for eternity howbeit with a GLORIFIED humanity.

I agree with the emboldened but like I have said and continue to maintain from scriptures he ONLY FUNCTIONED as man even though he spoke like God at many occasions.

He did not shut off his divinity. Neither was his divinity somewhere separate from the humanity of the man Jesus. It was the union of deity and true humanity in one person. Where necessary he exhibited his divinity.

I disagree. He shut off the USE of his divinity. Paul said so by the Holy Spirit.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself,

This was the mentality of Jesus- he was God and he knew it BUT he humbled himself and made himself (of no reputation/privileges/rights/dignity) in the LIKENESS (signifying functionality) of men.

Consequently Jesus' ministry was unique. No other person could have or can be the kind of man Jesus was. Therefore his miracles too were unique; remember he had to use them (miracles) as 'sign' of his being the Messiah. So ANYONE who uses the name of Jesus for miracles can only use a DELEGATED AUTHORITY. Such a one cannot claim to be in the same class as Jesus.

Nobody is contending Jesus' deity with him- he is unique in that regard. But what he achieved by the Holy Spirit during his ministry on earth (not his death) is not beyond us and he told us exactly that. He said we would be able to do what he did and even greater. Peter also said we are part-takers/participators of the divine nature. Besides, he gave us Exousia- delegated authority, to use the Dunamis that the Holy Spirit deposits in us after we have received him.

Topgainer:
Listen to yourself
Examples abound of persons in the new testament who were once part of the brethren but departed to teach heresies. In fact, that was a major challenge in the Church that Paul, Peter, John wrote about such men in their letters

I didn't say someone who was once christian can't end up speaking evil of Jesus after. I said for someone who has tasted that power from on high- it is virtually impossible, and if they ever do they will be so far gone they will never be able to repent again. And they won't be many of them!!

4 For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,
6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance

Secondly, John said that by mere confession of Jesus as Lord somebody is identified as a believer, that was circumstantial because the persecution at that time was that serious that no joker will confess Jesus as Lord in the public without risking the hangmen of the Jews and the Romans.

It wasn't a mere confession he was referring to. The name has to be confessed after one has believed with all their hearts that he is Lord and Christ and was raised from the dead. If someone merely blurts out the name without believing it in his heart such a one is not saved.

As for Holy Spirit speaking to you, that is between you and Him. But, I am sure that He never told you that mas.tu.r.ba.tion. is not ungodly

I can't be bold enough to call sin what God didn't call a sin. If someone has evil thoughts and as a result mas.turba.tes is it the mas.tur.ba.tion that was the sin or the "Lust"? I ask this because men whose wives use IVF have to mas.tur.bate to provide the sem-en. Are they also sinning while at it? What does the word of God say? That's what shapes my conviction.

An Ex-Pentecostal Healer(pastor) Explains The Tricks Used to make people think they are healed

The Tactics Of Fake Pentecostal Faith Healers: This is an interview on Way of The master Radio with Todd Friel interviewing an ex faith healer, Mark Haville, who, after reading the Bible, realized the unbiblical nature of it. He explains the tricks used to make people think they are healed and how they make people fall over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCohlCPSLlo

honeychild:

MATHEW 7:21,22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
- Jesus

One minute the name of Jesus is causing demons to tremble and bow, the next minute those same demons are shouting the name and healing people. Hahaha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlNTALOChRc

these fakers are everywhere, once your eyes opens, it's easy to sport then. Video above seems to be pastor chris learnt all his tricks, down to the T. chai!!!

mbaemeka:

The man Jesus was legally God but vitally man. The reality of his deity was only consummated at his resurrection prior to which he was only functioning as a man.

Yes, Jesus was fully mature but had largely untested faith- and trying or testing or applying faith is what causes faith to grow after receiving the word of God of course. It is like exercising one's muscles. Even if you eat food the muscles will grow big but what causes them to toughen up and be able to do much work is exercise. Remember another scripture says Jesus learnt patience

So the Man Jesus had to act on his faith and display greater miracles by the Holy Spirit

Again Jesus "is" God but he had to function as a man- he depleted himself of all his deity (in terms of the power). He used the one's that men had to do all he did. That's why he said even a little grain of faith could move a

I disagree. He shut off the USE of his deity

Like I pointed before now I want to keep our discussion in focus, otherwise we would have to be treating so many issues. 

It may be difficult to persuade you that Jesus did not shut off his deity while here on earth short of quoting him directly say so. Nevertheless look at these: 
"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." John 3:13
"He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all." John 3: 31. 

John 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 
In all these we see that the man Jesus is above all mere mortals.

 In his humanity Jesus' deity was still fulfilling Col. 1: 17 and Col. 2: 9
Undiminished deity and true humanity were inseparably united in one person. 

When in John 3: 34 we read "For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure." it is clear that the impartation of the Holy Spirit to Jesus was complete. His power to perform miracles was at the FULLEST from day ONE. He did not need to 'exercise' his faith to cause it to grow and enable him perform miracles from one small degree to a greater degree as his faith grew. By the time he started his ministry he had all that was necessary to perform ANY kind of miracle. 

Collectively as his church we can do greater than he did, like for example reaching more people with the gospel than he did. As individuals ? That's another story. Recognize that to start with he had no old sin nature so the ministry of the Holy Spirit in his life and ministry was like in no other life. 
This fact alone, in this preceding sentence, means that no man today can function like Jesus did. That is why he is the only one in all the universe who qualified to be 'the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'. 

His major focus was to fulfill the plan for mankind's salvation. Healings were therefore a secondary part of his ministry. They were added to show or prove that he was who he said he was. So then, Healings should not be given the prominence over the salvation message as HEALING SCHOOLS have become. 

mbaemeka:
I can't be bold enough to call sin what God didn't call a sin. If someone has evil thoughts and as a result mas.turba.tes is it the mas.tur.ba.tion that was the sin or the "Lust"? I ask this because men whose wives use IVF have to mas.tur.bate to provide the sem-en. Are they also sinning while at it? What does the word of God say? That's what shapes my conviction.

.

mbaemeka:
I can't be bold enough to call sin what God didn't call a sin. If someone has evil thoughts and as a result mas.turba.tes is it the mas.tur.ba.tion that was the sin or the "Lust"? I ask this because men whose wives use IVF have to mas.tur.bate to provide the sem-en. Are they also sinning while at it? What does the word of God say? That's what shapes my conviction.

What are you trying to say by "what God didn't call a sin"? Your god may not see anything ungodly in it, as it sees everything godly in ta.tt.oos, divorce, bleaching skin and the rest.
You are looking for a straight place in the Bible that condemns mas.tur.ba.tion.
That something is practiced in healthcare setting doesn't make it right and godly even among different religious divides. There are two other methods for taking samples for seminal analysis and most married men will opt for any of them rather than your favorite mas.turb.atn
STOP DECEIVING PEOPLE ALL IN YOUR BID TO PROTECT YOUR CAMP

mbaemeka:

Like I said in a previous post on another thread or so. Anyone can quote logos- heck, even Satan did. But when you are asked to prove it I start hearing "It is not for this era or that or even worse, that the Holy Spirit is a force or an influence" like your people I believe, teach. What does Paul have to say about the above?

