Dragonking: So why the initial lies?

First they said only 17people died, later they said a total of 50.

The truth will come out and shame these workers of iniquity and as for the so called pastor, your cup is getting filled.

Memyselfu2009:



may be i should put it simple for u Jesus christ perform so may miracle heal d sick feed 5000 people make blind see does who can walk he made them walk also lazacrus died for 3day nd he brought back lazarus back to life y cant T B Joshua raise those who died hope u understand now

14: 84, damn, thats a lot of people. When last did SA loss more than 80 people in one day, I remember the sharpville massacre in 1967. I feel sorry for the family of those who have been killed.

why it seems there were only South Africans in that building, we are not hearing about other nationals and Nigerians.

Motlalentoa:

Well, thats coz it was a well planned demolition aimed at crushing to death scores of gullible Saffers.

DieVluit:

1. There will be others.
2. But only South Africa has constantly organisesd to release figures. Secondly, the south africans will be in the majority because...
3. nigerians would not have has to stay in the guesthouse. They would've gone home.
4. So far, evidence suggests shoddy workmanship and unenforced regulations.

Motlalentoa:

1. If there were, don't you think we would've heard about them by now? A week is a long time for one to not notice that their loved ones are missing.

No, we would not have heard about them because our death rate comes directly from South African sources. The high commissioner and trip organisers are only concerned with South Africans. Anyway, you are contradicting yourself. You say "as if the he dodgy guest-house was specifically reserved for them and them alone". So are you saying it was reserved for others or not? And how did it fall on South Africans alone?

How is the house dodgy anyway?

2. ...it seems they were the only people in that building.

Contradicting yourself. It only makes sense that there would be more South Africans in that guest house, but that doesn't mean they were the only ones in there. Why would Nigerians stay in the guest house. There'll be other non-South Africans in the minority. So, let's wait and ee what transpires

3. That really goes without saying. And to be clear, this isn't about "why are there no Nigerian victims?", but about Saffers being the only foreign victims as if the dodgy guest-house was specifically reserved for them and them alone.

Well, you said there are only South African victims because this is a deliberate demolition to kill gullible South Africans.


4. What evidence? Hearsay?

Yesterday, I posted the direct words from engineers and officials investigating the collapse. So, it's not hearsay.

What is hearsay is that South Africans were targeted.

Anyway, until proven otherwise, I stand by my opinion that the building collapsed due to a well planned/executed demolition.

You have advanced an opinion. I quoted investigators. So, you need to decide whether you'll go by emotion or direct evidence that has surfaced to date.

chimajii:

Sometimes I wonder if people of this forum ever make use of their brain before posting comments. If by chance u even know how these things work, your hasty/bothered SELF should know that 1s tragedy strikes, the figures will Rise.
You would have made a valid point if after all things have been done I.e rescue effort and all, and the figure still stood at the initial one.
But clearly isn't the case. Smh for you BusyBodies, who just want to post comment for the sake of posting.

Dragonking:

^^You have not said anything valid or meaniful but rather you just came out here to spew trash and display not only ur ignorance but also ur stiipidity.

boitz: South African Government must appoint commission of inquiry, TB Joshua should face charges of culpable homicide. He caused the death of many People through negligence

chimajii:

So says the douche...I don't word with Things like you..

DieVluit: TB Joshua: When stupidity rules

Our universe hinges on a delicate balance of sanity and stu'pidity. For centuries, scientists have been trying to determine the optimal levels of each. But, like dark matter or why there's no swimming pool creepy that can climb stairs, this equation remains a mystery. What is now certain is that when TB Joshua’s church in Nigeria issued a statement about its catastrophic building collapse, the balance snapped and a fiercely evil geomagnetic storm of stupid shook the planet.

LIKE solar winds from that giant fireball in the sky, stupidity usually washes over us with minimal effect. In extreme cases, we may scream in agony at computer screens or television sets, or even throw a coffee cup across a room, but mostly we continue with our daily lives and allow the equilibrium to return over a quiet dinner or a glass of wine. A weekend usually restores the balance.

