candy:
This may be purely your personal take on this, but God still works miracles through science. ..Paul planted and Apollo watered, but God gave increase.

The success of 'purely scientific' processes still depend on God. The failure rate of Ivf is higher than the success rate, but God made your friend's case a success.

...let God hand off science please! If he wants to perform miracle let him do it in a clear incontrovertible way e.g let TB Joshua go and raise all those unlucky victims he killed in his shop ( church) by merely laying hands on them!!

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i see it's almost impossible for you to explain how you arrived at your position.Next time, be more concrete.

How i arrived at my position was clear , you it was who refused to see the obvious.

Oduduwaboy:
...let God hand off science please! If he wants to perform miracle let him do it in a clear incontrovertible way e.g let TB Joshua go and raise all those unlucky victims he killed in his shop ( church) by merely laying hands on them!!

Your mind seem to be made up already, it seems your question here is just to mock God.

Just for the records though: God can't hands off science because God created everybody; scientists and their knowledge of science inclusive. He can choose to perform miracles in anyway He deems fit.
I really am not here to defend God; He can and will defend Himself. God can't be mocked my brover.

Having a discussion with christians is like talking to a herd of Cows. They worship an imaginary leader.

Oduduwaboy:
How i arrived at my position was clear , you it was who refused to see the obvious.

It's unclear totally, how you arrived at the position that IVF contradicts God's Almightiness.

candy:

Your mind seem to be made up already, it seems your question here is just to mock God.

Just for the records though: God can't hands off science because God created everybody; scientists and their knowledge of science inclusive. He can choose to perform miracles in anyway He deems fit.
I really am not here to defend God; He can and will defend Himself. God can't be mocked my brover.

Sorry . Didnt mean to offend you but i got to say what i know. See, science is a process of continuous enquiry & counter enquiry while God is an idea/ person you are not suppose to ever question. The two concepts are like parallel lines that never meet, if you think deeply enough about them! If God could speak the world into being as he 'did' in Genesis, why does he now have to go through the tedious route of science in order to fulfil the prayers of one of his little children?

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It's unclear totally, how you arrived at the position that IVF contradicts God's Almightiness.

God 'spoke' the limitless universe into being ( that is the claim); why cant he speak the word and make his little hand-maiden pregnant as he did while creating the universe? has he changed? IVF was developed through several years of intense work not by divine revelation. Then, you must note that the success rate of IVF is the same among muslim, christians, pagans & Atheists ; does this get across a message to you or not?

Oduduwaboy:
Sorry . Didnt mean to offend you but i got to say what i know. See, science is a process of continuous enquiry & counter enquiry while God is an idea/ person you are not suppose to ever question. The two concepts are like parallel lines that never meet, if you think deeply enough about them! If God could speak the world into being as he 'did' in Genesis, why does he now have to go through the tedious route of science in order to fulfil the prayers of one of his little children?

Oh no! You didn't offend me, at all. You know, I'm actually a Philosopher, so I understand why people will feel this way. I can't impose my belief on you, but I have looked at the concept of God both as a philosopher and a christian; He is surely all powerful.

When Jesus spat on the floor and mixed it with saliva to open the blind man's eyes, He could have just commanded his eyes to open.

When God commanded the Isrealites to slaughter white lambs, mark lintel and door with the blood and eat with their belts and shoes on in a hurry and that when He sees the blood He'll pass over them, He could have just passed over them without making them go through all the stress since He had the power to just know the houses of Egyptians. But I believe it was a lesson in obedience.

Sometimes we learn through our travails, not because He doesn't care. His ways are just not our ways sir.

Oduduwaboy: My friend finally has a baby via IVF (in-vitro fertilization) after 10 years of church wedding.
There is no kind of fasting & prayers he did not partake in. He gave all sorts of offerings, tithes etc He climbed all the mountains in faith. Nothing. Then he got tired at age 38 and wife was 36 years of age. He started attending an assisted reproduction technique clinic and within 2 years finally got the 'fruit of the womb' .
He now believes that left to 'jehovah' he will still be waiting and perhaps never have a child ( he used donor eggs). The wife named the child Oluwaseyi but my friend was not quite happy with that name; understandably i guess. So my friend has been asking me ' How do you bring up a child without a god to fear or how do you appoint a god for a child to worship when obviously no god was of help in 'procuring' him? He his slowly losing religion but can not yet label himself.
Dearest, loving, sweet nairalanders i come to you with an open heart, which god do you think deserves the worship of my friends baby when he eventually comes of age?