Colossians 3:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

I wish Paul heard Jesus before he let the Holy Spirit teach him that or maybe Jesus is even being misinterpreted by people who are steep in unbelief. What did Jesus really even say?

Matthew 7:21-24New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Gee, if you believed in Hell you would have understood this. People will be so desperate when they are about to be cast into the lake of fire that they will say all sorts including "Lord I told lies for you, I insulted people for you, I judged people for you, I gossiped about people for you" then they will also say "Lord I even healed people for you, cast out demons, slayed people for you etc." and he will say I NEVER KNEW YOU.

I can hear some of you say "false interpretation!" Calm down. Let Jesus speak again so you would learn something today and be humble.

Mark 9:39New King James Version (NKJV)
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

So my dear, the people in Matthew 7 that you made references to never did any of those things that they SAID they did. They will only SAY so to escape the lake of fire and of course they will fail because they never knew Christ and as such never did what they claimed. Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.

I had said I was done with you on this thread but I must of necessity respond to this post of yours lest we allow damnable heresies flourish any further. I promise you I will not reply your response to this post as my submission here would be adequate enough to take care of the above post and whatever response you may provide even for this post.

What you will have us believe from what you have written above are the following:

1. The logos is not sufficient to address biblical truths, we must have a rhema.

2. The people in Matthew 7:21ff where either lying or Jesus was the one lying about the miracles they did. They only claimed to "SAY" they did miracles. They didn't do them rather they made the statements in desperation to evade hell.

3. If we juxtapose Mark 9:29 along with Matthew 7:21ff, we must arrive at the conclusion that anyone who works miracles in Christ name must not be false.

1. The matter of Logos and Rhema: Bible teachers have come to the conclusion that the unhealthy distinction that Word of Faithers place on logos or rhema is non existent in the new testament. What we have been made to understand prior to now is that the logos is just the ordinary written word of God, while the rhema is the revelation behind the written word. Logos was powerless; rhema produced result. This WOF teaching is false. Bible teachers have discovered that rhema and logos are two words used as synonyms to translate "WORD" in Greek. My point is that both of these words are used interchangeably in Greek text without any preference or order. Example in English I could use are "near" or "close" are synonyms. Many times are used interchangeably so as not to bore readers with tautology. My point therefore is that there is no distinction BTW logos and rhema. God's words as logos as it is can produce all the rhema we will need for life and godliness. We do not need special revelations to add to them. The root of many WOF heresies is found in this unhealthy distinction BTW logos and rhema. BC then a man can choose to teach new and false doctrine claiming its a rhema. Check this link for further discuss on logos/rhema distinction: www.williamdicks..com/2006/02/rhema-vs-logos.html?m=1

2. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What was Jesus saying here? Was Jesus implying that the people were lying? Or was our Lord lying at them? Surely Jesus won't lie and so we are left with the other option. So these people were making up excuses and lying in the face of hell? Haba ... Mallam... You for take am for easy small small... kai *hausa accent* Nothing can be further from the truth.

The trust of the passage was that some people, despite their religious persuasion and even their obvious working of miracles, will still end up in hell. Why? Two reasons: they were disobedient people and thus worked iniquity; they did not know the Lord and our Lord did not know them. They were religious people who knew all of church but the Master of the church did not know them.

Christ introduced the matter of their prophesying, miracle working and demon casting to show that even when these people were doing spectacular things, they were still not saved. It proves my thesis that miracle working does not justify relation with Christ; knowledge of sound doctrine that results in holy living is what does.

These people were not lying, neither where they speaking in desperation; they truly did these things and ended up in hell.

3. Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part. 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Again context should come to play here. Was Jesus saying that anyone who works miracles must be true. Then what happens to all the passages in scripture that warns against false prophets and their miracles For example

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 9 must be understood in the light of all scriptures. The lesson was that "the one not against Christ must not be forbidden to work miracles". The question that begs an answer is: these fake miracle workers, are they for Christ or for their bellies. The answer is obvious.

I want to end this discuss with one point and that is the doctrine of OSAS. That doctrine is the only thing you and I agree on in this forum but BC of folks like you, I have had to re-learn that doctrine. I still believe in OSAS but only in the light of the Perseverance of the Saints. I am saying the one whose salvation is secure is the one who CONTINUES to the end. If he backslides, God alone will determine his fate.

I said that to put the record straight on a false notion of grace folks like you propagate saying, it doesn't matter how people live, as long as they are saved or as long they work miracles, they are Gods people. Its a lie. Only one thing marks out God's people: holiness, a hatred for iniquity and a commitment to follow to the end. Anything short of these are doctrines of demons.

BTW, the media is rife about the evil that TB Joshua is perpetrating in the land. He has blood on his hands. If you want to know who Jesus was speaking of in Matthew 7:21ff, start to look from the Synagogue church in Ikotun, Lagos: www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2014/09/21/blood-on-their-hands1.

Matthew 7:21ff means what it says. Regardless of what you believe, OSAS or whatever; regardless of miracles; regardless of name and position, if your life is not producing Christian fruits; if you are not obeying Christ; if you are justifying uncleanness, in the name of mustarba-tion and you are not ridding yourself of your iniquity, you do not know Christ and Christ does not know you. Your destination is hell!

Topgainer:
What are you trying to say by "what God didn't call a sin"? Your god may not see anything ungodly in it, as it sees everything godly in ta.tt.oos, divorce, bleaching skin and the rest.
You are looking for a straight place in the Bible that condemns mas.tur.ba.tion.
That something is practiced in healthcare setting doesn't make it right and godly even among different religious divides. There are two other methods for taking samples for seminal analysis and most married men will opt for any of them rather than your favorite mas.turb.atn
STOP DECEIVING PEOPLE ALL IN YOUR BID TO PROTECT YOUR CAMP

I like your brand of Christianity. Anything that doesn't feel good to you is sin and anything that feels good to you is the work of God. I only admire you from a distance but I don't envy you neither do I want to be like you for I am guided only by the word.

It is your people that once called women wearing trousers sinners or not covering the hair was an abomination to God. It is your people that call weavons and hair attachments as evil weapons of the devil and many other fleshly teachings that you have accepted as the word of God. Just ride on and leave those of us who see the word of God as the only true guide.

I asked you a question and you evaded it and called me a deceiver. You are funny. If you and I claim we are both christians yet you feel I am in the wrong what should be the point of reference to iron things out save the word? Can you see why you are indeed the dangerous person?

Let me ask you again for the second time. Can you please give me the scriptures that enable you to say that I am wrong? I am waiting for them.

Just to even correct some of the lies that are being passed around the mastur-bation issue was raised during a Q and A by an email and Pastor Chris' response was "according to the bible, mastur-bation in itself is not a sin".

Now let me give you another instance, a man is suspected to have Ebola and part of the tests required is to check out his Se-men for the virus and He has to provide a sample for the lab scientists. Does he sin while providing it for them? What does the bible say?

trustman:

Like I pointed before now I want to keep our discussion in focus, otherwise we would have to be treating so many issues. 

It may be difficult to persuade you that Jesus did not shut off his deity while here on earth short of quoting him directly say so. Nevertheless look at these: 
"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." John 3:13
"He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all." John 3: 31. 

