Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship.

My question is; is that tantamount to idolatry?

Don't get me twisted here because am not in any way doubting the origin or authenticity of my religion because in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simone son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh of blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it".

Please no castigation's, rather lets build our faith okay!!!

Cheers,

[quote author=clem305D]Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship.

My question is; is that tantamount to idolatry?

Don't get me twisted here because am not in any way doubting the origin or authenticity of my religion because in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simone son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh of blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it".

Please no castigation's, rather lets build our faith okay!!![\quote] Sadly, our Catholic friends and family
members have been indoctrinated to believe that
the use of statues, relics, and other articles is
acceptable and even necessary for worship. They
have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church
that the images and icons used in the church are
not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual
aids” to worship.
The Catholic Church long ago began making
allowances for the idolatrous use of images by
the way they reference the Ten Commandments .
In the Catholic catechism and in most official
Catholic documents, the first and second
commandments are combined and then
summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You
shall not have other gods beside Me.”
Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second
commandment in the Protestant numbering of the
Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any
graven images.”
While it is understandable for “you shall not make
any graven images” to be considered an aspect of
“you shall not have other gods beside me,” based
on the history of idolatry involving graven images
throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it
seems unwise to not include “you shall not make
any graven images” in every listing of the Ten
Commandments. The omission seems especially
suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman
Catholic Church has long been accused of the
idolatrous use of graven images.
There are good reasons for not using images in
worship. First of all, the use of physical images to
“aid” worship violates the command to worship
God “in spirit and in truth” ( John 4:23-24 ). Also,
no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18
is clear concerning this truth: “No one has seen
God at any time; the only begotten God who is in
the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
And, because God is Spirit ( John 4:24a ), it is
irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic
representation. No one alive knows what Jesus
Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there
were no cameras when He walked the earth, the
only description of His appearance is found in
Isaiah 53:2-3 , which says that He had “no stately
form or majesty.”
The lack of a physical description of Christ has
not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting
Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions,
convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic-
affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings
of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary,
Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There
are statues in abundance; there are relics, such
as bone fragments, said to have belonged to
certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces
of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All
of these things are held to be sacred objects
worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant
and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics
do not believe they are committing idolatry. They
have been cleverly taught to believe that they do
not worship these idols; they simply “venerate”
them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives
honor and reverence to something and/or
someone other than God; therefore, veneration is
idolatry.
Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in
violation of God’s command. The best way to
reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of
grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw
them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s
leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the
false teaching they are continually hearing, and,
until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave
it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must
keep loving them and trust that God will prepare
the soil of their hearts ( Luke 8:11-15 ). Never give
up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day.

Cheers

clem305D: Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship.

My question is; is that tantamount to idolatry?

Don't get me twisted here because am not in any way doubting the origin or authenticity of my religion because in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simone son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh of blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it".

Please no castigation's, rather lets build our faith okay!!!

Cheers,

Sadly, our Catholic friends and family
members have been indoctrinated to believe that
the use of statues, relics, and other articles is
acceptable and even necessary for worship. They
have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church
that the images and icons used in the church are
not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual
aids” to worship.
The Catholic Church long ago began making
allowances for the idolatrous use of images by
the way they reference the Ten Commandments .
In the Catholic catechism and in most official
Catholic documents, the first and second
commandments are combined and then
summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You
shall not have other gods beside Me.”
Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second
commandment in the Protestant numbering of the
Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any
graven images.”
While it is understandable for “you shall not make
any graven images” to be considered an aspect of
“you shall not have other gods beside me,” based
on the history of idolatry involving graven images
throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it
seems unwise to not include “you shall not make
any graven images” in every listing of the Ten
Commandments. The omission seems especially
suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman
Catholic Church has long been accused of the
idolatrous use of graven images.
There are good reasons for not using images in
worship. First of all, the use of physical images to
“aid” worship violates the command to worship
God “in spirit and in truth” ( John 4:23-24 ). Also,
no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18
is clear concerning this truth: “No one has seen
God at any time; the only begotten God who is in
the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
And, because God is Spirit ( John 4:24a ), it is
irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic
representation. No one alive knows what Jesus
Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there
were no cameras when He walked the earth, the
only description of His appearance is found in
Isaiah 53:2-3 , which says that He had “no stately
form or majesty.”
The lack of a physical description of Christ has
not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting
Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions,
convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic-
affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings
of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary,
Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There
are statues in abundance; there are relics, such
as bone fragments, said to have belonged to
certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces
of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All
of these things are held to be sacred objects
worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant
and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics
do not believe they are committing idolatry. They
have been cleverly taught to believe that they do
not worship these idols; they simply “venerate”
them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives
honor and reverence to something and/or
someone other than God; therefore, veneration is
idolatry.
Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in
violation of God’s command. The best way to
reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of
grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw
them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s
leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the
false teaching they are continually hearing, and,
until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave
it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must
keep loving them and trust that God will prepare
the soil of their hearts ( Luke 8:11-15 ). Never give
up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day.