My dear do not relent

God way is not our way and he knows why

Tell him to think if its him that buy the air he breathes

Oduduwaboy:
God 'spoke' the limitless universe into being ( that is the claim); why cant he speak the word and make his little hand-maiden pregnant as he did while creating the universe? has he changed? IVF was developed through several years of intense work not by divine revelation. Then, you must note that the success rate of IVF is the same among muslim, christians, pagans & Atheists ; does this get across a message to you or not?

candy has explained to you, hope you now understand? God is not limited, He can use more than one way as He pleases. He can use human beings to protect as He did for Paul, He can use angels like He did for Elisha. He can use IVF as He did for your friend. Children are from God, He doesn't give only christians children. His goodness is to all His creation.

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candy has explained to you, hope you now understand? God is not limited, He can use more than one way as He pleases. He can use human beings to protect as He did for Paul, He can use angels like He did for Elisha. He can use IVF as He did for your friend. Children are from God, He doesn't give only christians children. His goodness is to all His creation.

Candy really tried. Am sure she is a true christian sister! But i dont like it when christians appropriate the efforts of other people and ascribe it to their god. See, if god wanted to prove he is the one behind IVF , then we should be doing IVF in church and not in expensive fertility clinics. Why should god allow one to pay tithes & offerings & other givings in faith for 9 years to his church only to still have to go and pay N1.5million for two cycles of IVF and you still think it is right for god or whatever to claim the glory? why allow the heartaches for 9 years ? why did the pastors still keep urging him to have faith in God even when he had already registered at the fertility clinic? i laugh at the excuses people will make to sustain the god idea!!!!!

[quote author=tonychristopher]


My dear do not relent

God way is not our way and he knows why

Tell him to think if its him that buy the air he breathes [/quote

well air should be free since no one begged to be created!

Atheists and their fascination with the Christian God.
They read everythng about him.
Pose questions to christians about him,just trynaknow wat makes him tick.
Then they try to discredit him by meticulously combing thru his word ,life of christians and d bible.

Yet say there is no God!
Face it guys this God spooks ya.
Yet to meet an atheist here who tore thru the quran or torah to discredit islam/judaism.


Op,your story is cheap fiction throw it away.

Besides marraige aint about children. Theyre nice to hav but
if they dont come so wat?

please don't forget that God formed the sperm cell and egg cell used for the IVF. If its not God, let any scientist come up with any chemical compound or mixture that will replace the natural sperm cells and egg cells from humans. please fear God.

Oduduwaboy:
Candy really tried. Am sure she is a true christian sister! But i dont like it when christians appropriate the efforts of other people and ascribe it to their god. See, if god wanted to prove he is the one behind IVF , then we should be doing IVF in church and not in expensive fertility clinics. Why should god allow one to pay tithes & offerings & other givings in faith for 9 years to his church only to still have to go and pay N1.5million for two cycles of IVF and you still think it is right for god or whatever to claim the glory? why allow the heartaches for 9 years ? why did the pastors still keep urging him to have faith in God even when he had already registered at the fertility clinic? i laugh at the excuses people will make to sustain the god idea!!!!!

Efforts would be worthless and frustrated if God doesn't permit it. God is not limited to church building.

The bible says all good things came from the father .
So,tht baby is from God.
However, not directly.
After all non christians concieve too without prayg etc. But God creates d spirit of d baby, and if d baby is aborted or dies young, it returns to heaven. God is still involved.

Your fictitious case is ridden with unsupported assumptions.

1. That God is moved by tears/pity.
Is he? You have to b sure of the assumptions you act on else u'll b terribly dissapointed.

2. God owes your friend something?
Entitlement mentallity.
Does He?


3. Prayer is the answer.

It's typical for christian to base their answer on their prayg prowess and longevity in prayer.
While prayer is essential .
The word prayer warrior, isnt even in the bible!
It is unscriptural to advocate prayer power to exclusion of other things.