I beseech you to study any verse(s) thoroughly before showing them to me as I may understand them better than you do. It is not a statement of pride. I am merely stating another fact. For example, In the Book of John 3 that you referenced in your post I want you to observe the verse 13 well.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

You missed out on the emboldened. At the time that John retold the story Jesus, the son of Man was in heaven for he had ascended. He descended as the word of God from Heaven that was made flesh. That's one aspect. Secondly the phrase "come from above" or "born from above" as used in verse 31 was the same word Jesus used in verse 3 to mean born again. The word is gennethe anothen. Jesus was saying one who is born again is above all and talks as one who is from above while those who are of the earth (sinners) talk in a worldly way. In other words, one who is born again talks faith while sinners talk "facts" We can cross-reference this aspect with what Paul said when he said he went to Heaven and heard words that are not lawful to be said on earth. And we know bad words are never and can never be said in Heaven so we can tell what Paul meant. I can give you an example: On earth when someone (Christian) dies they say "he is dead" but People of God say "he is asleep". The people on earth will say how can you say someone that is dead is sleeping? (Like the disciples said to Jesus concerning Lazarus before they had received the Holy Spirit) but much later we can see Paul use that term alot when referring to Christians. I have many other examples.

John 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
In all these we see that the man Jesus is above all mere mortals.

Jesus as God is above all mortals yes. Jesus the man was a mortal (someone subject to death, which he was!). Besides, the verse didn't end there listen to what he said subsequently.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

We (who are born again) are not of the world the way Jesus was not of the world.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Again he repeats it.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

as God sent him so also he is sending us- the same way and with the same power- by the Holy Spirit!

Incase you wanted to claim it was for only the then disciples:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

We have received the same glory that Jesus had. It is that simple.

In his humanity Jesus' deity was still fulfilling Col. 1: 17 and Col. 2: 9
Undiminished deity and true humanity were inseparably united in one person.

False. These verses refer to him now- after the resurrection. Look at the verses before and after verse 17 of Colossians 1.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

He is the firstborn from the dead same thing Paul (by the Holy Spirit) had already said in verse 15. Also look at Colossians 2 verse 10

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

When did he become the head of all principality and power? After his death and resurrection. Even the whole of chapter 2 teaches exactly so. Paul was describing how we got saved and righteous and all happened during his death and resurrection. Period.

When in John 3: 34 we read "For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure." it is clear that the impartation of the Holy Spirit to Jesus was complete. His power to perform miracles was at the FULLEST from day ONE. He did not need to 'exercise' his faith to cause it to grow and enable him perform miracles from one small degree to a greater degree as his faith grew. By the time he started his ministry he had all that was necessary to perform ANY kind of miracle.

LOL, All the men of God and prophets before Jesus had the Holy Spirit come upon them when need was necessary and then leave after. Jesus was the only one to have received the Spirit without him departing and returning. After Jesus died and resurrected (and ascended) he gave us the Holy Spirit too without measure. That's why it is possible for us to be born again. So the fact that Jesus had the Spirit permanently says nothing about the miracles. The miracles are performed by the Holy Spirit as you yield to Him and trust him to do what he said he would do concerning more complex situations than before- that is faith!. Jesus said so.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

The Holy Spirit will show Jesus greater works than healing a man who was impotent in his legs so that you people will marvel- you people that criticize and persecute me. In Chapter 11 for example, we saw a greater miracle- the raising of Lazarus! So even if one has the Holy Spirit like we do today it takes faith to trust him to do what he said when we ask in his name- Jesus.

Collectively as his church we can do greater than he did, like for example reaching more people with the gospel than he did. As individuals ? That's another story.

He said greater miracles than what he did- not greater evangelism or preaching and he referred to individuals. He said he is doing the work he sees his father do and God does not preach! The word is ergon and was used many times in scriptures to refer to the acts/deeds that Jesus did e.g healing the sick, casting out devils, raising the dead etc. Anyone can preach over the radio or have a large following without having the Holy Spirit. The works Jesus was referring to needed the aid of the Holy Spirit- the same one that helped him during his ministry to perform all the acts. That is why we are better of trying to do what Jesus did before bothering about achieving greater ones.

Recognize that to start with he had no old sin nature so the ministry of the Holy Spirit in his life and ministry was like in no other life.
This fact alone, in this preceding sentence, means that no man today can function like Jesus did. That is why he is the only one in all the universe who qualified to be 'the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world'.

We didn't have the same birth with Jesus- he was born without a sin nature I agree. We now have the righteous nature- the same one that Jesus has plus the Holy Spirit. This is what being born- again means. Now we can function like he did and that is why he said as the father sent him so he too is sending us.

His major focus was to fulfill the plan for mankind's salvation. Healings were therefore a secondary part of his ministry. They were added to show or prove that he was who he said he was. So then, Healings should not be given the prominence over the salvation message as HEALING SCHOOLS have become.

The salvation message of God includes the truth that God has healed us and want's us well- and that is what healing schools are for besides, all those that have a healing school got their instructions from God himself.

Paul preached a gospel that made sick people have faith to be healed like the man in Lystra. He preached a gospel that made miracles happen in Galatia, Ephesus etc. Healings are not secondary per se. They are embedded in the message of salvation. A muslim is cripple and a christian approaches him sharing the message of Salvation to him. He tells him about Jesus: how he lived, died and resurrected and the significance of it all including saving him from his sins and sicknesses etc. he believes the message and you ask for a healing in Jesus' name for the man. Instantly, the otherwise cripple man begins to walk. Why would he not easily believe that his sins have been removed the same way his lameness left?

The message of salvation is from faith to faith all through and the Christian is to live by faith for anything that is not of faith is sin. Period.

mbaemeka:

I beseech you to study any verse(s) thoroughly before showing them to me as I may understand them better than you do. It is not a statement of pride. I am merely stating another fact. For example, In the Book of John 3 that you referenced in your post I want you to observe the verse

I think you are the one not looking at the portions of scripture well. Since you are well versed in scripture you must KNOW that earlier manuscripts either have or omit some of words or phrases found in the King James version of the Bible. 
That said, the key issue I wanted you to see in those verses is that the man Jesus was both God and man in one person. There was no loss or mixture of separate identity, the union being UNIQUE. 
Who came from or descended from heaven? Was that person residing in the humanity of Christ?

When you try to explain 'come from above' to mean 'born again' are you saying Jesus was 'born again'? What of the phrase 'he who descended from heaven'; is that clear enough?

Like I've said before now, context is important. You can't just take a verse and then tell me you cross-reference it with what Paul said when he went to heaven. These are two ENTIRELY different persons. One was born WITHOUT the sin nature plus deity resided in him (For in Him all the fullness of deity dwells in bodily form- Col. 2:9) the other only a man. The one is 'as the Father' (John 5:26) the other is as other men. The one - Jesus Christ - gives eternal life, Paul never laid claim to that. Was it the humanity of Christ that would lay claim to giving eternal life or his deity? Obviously his deity. Was this statement after his resurrection?
What do you make of this:"28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one."(John 10)
So do away with thinking that Jesus was like any other man. Those who understood him knew what he meant when he made some of those exceptional statements. 