clem305D: Hi folks, am a catholic from a staunch catholic background. I have been troubled over this issue for some time now and need some peer reviewed opinion on it. In Exodus 20:4 it states "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments". Now in the catholic church we have various associations such as; Legion of Mary, Holy infant Jesus, Block Rosary... among many others. Most of these associations have images they use in veneration and worship.

My question is; is that tantamount to idolatry?

Don't get me twisted here because am not in any way doubting the origin or authenticity of my religion because in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus replied "Blessed are you Simone son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh of blood, but by my father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it".

Please no castigation's, rather lets build our faith okay!!!

Cheers,

in the same scriptures God also tell them to make an image of a cherubim, is that also idolatry?

@op... Go to the book of 1 kings... There were alot of images in the temple built by Solomon... Also, the ark of the convenant has images on top of it... And the bible didnt say that they disobeyed the commandent of God by making such image. Even, the cherub image above the ark was built under God's direction.

you mean the snake image...yea, tho a bit contraditory

Ubenedictus:

in the same scriptures God also tell them to make an image of a cherubim, is that also idolatry?

i will answer you in details latter.but for now what consistute worship to you. in my own words it is given the space of God in your heart to an image,given praise and gory to it, your time attention and dedication to it. secondly if you are a catholic as you claim you wld hv known the answer to your question. maybe u are a sunday only catholic. ask your priest or belong to a group in your parish or school to grow your faith, the internet is not the place to ask this question.

Ukutsgp: Sadly, our Catholic friends and family
members have been indoctrinated to believe that
the use of statues, relics, and other articles is
acceptable and even necessary for worship. They
have been taught by the Roman Catholic Church
that the images and icons used in the church are
not actually “worshiped” but are simply “visual
aids” to worship.
The Catholic Church long ago began making
allowances for the idolatrous use of images by
the way they reference the Ten Commandments .
In the Catholic catechism and in most official
Catholic documents, the first and second
commandments are combined and then
summarized with “I am the Lord your God. You
shall not have other gods beside Me.”
Suspiciously absent is what comprises the second
commandment in the Protestant numbering of the
Ten Commandments: “You shall not make any
graven images.”
While it is understandable for “you shall not make
any graven images” to be considered an aspect of
“you shall not have other gods beside me,” based
on the history of idolatry involving graven images
throughout biblical and extra-biblical history, it
seems unwise to not include “you shall not make
any graven images” in every listing of the Ten
Commandments. The omission seems especially
suspicious in light of the fact that the Roman
Catholic Church has long been accused of the
idolatrous use of graven images.
There are good reasons for not using images in
worship. First of all, the use of physical images to
“aid” worship violates the command to worship
God “in spirit and in truth” ( John 4:23-24 ). Also,
no one knows what God looks like, and John 1:18
is clear concerning this truth: “No one has seen
God at any time; the only begotten God who is in
the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
And, because God is Spirit ( John 4:24a ), it is
irreverent to delineate Him as an iconic
representation. No one alive knows what Jesus
Christ looked like in the flesh, and, since there
were no cameras when He walked the earth, the
only description of His appearance is found in
Isaiah 53:2-3 , which says that He had “no stately
form or majesty.”
The lack of a physical description of Christ has
not stopped the Catholic Church from depicting
Him. Throughout Catholic churches, institutions,
convents, monasteries, and every other Catholic-
affiliated building and shrine, there are paintings
of God the Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Mary,
Joseph, and a myriad of canonized saints. There
are statues in abundance; there are relics, such
as bone fragments, said to have belonged to
certain saints. Some shrines even contain pieces
of wood purported to be part of Jesus’ cross. All
of these things are held to be sacred objects
worthy of high regard. The idolatry is rampant
and fairly obvious to non-Catholics, yet Catholics
do not believe they are committing idolatry. They
have been cleverly taught to believe that they do
not worship these idols; they simply “venerate”
them. The problem is that “veneration” still gives
honor and reverence to something and/or
someone other than God; therefore, veneration is
idolatry.
Yes, Catholics do practice a form of idolatry, in
violation of God’s command. The best way to
reach our Catholic friends with the gospel of
grace is to pray that the Holy Spirit will draw
them and that they will respond to the Spirit’s
leading. Their eyes and hearts are blinded by the
false teaching they are continually hearing, and,
until they begin to seek the truth, we must leave
it in God’s capable hands. As we pray, we must
keep loving them and trust that God will prepare
the soil of their hearts ( Luke 8:11-15 ). Never give
up hope; the Holy Spirit does miracles every day.