The higher the exposure, the more resilient we seem to become. Floyd Shivambu flipping the bird at our deputy president in parliament. Kebby Maphatsoe accusing Thuli Madonsela of being a CIA spy, denying it later, apologising for the comment he claims not to have made and then keeping his job. Jacob Zuma saying there is no Nkandla scandal. Steve Hofmeyr. Agang. The invisible winds just keep on blowing…

But when I read the statement issued by The Synagogue, Church of All Nations, about the building collapse, which killed 67 South Africans, it felt like there was some kind of a cosmic event. A rapture of stu:pid somewhere amongst the stars. I was so furious I felt a little shaky, trying to combine swear words as if that would increase their impact. Journalists tend to be passionate about current affairs, but it takes a lot to reach that point.

The statement began with, “Emmanuel – God is with us”. No problem here. It's a church. What else would it say?Then came a brief and clinical summary of the disaster. The one Jacob Zuma correctly called a “heartbreaking tragedy” in a rare address to the nation this week.

The church then went on to peddle its conspiracy theory about a terrorist attack: “This incident was preceded by the appearance of a strange aircraft which flew very low over the building, four times and then disappeared.”

Not poor construction. Not illegal floors being built. Not greed. But a mysterious aircraft that made a part of the church cave in, somehow.


This nonsense was followed by a denial that the church had blocked emergency crews from rescuing people and was refusing to co-operate with disaster management teams, relief agencies, various governments and, well, pretty much everyone. These were “sad and inaccurate reports” it claimed. Despite on-the-record comments from senior diplomats that the church was closing rank.

Of course, there was also a perfectly logical explanation for the collapse.

“The church views this tragedy as part of an attack on The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations and in particular, Prophet TB Joshua. In due course, God will reveal the perpetrators of this unfortunate tragedy”.

This was an annoying but not unusual message from a church. A call to release responsibility and accept that God works in mysterious ways. To have faith. To overcome and hold on to your beliefs.

Fine. Whatever. But then came the clincher. TB Joshua’s clan felt it necessary to describe those who died as “martyrs of the Kingdom of God”.

Martyrs!

Dozens of people who were crushed to death when a massive (possibly illegal) building sunk down like a sand elephant on top of them. People who had paid a lot of money and flew thousands of kilometres to feel the healing touch of a man who claims to be a prophet, capable of curing anything from cancer to Aids. The same man who sits on the Forbes list of millionaires for selling the equivalent of fresh air.

These people are not martyrs. They are victims of a terrible tragedy, which, in all probability, could have been avoided. And my heart burns for their families. They too are victims.

To spew out a ridiculous conspiracy theory is one thing. Politicians do it all the time. But to then go and describe as “martyrs” those who perished in the name of false hope is insane. In fact, it’s a crime against sanity. A nasty assault on rational thought.

I have never criticised those who believe nor have I questioned their right to faith. I stand firmly for choice, as long as it doesn't impact others.

But in recent months, the dark side of religion has forced its way into our lives. The monsters in black balaclavas have burnt images into our brains of good men pushed down to their knees and savagely beheaded. Or streams of cowering men paraded before being exterminated – shot in the head and pushed into a river, one by one. Or young girls being kidnapped from their homes and schools.

To claim that those who died in the church collapse are martyrs is not only stupid but also evil. They had no choice. They came to be healed or inspired and will now return home in body bags. If their remains are ever found in the rubble.

The magnet of hope is a powerful one. I get it. And those who wield it are usually secretive. Evangelical churches are nothing new… the poor get rich, the ill get healthy, the dying are cured and the lonely find love. In the rush of holy euphoria, the devoted eat grass out in the gardens. Good for them.

The faithful will not stop flocking to these churches. But maybe this will make us all think just a little about what lies beneath.
_DM

onitshaigbo:

I am as sure of Prophet TB Joshua as I'm sure of Jesus. The Prophet has cured HIV/AIDS, cancer, blindness, and has brought thousands if not millions of faithful out of poverty through miracles. If he was not of God, than how can these miracles occur?

If TB Joshua is jailed, then it is religious persecution, and all of Lagos will be made to suffer from God's retribution.

DieVluit: No, we would not have heard about them because our death rate comes directly from South African sources. The high commissioner and trip organisers are only concerned with South Africans. Anyway, you are contradicting yourself. You say "as if the he dodgy guest-house was specifically reserved for them and them alone". So are you saying it was reserved for others or not? And how did it fall on South Africans alone?

How is the house dodgy anyway?

Contradicting yourself. It only makes sense that there would be more South Africans in that guest house, but that doesn't mean they were the only ones in there. Why would Nigerians stay in the guest house. There'll be other non-South Africans in the minority. So, let's wait and ee what transpires.