Now if I quote Hebrews 1 you will end up telling me the  'Son' there refers to Jesus NoW. Maybe you need to look at portion to see that 'the Son' had deity in him. 

Also we DO NOT have the same 'glory' like Jesus Christ. See 1 John 3:2

If you think that the ministry of the Holy Spirit in a PERFECT HUMANITY can be NO DIFFERENT from that in any other human then something is wrong. 
That we can see what appears to be progression in Jesus' miracles is not enough for you to claim that it was because he was 'growing' his faith to do greater miracles. I see no justification for that. If such were the case it would only be because it was for the benefit of the people and not because he was unable to do what may be termed a 'greater' miracle at any point in time in his ministry. The Holy Spirit's work in the ministry of Jesus was not a trial by error thing.

John 14: 12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father."
What does Jesus mean by "works"?

Like I have emphasized, by the time Jesus started his ministry he was FULLY PREPARED. 

When you say: 
"The salvation message of God includes the truth that God has healed us and want's us well- and that is what healing schools are for besides, all those that have a healing school got their instructions from God himself. "
Do you understand that salvation from sin is greater than physical healing?
Do you know that Jesus could but did not heal all?
Do you know Jesus in His mandate for believers was "Go and preach the GOSPEL" and not set up HEALING SCHOOLS?

We should focus on that which was Jesus' focus. His major focus was to fulfill the plan for mankind's salvation. Healings were therefore a secondary part of his ministry. They were added to show or prove that he was who he said he was. So then, Healings should not be given the prominence over the salvation message as HEALING SCHOOLS have become.

Trustman

The key thing God wanted us to understand from there is that Jesus is the Christ and that is how unique the man, Jesus was. There's no need to argue the scriptures because it turns what you believed on it's head. That verse that said he descended from heaven didn't say Jesus descended from heaven for he didn't. Jesus was born by Mary. The word was what descended from heaven and made a form in Mary's womb and was born a human being (100%). So you should understand the context too.

Also, when you talk about the phrase "born again" or "born from above" I need you to understand why I said it in relation to Jesus. Jesus is the son of God because he was born of the word of God same way anyone who is born again is born of the same word of God. Secondly, that verse in Colossians 2 wasn't referring to Jesus while he was on earth. Paul called the person he was describing the "first born from the dead" same way John called Jesus that in Revelations 1:5. How can God be born from the dead?

Jesus also never gave anyone eternal life while he was on earth. He made a promissory note to them and they received it when he resurrected- the scriptures are clear and replete with such notions. You are not helping your argument by quoting portions of scripture with Jesus saying he is one with the Father or what not. I never said he wasn't. I said he FUNCTIONED as a man even if in legal terms he was indeed God. Same way a medical doctor while receiving treatment from another medical doctor remains a doctor in legal terms even if he has become a patient and has to FUNCTION as one by doing what "medical doctor" says to him regardless of his own experience. That's how Jesus functioned.

Don't make me laugh with the reference to John 10. Even up to John 17 Jesus said he had overcome the world. That was him talking faith- he only overcame the world when he died and resurrected. That's what we talk about legal and vital terms. Jesus took a blood oath (communion) with his disciples and told them that was his blood shed for the sins of the world. Tell me had his blood been shed by then? Nobody had eternal life till Jesus died and resurrected.

So please do away with the notion that Jesus was functioning in between being God and man. That's an absolute lie with no corroborating scriptures to effect it. Jesus was God because he hailed from God BUT he FUNCTIONED as a man. He did everything he did on earth as a man and he died as a man. He had to be as much man as the people he was dying for. That's why he had to deplete himself of his privileges as God.

The reason you can't mention Hebrew 1 or any other scriptures that you feel I will tell you it represents the present is because you can see it lucidly from the various books. In Revelations 1: 18 Jesus told John that I was dead but NOW I am alive forevermore and I have collected the Keys of hell and of death from the one who had it- the devil. When did Jesus collect the keys from the devil?

Again lol at 1 John 3:2. I showed you where Jesus said the glory God gave him he is giving to us. I can also show you where scripture says as Jesus IS so are we in this world. Again I can show you where Jesus said as the father sent him so he too is sending us. So why will we have less of him when he is sending us the same way the father sent him (with the Holy Spirit)?

This very scripture buttresses my point all along. If you claim Jesus was functioning as God-man while on earth and he referred to himself as the son of God, then what aspect of our sonship are we not seeing yet? What part does not appear yet? Hahaha.

Jesus was mortal while on earth even though he was God. The immortality that made him God had not appeared while he was on earth before his death. Jesus immortality became evident after he resurrected. That's the same way with us who are already sons of God. We can function like Jesus did while he was on earth even though we do not yet have the Immortal body like he does now but when he appears at the rapture the dead in Christ will first take a new body and ascend from the grave while those of us that are still alive then will change in the twinkle of an eye and we would look like him- immortal. That's what 1 John 3:2 means.

Again Jesus perfect humanity was not his flesh. His flesh was like any other man's. His perfect humanity was his blood and Spirit for they were not tainted by sin. So there was no difference between him when he received the Spirit and We that have received the Spirit now because it is in the same flesh. I told you that Jesus flesh was a mortal one while he was on earth. Only his blood was sinless. So even if his flesh did not sin it could sin if he let it. That was part of the subjection he had to let himself face. So forget all those excuses you were taught and made to believe. If Jesus (having a mortal flesh) could do all he did by the Holy Spirit then we too that have a mortal flesh can do same if we have the same Holy Spirit which we do.

Jesus was as obedient to the Holy Spirit as much as God wants us to for he was the standard. Jesus didn't tell us he could do any greater miracles at any time. He said the Holy Spirit will show HIM greater miracles progressively so that the naysayers and believers alike will marvel. So he had to let the Holy Spirit do what he wanted to do as the opportunity arose- that is the definition of Faith.

In John 14:12 I explained the word works in my previous post even if you pretended not to see it only to ask me again. The works Jesus did are clear in the scriptures- healings, miracles, signs, wonders. The word is ERGON meaning acts or deeds and they would be performed by the HOLY SPIRIT. He wasn't referring to preaching or teaching.

Salvation from sin includes salvation from sickness, ignorance, death etc. Because they all came with sin. If you tell any man that God has taken away his sins then you must tell him that his diseases and sicknesses were taken away the same way. If he believes you, the sicknesses will dematerialize before his very eyes and he will have a greater conviction about the sins being taken away that he cannot visualize.

Jesus COULD NOT heal all the same way he CANNOT save all. He can only save or heal those who believe and put their faith in him. Also, Jesus' mandate to preach the GOSPEL (GOOD NEWS) includes telling people that he has taken away their sicknesses and proving it to them. That is exactly what HEALING SCHOOLS are meant for.

There is no institution that demonstrates Christ's salvation message as the healing school. The healing school is for demonstrating salvation. Salvation messages are preached there copiously for those who come there who may not have been saved. That's why they don't just gather people to lay hands or just pray- No. They teach about Jesus and what his death wrought for his church then they minister to sick people and get them healed to prove that the same Jesus that lived on this earth and did all those wonderful things including dying on the cross is very much alive today still doing the same things- that's the salvation theme: Jesus is ALIVE! And that's the level God wants all his children to get to.