indirctly you are saying catholic to church every day to worship images,, of saints and holy mary. if you believe that you are truly blind.see beyoud your nose

felixzo1: indirctly you are saying catholic to church every day to worship images,, of saints and holy mary. if you believe that you are truly blind.see beyoud your nose

my friend. what i posted was clear enough for even primary school pupil to understand. u know what i'm talking about. the rcc worship idols not GOD.

Ukutsgp: my friend. what i posted was clear enough for even primary school pupil to understand. u know what i'm talking about. the rcc worship idols not GOD.

in your own human wisdom they worship idols. thank God you are human not God.

notated...thanks[quote author=Ukutsgp][/quote]

thanks...so what is the distinction between idolatry and veneration...

Rich4god: @op... Go to the book of 1 kings... There were alot of images in the temple built by Solomon... Also, the ark of the convenant has images on top of it... And the bible didnt say that they disobeyed the commandent of God by making such image. Even, the cherub image above the ark was built under God's direction.

I need opinions from different folks of different background and orientation; you need not reply if you don't like the idea of internet conversation..thanks anyway for your input

felixzo1: i will answer you in details latter.but for now what consistute worship to you. in my own words it is given the space of God in your heart to an image,given praise and gory to it, your time attention and dedication to it. secondly if you are a catholic as you claim you wld hv known the answer to your question. maybe u are a sunday only catholic. ask your priest or belong to a group in your parish or school to grow your faith, the internet is not the place to ask this question.

felixzo1: in your own human wisdom they worship idols. thank God you are human not God.

when ur church is littered with carved images of who knows who, that is nt idolatry in ur deluded mind? when u bow, pray and sacrifice to those unknown gods, isn't that idolatry? is rcc even better than a shrine? nonsense. pls dnt provoke me this morning.

@op Bt Dis Issue Has Been Dealt With In Other Thread Here. Ok Open This Link.

www.matt1618.freeyellow.com/images.html

.

Ukutsgp: when ur church is littered with carved images of who knows who, that is nt idolatry in ur deluded mind? when u bow, pray and sacrifice to those unknown gods, isn't that idolatry? is rcc even better than a shrine? nonsense. pls dnt provoke me this morning.

your coments does not change the fact about the true and one universal , catholic and apostolic church. it has existed for generation and will continue for years to come worshiping the one true God.

felixzo1: your coments does not change the fact about the true and one universal , catholic and apostolic church. it has existed for generation and will continue for years to come worshiping the one true God.

where do u people even got the picture of Jesus and Mary from?

Ukutsgp: when ur church is littered with carved images of who knows who, that is nt idolatry in ur deluded mind? when u bow, pray to those unknown gods, isn't that idolatry?

so when in your house,butik,muzium,littered with graven image of ur love ones nd other tins. that is idolatory in ur "clever" mind abi?! smh.when you close ur eyes nd tak a plate of fud in front of u nd pray to the fud is nt idolatory abi? when you knel nd bow in front of your bible,wal.chair,tableetc is nt idolatory abi?.When God Ask Moses In Num21:8, To Cave A Sapent Is Nt Idolatory Abi? King Solo In 1king6:23-28 To Mk Calv Images Of Angels

Ukutsgp: is rcc even better than a shrine? nonsense. pls dnt provoke me this morning.

mr unduluded mind do u knw the meaning of a shrine or temple if u dnt knw my body is the shrine of the holyspirt nd the Church is made up of difrent shrines. my dear you ar the one provoking ur fustrated close minded life by urself nd gues what it wil lead u 2 HATE

Ukutsgp: where do u people even got the picture of Jesus and Mary from?

the early christians.