Well, you said there are only South African victims because this is a deliberate demolition to kill gullible South Africans.

Yesterday, I posted the direct words from engineers and officials investigating the collapse. So, it's not hearsay. What is hearsay is that South Africans were targeted.

You have advanced an opinion. I quoted investigators. So, you need to decide whether you'll go by emotion or direct evidence that has surfaced to date.

Motlalentoa:

Bathong! Are Saffers the only people to have media houses, govt, high commissioner and trip organisers? No! So, the same way we have been hearing about our death toll. We would also hear about others (i.e a Zim politician). For you to keep on saying I'm contradicting myself means you know the reasons I used to form my opinion, not?

What is your problem, exactly? Are you so bitter that you'd rather believe that South Africans were killed on purpose? Obviously it is not only South Africans that have media houses but I refer you to today's Sunday Times for you to see who has been secretive (Nigeria) and who has been open nothwithstanding the lack of cooperation from Nigeria ( South Africa). You'd rather refuse to be empathetic because these people died in Nigeria?

http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2014/09/21/blood-on-their-hands1?fb_action_ids=10152432872900808&fb_action_types=og.recommends

I do not know your reasons but it is obvious that you are contradicting yourself and I have pointed out where the contradictions are.


Uhm...lets see, a 6-storey building reportedly built on a 2-storey foundation collapses into its own footprint in a matter of seconds crushing scores of people to death seems very solid/legit to you, innit?

That sarcastic statement is even more believable than your pie-in-the-sky theory about someone deciding to knock the building over because South Africans were in there. So, sarcasm for sarcasm, I guess my answer would be 'you got that right'.

It's your opinion. So, of course it would make sense to you. Don't know why you keep bringing Nigerians up when I've already said this isn't about them.

It's not an opinion. It is a fact (indicative but a fact nonetheless) that is more than evident in everything that has been reported. The construction was shoddy. The regulations were not enforced. The preacher was greedy. Cut corners. Failed to cooperate. There are suspicions that corruption in the construction industry allowed the addition of two floors without approval. Common sense tells you that's the first place to look for an explanation. Not these baseless conspiracy theories about planes and South Africans being targeted.


An opinion which I stated and will stand by it until proven otherwise - an opinion that I've never asked you or anyone else to endorse. So, I don't get why you're so bothered by it.

More like a baseless rant. I have given you a fairly logical explanation, which you don't even want to investigate because you want to hold on to your baseless opinion. If you post online and are challenged and see it as people being bothered, maybe it's time for you to stop posting.

Engineers? What enigneers? The only people who have so far been quoted in the media are the spokepersons for emergency crews, aid agencies, et al. And no, you posted articles written by reporters whose presentation of the so called "direct words" is influenced by their own opinions - reporters that aren't even in Nigeria. Furthermore, rescue and recovery teams are not invesignators.


Then you need to update yourself because you clearly missed some important reading while you were busy ranting and foaming in the mouth. Here's the latest.

http://news.yahoo.com/nigerian-preacher-under-pressure-over-fatal-church-collapse-092206759.html

If you want the earliest, I can give it to you. You are no different from the "gullible believers" that you criticise. Believing in some pie-in-the-sky theory. You are on the other side of the spectrum that's all. The preacher's followers believe he was attacked. You believe South Africans were attacked. Where's your science? Your logic?

Oh, you have posted no links by the way. Just your "opinion".

DieVluit: TB Joshua: When stupidity rules

Our universe hinges on a delicate balance of sanity and stu'pidity. For centuries, scientists have been trying to determine the optimal levels of each. But, like dark matter or why there's no swimming pool creepy that can climb stairs, this equation remains a mystery. What is now certain is that when TB Joshua’s church in Nigeria issued a statement about its catastrophic building collapse, the balance snapped and a fiercely evil geomagnetic storm of stupid shook the planet.

LIKE solar winds from that giant fireball in the sky, stupidity usually washes over us with minimal effect. In extreme cases, we may scream in agony at computer screens or television sets, or even throw a coffee cup across a room, but mostly we continue with our daily lives and allow the equilibrium to return over a quiet dinner or a glass of wine. A weekend usually restores the balance.