Warped logic probably recited from a 'Christian' book by you know whom;
You are in danger of hellfire and you think you can LIE (to GOD) your way out of this by claiming you did stuff in Jesus name you never did? Not logical.
In any case, if these people will be at the judgement seat lying, what would Jesus' rational response be? Tell them they are lying. Instead He says he never knew them meaning regardless of what they did, He never knew them. Their sin/disqualification is WORKING INIQUITY and NOT PURPORTING TO HAVE DONE THINGS IN JESUS NAME THEY NEVER DID

Mark 9:39New King James Version (NKJV)
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

This verse, Jesus was specifically addressing disciples' concern with people who did miracles and they were not following Him as the disciples. He sought to allay their fears that the men were blaspheming. It does not prove that one can't perform miracles in Jesus name and still perish

mbaemeka:
So my dear, the people in Matthew 7 that you made references to never did any of those things that they SAID they did. They will only SAY so to escape the lake of fire and of course they will fail because they never knew Christ and as such never did what they claimed. Jesus said anyone who tastes of that power from on high can't in return speak evil of him. It is virtually impossible to do so. I don't know how to argue my relationship with God with an atheist for example, How do I tell someone else that I hear God speak to me by the Holy Spirit? They will call me deluded or a liar.

So whenever you listen to debates about the name of Jesus and people are raising suspicions and doubts for whatever situation like "alluding to the fact that anyone who uses the name of Jesus to wrought miracles could be occultic or fake", just know that they don't walk in that power.

vooks: Warped logic probably recited from a 'Christian' book by you know whom;
You are in danger of hellfire and you think you can LIE (to GOD) your way out of this by claiming you did stuff in Jesus name you never did? Not logical.
In any case, if these people will be at the judgement seat lying, what would Jesus' rational response be? Tell them they are lying. Instead He says he never knew them meaning regardless of what they did, He never knew them. Their sin/disqualification is WORKING INIQUITY and NOT PURPORTING TO HAVE DONE THINGS IN JESUS NAME THEY NEVER DID

Don't quote me if you have nothing meaningful to say. You didn't need to create a new handle to engage me. I quoted the scriptures and showed you exactly what Jesus said and I interpreted it for all to see because I know what it is to act in the name of Jesus. The name belongs to ONLY christians. Let me quote Jesus again this time maybe you would be kind enough to read it a little slower while meditating on it.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

From the verses above we can infer 2 things:

1. There are some that say "lord,lord" that will enter the kingdom of heaven.
2. There are some that will say that they prophesied, cast out demons, did many wonders and he will say to them "thou good and faithful servant, welcome"

Agree? Good. So who are those ones? Let us start from there and we would watch your interpretation crumble like biscuits. BTW, he said "I never knew you" not that "I knew you but you backslid" or "I knew you but you worked iniquity". He said "I never knew you" meaning you were never a christian, period.

Mark 9:39New King James Version (NKJV)
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

This verse, Jesus was specifically addressing disciples' concern with people who did miracles and they were not following Him as the disciples. He sought to allay their fears that the men were blaspheming. It does not prove that one can't perform miracles in Jesus name and still perish

You spoke about warped logic earlier on right? The emboldened is a perfect example of such. Jesus said NO ONE meaning not a single soul who works a miracle IN MY NAME can soon after speak evil of me. For if you taste of that power, you would know there is nothing or no one greater than the one vested in Jesus' name.

But like I have been saying: anyone can quote scriptures in any format and use it to make a case (even atheists) because there is no experience to back the interpretation given. That all changes when you are boxed to prove that what you believe works and then we start hearing all sorts of dumb excuses.

mbaemeka:

The key thing God wanted us to understand from there is that Jesus is the Christ and that is how unique the man, Jesus was. There's no need to argue the scriptures because it turns what you believed on it's head. That verse that said he descended from heaven didn't say Jesus descended from heaven for he didn't. Jesus was born by Mary. The word was what descended from heaven and made a form in Mary's womb and was born a human being (100%) .... ..... .......

Note this again carefully, a man born WITHOUT the old sin nature CANNOT be the same as one born with the sin nature. That is the main reason why Jesus was not conceived with the involvement of any man (male species of the human race). So his humanity was different from that of any other person. As the 'lamb without blemish' he not only lived a sin-free life but was in the first place without the imputation of Adam's sin which each and every other human possesses. If you think that this does not make him unique then I wonder if you understand the issue of total depravity of man and that of sin and its effect on man and creation. By living a sin-free life Jesus in a sense overcame the world. By his work (note 'WORK') on the cross he won a strategic victory. Yes Jesus was a man yet he lived a life different from any other man because he had no sin nature, used his will to the maximum to please the Father and fulfilled ALL that was required if him. No man can truly claim all these. 


It appears to me that you choose to interpret Jesus' words the way you please. Jesus did things while on earth that only God can do. He forgave sin. Was he doing this as a mere man? When: "58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.(John eight) was he saying that in the flesh he existed before Abraham or talking about his deity. If he only presented himself as a man would this statement make sense? When John 1: 10 tell us "He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him." was it the humanity of Jesus that was in the world that made the world? Is it not clear here that it was the creator of the world that was in the world? If it was just a mere human that was in the world wouldn't this statement be wrong? Colossians 2:9 states it as it is how you now interpret it to mean that it wasn't referring to Jesus while here on earth I don't know. 
Keep in mind again what I have been saying Jesus was the God-man, a union of true humanity and Undiminished deity in one person. He voluntarily RESTRICTED the independent use of his deity. But while in flesh everything about his deity remained. For example he was still holding the universe together. 

There is no single example of a man who functioned like Jesus did. If you know of any show me. There is none because he was unique. He was different. So yes, we are sent by him into the world but we must not think we are by that appointment equal with him. It would be stupidity to equate ourselves with one who received the Holy Spirit without measure. 

There is a difference between him and us because we continue to have the sin nature which he never did. 

I still do not see anything in scripture that talks about doing miracles progressively. Maybe the WoF advocates use this to justify their inability to do certain things at any point in their ministry. Maybe you should show me clearly. 

Again because Jesus did not heal all DOES NOT mean he did not have the ABILITY to heal all. The two are different. 

You are ADDING to what Jesus stated in Matthew 28:18-20 when you include healing schools in it. Please show me where that is included in that passage. 

Jesus' miracles were not formally arranged. It did not take those healed days or weeks to be healed as a result of their needing to increase their faith to be healed. Healing schools are the OPPOSITE of this. To that extent they run in direct contrast to how Jesus FUNCTIONED. Because the soul is more important than the body the overemphasis on healing schools turns the priority upside down as it focuses more on the physical than on the soul.

So many words to suggest that men standing before God will LIE and God will be too busy to refute their LIES....think!
Jesus response is simple; 'You did ALL that but I never knew you' and not 'lairs! You did nothing like that and I never knew you'.

‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?
Does it take discernment to see that they are reminding Christ of what they did and they are shocked that it counts for nothing?



Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


What can we learn from this?
1. Not all that call Jesus Lord will enter
2. Only those who do the Father's will
3. it is possible to call Jesus Lord WITHOUT doing the Father's will
4.On judgement some will call Jesus Lord but he will reject them as workers of iniquity

The question is, what does Jesus never knowing them mean? If only those who do the will of the Father enter the Kingdom of heaven, then all who won't get in don't do Father's will. Those who don't do the will of the Father regardless of whether they call Jesus Lord or they did miracles in his name, will not make it. They are collectively dismissed as workers of iniquity. and it is these that Jesus says he never knew.