4.
God needs to be appeased/cajoled/ to get something from him.

The offerings your friend was giving was for what? To earn spiritual credits.
Is this assumption true?
Its sad many christians hav been brain washed with these junk.
You see them begging like beggars. No confidence before God. No assurance. Begging begging begging cuz of this assuption.
Preachers preach and milk under this assumption.
Give a mountain movg offering!
Dont let God rest! Poo and bullsh*t.

Your friend operated under this assumption.

5. God has to twisted in the arm or bothered till He gives in.

Anoda wrong assumption whole ministries operate under.
Storm the gates of heaven?
This assumption is God is keeping back the object desired,the blessing, but like a bee if you nag him hard enuff outta exasperation He'll let go and give u ur desire.
Long fasting,long intense demandg prayers etc.
Same misguided assumption.

6. God didnt answer the prayer

the basis for this is tht they didnt see the result.
Som prayers never arrive cuz of doubt and discouragement but the answer might hav been dispatched.
When som ppl stand bf God they'll b suprised at how close they were to getting results.

7. Prayer is the only weapon.

If only they had broken out in shouts of praise ,while the the prayer seemed unanswered and the situation unyieldg,havg done all they had known to do (praying), they wudve seen a mighty collapse of the obstacle.
Note how the wall collapsed when the Children of Isreal praised God on d seventh day.
What really happened?
God shook the earth. God responds to praise.

Note what happened when, paul and silas praised God in prison?
They praised so loud the prisoners heard them. What happened? The prison was shaken. The doors opened. The chains fell off.
Compare this with prayer (and petitioning) for peter when He was in prison.
When jehoshaphat praised God ,
he only arrived the battle scene to gather war loot.
All his enemies were dead on arrival.
An angel was sent to him.
Prayer gets an angel.( a technician).
praise gets the CEO himself.
And this CEO loves to make grand entry!
You see somthng about the nature of God here.
He shook an entire facility,
to free just 2 suspects.
All chains fell off.
All prison doors opened.
But the angel sent to peter,
went to d exact cell,freed the target,brought him out of d facility. Returned to base.

Angels operate on specific instructions - like u.s marines.
God ,answerable to know one can b excessive as HE pleases.
E.g creating many planets,
when earth is all man needs!
Filling peter's boat to sinking point.
Giving Job,after his travails,the most beautiful daughters in the land,as against just giving him daughters.

If God directly intervened in ur friends case, you bet he'd have had a child/children that exceeded his expectation.

Bottom line: praise is also a weapon of warfare. Not only prayer. Praise also takes the mind of the praiser of the problem which is therapeutic on its own.


In essence, wrong assumptions are mental strongholds that war against the truth tht produces results.
Now,your friend wants to quit God. because he wrongly assumes, God not him is where the fault lies.
And God is against him!
Wrong thinking- wrong assumption - wrong foundation- wrong action- inconsistent results.
(mostly failure)

Hmmm. All i see here are pidgeons strutting on a chess- board!

Oduduwaboy: Hmmm. All i see here are pidgeons strutting on a chess- board!

typical atheists who can't reason a religion outta a paper bag wanting to dissect it.
Pre concieved notions and blind accussations is all u guyz hav got.

Worship the God of your ancestors. As a Yoruba, you should get the child educated in the ways of our ancestors, that's the Omoluabi way
Olodumare bless your friend and the child

No God deserve worship.... Because it's man's desire to know God...

But your friend must acknowledge his heritage/lineage..without that the baby might as well be a science project ..

Why would you want to indoctrinate the kid in the first place
would it make him/her a better person or the opposite?...

davien: Why would you want to indoctrinate the kid in the first place
would it make him/her a better person or the opposite?...

Why would you want to expose a kid to any knowledge at all?

Oduduwaboy:

This is just a DEAD, RELIGIOUS mind comparable only to the Boko Haram spirit!!!! Please sir, go back to your church to collect more tithes from the gullible ones!

u really dead...

Give to God all Glory.
No reservation.