The higher the exposure, the more resilient we seem to become. Floyd Shivambu flipping the bird at our deputy president in parliament. Kebby Maphatsoe accusing Thuli Madonsela of being a CIA spy, denying it later, apologising for the comment he claims not to have made and then keeping his job. Jacob Zuma saying there is no Nkandla scandal. Steve Hofmeyr. Agang. The invisible winds just keep on blowing…

But when I read the statement issued by The Synagogue, Church of All Nations, about the building collapse, which killed 67 South Africans, it felt like there was some kind of a cosmic event. A rapture of stu:pid somewhere amongst the stars. I was so furious I felt a little shaky, trying to combine swear words as if that would increase their impact. Journalists tend to be passionate about current affairs, but it takes a lot to reach that point.

The statement began with, “Emmanuel – God is with us”. No problem here. It's a church. What else would it say?Then came a brief and clinical summary of the disaster. The one Jacob Zuma correctly called a “heartbreaking tragedy” in a rare address to the nation this week.

The church then went on to peddle its conspiracy theory about a terrorist attack: “This incident was preceded by the appearance of a strange aircraft which flew very low over the building, four times and then disappeared.”

Not poor construction. Not illegal floors being built. Not greed. But a mysterious aircraft that made a part of the church cave in, somehow.


This nonsense was followed by a denial that the church had blocked emergency crews from rescuing people and was refusing to co-operate with disaster management teams, relief agencies, various governments and, well, pretty much everyone. These were “sad and inaccurate reports” it claimed. Despite on-the-record comments from senior diplomats that the church was closing rank.

Of course, there was also a perfectly logical explanation for the collapse.

“The church views this tragedy as part of an attack on The Synagogue, Church Of All Nations and in particular, Prophet TB Joshua. In due course, God will reveal the perpetrators of this unfortunate tragedy”.

This was an annoying but not unusual message from a church. A call to release responsibility and accept that God works in mysterious ways. To have faith. To overcome and hold on to your beliefs.

Fine. Whatever. But then came the clincher. TB Joshua’s clan felt it necessary to describe those who died as “martyrs of the Kingdom of God”.

Martyrs!

Dozens of people who were crushed to death when a massive (possibly illegal) building sunk down like a sand elephant on top of them. People who had paid a lot of money and flew thousands of kilometres to feel the healing touch of a man who claims to be a prophet, capable of curing anything from cancer to Aids. The same man who sits on the Forbes list of millionaires for selling the equivalent of fresh air.

These people are not martyrs. They are victims of a terrible tragedy, which, in all probability, could have been avoided. And my heart burns for their families. They too are victims.

To spew out a ridiculous conspiracy theory is one thing. Politicians do it all the time. But to then go and describe as “martyrs” those who perished in the name of false hope is insane. In fact, it’s a crime against sanity. A nasty assault on rational thought.

I have never criticised those who believe nor have I questioned their right to faith. I stand firmly for choice, as long as it doesn't impact others.

But in recent months, the dark side of religion has forced its way into our lives. The monsters in black balaclavas have burnt images into our brains of good men pushed down to their knees and savagely beheaded. Or streams of cowering men paraded before being exterminated – shot in the head and pushed into a river, one by one. Or young girls being kidnapped from their homes and schools.

To claim that those who died in the church collapse are martyrs is not only stupid but also evil. They had no choice. They came to be healed or inspired and will now return home in body bags. If their remains are ever found in the rubble.

The magnet of hope is a powerful one. I get it. And those who wield it are usually secretive. Evangelical churches are nothing new… the poor get rich, the ill get healthy, the dying are cured and the lonely find love. In the rush of holy euphoria, the devoted eat grass out in the gardens. Good for them.

The faithful will not stop flocking to these churches. But maybe this will make us all think just a little about what lies beneath.
_DM

Centrifude:

I couldn't have said it better myself, I wish more people opened their eyes to the realities of this world, and stopped holding on to all these thoughts of false hope and salvation.

I strongly agree with you on the point that calling all those victims Martyrs is an insult to them and their memory, and I'm surprise by the many people I know who are follows of that church, who believe that nonsense about an Air-plane being the cause of the problem, its amazing how very intelligent people would push all forms of logic aside and choose to defend a ridiculous conspiracy theory of a man and his merry band of follows, people who have no architectural knowledge or know anything about construction.

They defend him with pride, just because he claims to be Gods gate way to humanity.

Its just sad that more people are still flocking to that place.

Funjosh:

Thanks for calling me a fool, foolish Boy