Your weak and unsupported logic is NOBODY can perform miracles in Jesus name and be a sinner or live in sin. This helps you conclude that any miracle worker in Jesus name (read Oyaks) is not a sinner. You are forcing men at judgement to LIE so you can support Oyakhilome's righteousness. When the disciples forbade those not following Jesus from performing miracles, their concern was not that they were sinner but only that they acted independently. Wrong example. Judas performed miracles with the rest but he perished. Am sure if he died in his sins, on judgement day he may remind Christ of all the miracles he did.

mbaemeka:

Don't quote me if you have nothing meaningful to say. You didn't need to create a new handle to engage me. I quoted the scriptures and showed you exactly what Jesus said and I interpreted it for all to see because I know what it is to act in the name of Jesus. The name belongs to ONLY christians. Let me quote Jesus again this time maybe you would be kind enough to read it a little slower while meditating on it.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

From the verses above we can infer 2 things:

1. There are some that say "lord,lord" that will enter the kingdom of heaven.
2. There are some that will say that they prophesied, cast out demons, did many wonders and he will say to them "thou good and faithful servant, welcome"

Agree? Good. So who are those ones? Let us start from there and we would watch your interpretation crumble like biscuits. BTW, he said "I never knew you" not that "I knew you but you backslid" or "I knew you but you worked iniquity". He said "I never knew you" meaning you were never a christian, period.



You spoke about warped logic earlier on right? The emboldened is a perfect example of such. Jesus said NO ONE meaning not a single soul who works a miracle IN MY NAME can soon after speak evil of me. For if you taste of that power, you would know there is nothing or no one greater than the one vested in Jesus' name.

But like I have been saying: anyone can quote scriptures in any format and use it to make a case (even atheists) because there is no experience to back the interpretation given. That all changes when you are boxed to prove that what you believe works and then we start hearing all sorts of dumb excuses.

Vooks,

You are saying many words and yet passing no message. Let me ask again.

1. Not everyone who says "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This means some that say "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom. Who are those?

2. Jesus didn't say "those who prophesied in my name, cast out demons in my name etc." I never you. He said they will SAY to him "lord we cast out demons in your name. . .etc" and he would respond that he NEVER knew them.

Who can be regarded by Christ as "I NEVER KNEW YOU?" If someone was born again and worked miracles in Jesus name and later apostasized will Jesus say "I never knew you"? Or will he say "You were once in my fold but you left"?

3. Do you know what it means to act or do something in Jesus name? What does working iniquity mean?

4. Do you think that name can be used by sinners to achieve anything (save obtain salvation) ?

5. Then for your references to the disciples account, you have spoken like a true nepios (one not accustomed to walking in the knowledge or power of God). How could his disciples who thought the preserve of working miracles in Jesus' name accept that someone somewhere could do that without following Jesus? What was Jesus' response? Why did he not talk about sinners using his name but on the last day I would decide who is who? Why did he say "don't forbid them"?

You need not respond as Jesus already did. He said NO ONE who works a miracle in my name will afterwards speak evil of me. So stop bending Jesus' words to suit your unbelief. The name of Jesus can never be used to work miracles by sinners. In fact, it is an insult to Jesus for anyone to suggest so let alone a hypocrite arrogating the right to call one righteous or unrighteous.

mbaemeka,
Let's practice thinking for once;
Answer these three questions as faithfully as you can
1. Did Judas perform miracles in the name of Jesus?

Luke 9:1-7 King James Version (KJV)
9 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

2. Did Judas perish in sin?


John 17:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

3. Can somebody who has ever performed miracles in Jesus name perish?


Now,
Let me answer your questions

mbaemeka: Vooks,

You are saying many words and yet passing no message. Let me ask again.

1. Not everyone who says "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven. This means some that say "lord, lord" will enter the kingdom. Who are those?
Those who do the will of the Father

2. Jesus didn't say "those who prophesied in my name, cast out demons in my name etc." I never you. He said they will SAY to him "lord we cast out demons in your name. . .etc" and he would respond that he NEVER knew them.

Read Ezekiel 18 especially 26-27

Ezekiel 18:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.


Who can be regarded by Christ as "I NEVER KNEW YOU?" If someone was born again and worked miracles in Jesus name and later apostasized will Jesus say "I never knew you"? Or will he say "You were once in my fold but you left"?

3. Do you know what it means to act or do something in Jesus name? What does working iniquity mean?

Regardless of what it means, there are some who acted and did something in Jesus name and were dismissed as workers of iniquity

4. Do you think that name can be used by sinners to achieve anything (save obtain salvation) ?

Was Judas a sinner? Did he use that name?

John 12:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.


5. Then for your references to the disciples account, you have spoken like a true nepios (one not accustomed to walking in the knowledge or power of God). How could his disciples who thought the preserve of working miracles in Jesus' name accept that someone somewhere could do that without following Jesus? What was Jesus' response? Why did he not talk about sinners using his name but on the last day I would decide who is who? Why did he say "don't forbid them"?

Irrelevant questions drawn from an irrelevant example. Was Judas a sinner?

You need not respond as Jesus already did. He said NO ONE who works a miracle in my name will afterwards speak evil of me. So stop bending Jesus' words to suit your unbelief. The name of Jesus can never be used to work miracles by sinners. In fact, it is an insult to Jesus for anyone to suggest so let alone a hypocrite arrogating the right to call one righteous or unrighteous.

Trustman

In typical Trustman style you keep recycling the same issues and giving your own interpretations of my statements then giving your purported "correct" interpretations regardless of how ridden with contradictions they are. For instance, I have maintained all through that Jesus (the man) was unique in that he had a SINLESS SPIRIT and SINLESS BLOOD but his FLESH was a sinful one and therefore subject to the temptations of sin.

I also told you repeatedly that the miracles he wrought were not as a result of his blood or spirit but they were as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT that was within him (his sinful/ mortal flesh). For this very fact any man that is born into this world with a mortal flesh like Jesus will be able to do the same miracles he did if he has the HOLY SPIRIT within like Jesus did. It doesn't matter how much you say SINFUL NATURE in relation to mankind or in contrast with Jesus. SINFUL NATURE refers to the SPIRIT of the unregenerate man and not his FLESH. When a man becomes Born again he receives a NEW NATURE that is now SINLESS like Jesus' and he receives the HOLY SPIRIT that enables the miracles to happen so men have as much claim to the miraculous and Jesus said so belaboredly.

That Jesus forgave sin isn't anything to behold his Deity from. I told you he made claims to his deity without FUNCTIONING as deity. Jesus said he forgave sins to show that the SON OF MAN could forgive sins and not that GOD could forgive sins (which everyone knows including Pharisees). Jesus also gave us the right to forgive any man's sins just like he did. It is not a big deal. Stop cherry-picking words in a style that doesn't show scriptural maturity. When Jesus died and resurrected he became the one to REMOVE sins and not just forgive sins which any christian can do. This clearly shows the world of class between the man and the GOD.