I think you should one day visit the sophia hagia or the catacombs

Ukutsgp: where do u people even got the picture of Jesus and Mary from?

The Same Place We Got The Book Of Luke,mark Nd Philemon 4rm.

Now Let Me Ask U A Quesion In Luke 9:2(the Story Of The Transfiguration)how Did Peter Knew The Face Of Moses Nd Elija Dat Die Many Yrs Ago?

vest: The Same Place We Got The Book Of Luke,mark Nd Philemon 4rm.

Now Let Me Ask U A Quesion In Luke 9:2(the Story Of The Transfiguration)how Did Peter Knew The Face Of Moses Nd Elija Dat Die Many Yrs Ago?

u hv nt answered my question. who took d photograph of Jesus at that time including that of mary?

felixzo1: your coments does not change the fact about the true and one universal , catholic and apostolic church. it has existed for generation and will continue for years to come worshiping the one true God.

u can continue ur idolatrous worship if u like.

vest:
so when in your house,butik,muzium,littered with graven image of ur love ones nd other tins. that is idolatory in ur "clever" mind abi?! smh.when you close ur eyes nd tak a plate of fud in front of u nd pray to the fud is nt idolatory abi? when you knel nd bow in front of your bible,wal.chair,tableetc is nt idolatory abi?.When God Ask Moses In Num21:8, To Cave A Sapent Is Nt Idolatory Abi? King Solo In 1king6:23-28 To Mk Calv Images Of Angels mr unduluded mind do u knw the meaning of a shrine or temple if u dnt knw my body is the shrine of the holyspirt nd the Church is made up of difrent shrines. my dear you ar the one provoking ur fustrated close minded life by urself nd gues what it wil lead u 2 HATE

pls can u name one apostle that bow and pray before a carved image in d bible? why didn't d bible use shrine? pls God's presence is not in rcc. it is d devil that is now residing there. i pity those who wud nt leave dat dead place now.

Ukutsgp: u can continue ur idolatrous worship if u like.

thank God nobody is forcing you to join us.your noise making will not change a thing about the true church.proudly catholic. forever i wil be.glory to jesus

Ukutsgp: u hv nt answered my question. who took d photograph of Jesus at that time including that of mary?

The Early Christains Did.

Ubenedictus: the early christians.
I think you should one day visit the sophia hagia or the catacombs

Ukutsgp: pls can u name one apostle that bow and pray befor a carved image in d bible?

If The Bible Is To Contain Everytin The Apotle Did, The Whole World Wount B Able To Cary It,
Bt At Least Their Is An Old Testment Saint Dat Did It. Joshua 7:8 Or Was He Also Comiting Idolary?

Ukutsgp: why didn't d bible use shrine? pls God's presence is not in rcc. it is d devi that is now residing there. i pity those who wud nt leave dat dead place

There Are Other Word The Bible Did Nt Use Bt Dat Dose Nt Mean It Can't Be Use E.g Bible,incanate,alter Call Nd Trinity.

How Did U Knw God Presenc Is Nt In His Church Are U Nw Ominipotent? God Is 24hrs Present In His Church This Can Be Confirm 4rm D Wondful Miracles Dat He Perform Dir Even, Jst Last Week I Xperainced 1.
You Shuld Pity Ur Self Cus U Are Fustrated With A Wicked Heart

Your Father(the Accuser Of Our Brethren) Of Rev 12:10 Nd You His Only Beggoten Son Wont Stop Waging War With Her Decendent By Acusing Inocent Pple Of God

Of What They No Nothng Abt

Ukutsgp: u hv nt answered my question. who took d photograph of Jesus at that time including that of mary?

Obviously pictures couldn't have been taken in those days. The statues and icons are equivalent to present day photographs. As suggested try visiting some of the old cathedrals and museums and your faith will truly be alive.

So since Jesus at certain times asked Christians to make images; even the ark had cherub's etc...the images we venerate aint idolatry. Wonder why and what the 2nd commandment meant by its wordings. Anyway, God searches the heart right!!!

Ubenedictus:

in the same scriptures God also tell them to make an image of a cherubim, is that also idolatry?

where in the scriptures and in what context. You can't just lift a text and use it as basis for an argument.

dragunov: where in the scriptures and in what context. You can't just lift a text and use it as basis for an argument.

lol... As if you guys have not been lifting text and making it the basis of your argument.... Go to the book of kings and see for yoursef... The temple of solomon has cherub in almost every pillar and so is the ark of the convenant...