Jesus didn't say before Abraham I was. He said before Abraham "I AM". If the Jews understood him to mean he was saying he pre-existed Abraham they would have laughed him off as a mad man seeing that they knew he was just 33. But for him to say I AM he was making a claim to his deity as the WORD of God that was in the bosom of the father when he appeared to Moses in the burning bush. Again this is Jesus making a claim to his deity and NOT FUNCTIONING as one.

Again in John 1:10 like all the verses above it was John explaining Jesus' CLAIM to deity and not his FUNCTIONS because he never once functioned as GOD while on earth. He only made claims and I have said that so many times it is baffling that you continue to pretend that it is flying over you. Besides, John was describing the WORD in the beginning of his book because he was trying to set the precedence before stating that that WORD was what was made FLESH and dwelled amongst us. Again proving me right that JESUS was flesh and functioned as one because Jesus is the WORD that became FLESH and John wrote this AFTER Jesus had died and resurrected.

Colossians 2 or any of Paul's writings would not help your case so there's no need mentioning them. The books are very clear. Jesus is the first born from the dead; who died on the cross and brought us into oneness with God. If Jesus was functioning as God while on earth he would not have died or be referred to as the first born from the dead. If Jesus was functioning as God he would not be described as the first creation for GOD cannot be created. The word which was in God was released on earth to become a man named Jesus. That man died on the cross and was raised. He became the first born from the dead as a result and was elevated to a status that the WORD had at the beginning of the creation- God. His name was exalted too as a result and he was given ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH AND EVEN UNDERNEATH THE EARTH and Jesus told his disciples when this happened- after the resurrection.

Whether you called Jesus the God-man or whether that is in contention isn't the essence of this discourse. I have maintained and continue to do so from scripture that albeit Jesus was God and made claims to that effect. He never functioned as God while on earth (before his death). He functioned ONLY as a man. He wasn't holding any universe while on earth- he was a mere man that needed to pray always like he recommended mere men did. He wept, he sweated, he panicked even before his death. All these easily show manly attitudes in him and not his deity.

Jesus was as different as Adam and only just because both men had sinless spirits and blood at conception even though their flesh was subject to sin. While Adam failed by subjecting himself to sin, Jesus won by not doing so. Jesus had to be as much man as Adam was given that he was going to represent the same men that Adam initially represented. After Jesus resurrected he gave the new men (formed after him) the right to act in his authority and receive the same Spirit he received without measure just like him. In fact, it would be outright stupidity to reject the instructions he gave us "to go in his authority" saying that he was unique and only him could function that way. When he himself has already told you he is sending you the same way his father sent him.

A born again man doesn't have A SIN NATURE. For what makes a man's nature is the SPIRIT that he has and the born again man has been created in RIGHTEOUSNESS. But Just like Jesus we have a mortal flesh that can sin and Paul told us to bring it under subjection.

As per progressively doing miracles you don't need to see it given that you may have not studied the scriptures well. I have put the verses showing Jesus saying exactly that- that the Holy spirit will show him GREATER miracles than the one's the Jews had already seen at the point, so that they would marvel. If you have a better interpretation of the verse please show us here.

Again Mark 6:5 says Jesus COULD NOT do mighty (GREATER works/miracles) in Nazareth because of his people's LACK OF FAITH so he went about teaching them (again showing teaching is not the works). The bible never said Jesus DID NOT or that he CHOSE NOT to. The bible said HE COULD NOT and in English language the word COULD signifies an ability to do something and not a willingness. Jesus cannot save or heal anyone that doesn't believe in him to do so.

I am not ADDING to anything in showing you the commission he gave to us. For whatever he said in Matthew 28 was the same thing Mark 16 was referring to. The gospel of Jesus is that he has saved mankind from SIN and the consequences of it. Sickness is one of the consequences of sin and healing schools help people receive the healing that Jesus salvation wrought for them. That's why Jesus told his disciples to wait in Jerusalem first before going about to preach the gospel. He knew the gospel required more than words- it also required the demonstration of the power. In Acts 1:8 Jesus said when they received the Holy Spirit they will now receive the POWER to be effective witnesses for him around the world. Paul who came into the scene much later taught the same things: that he didn't only preach with words he also demonstrated the power in the gospel. And even today (just like the early church) we are to preach the gospel with the same power and even more. That is what Healing Schools are meant for.

Jesus healed formally on occasions. People gathered at his door and then he healed all of them. He also instructed his disciples to go out and heal people. Not all the people Jesus healed got healed instantly. Some by gratitude received a wholeness while others just had the symptoms stop. Besides, healing schools don't have gradual healings. They teach faith messages first because that's what causes the miracles to work. While teaching faith some people act on the word and get healed while others may require a touch from the healing minister. Many times when the healing minister touches those still left they receive instant healings and continue to live so even till 30years later.

Healing schools are not church services or crusades where salvation is majorly preached even though salvation messages are preached in healing schools. Healing schools are even held in periods at the leading of the spirit of God and are less frequent than normal church services. As for messages of the gospel they are taught regularly in church services to those who have already received it and are on course to grow. So those who didn't get sent by God should mind their businesses and leave those who actually were sent to do what God asked them to do.

vooks: mbaemeka,
Let's practice thinking for once;
Answer these three questions as faithfully as you can
1. Did Judas perform miracles in the name of Jesus?

Luke 9:1-7 King James Version (KJV)
9 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.
2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.
3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
4 And whatsoever house ye enter into, there abide, and thence depart.
5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
6 And they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where.

2. Did Judas perish in sin?


John 17:12 King James Version (KJV)
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

3. Can somebody who has ever performed miracles in Jesus name perish?

I don't think about the word of God. The spirit of God teaches me. Maybe you should stop reasoning the word and just take him for who he is.

1. Did Judas cast out demons etc? Yes he did under the delegated authority that Jesus gave his disciples while he was alive (before his death). Judas was not a christian for Jesus had not died.

2. Judas perished in sin because he was never saved to begin with and he killed himself before he could be. Thereby fulfilling scriptures.

3. If a christian that performed miracles in Jesus name apostasizes and walks away from the faith he/she would perish. But it would be almost impossible for any christian who has tasted of this power in Jesus name to apostasize and deny the faith. Paul said if they ever did so they would never be able to repent again (and not that God would not forgive them). Even at that Jesus would not say to the person "I never knew you" for that would be a lie. Jesus knew the person as a christian while he worked miracles in his name. The person only lost his way and denied Jesus by saying he doesn't want to be christian again. That's apostasy and it is the only way salvation can be lost.

Can you see why it is impossible for a sinner to use the name of Jesus to achieve a miracle? Besides, Jesus said to them "I NEVER knew you" proving without a doubt that they didn't do what they claimed.

I do think and meditate about the Word of God and clearly the Spirit does not teach corpses nor birds but thinking men. You are thinking about what/how to respond and quit pretending otherwise. The scriptures were not transmitted by the Spirit but by thinking men diligently compared and translated. Thinking is a privilege I don't abuse

mbaemeka:

I don't think about the word of God. The spirit of God teaches me. Maybe you should stop reasoning the word and just take him for who he is.

1. Did Judas cast out demons etc? Yes he did under the delegated authority that Jesus gave his disciples while he was alive (before his death). Judas was not a christian for Jesus had not died.

Jesus never said many Christians (by your definition, post resurrection believers)would say Lord Lord...He said many so we can't preclude pre-resurrection believers. Judas is well included here. Try another escape route

2. Judas perished in sin because he was never saved to begin with and he killed himself before he could be. Thereby fulfilling scriptures.

The FACT is a man who did miracles in Jesus name perished.

3. If a christian that performed miracles in Jesus name apostasizes and walks away from the faith he/she would perish. But it would be almost impossible for any christian who has tasted of this power in Jesus name to apostasize and deny the faith. Paul said if they ever did so they would never be able to repent again (and not that God would not forgive them). Even at that Jesus would not say to the person "I never knew you" for that would be a lie. Jesus knew the person as a christian while he worked miracles in his name. The person only lost his way and denied Jesus by saying he doesn't want to be christian again. That's apostasy and it is the only way salvation can be lost.

ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE is your thinking. You might as well quantify that. What percentage of miracle performing Christians perish? It does not matter. Some will

Can you see why it is impossible for a sinner to use the name of Jesus to achieve a miracle? Besides, Jesus said to them "I NEVER knew you" proving without a doubt that they didn't do what they claimed.

Ezekiel is very clear. Your state at death determines your eternity. Ditto the thief on the cross. Did Jesus know him seeing they met a few hours before their death? NEVER knowing means they perished in their sins. Whether they sinned all their lives or at death is irrelevant. Read Ezekiel 18 again

This means it is perfectly possible for a Christian miracle worker to perish, especially habitual sinners

The point is working miracles is no measure of immunity from hellfire, living the Father's will is. These are not necessarily synonymous meaning you can do Father's will without performing miracles and you can perform miracles and miss Father's will

Mbaemeka,
Two quick ones
1. Do you have the Holy Spirit as Jesus did? You should since the Spirit teaches you while mere mortals like me are left to REASONING
2. Do you do the same miracles Jesus did?

mbaemeka:

I also told you repeatedly that the miracles he wrought were not as a result of his blood or spirit but they were as a result of the HOLY SPIRIT that was within him (his sinful/ mortal flesh). For this very fact any man that is born into this world with a mortal flesh like Jesus will be able to do the same miracles he did if he has the HOLY SPIRIT within like Jesus did.

INIQUITY

In addition to what vooks is trying to say here, there is only one true test of a disciple of Christ and that his/her ability to reign over his iniquity. It is not knowledge of sound doctrine - orthodoxy; it is not miracle working; it is holiness. That is the message of Matthew 7:21ff.

Sound doctrine should aid holy living. Whatever is taught in a local assembly that leaves its members still practising sin is not sound doctrine, regardless of how high sounding those messages are. Miracles also should spur the fear of God in men heart and lead to increased devotion to Christ. Whatever miracles are worked anywhere that still leaves church members in sin, are the workings of demons.

Iniquity is sin. In the OT, we discover that iniquity, transgression, sin, lawlessness, disobedience, etc, were synonyms but I believe that iniquity was more of that secret, cherished sins - many times of the heart. David called on God in the OT to deliver him from his iniquity.

That cry of David shows to us that iniquity is usually not the obvious sins but the hidden ones. Everyone has his own iniquity. A true believer detest and abhors it but works hard to overcome it. A false believer justify it, make excuses for it and practices it in secret.

These are the people Christ will reject on that day. Those who work iniquity.

vooks: I do think and meditate about the Word of God and clearly the Spirit does not teach corpses nor birds but thinking men. You are thinking about what/how to respond and quit pretending otherwise. The scriptures were not transmitted by the Spirit but by thinking men diligently compared and translated. Thinking is a privilege I don't abuse

Like said earlier- I don't reason out the word of God. I let the Holy Spirit teach me through the word and I take him for exactly what he is and not a watered-down version.

Jesus never said many Christians (by your definition, post resurrection believers)would say Lord Lord...He said many so we can't preclude pre-resurrection believers. Judas is well included here. Try another escape route

Simple comprehension should be applied here.

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

I don't know what Christianity has to do with the discourse. Anybody can say Lord Lord doesn't mean they are saved. The will of the father is that men should believe the one he sent- Jesus. That's what Jesus meant.

The FACT is a man who did miracles in Jesus name perished.

The man perished as an apostate and Jesus would not say to Judas "I never knew you". That's simple enough. Judas couldn't repent because he tasted of that power from on high and later dis-reputed it.

ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE is your thinking. You might as well quantify that. What percentage of miracle performing Christians perish? It does not matter. Some will

No Christian will perish. Let alone a miracle-performing one.

Ezekiel is very clear. Your state at death determines your eternity. Ditto the thief on the cross. Did Jesus know him seeing they met a few hours before their death? NEVER knowing means they perished in their sins. Whether they sinned all their lives or at death is irrelevant. Read Ezekiel 18 again

This means it is perfectly possible for a Christian miracle worker to perish, especially habitual sinners

You don't know who a christian is. A christian is the opposite of a sinner so let that marinate first. You have totally missed the mark with your Ezekiel reference and now is not the time or the thread to school you on that. The thief on the cross got the same promissory note that other disciples had before Jesus death and resurrection. Jesus would know him in Heaven even if he had worked iniquity all through his life because Jesus knew him when it mattered to the thief.

Vooks,

Those who do the will of the Father

John 6:40New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
40 This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the Son and believe in him may have eternal life; and I will raise them up on the last day.”

Do you understand Jesus now? Anyone saying Lord Lord doesn't matter to him except they are Christians. That's what he was saying. Also anyone merely "SAYING" "I did this in your name and I did that in your name" is only just saying it. They are not Christians- they are sinners (those who work iniquity by nature)

Read Ezekiel 18 especially 26-27

Ezekiel 18:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

Does this mean that if a christian sins he has lost his salvation? hahahaha.

Regardless of what it means, there are some who acted and did something in Jesus name and were dismissed as workers of iniquity

That is a lie. Jesus said Many will SAY to him and not many who did. . .read the words well and stop with your additions.

Was Judas a sinner? Did he use that name?

John 12:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Judas was a sinner like every other man that pre-existed Jesus' death was. Even those who don't believe in Jesus regardless of how well behaved they are- they are ALL sinners. But before Jesus died his name was not yet salvific coupled with the fact that it had limitations in its use- it was restricted to Israel. So Judas and co worked miracles in the name (in the stead of the owner and with the authority he possessed) even though they were still sinners then. When Jesus died and resurrected the name had all the authority in heaven and in earth and became the name that saves people. The name belongs now to Christians.

So again like I said in the previous post- Judas was not unknown by Jesus, Judas was known but he died without receiving Christ's salvation that's why he went to hell and nothing more.

vooks: Mbaemeka,
Two quick ones
1. Do you have the Holy Spirit as Jesus did? You should since the Spirit teaches you while mere mortals like me are left to REASONING
2. Do you do the same miracles Jesus did?

1. I DO
2. I DO

Mbaemeka x3

Your posts dey loong o. Try dey summaries na

Joagbaje:
Mbaemeka x3

Your posts dey loong o. Try dey summaries na

I am trying to respond to his post's according to each paragraph. I should take note and make them as short as possible.